Sunesis

When I was there for a short stint, my job dept. was in the depths of the basement (upholstery shop). Sometimes I'd go there after a class to finish something up or work on something. There quite a few times late at night - it was just creepy. You felt like something was there - watching. I eventually quit going there at night. It was just a vibe. I still believe there are places spirits like hanging out, maybe something happened in a place once, or, I don't know. I don't believe in dead people haunting things or being ghosts, but sometimes, there are some places, things or people that give off a "vibe" and not a pleasant one.

To me, all of Rome City gave off an old, unpleasant vibe - it just wasn't right. That's the only way I can explain it. Many people love it and have fond memories, but I was glad to be out of there. I never liked it. It reminded me of an old, smelly, bedridden old person that we spruced up. Strange mind pic, I know, but that's what it reminded me of.

Steve, do a word study on Shoel or gravedom. yes, the flesh dies. But, the soul goes down to the grave.

You have lots of dead souls in Revelation asking for vengence, and being told they must wait a bit longer until their brothers have also been martyred.

When Jesus used the parable of Lazarus, if they were truly, dead, I doubt he would have been talking about what Lazarus and the rich man were going through.

If you study the souls in the grave/sheol/hell, you will note that they are conscious and self-aware.

But yes, the flesh goes back to the dust and is no more.

I can no longer buy VP's belief in "soul sleep." I believe souls are quite aware, I believe when Christ was resurrected out of Sheol he was the given the authority (keys) to the gates of Sheol. Not one believer, now that Christ was resurrected, would ever be again separated from their Savior. I believe when his children die, they are with him, but will not yet receive their new, resurrection body until the appointed time.

Just as I thought. You are full of hot air.

You have nothing.

Okay, so the total sum of legitimate evidence that your story book is the Words of a God/gods given to men remains at zero!

I have had fifty years of nothing but empty words and fraudulent claims always the same from you self acclaimed story book believers.

You fail on all counts!

Well, if you're so awesome, where's your website? Where are the posted testimonials of people you've delivered?

If you're so amazing and have done all these things, what's your name so we can research you.

What are your professional credentials?

Right now, I see some new person talking smack and incredibly rude, and declares every one here who believes the book a failure.

Really, if this has been your thing for 50 years - where's your site and testimonials proclaiming this purported deliverance you bring the deluded masses?

Why should we believe you? Why should we respect you?

Show us your credentials and testimonials of people you have delivered.

They may not make much, but when I worked there in payroll - what most people didn't know is that they just write a little note - I'm going shopping, I need $500. That's what they did, I don't know if they do it now. They take the low salary to make themselves look humble, while secretly raiding the piggy bank.

I am pretty sure, though I could never prove it, they they had two sets of books, just in case the IRS wanted to take a look.

That email you received is a disgrace. Shellon, if it came through here, I would ask Paw to let you know who it is. If it went to your home computer, I'd get a computer person to trace. that can be done. I would not stop until I found out. Then I would repost that little ditty, with this coward's name attached at the bottom.

I would not let this go. What they did was cowardly and they deserve to be outed.

Sorry, OT. Steve, thank you for inadvertently answering a question I had. You answered them with the Ezekiel verses :)

I know, after Armeggedon, when Christ returns and judges the nations (the gentiles) and separates out the ones to enter into the Millenium (those who helped the Jew by their works) and enter into the land, and the ones who don't get to enter, I had wondered - where was Israel and the followers of Messiah, because I knew most of them had died and been martyred by this time - although there obviously was a remnant who did meet him.

The verse answers it - God brings them to life to enter into the land. The first resurrection of the just. What I also find fascinating is they are flesh and bone, but no blood. Why? because they are now "powered" or energized by Spirt - the same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead and took him from the grave under the earth through the heavens to the Heavenlies.

I believe, when Christ appeared to the Apostles after his resurrection and said, to Thomas I believe, "touch me, handle me, a spirit hath not flesh and bone as you see me." He did not have blood. His life force so to speak - was now spirit. I also think he was showing them what their new eternal bodies would look like. Just a thought.

I may be wrong - but those verses in Ezekiel did clear something up for me. Thanks!

I really enjoy everyone's perspectives and posts here. For a youngster - Gen, you sure have a lot of wisdom.

I love everyone's take on time and eternity because I am not "scientifically" or mathematically endowed.

My sister asked me one time, well, how can Christ be reigning on earth, yet be our head in the heavenlies. I thought and said, string theory or quantum mechanics. We know now an atom can be two things at once. We also know the particle can be two places at the same time. I said, it must have something to do with that.

I am enjoying the input - interesting to see where God and Christ has led us each after TWI. And - surprise - its all a bit different for each one of us.

