Sunesis

Cool thoughts Eyes.

I think many people in TWI had "longsuits" they were very, very good at, but TWI's doctrine knocked it out of them, or got them to doubt, or got them to totally disbelieve and say - shove it. For example, Notinkansas, you say people in your family "know" things, and you did too, but probably not as much as when you were in TWI. What I see is maybe you and others in your family were very good at operating "Word of Knowledge" - of course, not knowing what it was, but it blessed those in your family.

Or, there were people who didn't talk much, but when they did everyone listened because they usually had a solution to a problem, or a deep thought that blessed a lot of people - Word of Wisdom.

Lots of other examples. There were many people who really did build up and bless the body, in various ways, but sadly, most of them did not make it to the "top." They were driven out eventually.

Here's my last angel story.

It was about 10:00 on a hot summer night in Manhattan, 1993. I had met a friend for a drink up on Broadway and was walking a few blocks home to my apartment right near Riverside Drive - the upper west side, lovely neighborhood, people out all hours of the day and night, hanging out, walking the dogs, etc. The building on the corner is having some work done on it and has scaffolding going up the side. I go under the little walkway they've made. Its like a little tunnel.

I'm getting near the end and I see these two homeless guys, who have come up from the river coming towards me as I'm almost out of the tunnel. One tall, one short. I know something's coming. I just thought to myself, "Father, help." I knew if I tried to run, they'd catch me, plus, I just got new Doc Marten hightops and they weren't broken in yet and there was no way I could really run in those. So, I looked them in the eye, and walked right between them and kept going. there is not a soul on the street. Nowhere, no one. I hear them start whispering. I hear them running, I turn and look back and they are coming for me. I run, but the big one cuts me off. I back up to a car with a little tree on my left. Across is an alley. I have decided I will hang on to the tree come hell or high water if they decide to drag me down the alley. The tall one says, give us your money 'darlin. I put my hand in my pocket...

All of a sudden we hear yelling. This guy is running down the sidewalk at us in full force, yelling, stop it, stop it. We were all kind of mesmerized by him. He had on pale blue jeans, a blue jacket, blond hair and I could not stop looking at his eyes - the most incredible blue eyes as he was coming towards us. The muggers looked at me, we looked back at the man and they fled. The guy comes running towards me. He says, did they pull a knife on you? I said no. He said, go call 911, tell them officer needs assistance as he kept running after them.

So, I run up to my apartment, they tell me to wait outside, the police car if they catch them will bring them by for my id. I wait and wait, it never comes. Now of course, the street is full of people. My best friend's boyfriend was a cop in that precinct. I told her about it and told her to tell BT to thank that officer. BT told her, there is no blond blue-eyed officer working in this precinct. Hmm...

I think for some reason, God has sent angels in life-threatening situations. We are told they are ministers to us who are heirs of salvation. I have a feeling someday, when we know all, we will be absolutely amazed what was done by them for us. I find it interesting we are told, one aspect of our heavenly calling when we are new creations in a new body, is that we will rule over them. I do believe we have all of us, dealt with them "unawares." Even you Mythreecents :)

It was my interim year in Brooklyn, NY, 1977-78. It was winter and NYC got hit with one of the biggest blizzards in years. They let us go early from work (I worked in Manhattan). The snow was really coming down, I luckily managed to get on the last B train going to Brooklyn. I had my little pocket bible and had been reading that, thankful to be able to make it home. I wasn't from Brooklyn and knew my area, but its a very large borough and did not know the rest of it.

Suddenly, the loudspeaker comes on. They are stopping the train. No more trains at all, everything's becoming snowed in. Hmm. I get up to look at the map, with a bunch of other people. I'm somewhere in the middle of Brooklyn, have no clue where I am, have no idea how I'll get home and it looks like a very long walk ahead in the blizzard. Then, I feel a tap on my shoulder. This sweet little old man says to me, do you know where you are? I said no. He says, do you know how to get home? I said no. He says, I live in Bensonhurst, follow me (Bensonhurst was the section I also lived in). We left the subway, walked a few blocks and there was a bus. We got on. I think it was the last bus running. As I said, it was a couple of blocks away, I'm in a strange neighborhood, and I did not know the Brooklyn bus system. I never would have found it. We are almost the only people on it. As we are riding and I watch the snow come down, it dawned on me, this is an angel - whoa. I looked at him and said, may I ask you a question? You're going to think I'm crazy. He says, sure. I said, are you an angel? He looks at me, laughs and says, no, I'm just an old Jew, as he's laughing. Finally, he says, here's your stop. I thanked him and got off. I was on my block.

