CoolWaters

Taking a class has nothing to do with a trigger; it is an option to learn nothing more nothing less. And it is not always due to some thing going on in your life. It could be. It could not be, maybe one just wants to learn more about the Bible? Their life may be just fine,

Lovey Dovey,

After a certain age, almost everything one does in life is a trigger response. Some people call it being set in one's ways. Other people call it personal style. Still others call it reliable. Even others call it leopards not changing their spots. (Edited right here! OMG! I originally said stripes!!!! I'm so dingy sometimes! LOL)

Triggers are neither good nor bad in and of themselves...they are simply shortcut responses to familiar territory. The problems usually lie in what particular shortcut one chooses. For example, a person who has money troubles and steals to solve those troubles is choosing one sort of shortcut response. Another person, however, who has money troubles and chooses to work an extra job to solve those troubles is choosing a different shortcut response. The trigger is the same: money troubles. The shortcut response is what is different. See?

As I said, in light of the whole CES/STFI mess, these questions came to my mind when I saw that a person who hasn't been out of twi for very long has questions about an offshoot class. Had this person not been involved in twi and down the path of classes and such, the questions would be...odd.

Anyway, anybody who had been involved in twi for more than 5 mins or so after taking piffle is totally overloaded with 'biblical knowledge', imo. Taking more classes when the basics are not mastered is like eating when not hungry imo. Why do it? (If I had the answer, btw, I wouldn't asking the question...or still be fat. :) )

Your responses are great responses...for those who were not deeply involved in a cult. But...

**********************

Bow,

Looking back on that particular week through the eyes of a professional, highly skilled therapist, I have come to understand why that week happened in my life at all...

And it wasn't all so much fun for me in the end...which reinforces my questions...imo.

Also, I had read your other post about offshoots and classes and stuff, so I was kinda cheating here in this thread...trying to answer both posts without answering in both threads. Maybe I should have said that.

i think that perhaps the saying that "the map is not the same as the territory"

in an important thing to understand for those who want to live according to any scriptures

whether it is christian, buddhist, psychologist, astrophysicist, ecologist, politician, atheist, etc...

This was one of the first things I realized when dealing with twi mentality years and years ago. OH! I was sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo hated!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:D :D :D :D

**************************

Something a friend of mine said to me that was absolutely earth shattering in my life at the time...

(a little background story has to go with this to understand it I think)

She and I were talking about this guy who got mad at his wife, went out walking around in the downtown area to find a couple of women to bring home with him, ended up running into some quite questionable characters who got the big idea to scare this guy's wife by saying they were moving in and putting her out on the street. This guy paid them each $5 to do this to his wife.

To elicit sympathy and engender enthusiasm in these women, this guy had told these women all sorts of stories about how his wife had kept him locked in the basement and all sorts of crazy things.

As my friend and I were talking about this situation I asked her friend, "What kind of a woman would do such a thing?" To which she replied, "I don't know. Maybe we all would at one point or another." I asked, "Really? You would do such a thing? You would take five bucks to go screw with a woman and scare her into thinking you were going to forcefully put her out of her own home?"

She responded, "Well, back when I was not doing well mentally and emotionally, yes. I would have felt sorry for the man and would have tried to save him from his horrible wife. But that was back when I thought that saving others was the only way to save myself."

Wow!

It was a major paradigm shift in my thinking!

All of my life I felt that I was 'called' to help 'save' people...either as a preacher or a doctor or a therapist or a combination of these things. When twi came along with all of the answers, well, it was a natural for me...in more ways than one...no pun intended.

But when my friend made that statement I suddenly realized IT IS NOT MY JOB OR PLACE TO BE SAVING ANYBODY.

Wow!

Suddenly I knew beyond the shadow of a doubt that my biggest mistake in religion had always been this idea that it was somehow my responsibility to save me or save others.

And the point of saying all of this is that I now see how so many 'religious' people get into the same old traps because they are trying to save the world and, therefore, save themselves.

With this kind of thinking, fanaticism, extremism, and a whole lot of other damaging stuff becomes the norm.

