CoolWaters

I don't have a problem with guns.

I have a problem with people thinking that using a gun solves the problem.

Big difference.

so cw

am i to understand that you would let your 8 yo be shot by another 8 yo b4 you took action ?

Ah. Now the 'what ifs'. cc, I know beyond the shadow of a doubt that I would not shoot anybody. That is NOT the same as saying I would not take action.

How does not shooting suddenly equate to not taking action?

Never the less, I thought that it was a pretty mean thing to say to somebody who simply made the effort to move to an area that wasn`t rampant with gang activity.

I moved out into the country. It has nothing to do with being white or flight from another ethnic race. It is all about not wanting the violence of gangs in ones neighborhood.

It was an unjustified racial slur against Dot, and came off as a personal attack.

Well, then you're not reading Dot's posts. She made racial slurs.

A thought I have about race and poverty and statistics is--without ethnicity-- there would be no affirmative action. without ethnicity -- there would be no statistics to tell you how much money welfare should have budgeted next year.

You honestly believe that welfare budgets are because of ethnicity????????????????????

That's just ignorant! (Ignorant means unlearned...I didn't call you stupid.)

Where have I attacked Dot? This is the 3rd time I've asked you to specify what I've actually said...and the 3rd time you've played it off as a given without any need to point out what I said.

To the cat litter...as a former GSCer used to say.

Cool, I loved your visit. I loved meeting you. I am explaining this very badly.

Sigh...deep breath....You appear to be viewing people as being intolerant racists when it is simply the lawless, violent, destruction that the gangs bring with them that is objectional.

People are frightened, and are doing the best that they can to stop the spread of frightening lawlessness. To accuse Dot, and anyone else who choose not to live in a rough neighborhood of *whitey flighty* was unkind, and the first *racial* stone thrown here, and unjust.

rascal, maybe I'm not getting what you're saying.

I don't view "people" as being intolerant racists...I view the person who made intolerant and racist statements as being intolerant and racist.

I said only to Dot "So you practiced White Flight.." because she said that's what she did. She didn't out-and-out call it White Flight. What she did say was:

Bottom line is

I worked VERY hard to get a home with an acre and a half. I choose NOT to live in the city. I did NOT want to be in the buzz, the crime or anything else. I drive a distance to work for that privellage and for the saftey. I obey the rules. (now, you can pull apart each statement saying what makes me think you do not -- I am not talking of you I am now speaking of me, you gave us your perspective)

I am not, at the advent of these punks comming into my HOME or neighborhood, going to allow it. Nor will I NOT have protection.

IF you are arguing about guns -- I will never change my position and I assume you will not either.

I am not talking about the poor inner city kids -- the cities have them. I am not talking about how they need direction -- they do.

I am talking about arriving in the burbs with their paint, destruction and attitudes about how America owes them something... or about how little regard they have for what people worked their lives for--

From Wikipedia:

White flight is a colloquial term for the demographic trend of upper and middle class Americans (predominantly white) moving away from inner cities (predominantly non-white), finding new homes in nearby suburbs or even moving to new locales entirely. A major cause of white flight in United States cities was redlining, the practice of denying or increasing the cost of services, such as banking or insurance, to residents in certain, often racially and economically determined areas such as inner-city neighborhoods[1][2].

In areas of some of the largest cities in the United States, the trend reversed itself in the 1990s to a limited extent (see gentrification). White flight is often attributed to racism.[3] Some have argued that it is primarily attributable to economic prejudice or rapidly increasing crime rates in racially mixed neighborhoods beginning in the 1960s.[citation needed] People often leave dense urban areas for financial reasons such as increasing taxes, lucrative suburban mortgages and high rent rates in major urban centers.

How can you with this extremely varied background that you have mentioned on another thread,not respect another's desire to avoid gang activity, other's desire to draw the line when crime and violence start to creep in?

You have made yourself out to be the martyr that lives near gangs or something...could it be that you have rebelled from the "senator's wife" that was forced on you as a young person?

I asked you this once and now I ask you this again: Do you actually read my posts or just fly off when you're told to fly off?

WHERE have I ever stated or even intimated that I do not respect another's desire to avoid gang activity or another's desire to draw the line when crime and violence start to creep in???????