Now, this guy picks me out of a group of people, is from my neighborhood, Bensonhurst which all italian, and knows exactly where the last bus is that's running. I also know, angels appear in context with the situation. In other words, I think God sends them and they blend into the surroundings so as not to cause alarm. The city was stopped dead for almost a week and it took a few more for it to dig out. I really believe it was an angel that got me home.

I have one more incident I'll share in a bit.

Ahh Newlife - there it was, you nailed it. Ordination - the carrot on the stick for the men of the corps in TWI.

If you were faithful, went corps, and ran lots of classes, you too could be ordained. From there, maybe be a limb or region leader, or the ultimate pinnacle - coordinate the corps.

You don't know how many young men I met in the corps, whose great goal and drive was ordination. It was definitely the reward VP used to keep his young men in TWI.

I sometimes think it should have been the women being ordained instead of some of the men they ordained. For example, in her book, Kris was probably the one who should have been ordained. She had done wonderful things for other people and teaching them the Word through years.

I know there were men who married certain ordained women, just so they too would be ordained. Sad.

Eyes - LOL - yes, we were standing still, weren't we? Except, I never did find my "groove" in TWI - never did quite fit within the nine dots - as DM used to tell me.

I hope others will read this book too. Her account wasn't an exception - I think it was quite common of what many people went through in TWI - I think many people will be able to relate to a lot of what's in there. Maybe not the same experiences, but the way of thinking, the way people thought. The way TWI taught us to think.

Avondale, I am so sorry to read about your sister, I love my little sister and would have been in total despair if something like that had happened in my family.

Newlife, thanks for sharing. Oddly enough, it was attending ACOA meetings after I left HQ and went on the field, that really opened my eyes and gave me great deliverance from the TWI mindset.

Avondale, I don't think VP "planned" for it. As we've discussed here before on this forum, his PFAL class was really B.G. Leonard's class, which after B.G. let VP teach his class, VP changed the name, copyrighted it, and started teaching it as his own.

So, it was the Word being taught that changed us, but it wasn't coming from the "heart" of our "teacher" - VP, he was teaching someone else's class. That's why the dichotomy - how could the "man of God" be such a prick in daily life when offstage? Simple, I don't think he really believed what he taught. I think he was very surprised how his ministry grew. Also, it was the hippie days, the sexual revolution was in full swing, and a lot of those early hippie girls from CA and the midwest, those 18, 19, in their twenties, it was probaby no big deal to do it with the "Man of God." But, the younger kids who grew up under VP's ministry, like Kris, who were only 13, 14 - young teens, had to be eased and manipulated into it. He was a predator, pure and simple.

I think the opening dialog in Kris' book does a great job of explaining it. Talking about the beginning of her involvement in TWI, a counsellor says: It must have been terrible. Kris replies: "No. It was beautiful, really. Glorious. Like riding the crest of a tsunami, like nothing any of us had ever felt. We were all swept away by it.

And, really, that's kind of the way it was.

As she then says,"then it changed, then it started to destroy us one by one."

I believe most of the people VP got in TWI were already born again. One thing the boomer parents did do, was take us little kids to Sunday School. As we got older, we quit going. But I think most of VP's followers were already born again as kids. Sure, many did get born again in PFAL, but as we've also read, many did fake SITing. I think many didn't get born again.