So introduce dreams and 'prophecies' and such...things that cannot be proven right or wrong except with time...which often means it's too late to undo the damage done...well...it all goes whacko as we all try to do what we aren't supposed to do and couldn't possibly do if it were our job.

Bottom line...

I think that most of what is coming to light concerning these things is that people's lives have run amok and instead of learning from their god/goddess/whatever, they took their old, broken, wrong understandings and became a savior in their own minds.

Or they've flipped out.

Which is the same in the end, isn't it?

Oh so much reading! I'm loving this conversation. :)

I'm gonna zig and then zag back to the topic at hand...so try to follow along...if I'm making sense...if not...don't follow along...or whatever...I just don't wanna be a twig leader, OK???????????? :)

Back when I took piffle (the one and only time I took it, too...which will be 30 years ago this coming March...so maybe I don't remember so good...) I remember the 'my people are destroyed for a lack of knowledge' part. The reason I remember it is that is the point I always walked out (3 or 4 times, as a matter of fact, before I could make myself sit through the whole class). It was the thing vp did with the logic. How he said that it was not a lack of knowledge of worldly stuff, but a lack of knowledge of da verd.

That gritched on me because I saw a closed thought process being introduced...and closed thought processes lead to closed minds lead to intolerance lead to hate lead to war lead to...well, you know.

The concept of prophecy and dreams and visions and such stuff is, really, mental gymnastics at best...diagnosable psychiatric conditions at worst.

So why is this stuff in the bible?

I dunno. Really, I don't.

BUT...

This trend towards dreams, visions and prophecies is talked about in the bible in a light not typically understood:

And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: Acts 2:17 KJV

Typically, this verse is seen as a promise or a sign that the end times are at hand and God's spirit is working double-time in His people.

But look at it again.

That passage is a direct quote from Joel 2...which is about the wrath of God...and the passage quoted above starts out in Joel with "AFTERWARD".

To me, it does not appear that "AFTERWARD" has come yet.

So whaddup?

I think that the lack of knowledge of anything outside of certain paradigms concerning the bible is whaddup.

Can't see the forest for the trees.

....ing against the wall.

Kicking against the pricks.

Or something...

Because outside of certain paradigms concerning the bible, the whole world gets it about dreams, visions and prophecies: the whole world gets it that these things are personal and NOT for the whole body or even a certain group or couple of friends.

And this would be painfully obvious if people would take the time to educate themselves beyond their own closed-mindedness.

I'm not pointing fingers...because I'm just now working out of my own false paradigms that led me to closed-mindedness.

So what I'm trying to say is that whenever a subject is taken and study from only one set of paradigms, the 'knowledge' gained is extremely limited and often flat out wrong. People end up becoming wise fools.

When wise fools take it upon themselves to control the lives of others...

Well, we all know what happens.

I so whole-heartedly agree that it would behoove anybody who had any position of authority in twi to TAKE ABOUT 10 YEARS OFF from 'leadership' to reevaluate themselves, their thought processes, their belief systems, etc.

Because of the discussions going on concerning CES/STFI, this thread caught my attention.

I have some questions that ARE NOT pointed towards any one person, ARE NOT a judgement of anybody, and ARE NOT meant to be combative. The ARE, however, questions that I have learned to ask myself when I am entertaining thoughts about spiritual choices, fellowship choices, biblical learning choices, etc.

What is it about classes that is so attractive?

Why a twi spinoff?

What is one looking for from a class that one cannot get on one's own or some other way?

After the twi experience and experiences recorded here with offshoots, what is going on in one's life that makes that 'take a class' trigger start itching?

Just these for now.

What would be the matter with getting some Christain education somewhere, leaving all the splashy hocus pocus behind, shutting down, and moving on ?

What is the appeal of these self ordained groups, with no roots at all, (other than cultic) that claim to speak for God and always end up in hot water.

I dont see it.

I would hope after being around the same block (twice!!), that they may finally wake up and shut it down, and do their personal searching elsewhere realizing that they have spent the greater parts of their lives plowing a road to nowhere.