By the way-- We did have a Neighborhood association president try to allow a sex offender to live with him for safety. He had left Michigan with warnings that he was extremely dangerous. It was all over the press, even on Connie Chung. The guy was an activist trying to make a point. But he lived 2 streets away, and if this offender moved in, he would be that close to our house. ( I have children) We did what we needed to do ---long story--short version is that he still lives there...sex offender left New Mexico, He is no longer Pres...We asked the city to disban that association, an we started another one...,He ruined his repuation, all of us personally did many things, but yeas we did act, and yes we did keep him out.

And that is how it should have been handled, imo. That is very much like what I've explained many times on this thread how things were/are handled in my neighborhoods.

I notice that you didn't mention any use of guns and didn't bring up race.

It is easy for me to 'hear' this type of communication and get that what you were doing was protecting your neighborhood.

It didn't seem like that was difficult to post, but seemed like you were just telling me what happened.

What part of what I have said shocked you?

My experience in your neighborhood was very good, I have to say. But didn't it take a while for me to settle down and want to stay? I felt it did.

I had other experiences that weren't so good during that time, though.

At no point in time did I even remotely consider that I should have been armed to go into such neighborhoods. Afterwards, though, I realized that there was at least one point I should have ran to the nearest bus station and never looked back. Still, I never once even thought about 'defending' myself with violence. In fact, I was too terrified to even consider that I could defend myself.

Look, I said it in my last post to you but maybe not so clearly, so I will say it again here: I didn't bring race into this and I did not refer to race until it was brought into this. I did not coerce anyone to make racial comments. I simply responded to the race issue once it was introduced.

Those trying to make me out to be a bigoted, lying, twisted sicko at this point are simply doing the same thing a cat does when it takes a crap...trying to cover its own stench.

**********************

WW, do you read my posts or just fly off when you're told to fly off?

cw if that eight year old had a gun in hand {or a knife or a pipe bomb}you are very correct in assuming i would blow him away if i had reason to think he was threatining me or any one else

and by the way i am 58 years old and have never been a fight in my live

but.....

i have a 12 gauge but i am not in any way a violent man

cw take meds

you are a GOOd person

Being called a good person by someone who would shoot an 8 year old is not something I like too much...with or without meds.

Well, I for one maintain my right not not like crappy neighbors - gang or otherwise...and nobody here or in or out of TWi or any group of people I am associated with can tell me I don't have that right....

AND I dont give 2 u no whats what CW or anyone thinks about what I think about crappy neighbors making crappy neighborhoods.

Frankly--throwing a bucket of judgement on someone for not liking or conforming to your way of thinking CW is very wayish.

I would take this seriously if you would point out exactly what I'm saying that is wayish. Otherwise, I have to conclude that you're in this for the mud slinging.

you said noone has told you where should we draw the line

as far as i am concerned

i would draw the line as soon as these predators moved in to my neck of the wood

then the 12 gauge comes out

could it be called

setting an example

You say "as soon as these predators moved in to my neck of the wood". How would you know they had moved in? What is your criteria for discerning a 'predator'? How would you who to shoot? If you determined an 8 year old to be a predator, would you shoot the 8 year olds as readily as you shot the adults?

I think your comments to Jonny Lingo are particularly offensive because, it's true, he DIDN'T say anything about calling SEALS in to attack Christian fellowships because they might harbor pedophiles, however, he MIGHT take a different view if the fellowships were armed and aggressively killing and stealing to achieve their ends.

Please tell me you're not saying that perpetrating sex crimes on children is the lesser of evils...????

This fellowship was armed...by the military, btw...because aside from my family, it was a military twig.

For gawd's sake, people!!!! I have said over and over again right here on this thread that I have worked diligently and successfully to REMOVE gangs, wannabe gangs, gang activity, etc. from my neighborhoods. How in the he11 does anybody conclude that I support crime in any way, shape or form????? Good grief.

Am I bigoted? Ya know, I probably am. The worst experiences in my life have all been perpetrated by whites. When I go into a middle class white neighborhood these days, I lock my doors and literally shake with fear until I am out of those neighborhoods. rascal can testify to this about me!

BUT WHEN WHITES COME TO MY NEIGHBORHOOD, I DON'T RESPOND WITH BEING ARMED, WILLING TO SHOOT TO KILL, AND WANTING TO CALL IN A MILITARY EXTERMINATION TEAM.