Many of us saw red flags, and dismissed them, because it was "the Word, the Word, nothing but the Word." Where would we go, we were the only ministry that had "the Word"? I know for me, it was easy to dismiss things as just a weird, one time thing, they really didn't mean that, a leader would never do that... I know for me, it took being on staff, seeing TWI up close, to realize, hey, just as most people who went in the corps had strange, dysfunctional backgrounds, now it was being run by the same people. I started to see what a bunch of petty, idiots were running the place. During the ROA, there was an incident - the one tiny little straw that broke the camel's back. So, I just told them, right before corps placements, here's where I'm going, I don't care if you like it or not, give me a corps assignment or not, I'm going on the field, I'm outta here...

I agree Avondale, TWI offered us a safe haven in those chaotic times. Kris made another wonderful statement in her book when she said, "They [her parents] raised me liberally, without doctrine or structures...but their lack of directedness had an unintended consequence. I looked for another anchor, one stronger and steadier than myself or my parents."

That to me so beautifully sums up why so many of us got into TWI. We were without structure (me and most of my friends anyway) and were looking for an anchor - TWI, the Word, offered that safe harbor.

I finally finished her book. I found it excellent. I recommend it. She shares her thoughts, what was going on in her mind the whole time. For anyone wondering, what happened????!!! How did we end up there? She articulates is wonderfully.

One other thing she said interested me. I know in many religions, especially in ancient times, you had the "mystery" religions. Where the regular people were taught one thing, but the special "initiates" were initiated into the deepest mysteries - only a select few could handle it. After he finally gets her in bed after explaining grace, etc. she writes "the Doctor has ushered me nto the deeper mystery of the Word, where grace reigns supreme.... I am initiated." The great depths of the Word, according to VP - adultry is good, because grace reigns supreme. We can do anything - because grace reigns supreme.

Does not Paul in Romans and other places say, do not use grace as an excuse to sin? I just found it interesting - for the "top" most "spiritual" people in TWI, the great deep, secret wasn't Christ - it was sex. It was all about sex.

I just started her book. I grew up in Rye, then moved to Larchmont. New Rochelle, Larchmont, Mamaroneck, Rye and other towns are all right next to each other on the Boston Post Road which goes up to Boston. They are NYC "bedroom" boroughs. In Larchmont, we were 20 minutes away from the City by train. I was also a "groovy" Christian of Rye.

What astounds me so far is her description of what it was like in NY back then during the "hippie" revolution. Like her, I too had an alcoholic father, many of us kids did. I think being "organization men" of the '50s, doing their rote corporate jobs, unwinding in the drinking cars on the train on the way home from work in the City, took a toll on many men.

We were little kids, so many of us raised ourselves, dad drunk when he was home, mom, distant - so many of us kids were on our own at a young age. We did cut school and hop the train into the city with our buddies to hang in Tompkins Square park, our older brothers and sisters did drive us to the city, we did basically what we wanted. Many kids rarely saw their parents 'cause the parents were always out, traveling - that one kid's house that was being renovated, parents in Spain - definitely happened alot. We travelled in little gangs.

Oh yeah, the boys did get us girls too. Whether it was walking home from school as a 7 year old and being dragged in the woods and molested by the older neighborhood boys, later as a teenager being drug into the new houses being built and forced to do things, or avoiding the neighborhood bully - there was always one, or my best friend's older brother who would lock us into the bathroom together. When I told his mom, why, her little Brian would never do that... Kids are so much more protected nowadays in many ways.

I guess my point is, we were so ripe for the pickin'. Here came the father figure with the offer of the godly family who really loved you. Hanging at someone's apartment in the City, but this time as part of a loving group, with the older kids - really, it just didn't get any cooler.

What an amazing intro, she captures the times and feel so well. We were so young, on our own, searching.

I ended up with TWI because of one of my high school buddies. But everytime I see a Hare Krishna, I think, there but for the grace of God go I. Hare Krishna would come to my high school, I loved them, they were wonderful people. My mom gave me permission to go to their temple in Brooklyn. I forgot to get directions - there was no internet back then to look them up with. Plus, I couldn't get any of my friends to go with me. I have a feeling, if I had made it to the temple, I would have become a devout Krishna member. I'm looking forward to reading more. This first part just really hit home. It was so incredibly, eerily similar to my situation.