Thanks for your thoughts Jeff. I can see we disagree on some things.

I do not consider consider the mystery and the one body whose citizenship is in heaven "highmindedness." Why? Because the one body is for JEW and Gentile - if the Jew so desires and accepts Christ. There is no highmindedness in that - only grace.

During the Acts period, the Gentile believers were still "second class" citizens. The wall in the temple was still up which separated them from their fellow believers - the Jew could enter the inner court and the Hellenistic believer had to wait outside. As Paul said - the "Jew First."

For centuries, according to the flesh, the Jew was God's chosen people. Whether the Jew believed God or not, he was Gods. The finest, most gracious gentile was still a dog in the flesh while the most vile Jew was holy. Israel's blessings to come are the whole earth and the heavenly Jerusalem come down from heaven.

In the FLESH and on the EARTH - the blessings belong to one group - Israel. Talk about some highmindedness that may have caused - for a Jew.

Now, in the Millenium, the Jew comes into his inheritence and blessing - the earth is theirs, they rule with Christ over the nations. They are his servants and priests.

The reason the Gentile and Jew - but mainly Gentile now as Israel refused to believe what God had sent - his Son - with all attendant signs, wonders and miracles - are seated in the Heavenlies and their blessings will be enjoyed in heavenly places is because: The earthly blessings belong to Israel.

That slot is already filled, so to speak, by the Jew.

The Gentile cannot take the Jew's place or inheritance.

Thus, the Gentiles' slot and blessing must be somewhere else - and it is - the heavenlies.

Jeff, you have appropriated Israel's promises, and promises to the Jews - to yourself. I think that is a grave error the church has and is making more and more.

You know, I used to wonder why so many believers are so thrilled about entering into the millenium on earth and discount Paul. I pondered on it for a long time until it hit me - they are so excited because, that is where they are going.

Not all Christians believe Paul's revelation of the mystery as revealed in his prison epistles - and that is their right. "Be it unto you according to your faith (believing)." But many do believe.

But, there are some, who heed Paul's revelation, the Mystery, the "fullness" of the revelation given to Paul after Israel rejects its Messiah. Israel are now "Lo-Ammi" - not my people, and Christ now heads the body, this new man and is building a new creation for his habitation in the heavenly places.

Some, in this age of grace, as they line up going to the earthly Kingdom, heard another call.

Be it unto you according to your believing. Just as Abraham believed God when God showed him the multitude of stars and said, so shall your seed be, and because he believed he was counted righteous, so Paul, when he believed God's revelation given to him about a new creation/body in a place, not of the earth nor of the flesh (for that is Israel's inheritance), but of a place for a new creation in the heavenlies - Paul believed. And was translated from the Kingdom to the Heavenlies.

There are bodies terrestial and bodies celestial. Israel will have their new eternal bodies for habitation on the earth and the new earth - eternal bodies terrestial. The church, the one body shall have its body - celestial - fit for habitation in a new heaven. Just as there are different families on earth and heaven, so there will be to come with some changes and additions.

So, whether we agree or disagree, I see no highmindedness. I see different dispensations and different families and different dwellings - In my father's mansion are many dwellings, I go to prepare a place for you.

Jeff, I agree, the return and resurrection in Matthew, Thessalonians and Christ's return in Revelation are all the same event.

You realize the implications of this now do you not? If they are the same event, then there is no "rapture" or "gathering together."

If this is so, then Christians have been fed a lie.

If, as many believe, the OT prophecies go into Matthew into the age of grace into the book of Revelation. This means, we will go through the tribulation as the event of Christ's return comes AFTER the tribulation and wrath. If its all the same dispensation/administration, let's all hope we have enough oil in our lamps when He does appear, and after all the destruction, those still standing after the tribulation and wrath - the survivors - will go out to meet him in the air when he comes.

What a bleak, dreary, awful hope for a Christian - to know they are going through the 7 year tribulation and wrath, thus, prepare to hang tough.

You need to look at - what was the early Jewish Christians and new Hellenistic/Gentile Christians' Hope? It was "Israel's Hope" as Paul states in Acts 26. He states he is in bonds for the "Hope of Israel." He teaches "nothing but what Moses, the Law and the Prophets teach." He always goes to "the Jew first." Romans, I&II Corinthians, Galations, I and II Thessalonians, I Timothy were written when he was teaching "Israel's Hope" and that's what the believers of that time were looking forward to - entering the time of the Book of Revelation - the Kingdom was at hand, He was coming back shortly to rule. He was coming back shortly to take his rightful place on the throne of David and Rule the Nations. The Gentiles were blessed to be grafted into the Olive tree (Romans) and were blessed and graced to be able to share in Israel's inheritance after being "aliens and strangers" from the promises and covenants of Israel. So, yes those are all the same incident and the Gentiles get to hang with Israel and share in Israel's hope during the "Acts period" as I will call it.