Lord have mercy!

No, rascal, I was not assigning racial motives to all...just to those who have expressed their motives to be at least in some part racially based.

And I know you meant no insult...and I got the line you were drawing for me. I hope I addressed these things to your satisfaction. If not, ask again...and I'll try again.

I mean no insult, either...to you or anyone else.

rascal,

Of all people in the world I know, I know for certain that there is respect between you and I...and that we both think a lot about one another. And I thank you very much for this!

Maybe it's not about race. I wasn't thinking it was until I went to the link posted...where I found comments like this: "Spreading from El Salvador to L.A. and across the United States, Mara Salvatrucha 13 is increasingly well organized and deadly." and, "Mara Salvatrucha 13 (MS-13) is unfortunately becoming everybody’s problem. This plague that came to Long Island from El Salvador by way of the streets of Los Angeles follows the same migratory patterns as the Salvadoran immigrant community that it preys upon, fanning out across the United States from ethnic enclaves in California."

Yeah...that got me disjointed. Unfairly? I dunno...most of what I've seen posted here at GSC concerning the problems in this particular poster's life usually boils down to race...and sometimes other things that make people 'undesirable' in some way...like being poor, being gay, being something not acceptable to that person's world...that isn't crime.

And the race issue came up again in this person's posts on this very thread. Along with the gay issue. A couple of other non-criminal issues, too.

That seemingly innocent mixing up of issues just sux, imo. It reveals to me that a person is NOT looking for a solution, but is really looking for a way to sterilize their world of anything non-WASPy. IMO.

And the person has said as much on this thread.

I care for this person, so I took the time to try and offer alternatives that have worked in many, many neighborhoods across the country...and that I have personally seen work quite well in my neighborhoods.

In return, I got scathing accusations, revealing of private information, called names, etc. Not by this particular person straight up (meaning that it was insinuated, not said straight out), but by those who think they're doing good to defend this person from horrible, horrible me.

My gawd, rascal, if people can't deal with the likes of me without breaking down into name calling and other provocative behavior, what do you think they're like in 3D? Can you imagine such behavior in 3D? Especially when interacting with those one openly disdains?

I don't have all the answers, thankfully. I don't know all the solutions, thankfully. I do, however, have some answers...and those answers have proven repeatedly to work. And I do, however, have some solutions...and those solutions have proven repeatedly to actually solve the problems instead of provoking worse problems.

I learned these things the hard way, too. I grew up in white suburbia with privilege I never knew I had until I lived outside of white suburbia. Part of the attraction to twi for me was the very concept that believing=receiving...that people get what they deserve in life, so if one is getting a bum's rap, one deserves a bum's rap...or to be sick, or poor, or treated like a leper, or whatever. Having gawd on my side while I went around telling people what they needed to fix themselves just made it all the better for me, too...or so I thought until I had to deal with reality and got my a$$ kicked (literally and figuratively) over and over again until it finally dawned on me that maybe what I was doing wasn't working so well.

How would I feel if this topic were about pedophiles and the sentiments expressed were directed at pedophiles? I am surprised that you have to ask, rascal. What surprises me is that if you're asking, then somewhere along the line I've expressed that I want to arm myself and shoot to kill and call in a military extermination team to deal with pedophiles. If I have ever stated such a thing, it was outside of my nature and I am ashamed of saying such things. How to deal with pedophiles is one of the answers and one of the solutions that I don't have. I do know that violence is a 'solution' I've chosen in my adult life not more than five times...and none of those times was it against a pedophile...not even the perpetrator who hurt my daughter...and none of those times involved any weapon of any kind. Each and every time I chose violence, I only escalated the situation nearly to the point of no return.

Violence begets violence. If both sides are armed and willing to shoot to kill, the line between 'criminal' and 'concerned citizen' gets blurred all too quickly...and the reasons to shoot to kill become more and more about personal prejudices and less and less about 'right' and 'wrong'.

In the beginning, it sounds all nice and upright to want to kill those who are willing to kill.

But wait a minute...if the 'good guys' are willing to kill, then who is going to shoot to kill them? The 'bad guys'? Then are more 'good guys' going to come along to shoot to kill those 'bad guys'? And then who is going to come along to shoot to kill those who shot to kill those who shot to kill those who shot to kill?