From what I was told when in, VP had no problem with women with women - if they could handle it of course. We also know the male's number 1 fantasy is girl-on-girl action. That's why 3some was no big deal. Plus, its not really talked about in the Bible. So, VP didn't really much care. Although, he would publically say he didn't like it, but he sure kept some very obvious ones and their girls around with no problem. There were several, what I considered female couples, but, in TWI, as long as you were discreet and no one caught you, thus, they couldn't "prove" anything, you could pretty much do anything you wanted.

Now, VP hated male homosexuals, NOT because of the act itself, but because it put one man of the couple in a "submissive" position. VP believed no man should ever be put in a "submissive" position like that - it feminized him. I have a feeling, for a male, as long as he was "dominant," VP didn't care what one did.

With VP, it was about power. His abuse of women was about domination and power, and her humiliation. He had no love for the particular woman per se. When he got tired of her, he just passed her on.

I think it is Abi. The OT - Ezekiel, Zechariah, Isaiah, etc. all prophecy is about the coming King and Kingdom. Most of Christ's talking here on earth was regarding the coming Kingdom. The 12 Apostles preached the coming Kingdom. They did not preach "Paul's Gospel." Paul was an Apostle of Christ sent to the Gentiles - the one body, new creation as was revealed to Paul, not the 12.

God sent his Word, the prophets, Christ, and the 12 apostles to Israel. The 12 were Israel's "last call" so to speak. The reason Peter, in Acts on the day of Pentecost quoted Joel's prophecy regarding the last days about the Kingdom to the Jews who were gathered in the Temple, was because he knew that if all Israel turned to Christ, their Messiah, the Kingdom would come, his rule would commence, the Kingdom would start. It was years later, at the meeting with the 12 Apostles and the Apostle Paul in Acts, that James perceived God was doing a new work with the Gentiles through Paul and said they did not have to follow the law. Once the temple was destroyed in 70 AD and Jeruselem sacked, the time had passed for Israel's repentence. Yet, we are told, in the future ALL of Israel will turn to Jesus, their Messiah and He shall return to earth and they shall be his Priests and Kings on earth.

I believe, if all of Israel had accepted that Jesus was the Messiah, you would have gone right into the Kingdom in Revelation. He would be the Judge, unrighteousness would have been cleansed, the creation restored, the curse removed, and, as prophesied in the OT, 10 men would grab onto a Jewish man's skirt and say, let's go with him to the temple, we know God is with him (that's a wonderful verse, I can find it if you like - I'm going by memory now).

When I look at the whole Bible, the whole OT is prophecy, the Messiah comes and his mission is to call Israel and tell them their King has come, then the end in Revelation, the Kingdom - it really does come. Almost the whole Bible is about this topic. As God said in the OT, I will tell you what I will do before I do it. He has told us. The one body, the church, those born again of both Jew and Gentile is a totally new creation with a different calling and different sphere of function and takes up a very small part of the Bible - it truly is grace. We were called in Gen 1:1 and will continue in Rev. 22:22 - i.e, in eternity.

Excie, he was a predator, pure and simple. He knew what to look for - in the person's body language, actions - like like gay people have what they call "gaydar." They can tell if someone's gay because they know what to look for. For VP, I also don't believe it was about sex. He was a misogynist - he did not like, and had no respect for women. The sex was about domination, power, and humiliation. That's what gratified him. The only exception I ever saw with him was if a woman was older and intelligent. If he felt she was very smart, he had a grudging respect. I remember before a meeting one niight on staff, he casually went on about El*** Whi**** - what a smart, smart woman she was, how there were very few like her in TWI, etc. That is the only time I ever heard him speak nicely of one. The younger women he just considered his toys to dominate. Then he passed them on.

I think he also knew who not to mess with. My relative's husband who was a region leader, early corps, was never involved. He could not believe VP would do something like that. I'm not surprised Socks was never "included" in the inner circle. VP wasn't stupid in that way, I really believe he knew which married men would tolerate it and which wouldn't. He probably did a few subtle "tests" where the male never even knew he was being tested.

It really was a total "lockbox," inner circle type thing. It wasn't until after he died people felt more freer to break the confidence they had sworn with an oath to him they'd never repeat.

