CoolWaters

The only bright spot about twi in Alaska was meeting and getting to know the S****s...who were both 0 and 1st corps...if I recall correctly...or he was both and she was 1st or something. Of all the people I ever knew in twi, this family was the family who lived what they believed. Very loving, giving, nurturing people. TWI was sucking them dry. Go figure.

I just think my bro is in danger and I don't know what to do about it.

This is a hard place to be, imo...loving someone and wanting to 'save them from the fire'...but not knowing how to help or what to do.

Sometimes there just isn't anything to do. Ya know? What could anybody have done about you being in twi?

It hurts, it's frustrating, it's angering, it's all that and then some.

In the end, though, it's his life.

Sux, huh?

:)

(What I'm about to relate to you has been related here a couple of times before...but I can't find it right now. So for those of you who have heard this a thousand times too many, ignore me. :) )

A few years ago my husband was in a horrible head-on collision. It took the fire dept. an hour of using the jaws of life to get him out of the car. All that was found in the ER was a bump on his noggin and a lacerated spleen. He was kept for observation and let out the next morning.

3 days later his spleen ruptured. We lived less than 3 blocks from the hospital at the time. On the drive over to the ER my husband blacked out twice. He was 'flat line' when they got him into the ER and hooked up to all the stuff. The x-rays showed that there literally was no spleen left...it had just exploded.

The ER surgeon was already in surgery so my husband had to wait what seemed like years before he was taken up to the OR for an emergency spleenectomy. Just before they took him up, the surgeon came to the ER and told me to gather my family together and say our goodbyes because he was sure my husband wasn't going to make it.

All of this just 2 weeks after my husband was released from the hospital after having his right kidney removed due to a football-sized cancerous mass on the kidney.

During this whole time we were in a splinter group. We had attended faithfully for a couple of years...through thick and thin, good weather and bad...even though it was a 63 mile drive one way. We tithed and then some. We participated and supported the 'pastors' in every way possible. The 'pastor' had loaned us some money for transportation to and from the hospital (which was 67 miles from home) when my husband had his kidney removed...and we paid him back 15-fold. We were good little believers...and we loved (still do) and trusted (don't now) our 'pastors' just like we were taught in twi...which is what was demanded of us in the splinter group. We believed they loved us.

So when my husband suddenly felt very ill and like he was having a heart attack, his first words were, "Call T** and get him to minister to me". To which I responded, "You call T** on the way to the car! You're going to the ER!"

Anyway, since the 'pastors' lived 63 miles away it was a couple of days before they were able to visit my husband...who had survived the surgery (much to the surgeon's surprise) and was in ICU but not out of the woods by a long shot. The surgeon was sure he was going to die. When the 'pastors' got to ICU, the husband (it was a man and wife 'pastor' team) freaked out and called me out into the hall and said, "I don't know what to do." The man didn't even want to go in and talk to my husband...or pray with him or anything.

I was shocked! I just told the 'pastors' to go on home...that I'd take care of my husband. They did...I did...and it was a couple of weeks before we heard from the 'pastors' again...when my husband was released to make the 63 mile one way trip.

By then I was exhausted. I had broken my own health taking care of my husband. My mental health wasn't doing well, either. So I turned to my 'pastors'...which would normally be the place to turn, wouldn't it? I asked them, "What are we doing wrong that all of this is happening to us? What have we done?" I was crying out from physical, mental and spiritual exhaustion.

The husband 'pastor' responded, "Well, anybody can see your life is s*it."

I was immediately plunged into a depression that ended up lasting about 5 years. That 'pastor's' pronouncement on my life was the last straw for me and I laid down to die...and nearly did. Many, many GSCers remember this time in my life and helped me through the darkest hours...and still help me through. Before it was all over I had gained about 200 lbs, was bed-ridden, had spent about 1/3 of 2 years in the hospital, and was...well...dying.

I'm telling you all of this detail so that you can see grasp what I'm going to say next.

Jesus promised his disciples that they would do greater things than even He had done...and they did. TWI taught that those 'greater things' were the 'manifestations'. Many fundamentalist groups rely on the laying on of hands for their 'miracles'. Most Christians think that because Jesus did things this way, we have to do things this way.