"Ah," one might say, "I know where to draw the line."

Nobody has yet to answer me about just where is that line drawn.

And as far as Dot taking proactive action, she's not. All she's doing is complaining. Not once has she even considered organizing a group of off-duty cops to clean up the tag graffiti.

That's a very telling thing, imo.

Coolwaters, sounds like you really hate white people and want to blame them for everything wrong in the world. Me, I really hate prejudiced people. And before you say anything, if I remember correctly, you are white. I've known a number of white people, mostly women who hate white people though, and that kind of prejudice makes me just as sick as a neo-nazi skinhead would.

Rick

What I hate, Rick, is people who complain about everybody else's crap stinking while saying they themselves don't crap at all.

Big, HUGE difference between hating white people and hating that mentality...which, in my life's experience, is uniquely white.

Yes, I'm white...partly. I'm more a mutt. Like my daughter, my son, my granddaughter, my husband and probably more people than want to admit it.

I have nothing more to say to you. You are a liar.

Oh lawd...if I can't be cawed and bullied by saying you don't trust or respect me, call me a liar.

What did I lie about? That you've never expressed that you want the Navy Seals to explode in upon a twig meeting and shoot to kill the twig leader because he's a pedophile? Well, you haven't.

It's too easy to let things break down into a battle. It's the ease of the lazy...criminal or otherwise.

Jonny,

I was not accusing you. I wasn't even referring to that actual time period. I said, "I sure didn't hear this sentiment out of you concerning Rich U. and those who protected/protect him..." Referring to things you have said on these treads. That's all.

MY POINT was what I said, "Jonny, at what point do you draw the line?"

And that's STILL my point.

What do you think makes a person turn to gangs?

The reality of things is that one cannot separate the cause from the effect.

Pedophilia is such an insidious crime that some statistics say 1 out of every 2 homes in America must deal with this problem.

But that's not the only thing that can lead a person to gangs. Do you know what gang members have said led them to gangs?

Again I ask you: At what point do you draw the line?

As for you respecting me or not...

I never assumed you did in the first place. I have learned that if someone actually respects me in the first place, then it's not so easily lost.

So you pulled White Flight and it didn't work. ::shrug:: It never does.

Dot, there is no way on God's green earth that you can seriously say that when you went WOW you were offering people anything more than another con that they saw right through. Well, you can say it, but if you believe it, then that explains a whole lot about why they ripped you off. "Here you pathetic ragamuffin devil spirit in the form of a criminal, I've got ALL THE ANSWERS TO FIX YOU! Just drink this koolaid-like drink and follow the yellow brick road I'm gonna take you down...Glawry!" "Sure, sis, anything you say. Just make sure you show me the layout of your house because while you're being holier than me and drinking poisoned koolaid-like drinks, I'm gonna show you what the real world is like." Lessee...you were in a cult, they were in a gang....you were pushing mind/soul/spirit poison, they were pushing to get your belongings away from you...

Don't you think that people KNOW when you're condescending, arrogant and holier-than-thou towards them?

In the end, you've got a choice: become a gang unto yourself or learn a better way.

If you choose the former, don't beetch when they come for you. (This is referring to a Martin Niemoller quote.)

Coolw

You lead a very different life than I do. If I lived in a home with "The house we had in Topeka still has several .45 rounds in the front of it...and many more .38 and .22 rounds in other walls." And a neighborhood with wood on the windows etc. you damn well better believe I would be packing. I would retake karate and I would save my money to move.

I am glad you have that option in life.

It is easy to get used to that and I am sure some people can actually sleep with sirens and red lights flashing --- but like in my cousin Vinny - he needed all of that to feel peaceful because he was used to it. I prefer the annoying crickets and bleeping owls.

At what point did I say I was used to any of this? What I said was that we organized and cleaned it up.

Or

I would much prefer a nice street in a nice neighborhood where the neighbor bakes a pie for no reason and gives it to you on a Thursday.

What makes you think that didn't happen/doesn't happen where I have lived and do live?

The whole time we lived in that house in Topeka (12 years), we found groceries on our doorstep at least once a week. Every Christmas there was either a turkey or a ham, all the fixin's and trimmings, and very personal, well thought out gifts for each one of us in our family...including our pets.

Have you ever lived in a black community? Do you have any clue as to what it means to live in a black community?