I also find God's relationship with Moses fascinating too - Amazing. Abraham, Moses - those men's direct relationship with Jehovah is wonderful to read.

I believe, just as God has his "host of heaven" in the angels in the heavens, that Israel was meant to be God's Holy "host" on earth. There's an interesting passage in the OT, I can't remember where now, where God lets other angels have the peoples of the rest of the world but calls Israel his. They were holy. He made his covenant with them. Moses calls his people to him, but also goes into great detail as to what will happen to Holy Israel if they break the covenant and worship other gods.

They were meant to be the light of the world, God's host on earth, God's Holy people who would lead the rest of the world (gentiles) to God and be the priests of the Most High.

Christ came and was the ultimate sacrifice, he was sent to Israel to call them back. He was rejected. I finally realized that the 12 apostles were sent to Israel for a reason. Not to the Gentiles. Paul was the Apostle of the Gentiles. The 12 apostles were the "last call" so to speak to Israel. Return to Christ, your Messiah has come and they spent years proving his prophecies from the OT. I believe if Israel had accepted him, the Messiah would have come in Glory, the judgment and cleansing the world of unrighteousness and spiritual evil would happen and the "Lord's Day" would have commenced.

It did not happen.

But, the good news is - it will though. The Messiah is coming for Israel in His glory, the Jewish people will realize who he was and mourn over him as a son for what happened to him. I love the Book of Revelation - the earth is righteous, it is superabounding, the Jewish nation once again is Holy and rules with Christ over the men of the earth, their mission finally fulfilled.

At the end, Heavenly Jerusalem - the real, true temple, that Israel had made on earth, which was the "type" or a shadow reflection of what was really in heaven, comes down - it is magnificent, with a tribe's name written over each gate, and the names of the 12 apostles written on its foundation.

Genesis - Paradise lost, man's spirit - God's "image" - lost. Revelation - Paradise regained, God's "image" restored to man, the woman calls mankind to eat of the tree of life. Israel, the Holy Priests and Kings of Christ restored. What a magnificant book of hope for Israel.

I've digressed... What was the question again?

Very interesting article David.

Krysalis, sounds like you raised a wonderful son and instilled fine values in him. We are told that God will restore the years the locusts have eaten - I'm so glad to hear he's doing well with a wonderful wife. What a wonderful man he was to confront them.

Thank you for sharing.

Waysider, which site? HC?

Hi Belle, how are you? Thanks for the ideas. Sometimes I get grumpy, I think I was when I started this thread.

I would never want tell people they can't post unless they are believers or agree with me, I want all people to put their 2 cents in. I think maybe in just more agreeable ways, because believe it or not, I do learn, and have sometimes changed my mind, by what others have posted here over the years. I think some of the people who still do believe have been a bit intimidated by those who don't lately and just don't really post anymore. I guess that's my point, civility, because religious beliefs are so deeply held and personal.

Hi Abi. I understand what you're saying. Sometimes I need a break from boards (not just this one) too. I do enjoy your writings on the Jewish faith you post.

Geisha, interesting food for thought. Question, what did Tertillian say - what was Corinth like?

I know from reading Augustine's City on a Hill and his descriptions of Rome, how he used to love the coluseum (before he was born again), his description of the blood lust it eventually engendered upon the people who went to the games, and the results were fascinating. His descriptions of the outdoor plays on the street corners about one god or another and the public sex that was everywhere in the worshipping of them that went on in the plays, all was amazing.

People always say this country's going to hell in a handbasket, but compared to Rome and other cultures, we're chaste goody two shoes. In many ways, under the myriad gods, life was short, brutal and nasty. Of course, when Rome did fall, and they were po'ed their gods hadn't protected them, then of course, it was Jesus' fault. I've digressed... So, tell me about tertillian and corinth please.

Lucy, I am sickened and horrified by what you went through, and am glad the bastard is dead and cannot ever hurt you again.

But, you are also a newbie here. People did tell and were immediately escorted off grounds, labeled possessed, etc.

We didn't have the internet back then, if you did tell, no one believed you. When you returned home, you were ostracized.

Read the front page, do some searches.