So now, what is the answer for the Christian? We're told we need to be faithful, we're saved by our works, then we're told its grace, then we're..., etc. How do you tell them what they will go through if this is all one continuous administration? How do you reconcile these difficulties?

I have thoughts, but I'd like to hear yours.

LOL!!! Godlets - I love it.

Whoa... Awesome post Geisha.

No, newbie.

After your noxious comments and total disrespect for people here, you tell us first:

1. Why are you here?

2. What is your goal - what do you expect to teach people?

3. What is your motive?

$. What are the results you desire or expect to see in people after you have taught them?

Well golly gee, you convinced me Composer!!!

I have been so blind, but Composer has shown me the light after all these decades.

Aren't you special.

I wanna be special like you.

Who of the christian faith should I hate first? Which ones make you vomit the most - maybe that group will be a good start.

Good point Gen.

Why do people who hate God and his people come on biblical discussion forums?

Really, what is their motive?

Oh yeah, love the "compassion" - reserved only for those who hate God like he does. I'm sure all others make him vomit.

Hypocrite.

I get the message Roy, I'll butt out. Sorry I bothered you.

Composer, how long were you in TWI for?

I did really say that. You should have seen their expressions, everyone kind of glanced at everyone else, little brains whirring... who here is possessed??? Not me, not me!!! I then said, I don't see anyone here who is possessed. I.e, if you believe what he said, I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you. It certainly did make people pause. But, after the pause, they continued to give him their allegence.

Chockful - great points also, along with Skyrider on why Geer didn't make his move then. Thanks.

Skyrider - I am amazed too, that CG's spiritual "fire" in the end comes down to a franchised class. Someone shared on here I believe, years ago, that they paid the money to get the class and could never get enough people to take it - they lost a boatload. His class is not cheap. He does nothing, Geerites pay big bucks for permission to use it, and the money rolls in to him. Anyone know how much he charges for the "blessing" of being able to use it?

Hiway, I believe Mrs. W. was on LCM's "side" pretty much. I know someone who heard they were having a Day in the Word or something, and they went to the hotel to see her just to say hi on a break as they had been very close. Mrs. W was pretty stern, told them to leave if they couldn't support the MOG (LCM). They were crushed. She wasn't too tolerant of the traitors I don't think.

Good points Skyrider. I remember our corps meeting after that corps week when we were back home. I was not a geerite, nor was I following LCM, or anyone at the point. I was on my way out. But they were talking about how great it was Geer had the copyrights. There were about 20 of us there.

I looked around and said after all the talking was done, since I was a lowly peon and not a corps honcho all the bigwigs went first. But I said, did you ever think he's going to start his own ministry, now that he has the copyrights? I also said, you know, he stated that 90 percent of the corps is possessed. I look around this room, that means 18 of you should be possessed - sorry, but I don't think you are. Do not follow this man. He is not a nice person or what you think he is. They did not like my talk.

I later found it was taped and the limb leader who was a Geer follower was not happy with my comments. After that, none of the corps would talk to me, or if they did it was grudgingly. They all went after Geer and became unbelieveably legalistic.

But, ok, I see, he needed to get the copyrights. He needed to get things in place, ducks lined up. I still think, if he were as smart as he thought he was, he should have made his move then. He could have gotten LCM out. Sure, maybe he would have lost people, but HQ would have been his and many more than you think would have stayed.

Over time, with LCM there, he lost the chance and LCM became more ensconced and the wagons circled around him. Geer would never be able to dislodge him. The moment was past. I guess that's it, he was an administrator - not a political player. He could have "won" if he had played his cards right.

Very good analysis Skyrider. I do have one question re the power grab.

Why did Chris durng corps week after POP was read keep running back and forth to Gartmore, or demanding people come to him? Then there would be rumors - he's here, or no, he's not, yes he is so and so saw him - oh well, he left.

If he wanted power he could have grabbed it right then and there. He had the trustees where he wanted them, and there were 5 at this point, he could have simply had them vote Craig out. He didn't do that. I think if he had, right then and there, come out and announced the news, gave a loving little speech, all would have gone for it.

I felt later, he and LCM were in a struggle for control of HQ.

By not grabbing it then - he forever lost.

So, why do you think he played games and didn't strike then? After that, people had time to go home and think and it would not have worked.

I think in some ways, Hiway29's post sums it up for me.