In John's words to us--Its time to come down off their throne and "get a life"

Yeah! What you said. It bears repeating.

You've just pretty closely described the church I attend now. Which, btw, is where I'm seeing the most actual healing from twi and other stuff in my life.

Hmmmm!

I've been thinking a whole lot about just how these folks got so far gone down the path of this 'personal prophecy' and dreams stuff...

As many of you know, I've taken a trip down many, many different spiritual paths after dumping false Christianity and starting all over again with my beliefs...settled into the path of Shaman...am finding a truer (am not gonna claim to have found 'the truth') path of Christianity.

One of the things that earmark a path of Shaman is the point of 'ecstasy'. Many associate this with a drugged state. Although there are lots of Shaman who use drugs to reach ecstasy, I don't and never did. It's not necessary. Anyway, ecstasy is really just a trance state.

The most repeated, most emphatic warning to me as I was learning about Shaman was, "Don't get caught up in the ecstasy state!"

It was hard not to do that, though! It's still difficult not to opt for a state of trance when the crap hits the fan...ya know? BUT I've learned not to do that.

OK, so anyway, a couple of things I want to point out about my travels down different paths: 1)although I didn't recognize it at the time, my heart was to find Jesus, so my travels led to Jesus...every time...that's a biblical promise...seek and you shall find, etc., and Jesus said He would never, never leave us, and, 2)I learned (and am still learning) the difference between physical/emotional ecstasy and spiritual communion.

The reason I want to make these 2 points is that although my method may have been questionable, where I ended up was finding a deeper, more personal relationship with Jesus...because that was what I was looking for in the first place.

Because of this, I wonder if CES leaders who ended up finding the crap that's been posted here were ever looking for Jesus or God in the first place.

So how do folks end up so far gone? Is it as simple as they found what their hearts were looking for? I dunno.

But I think that this is a worthy discussion...considering we've all been down a path or two that did not lead to Jesus or God, but misery and pain and all sorts of crap.

And for those who don't follow a particularly Christian or religious path at all...

I'm cool with that, but I think that the question must be asked in the context of Christianity...since CES claims Christianity.

But maybe I'm wrong there, too.

Anyway, let's talk about this, shall we?

Oh lawd gawd awmighty puhleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeezzzzzzzzzzeeeeeeeeee let's just let this get swept up under CES's BOD and KEEP IT ALL PRIVATE.

Yeah...

That's the ticket...

While we're at it, let's close down GSC...

:unsure: <_< :wacko:

OK, David...Hap...

A whole lot of my input here comes from the recent recognization of something about the cult addiction that I've had in my life.

If I'm coming off argumentative, I don't mean to...but I do mean to come off blunt. Too often I have couched my words here only to find myself in a bigger mess than if I had just come out and said what I was thinking just like I was thinking it.

As for CES et al...I saw all of this coming...even visited people's homes and spent many hours on the telephone with people who were shredded by these 'personal prophecies'...have been ripped a new in the extwi online communities for blaring out the warning claxon.

I still don't get, a)why rebuild babylon, and, b)why so shocked when the tower is tossed down?

Usually (not always...but usually) when I have said, "I apologize if..." I am thinking either, a)I didn't do what I am being accused of doing, b)that the person wasn't offended or hurt in any way but is demanding an apology just to be 'right', or c)it's a preemptive apology.

But I've learned a thing or two about apologizing in the last few weeks...and I'm not apologizing just for apology's sake any longer...so I may not say "I aplogize if..." any longer.

correct CW your analysis that there is not a shred of evidence of good fruit is your opinion. Thank you for that explanation..

An organization CAN be an assist to individuals seeking growth and truth. That same Jesus you alluded to as setting the standard himself formed an organization of 12 apostles. I missed the new bible that must have come out after our TWI experience where God forbade organizations and instructed us to be islands unto Him.

~HAP

You're being funny, right? Or do you think I'm too stupid to grasp that there can be fruitful organizations?

Dooj -- I (for one) won't beat you.

Yea -- I am saddened by those who have never had anything to do with CES,

making comments detrimental to the heart of those who started it.