Your self-righteous anger at Dot, Excath and others it totally misplaced and inappropriate.

From the tone of your posts, you sound like you still have a lot of anger and rage. You don't have them questioning you and wondering why you are still angry after all this time. Of course, without proof, White Dove and Oldies will assume you are lying about your situation. No "testimonials" for them. Can you back it up in a court of law, papers please, a pacer search so we can find the court transcript of your case please?

You will note though, that rest of us will give you the benefit of the doubt and believe what you have gone through. Just a heads up, don't be too surprised when WD doesn't believe your "claim."

I'm glad you think you know what Dot, Excath, and others should have done.

But you don't know them and don't know really, in regards to their situations, what you're talking about. I think you're being a little judgmental and self-righteous. Apples and oranges, your experience is different than theirs. Although, since you and them had been molested, I thought you, having been in their shoes would have shown a little more compassion.

Here we go again. One who believes in Christ is "narrow minded." Cman opens after Geisha's post with a nice little smackdown. We were having a nice exchange of ideas here. See my other thread.

So, should Geisha shut up now? Is the concensus that she's narrow minded? Have her posts offended you?

She gave a nice discourse on history. Did people here even read it? It was rather fascinating and part of a discussion she's having with Danny. I think they've both met their match and hopefully will both continue.

Oh yeah, totally agree.

I basically started from scratch after leaving TWI. Literally tossing notes, syllabi, books, etc. The very first thing God taught me after walking away (I believe it was Him/Holy Spirit, and it came as a little idea that I mused upon literally for months, then sat down and read the Gospel of John and the first few verses exploded in my head) was - the diety of Christ. That was the first thing - the most important thing. I guess TWI would call it the Trinity. Except it was way beyond TWI's ignorant definition of the trinity. VP had no clue.

It was a Seminarian, when I finally shared with her this amazing/wild idea, who looked at me and said, well, you've just described the trinity.

I think TWI's greatest disservice was its teaching on Jesus Christ. He is not what they taught. Thus, I believe in most ways TWI was not Christian, just in name only.

It denied Christ.

VP, the Word, and "believing" were placed in his stead.

I really believe most TWI people, past and present, with no understanding of Christ, Church history, etc. really do not know what Christianity is. They don't. Because Christianity is not a "what," its a "who."

Its about Christ - he is the revealer, the apokolypsis, to us. Yet, in TWI, he was shoved aside. A cartoon figure up in the sky somewhere who someday will come back, but since he's not here now, let's have our secret doctrines, our top leadership orgies and whatever, because anything goes, as long as you keep it lockbox. TWI had us, its regular followers, and its inner sanctum "initiates."

TWI was just another, in many ways, pagan "mystery religion."

Good points all. My sweet Roy, I like your idea of categories, or sections within the doctrinal forum.

I think like someone said here, maybe its how things are said. I know I enjoy discussing stuff, either I've read, learned, agree with, or have changed my mind and don't agree with. Like, for example, Roy, you remember when we got into the discussion of Nephilim, DNA, etc. We were both at opposing side of the issue, but it was a good spirited, lively debate. Maybe we all just need to agree to disagree and go from there.

Cman, chill. I haven't accused anyone of anything. I stated my opinion. I stated what I have seen and read here. You just jumped down my throat. Thank you for illustrating my opinion. I just repeated what I have seen posted here quite commonly. When someone is as vehement as you are, why would anyone want to stir up that particular hornet's nest? And if someone has stated they don't believe, why would anyone try and convince them otherwise? Not me. That would be a pretty futile exercise, for people to try and change other people's minds - on both sides.

Oak, thanks for your civil reply. All I'm saying, is the Christians here start a topic, and many times its pretty much done in by those who need to let us know they don't believe and subtly mock or insult - as has happened to me and somehow equating belief in Christ or God with some kind of "skygod." I could no more believe in any kind of sky god or Santa, or whatever, either. Neither could any Christian. The living Christ is just that - living in someone's heart. It passes knowledge. To those who know Him, a "sky god" is an absurd comparison. To those who know Him, there is no comparison - it is a living communion with a living Christ. To those who don't know Him, I guess it would seem logical that's what it must be like - some kind of weird sky god - that's all they can compare it with and I can see their point totally. But to a Christian its living and real, its a spiritual life, nothing like the world can imagine or compare.