Also, I had seen CG in action - literally hissing at a woman and going non-stop, the hate was vile. I wondered, what is going on here? It then dawned on me he was enjoying it! He was a sadistic SOB and I knew right then and there he was not, nor ever would be a "man of god." He was arrogant and aloof in the corps, basically had no friends and made himself a carbon copy of VP. They laughed together during his ordination - it was all very funny dontcha know, two special peas in a pod. I think of Goebbels and Hitler when I think of those two.

Anyway, here comes this whiney, self-absorbed, look at me, oh, the struggles I've had to put up with, pity paper and I just thought, you bastard. Also, calling 90% of the corps possessed (I think he did that in one of his meetings) - then showing up, running to scotland, showing up again - the games he played.

As to what was in the paper - basically dissing everyone - I think I realized - these people really are asshats. I'd had my suspicions, but now I knew. I know many people felt betrayed, the curtain was pulled back and the man behind the curtain, VP, was just a vindictive little man. People were now given permission in their minds to leave.

I know people who had spent years, given up their homes, comfortable jobs, even spouses who now felt angry and betrayed - we gave our lives for this???!!! For many it was a first time glimpse behind the scenes and they did not like what they saw. Here was the man of God even insulting and putting down his own family for public display - what kind of a person does that?

Also, as George said, people asked and asked for specifics - well, what exactly have the trustees done wrong? What have we done wrong? How can anyone expect to "change" or fix things if no one knew what it was that needed changing. It was all vague generalities.

Here's the thing, you had a generation who had gotten involved at 15, 16 through early 20s, and after all those years they were now grown up - early thirties and more. I think, we finally just had enough of the bull. POP exposed it, and we said - we're outta here. Time to make a real life for ourselves. And most of us have.

I tend to agree 86-89 was more like one exodus. But to me - 86 was the "en masse" year - a huge chunk left. I went back in '87 to the Rock and corps week and realized there really wasn't anyone there I knew. Most of my 7th corps people were gone, plus many others I knew. I felt like a stranger. I was already mentally gone but was there out of "duty."

I did go to the '88 one knowing full well it was my last. I think I wanted to take one last look around. There was really no one there I knew anymore. I spent two days and left - didn't bother finishing the corps week or the rock. I saw it for what it was and knew I was truly done. I think, for me, it was a closure thing. I wanted to see it one last time. I was 33 and had been visiting since I was teen in High School, had been on staff there, etc. So, it was a goodbye thing. Which was good as I never wanted over the years to go back and see it again.

But, 86 after POP rocked our world. I remember telling my coordinator at evaluations I could not guarantee him I'd be around the next year. I think the majority booked in '86 and others felt like they could now do it safely. You have to remember the intense "peer pressure." But now, it was ok to leave. I think that was a move of God.

I tried talking to the young kids there just starting out in the corps, and realized they were so sold out to LCM. I then realized, they would have to grow up like we did. That's when I think you saw the mass exodus after the Allen suit. Ten years or so, they had grown up and were now in their early 30s. Also a move of God I believe.

I really think there were just two. People there now will never leave - unless forced.

Did they ever stop shopping? They must have storage rooms of "stuff" from the Lima and Dayton Malls, and from ones all over the country they stop at during their travels.

When I was on staff at HQ, every weekend, off to the mall went Emogene in her station wagon. I'd be in payroll and the note would come in "I am going shopping, I need $500 please." This was from DM and others. This was back in '83 or so, which would be like $1,000 in today's money. That's all the top "hot dog" ladies ever did - shop and hang out at each other's houses.

They shopped because they were bored - nothing else to do out there in the sticks except ride a motorcycle on a nice day, party, and shop every weekend.

Penworks, that must have sucked, cleaning the great DM's car.

On a serious note, did she have any friends left by that time when you were still there? Or was it by then, her and Rosie against the world? I knew when her BFF MG (used to be M*&cia Fa**k) left HQ, things must be bad.

Steve, I ran across the Overthrow of the Foundation idea from two books I read a few years ago: The Earth's Earliest Ages, by Pember, and The Invisible War by Donald Barnhouse. I've always liked that concept. Both available from Amazon. Both excellent books. It took a while to meander over there in my walk. I believe God gives us ideas, thought, musings, that if we follow up on, we are pleasantly surprised.

Interesting writing on Paul. I look at the word "Logos" as an idea that has been given form. Like, the invisible man, you can't see him until he drapes himself with a blanket or something - then he is manifest - you can see him, his form. Christ was the "Logos" given form - the idea (the mind of God - his purposes and desires), made manifest - in the flesh. The flesh was the blanket, so to speak, giving shape to the Logos.