If you've never heard BB King play, but are a fan of the blues --

(please) don't offer a commentary on his rendition thereof.

Same thing -- you know not whereof you speak.

I for one am glad this came out in the open, as I had no idea about it.

And yes -- I can do without all the *snide* comments about CES,

and the cheap comparisions made to twi.

I've got a long, long history with JAL...from waaaaaaaaaaaaay back when he was NY limb leader....even did the only actual extwi interview of JAL when CES was very young...and CES was the first place I turned when I found out there were twi splinter groups. I have friends whose lives were nearly ruined by CES and/or CES 'affiliate fellowships'. I have personal, long-term, up close experience with CES 'ministers'.

I'm speaking from experience.

bah humbug, CW, I DO hope you are not callling those who have enjoyed and learned good stuff from those who minister under the CES/STF banner bad fruit? Say what you want, but I have seen good fruit from this ministry, so would this mean then that there can't be "bad fruit"? It would seem so from your narrow interpretation of a single verse.

FWIIW, I have often heard those who have contact with STF speak in loving ways of having a relationship with Jesus, unlike when they were involved with TWI. CW, you speak wrongly on this subject as it pertains to many of the people who receive some of their information from STF.

For others, it seems "tis the season to rejoice" in the troubles of someone else, because they are not your troubles, perhaps. 10 pages on this thread already? Is "THE's" longstanding record at risk? nah, a month ago most here could not have cared less about CES or STF. this too will pass, probably after the "spiritual" holiday.

HAP

No, Hap, I'm not. I am calling what the organization is producing bad fruit.

For me there is no doubt whatsover that CES was NOT originated at the hearkening of the Lord, but as a kneejerk reaction by a bunch of folks who were used to having power and authority in an organization and simply did not know what to do with themselves without power and position in an organization.

You may have seen good fruit in people's lives who were involved in the organization, but there's not one shred of evidence that the organization has anything but bad fruit.

This is where people got screwed up in twi...

Confusing the organization with people's walks.

It is this confusion that keeps people bound into the error of twi...

People go running around looking for the organizational stuff...

The twigs, the ROA, the teachings, etc.

Of course, this is all my opinion...which is pretty much worth nothing to anybody but myself...and the value to myself is minimal. It's just something I don't get...why rebuild babylon?

Cool Waters. It seems to me that you have concluded that CES has ignored Jesus. I don't know where you got your information, But I had a long conversation with JAL when he was still running the organization, and he spoke of Jesus all of the time. And he made a point of telling me that The Way Ministry essentially ignored the life of Jesus Christ, and that we should not. He then went on a long description about how if Jesus is seated at the right hand of God, ever making intercession for us, then maybe we should take some time to talk to him, and thank him for what he'd done. All those years in The Way, and we ignored Jesus...."

And so, it seems to me that JAL had something (if not alot) to do with Jesus in his days back when he talked to me. And didn't JAL start CES? It's my thinking that he did...

And so Jeff and Richncrispy, what do you know of CES and our Lord Jesus Christ? Do/did they teach about our Lord?

There is only one biblical standard of determining what Jesus means to people...and Jesus Himself set the standard: THE FRUIT.

The CES/STFFI tree is bearing bad fruit...

Jesus says a tree cannot bear both good and bad fruit.

This is Christianity 101...the survey course...what's so hard about it?

Oh yeah...

It's the course twi et al hacked to pieces and relegated to the 'archives' of possibly good for knowledge but nothing else.

The subject at hand...

Repeating destructive behavior...

That was the subject I was headed for with this thread...

And it all started on the CES thread in the Open forum...

And I guess I'm over there for a few now...

......Which is why I say, there but for the grace of God go any of us.

I went there...in twi...and all the reasoning, all the 'think no evil', all the 'pull a brother out of the fire', all the trite cliches that kept me in twi even years and years after I was physically out...all that whole insanity I am seeing repeated right here on this thread.

What I finally had to learn is that as long as that damned tree was in my eye, I couldn't even fathom the mote in anybody else's eye.