But think about this a minute.

Every minute of every day around the world somebody is brought back to life in an ER or a MASH unit or along side the highway or after being brought out of a burning home, or in some other setting where death should have happened...maybe even did happen...but life was received.

And it was received by technology and knowledge used by schooled/trained medical professionals.

Smallpox and polio are prevented by a series of immunizations.

'Issues of the blood' are treated and cured with medicines.

Are these things not greater things than Jesus did?

And add to these things prayer? Wow! What awesomeness!

I leave you with a joke of sorts:

A poor man who worked long and hard all of his life in a back breaking job just couldn't take it any longer. "God!" he prayed in his moments of despair, "Let me win the lottery!"

After years of this desparate prayer in his desperate life, the man finally died poor and broken.

When he got to heaven he went right up to God and demanded, "God! I prayed and prayed all of those years that You would let me win the lottery. But here I am dead and that prayer never answered. Why, God? Why?"

God replied, "My son, you never bought a lottery ticket."

Use the things available to you. Use them all if need be. Prayer works. 'Believing' works. Going to the doctor works. Usually they all work together.

:)

Here's my greeting, dude! http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=12372

Dude! Back in the day...

Sigh.

But we're here now and oh wow!

Happy Birthday!

Often when people relate how bad twi teachings/demands caused trouble in their lives, somebody says something like, "You had your own mind. Why didn't you think for yourself?"

I've argued and screamed at and ignored and whatever when I've come up against this mentality. All to no avail...the chastiser always bottoms lines it all to blaming me for not using my own mind.

But I did use my own mind.

In my mind, being told I wasn't up to snuff was normal. I had grown up with it. By the time I was 16yo and twi came into my life, it was nothing to accept that kind of treatment from those in twi.

In my mind, sexual perversion was normal. I had grown up with it. By the time twi came into my life it was nothing to accept that kind of activity inside twi.

In my mind, gawd awmighty was a two-timing, backstabbing sonuvabeeyach who raped, beat, lied, and fornicated on a regular basis. I had grown up with that gawd. By the time twi came into my life it was nothing to accept twi's version of that gawd.

I could go on but I won't.

TWI said it had answers for people like me. I wanted those answers because nothing else in my life had worked. It was nothing for twi to take my innocent heart of trust and turn my life into a living hell.

The point here is that I trusted twi. When I gave my trust to twi, twi took that trust and made me pay for it over and over and over again.

I used my own brain...used what I knew...to judge twi's 'wisdom'.

But wtf did I know?

I just got back from the Doctrinal forum and want to add this:

Not until I found true kindness...you know...the fruit of the spirit...did I begin to heal from the false kindness of twi...and other influences in my life.

I now attend a church where true kindness lives. It's changing my life, but it's slow going.

One big difference between true kindness and false kindness is that true kindness attaches no expectations.

The 80's huh? You're remembering the 80's?

Here's what twi was in the 80's for me and mine and some others: http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=4233

All 9 all the time, huh? If you're talking about getting all 9 kids in CF to do the nasty with the leadership all the time...yeah...twi got that right...

Oh gosh. I know how much little Scamps means to you and Annie! My heart and prayers are still in that boy's court. :)

Kindness was so much a part of the con that I have been unable to accept kindness at face value. Just today at church a friend said, "Oh I'll bet it was so hard to be around such awful people all the time!" My response was, "Actually, most of the people were decent and sweet on the surface. It was so much the sweetness of sheep in wolf's clothing that it scares the crap out of me when people are nice to me even now."

Oh no! Scamps is a sweet, sweet little guy who brings lots of joy into people's lives.

Adding my prayers...for Scamps, Annie and Bow.

The price I paid was three severely abused children whose adult lives are a wreak, and the realization that no matter what I do or say I can never restore that which is irretrievably broken, or ever realistically have any kind of a none adversarial relationship with any of them.

Although I cannot address your specific situation, tl, I can share with you a couple of things...

A friend of mine was raised in a closed, fundamentalist/pentecostal church. She was sexually abused by her father and 3 brothers from the time she can remember. Being the only girl, she was also physically abused by her brothers. She started putting on weight at 3 yo.