Family is the center, and food glues the family together. Usually Grandma is the matriarch of the family...and Grandma can put her foot in some food! What most people here think of as 'southern' food is what I know as 'soul' food. Sweet potato pie, rabbit stew, greens, mashed taters, tater salad, fried chicken, bar-b-qued ribs, hot wings, fried cat fish, pork chops and homemade apple sauce, creamed corn cornbread, and on and on. Every birth, marriage, death, promotion, graduation (from K-College), award, divorce, holiday, church meeting, whatever excuse can be found, our neighborhood was getting together and taking care of one another with food, clothes, singing, dancing and a beer or two.

Same thing with a Latino community...except the food is burritos, enchiladas, tacos, chile rellanos, tortas, tamales, flan, etc.

How about a Vietnamese community? Or a Native American community? Or an Israeli community? Or a Korean community?

What seems like an assumption on your part is that bringing pie around is unique to white suburbia. The truth is, white suburbia does such things as a way to show its social duty. Other communities do it as a lifestyle of survival. White suburbia doesn't need someone to bring food over.

I would never feel comfortable in a gang area.

Are you equating comfortable with accepting? I do not accept gang activity...or any other form of violence. I am, however, comfortable in my home. I wasn't for a long, long time. I had to learn to be comfortable in my own home. I didn't just come to this place of calm magically. Actually, it took a whole lot of work. But being comfortable in my home is not the same as being comfortable with gang activity.

And I would always try to leave.

See, that's where we differ the most. I feel that if those who do not perpetrate crime leave, then who will teach the children that they have options? The Salvation Army? Big Brothers/Big Sisters? The churches? Well, who will make up the congregations? Who will be the volunteers? It takes people fully vested in the future of the neighborhood to make a real impact on the hearts and minds of those stuck in the neighborhood.

And if my creepy neighbors treated me just fine but had a secret about their Aunt Eve because she dates other woman -- well they can have their family secrets.

If that's the only secret you can imagine, you are truly a privileged woman.

I said, "But you know what was harder for me? Living in white suburbia where there was no crime on the streets...it was all kept inside the homes, behind closed doors, secret and deadly."

Being a closet lesbian is not a crime...nor is it deadly...and it is certainly not something that would contribute to crime and violence in a neighborhood.

What I was talking about was stuff like pedophilia (which, btw, most pedophiles fit the profile of white, middle class, married, respected in the community and often known as a pillar of the community), domestic violence (another typically white, middle class crime), drug distributing (which is not penny ante dealing, but is the drop place for the shipment...and is, again, typically perpetrated by middle class whites), and a myriad of other crimes against women and children.

But you come taking your violence and crime into my neighborhood and I will protect myself and what is mine.

You don't think that's what your 'gangbangers' are thinking? If you think they're thinking any differently than you, you're mistaken.

Perhaps you prefer to live in these places, for whatever reason I do not.

What do you think I prefer? The violence? Nope. The slum and blight? Nope. The abject poverty? Nope. The people? BINGO!!!!

If I had a choice of being in a room full of 'gangbangers' or a room full of women from the Lady's Society, you bet your bippy that I'd much rather be in a room full of 'gangbangers'. Their intents and purposes are plain to see and one knows where one stands with them. The Lady's Society, on the other, will screw your husband behind your back, crap on your kids every chance they get, stick their noses so far up in your behind that they can see the red, call Code Enforcement if you have a clothes line, and other such Soap Opera behavior. Then they'll bring you pie on Thursday and smile in your face.

And I do not think America was suppose to be a frightened country letting gun toting children hog tie you and steal your belongings.

Really? What white-washed version of American History do you believe, woman? Good gawd! That's one of the most unlearned and double-standard sentiments I've ever heard.

On the one hand you want to keep a gun and be able to protect yourself and, as some here have stated, shoot to kill.

On the other hand, if those you deem to be 'criminal' think the same way, well BY GAWD GET THEM OUTTA AMERICA!

Now, your method of changes the gang life I salute. You did an admirable job.

It wasn't me alone, but tyvm.

However, if it's so admirable, why wouldn't you do it, too?

But my goal is to NEVER EVER live in an area where "The house we had in Topeka still has several .45 rounds in the front of it...and many more .38 and .22 rounds in other walls."