Of course there are the exceptions with threads. The threads I have seen discussions with Christians that have lasted is because they pretty much ignore the one liners and jabs and continue with the discussion. That hasn't happened too recently though.

Oh well, at least we can all agree, believer and unbeliever "the law of believing" is whack.

Listen, its really simple. The guy behaved like a jerk. Period.

I had no problem with him until recently when he went after me out of the blue. If you can't take it, don't dish it.

He has been here for quite awhile. He has quite adequately proved his boorishness, his appalling frivolity on very serious threads, people had just shared about something that had hurt them deeply and he makes a joke.

Good, he's gone. I'm sure there are other pro-TWI sites that would love to have him.

If he had joined the discussion, whether pro or con, doesn't matter, and had been respectful, as most posters are, he would maybe have garnered some sympathy.

But, he couldn't and he wouldn't. Every single thread he went in, he dropped his little turd bombs in and walked away, and said, what, who me????

So, at this point, no one cares. He blew any respect or sympathy he may have garnered.

He brought this on himself. He thought he was being funny and cute after people had asked him to stop and be serious, contribute to the discussion.

Now, its not so funny and cute to him, is it? Its called unintended consequences, or blowback.

It seems to me, within the last year or so, that when those of us who still believe try and discuss Christ, the Bible, God, that anyone who still believes in Christianity, is now a fool, still stuck in TWI, responsible for the Crusades and mass murder, etc. The belief in Christ is ridiculed, derided, etc. consistently here.

We used to have great discussions here.

Not so much anymore. A few new people try and explain why they still believe, and are called intolerant, closed minded, not open to new ideas, etc.

For those of us GS "old timers" who still believe, for most of us, its just not worth our time to post here anymore because pretty much we will be ridiculed, shot down, called superstitious, irrational, and on and on.

You note Jen-O's not here now. Let's see how long Geisha lasts.

Ha! Bumpy complaining this site is like TWI - that's a laugh. Anytime anything not nice is said about TWI, he changes the subject by making stupid jokes and tries his hardest to derail threads. Bumpy, from reading his threads, is more like a TWI person. Nothing bad to be said about TWI if he can help it.

He has never added to a discussion, just distraction, "jokes" (if you can call them that) - he's a troll and a good one.

He has nothing to add. If he was ever serious and joined in the conversation, that would be one thing, but he is incapable of doing that.

Who cares where he is.

All I see in this most recent letter is a middle aged man, trying to recapture the "glory days." Its called mid-life crisis. You can see this quite a bit in male ex-twi leadership. They look back over their lives, see when they were happiest, and try and recreate it. Thus, JAL's new letter, his clarion call, for new recruits.

Or, the old guys behind the new corps. Young grandson VP2 will be their puppet. He's the bait, the old guys will run it and bring back those glory days.

When will these people realize, its gone, the old TWI is dead, God has moved on. What worked then, in terms of structure, does not work now. You know where the young christian people are today? They are in their church youth groups, and they invite their friends from high school, and they go to places like New Orleans and help rebuild people's houses, or do a habitat for humanity trip. My niece and nephew love it. Their friends are involved. They are wonderful Christian kids. Many of them don't attend the church, but they love their youth group pastors and their teaching.

Also, what makes these ex-TWI men believe they were even called to any kind of Christian ministry by God? So, VP ordained them - to serve his organization and herd the people. An ordination by VP does not equal being called by God as a minister.

I think many of these men don't have a "ministry" and have no clue what they're doing. Are too proud to get credentialled or go to school, and yet, think because they are advanced class grads, they know the Word more than any other groups.

I think all we need do is look at their "fruit." And JAL's is dismal. Somehow, I have a hard time believing, just because he was a top hot dog in TWI, that him and other Revs. actually really have or had, a "ministry."

I think that sums up a lot of this discussion very nicely.

VP was evil, but he spoke good things.

Those who want to follow an evil man and his good leaven, go right ahead.