Fast forward to about 14 years ago when she attempted to kill her 6yo son because she fully believed that he would be safer in heaven. Her parental rights were severed and her son was adopted out. Sentenced to 2 years in prison, she gave birth to a little boy in prison. The state promptly took custody of the baby and adopted him out. A few years later, she birthed a stillborn little girl.

About 4 or 5 years ago, her first son moved in with her and has been living with her ever since.

He's not a 'bad boy' at all. Very polite, quiet, works full time, all that. He has his moments, though...as we all do.

The hardest thing for my friend about this situation is forgiving herself. Although her son never says anything, he does allow her to wallow in guilt and, therefore, he doesn't pay rent, buy food, do chores, etc.

Now to how things have turned out for me...

As you know (and as many here know), my daughter has struggled monstrously since her way daze. Sex, drugs, alcohol, promiscuity, violence, rage at me, all of it that defines the behavior of many adult survivors of severe childhood abuse.

Well, I fought my daughter's 'tude for many years. It drove her far from me.

A few years ago, I quit fighting her.

Last week I had the opportunity to move to AZ. When I told my daughter this she said, "No! You can't go! You're my mommy and I need you! You've helped me so much and have been there for me and I'm just getting to know you!"

So although it looks dismally improbable, it is not impossible or even unknown that parents and children do find a place of peace and loving goodness with one another.

My only hope in saying this is to possibly give you a bright spot to hang onto.

But I have to ask myself - "if not for TWI and the environment and teachings of same--would things have ever gotten to the extremes that they did?"

And the answer is NO-- I Know what kind of person I was before TWI and I know the kind of person I became after I left TWI--I re found the self that was before TWI.

TWI was a Physical and Mental Torture chamber that turned parents from their children instead of towards them. That in itself should be warning enough For the Bible says "turn the hearts of the fathers toward their children" What TWI taught was in direct contradiction to this--and apparently things haven;t changed all that much

Yeah. Sigh. Yeah.

Late on this thread, but praying anyway.

Sushi, stop it!

My heart's deepest condolences to Wanda and all of Pat's family and friends.

Yes, Pat fought the good fight...because he loved people and hated to see people getting hurt and/or suffering.

So often he was suffering and hurt himself, but he kept on keeping on...finally to the point that I was afraid to call him because it seemed that after every conversation he found new ways to help others while forgetting to help himself.

Pat, keep in touch. :)

I ask God to look out for them and their well being.

I no longer ask for his wrath upon them

That does not mean that they are now, nor very likely will they ever be, an integral part of my life.

I think this best describes what I've come to understand as honest forgiveness.

I also think this is where many people who profess religion get things mixed up...at least in twi it was pretty mixed up...and I always got it mixed up until very, very recently.

Let it go does not equate to invite the people back into one's life.

That was a hard lesson for me to learn. I just didn't get it. It was either not forgive and keep people away or forgive and roll over for them. What my life ended up being like because of this black-and-white thinking was that I had way too many people in my life that shouldn't have been...and I know many people feel the same way towards me.

But that's OK. Ya know? Some people are just not a good mix. They feed each other's addictions. Or they bring out the worst in each other. Or they in some other way interact in unhealthy ways.

I didn't know that for all these years. I knew it in my head, but I didn't get it.

Now that I get it I find it much easier to forgive...honestly forgive. Because I don't have to worry about the next time the stuff might fly.

Ya know?

The last 3 weeks my pastor has focused on forgiveness. It was eye-opening to me.

BikerBabe made the same distinction my pastor made: forgive does not equal forget. Especially concerning those with whom we have some sort of a relationship. There is a responsibility of boundaries. (Aha! That subject has come up on these boards before! :) )

One is NOT biblically required to forget as part of forgiveness.

For those with whom we no longer have some sort of relationship, the forgiving is primarily for our own wholeness...so we don't carry around bitterness and wrath and all that stuff.

If R.U. (the pedophile who was the scourge of Anchorage for a while) were to come to my door naked, hungry, thirsty and/or homeless, no way in hell would I let him in my door. I'd toss out a sheet for him to wrap himself in, point to the water hose, and then call the police and ask them to escort him to the nearest shelter.