Bully for you. Gawd bless your efforts.

And in an effort to stop that we have to protect what we worked so hard to achieve. Not give it to a bunch of punks and hope in 7 years things will be better.

First, I plainly stated that things got better in the first year.

Second, where does this sentiment end? Where do you draw the line? At the criminals? Well then who do you criminalize? The violent 'gangbangers'? What about the Welfare Mamas? Or, maybe, those Middle Eastern types? Would you have my daughter investigated because her father is full blooded Iranian and my daughter just didn't look right to you?

These sentiments you state here are the foundation of a very shaky house of trouble that has driven America into the ground.

Those who think that running away and locking up everybody that feels not so safe are the same people who end up goosestepping when the time comes.

This is not a slam to you just painfully different view points.

And I'm not slamming you...just expressing my opinion of what you have shared.

What's making it so painful, btw?

We opened up a youth center directly across the street along with a library. What happened more and more groups of kids are congregating on the corners and the gang signs are being painted.

How much time do YOU spend at the youth center helping kids with homework, listening to what their lives are like, being a safe adult friend?

I said it before and I'll say it again: it takes people who are FULLY VESTED in the future of the neighborhood to actually change a neighborhood.

If one is not willing to be FULLY VESTED in the future of a neighborhood, one cannot complain when the neighborhood goes to hell.

If a GANG member is not here legally, I would just as soon drive his azz back across the border myself -- but our cowardly ACLU would hire 45 lawyers to protect his "rights" which the illegals in effect gave up when they entered the country illegally.

I feel like jumping up with my hand raised in salute and yelling, "Sieg hiel!"

Oh...sorry...tripped for a minute there...

So, I am for locking them up, for breaking them up and for protecting me and mine anyway I have to.

Yep, you've made that perfectly clear.

At what point do you cross over that line of acceptable and unacceptable violen...ahem, 'protection'?

I salute your methods that you employed and they worked for you. I am not letting this take root, if I can help it.

You think I 'let it take root'? You think it hasn't taken root already in your neighborhood?

Dot, I'm gonna say this because I am concerned for you, not because I am being catty, OK?

So much of the trouble I read of you having is often due to what you don't understand. Maybe it is time for you to hear the universe speaking to you and encouraging you to learn about those who are different from you. Maybe you'll find yourself in more acceptable and comforting conditions.

Good for you. But I sure wish that my renters's son (who confronted the guys in the process of what looked like the beginning of the rape of a defenseless young woman) had had a gun. He just might still be here today. As it is the punk azz gangstahs "popped a cap in his azz", and now he is a worm farm somewhere in California. I say clean the scum out with deadly force. Use our Navy Seals here where we need them, and start exterminating the vermin. Mother rapers and father stabbers need to go.....

Jonny, at what point do you draw the line? Are you gonna go after the 'upstanding pillar of the community' who rapes the neighborhood kids? I sure didn't hear this sentiment out of you concerning Rich U. and those who protected/protect him...

rhino,

It's hard, no doubt. We still live in a pretty active 'gang' type area...nothing quite as bad as Topeka, though.

But you know what was harder for me? Living in white suburbia where there was no crime on the streets...it was all kept inside the homes, behind closed doors, secret and deadly.

CW, I'm wondering about your observations of these gangs you have lived in the midst of. Once you know them I'd guess you are accepted and not a threat. But is this a gang that does "bad stuff" to other people? I'm not opposed to friendly gangs, like Boy Scout troops or little league teams.

What are the solutions when the gangs are outside the law, and a danger to you or visitors to your home? The idea that the gang members are OK, as long as you don't cross them or stand up to them seems too submissive to me. I'm just wondering with gun toting, drug dealing, aggressive gang members.

The neighborhood we lived in in Topeka was the worst in town when we first moved in. The widows who lived on our block had nailed shut all their windows and all doors except one that was used for coming and going. They would not come out of their homes after dark. Nor would they participate in neighborhood activities of any kind.

When we moved to Topeka in '93, we were pulling up to our rented house at the same time that employees at the Federal Courthouse had been taken hostage. That evening, there were 4 arson fires on our block alone.