IT IS NOT A HELP OR EVEN CHRISTIAN WISDOM TO SAVE SOMEBODY ELSE WHILE ONE IS FLOATING ON TURDS.

People don't change...organizations don't get better...when crap is mistaken for cream.

And how many times can one make such a mistake before it is evident that one prefers the crap to the cream?

How did it come to this??

Absent Jesus Absent Jesus Absent Jesus Absent Jesus Absent Jesus Absent Jesus Absent Jesus Absent Jesus Absent Jesus Absent Jesus Absent Jesus Absent Jesus Absent Jesus Absent Jesus Absent Jesus Absent Jesus

Once Jesus is out of the picture the only thing it can come to is this...confusion, fear, accusation (hmmm...Jesus is our mediator before God and satan is our accuser before God....hmmmm), sorrow, shame, etc.

Knowing the bible, knowing how to research the bible, knowing how to teach the bible, making the bible your center reference for truth, the bible the bible the bible the bible the bible blah de blah de blah blah blah...

Ever learning and never coming to the knowledge of the truth...

It's the word, the word and nothing but the word...

But it's not God's Word Jesus.

Buy a vowel (not you outofdafog...people in general).

Pick a different door.

The sand upon which CES (and all other offshoots) is built was shifting quicksand in the first place...could never be made into solid rock.

Why the hell do people STILL...after all these years of trancenet, WayDale, GSC, etc...STILL think that just a little tweaking here and there and twi would have been just fine???????????????

Why the hell are people STILL SURPRISED when SHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIT comes out of the sewer??????????

It took me years to finally see this stuff...even when I was being banned from the odd list for going 'round and 'round with JAL over this crap years ago...I still had a friggin' way tree growing in my eye.

So I'm not ranting AT anybody...but ABOUT the crap that keeps floating to the top and calling itself cream.

Non-profit status only means that there is no profit ONLY because the profit is being funneled back into the organization...not because no profit was made.

The requirement for non-profits concerning how much money is spent on actual services is 5% (last I knew, anyways)...the rest can be used towards 'administrative' costs (salaries, travel costs, buildings/building maintenance/rent/lease/etc, office supplies/equipment/furniture/plants etc, clothing, cosmetics, hair styling, medical expenses, etc).

The typical non-profit organization in America has bragging rights if 30% or more of their 'donations' are spent on actual services.

I'm not a fan of non-profit organizations.

Neither am I a fan of allegedly Christian 'teaching' organizations that do not include several 'courses' on how to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, give drink to the thirsty.

Been there, done that, and tweren't nothing to do with nothing Christian.

Folks, that is NOT "a" defintion of insanity, much less "the" definition. It was a quip, with a context.

:blink: It's not? :blink:

:ph34r:

Hmm.. doing the same old things, expecting different results

You do realize of course that that is the definition of insanity?

Uhhhhhhhhhhhh...yes...which is why I used it as the topic of this thread...

From that file you posted, CC, it seems that more than one has flown over that cuckoo's nest...

These people need psychiatric care as much, if not more, than prayer.

The CES/STFI thread got to me...then I read some other threads with the same undercurrent...and had a tiffany. ('Tiffany' is my replacement word for 'epiphany'...because I got bored with using the same word over and over again...and it's just more fun, imo.)

So much of my post twi life has been wasted trying to find those things I found once upon a time in twi. Things like...

the close-knit 'family' feeling of a twig...

the 'hot bible' teachings, research and studies...

the ability to 'rightly divide' the 'word'...

the 'walking in power'...

the comfort of 'knowing that I know that I know'...

the lofty goal of 'word over the world'...

the 'signs, miracles and wonders'...

And all of the things that are commonly cited as to why a person ever got involved in twi in the first place.

Then along came the tiffany...

None of these things have squat to do with Jesus.

No matter how I defend my 'heart for God', if I had left this life and faced Jesus during that time, I would not have been able to stand up to what HE has told me HE is going to ask me when I finally do stand before HIM: Did you feed, clothe or give drink to the stranger?

That is the bottom line of Christianity in JESUS' words.

All of my running after twi, twi offshoots, churches/fellowships/organizations that came close to what I learned and experienced in the 'good old twi days'...