So often the need to forgive and/or to be forgiven arises from not having clear boundaries in the first place...we make our own messes.

I always seek to forgive or be forgiven.

I used to always seek to reconcile. Not any longer, though. Reconciliation is not always important or in the best interest of either party.

Forgiveness is about recognizing what one has been forgiven for, not about making nice.

Cohen is a whole lot better to look at than vpw or lcm...which means that if he pulls any of the same crap with women, the women will be less likely to be believed. Sigh.

Not too long ago I left a church because of something very similar.

Don't touch me unless I invite you to touch me. We'll all be happier.

Isn't that what they teach children nowadays? Why does growing up have to mean accepting of such deplorable 'affection'?

Just put up 4 new animations in the gallery for y'all's enjoyment.

TYVM Suda! I put some more up today. Did another animation, too. Working on a couple of more animations. It was such fun!

There are some new pics up now. I'll work on getting more up tomorrow. The first one is an animation, so let it load...and read it! LOL

I am with you in my heart all the way! Take advantage of all they have to offer...and enjoy yourself. :D

I will PM you my telephone number and email address.

T-Bone wow!!!!!! Exactly what I was trying to say...except couldn't get it out quite that way. LOL

GREAT sharing!!!!

Abi...yeah...that magical thinking is usually something we grow out of at about 9 or 10...so it would send alarm warnings to someone like your mom.

Bliss...yep...I get ya. :)

For the record, I am not blaming twi for anything. IMO, twi attracted people who were already into some thinking patterns that were questionable. (Not to say that these are the only type of people twi attracted.)

What I am saying with this thread is that twi fostered instability.

The very first thinking pattern taught, beaten into our brains, expected and exalted that leads to instability is the Believing=Receiving thought pattern.

I've discussed this before but can't find the thread...but it's magical thinking at best...delusions of grandeur at worst.

The very idea that one can control the world around one simply by thinking one way or another is not of sound mind.

It leads to manipulation, denial, hypervigilence, paranoia and a whole host of unstable thought patterns.

Then there's the whole 'devil spirit', 'seed boy', 'dealing with the adversary' mentality.

Always, always, always there was something out to get one if one followed twi's mentality on the 'spiritual competition'.

Of course, this is not exclusive to twi. While I was in the hospital I happened to mention to a nurse how I am seeing more clearly the verse John 17:3. This mere mention of a bible verse gave, in her mind, this nurse the permission to 'preach deliverance' to me. She spent the next 1/2 hour telling me how the devil was out to get me and that's why my life was so marred. That "He" (meaning the devil) didn't want me to step into God's service, so "He" had my father kill my mother, had the state adopt me and my sister into a physically and sexually abusive home, and put a cult (twi) in my path to dissuade me from serving God. Then she handed me hard copies of some sermons by Joyce Meyer. I told her that I can take Joyce only in small doses because she sounds so much like the cult. The nurse went off about how she was "getting vibes" from me about "the devil". (What kind of psych nurse acts like this, anyway?)

Come on! Can anybody get more tweaky? Not imo.

Then there's the idea in twi that we were the 'elite', the creme de la creme of God's Chosen People.

This thought pattern was so deeply entrenched in our minds that many, many of us still have a hard time attending church...or listening to anybody else teach or preach the bible.

It has been said (by me, at least...and I've heard it from televangelists) that in this day and age, Jesus would be considered mentally ill.

Well, I'm not going to go so far as to say that he was.

What I do think now is that if Jesus was who he said he was, and if he did what he was born to do, then fine. So why, then, are there so many people who believe that Jesus didn't do enough, isn't here to do more, and that one must try one's best to live up to the standard of Jesus?

Seriously. If Jesus was who he said he was, it's impossible for mere humans to follow in his steps...or, as twi taught, take his place. To even try is an effort in futility...even according to the bible. (Our mind is an enmity against God and such other verses.)

Did Jesus do a complete job? If so, then one must simply accept the gift...and stop trying to 'perfect' it.

There's a whole lot more I'm thinking, but I just wanted to get the conversation started.

Thank you.

At this point I need to bow out of this thread.

I have deeply appreciated a majority of the comments and thank each of you for your willingness to discuss this topic, and especially to those of you who have shared some of your personal journeys.