When we finally bought a home, it took only 2 days to realize that we were living in what we called, "Little Beirut". '94 was the year of the murders in Topeka...an average of more than 8 per month...in a town of 130,000. Per capita, Topeka ranked one of the highest cities for crime in the nation. And we lived right smack dab in the middle of it all. 3 blocks from the hospital and between the busiest north/south route in Topeka, sirens were going 24/7. Police helicopters circled most of the night looking for criminals. Neighbors had shootouts with each other and with the cops...the neighbors having semi-automatic military type weapons...the tracers going up and down Washburn Ave were pretty...if you didn't know what they were. The house we had in Topeka still has several .45 rounds in the front of it...and many more .38 and .22 rounds in other walls.

Not once did we own a gun.

We worked closely with the PD, the city council and the neighbors. Our neighborhood hosted a gang summit. We worked diligently to make the gangs unnecessary by meeting the physical, emotional, economical, and other needs of living life. It's a long and detailed story that spanned 7 years before we won back our neighborhood completely. It would be hard to put it all here in a post. I will say, though, that it took only about a year before the widows started coming out at night again and not only participating in neighborhood activities but hosting many at their own homes.

The most important step (after the violence has been settled down) you said in your post: "Once you know them I'd guess you are accepted and not a threat."

Oooo La La! The place looks pro fesh ee null! :)

Awesome job {{{{{all you who worked so hard}}}}}!

M13 spreads from El Salvador to LA...?????

My next door neighbors are straight from El Salvador. They bought the house next door the same week we bought our house.

They are tree men...which means they do tree trimming, tree removal, tree doctoring and all things tree. They did over $5000.00 worth of tree work for us at no charge just to be neighborly. We didn't even ask...and didn't know it was being done until we got home after an out of town trip and it was all done.

I know they have guns, too. When the American and white crack heads come down to our little paradise and want to turn tricks and blow crack and steal, our neighbors cap a few rounds in the dirt and chase them off.

I also know they run in big groups of 10 or more. In fact, sometimes there are 30 or more. And they're all carrying sharpened sticks and black 33 gallon garbage bags and spray paint cans. Oh, did I forget to say that these gang-like groups of El Salvadorans are cleaning up the neighborhood with those black sticks and garbage bags?

In fact, I would have to credit those gang-like El Salvadorans with getting rid of the real crime in our little neck of the woods.

We help them, too.

Maybe I'm an M13 and don't know it...????????

Although I do try to live in the real world most of the time...hehehe, wink, wink...I am still amazed when I hear that people had no etiquette training when growing up. Not because I judge, but because it was such a big deal in my life not only at home, but at school, church and all social functions. What I didn't get at home, I got in Brownies/Girl Scouts, Caravans (my church's equivalent to Girl Scouts), 4 years of Home Ec., and from friends who were shamed, just shamed, if someone's etiquette lacked (yep...snotty teen girls).

Yes, the point of etiquette is to feel comfortable and to make others feel comfortable. It's not to be better than, or to prove anything. Too often in twi, that's what happened, though.

I do know one point of etiquette in which twi failed miserably: graciousness towards others, and especially those perceived to be 'different'.

ANY etiquette teacher would be appalled at the way twi trashed the poor, the sick, the afflicted, the different. I never took Dorothy's etiquette classes, but I have to wonder if she ever touched on this form of etiquette?

4:30 this morning was like getting up in the bush in Alaska...cold, dark and running for the stove to get warm after coming out from under three comforters on the bed. Somebody had turned down the stove!!!!! (We don't use conventional central heat in our house...we use an old fashioned gas stove...one of those sitting in the middle of the room and can cook on the top type of things.)

Glad we didn't have to go out to the woodpile or outhouse!

Our street was nicely sanded, though. :)

I wish we'd get that big snowflake snow. These little things aren't as fluffy and are not as good to eat. When we lived in Alaska we learned how to make snow shakes...a big cup of fresh snow, packed pretty good into the cup, add chocolate syrup and milk. Mmmmmmmmmmmmm!

Just got a whole bunch of sleet that glazed the streets pretty well. Our neighbor just tried to get off our block...wasn't successful. Well, along about 10pm those street crews will be down here turning around and/or resting a spell. :) Guess I could take them some hot cocoa...?

In the meantime, I'm crocheting, reading/posting here, watching an odd movie, and staying warm with my hot cocoa. :) I LOVE winter!

I guess I've lived too many years on the wrong side of the tracks to comprehend this thread and the responses.