All of that was nothing but 'having itching ears', 'ever learning and never coming to a knowledge of the truth', 'heaping unto myself teachers', 'worshipping the creature more than the creator'. Etc.

Once that tiffany went off in my head, I was finally able to see why I was so dissatisfied with my life, why I could not find comfort and belonging in other churches/fellowships/organizations, why I ignored my heart to run after the familiar, why I allowed my life to get so muddled with crisis after crisis. Etc.

I was doing the same old thing expecting different results...

And that same old thing was, simply, thinking that it isn't all as simple as it is.

TWI, twi offshoots...anything even remotely like twi...is, never was and never will be anything more or less than an orgy of self-serving self-righteousness.

My soul was never going to be satisfied feasting upon my own self-serving self-righteousness.

In my opinion...and note that I have not said my opinion is humble or should be anybody else's opinion or should have any sway over anybody else's life...

When one who has come out of twi can spend the better part of an hour reading through at least a dozen pages of a web site produced by an allegedly Christian ministry without ever once coming upon 'how to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, give drink to the thirsty', one would be wise to remember twi and its heritage of an absent Jesus.

IOW...

Can't find Jesus in the website, why would you expect to find Jesus in the people?

SOSDD.

Of course it's gonna go down the Way of the Way.

IMO.

The struggle to get that evil twi thinking pattern about health out of one's brain is a long, difficult struggle for many.

I think of Pat Roberge...especially when it comes to diabetes. He often told me that he knew twi was praying for his death. He said that he got many emails and messages from twit brains saying this to him! Although he valiently fought the mentality, it ate at him often. I cry to think of how he spent so much of his energy getting that twi crap out of his head when he needed his energy to heal.

Even now...all these years out of twi and a twi splinter group...my healing process is slowed fighting off the echos of their evil curses.

I'm going to put on some music and breathe through my nausea now...

{{{{Watered Garden}}}}

As I read your post I identified with so much of it!!!!! That part about dying...omg...some of my thoughts exactly!!!!

What a horrible nightmare of a crappy little cult of wannabes we were in!

I take liberties with a popular bumper sticker to say: No Jesus, know twi. Know Jesus, no twi.

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...the diabetic holiday meals...

Use Splenda to replace sugar (replacement values usually on package), carob to replace chocolate, yogurt to replace butter/mayo/salad dressing (plain yogurt is great when properly spiced...try it for making ranch dressing...mmmm!), al dente veggies for noodles, etc.

I LOVE dilled carrots...but to get the dill weed to stick to them I thought I had to use butter/margarine...but a touch of olive oil will do the trick.

Another fave dish of mine is southern green beans...you know them...lots of bacon, butter, onions and almond slices. Replace the bacon with bacon bits (they are strongly flavored and don't cook well...so add them in the serving bowl and not too many!) and replace the butter with a dash or two of herbed olive oil. The almond slices are fine...but don't overdo.

Most health food stores that have a deli will have some very yummy tofu dishes that you would never know were tofu. I usually buy a couple of teaspoonfuls just to get the package for the ingredient list...then make my own at home.

Most of the problems with meals lie in sauces/dressings, breads/starches and desserts. Sauces and dressings are most often used for flavor. The flavor can come from herbs and spices as a way to reduce calories/fat. Reducing portion sizes on the breads and replacing ground flour with whole grain flour types of breads will do the trick. Other starches (taters, noodles, etc.) can easily be replaced with veggies. I love using egg plant and italian squash (the long, green squash that is also called that word starting with 'z' that I can't spell lol) for noodles. Although baby pumpkin squash (the little white pumpkins...don't want them yellow or orange because then they are woody) are a starch, they are a great tater replacement for awesome mashed taters! Just boil the heck out of them whole and they almost mash up themselves...which is how you know they're done. :) See above for some dessert alternatives.

To find some of the most awesome low fat, low sodium, low carb, low calorie recipes I suggest doing a search for diabetic recipes.

Have fun! The creative cook in ourselves shines brightly when faced with such challenges. IMO. :)