CoolWaters
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karmicdebt,
That link you posted leads to some very interesting questions about Paul...some of the very same questions I had over 18 months ago. I took my questions to my pastor (an extwi corpse person who mimics twi in every way possible). Instead of going through my questions with me, he mocked me and belittled me.
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Since twi (and PFAL by inference...because PFAL was the indoctrination tool of twi) based its beliefs on an "absent christ", it is especially interesting to note that in PFAL it was encouraged to "read only the epistles for the next 3 months" and "you will not know your own life" (or something to that effect). In the branch where I was involved immediately after taking PFAL, it was common for the response to any question to be, "Have you read the epistles for 3 months? No? Then your questions are not valid because you don't have enough word in your mind to understand the answers."
I've always felt that Paul departed from the teachings of Jesus. Looking back, it makes sense that PFAL would lead to a departure from Jesus.
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Originally posted by Steve Lortz:I don't believe the Word of God uses "spirit" to refer to the substance of some mystical, other "realm"...The idea of a natural realm/spiritual realm dichotomy doesn't come from the Word of God.
Oh boy. Now I am really confused. Are you saying that it is inherent error to separate a "spiritual" realm from a "natural" realm?
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P.S. - If we read back through this thread, I think we'll see that my posts have been more consistently on topic than many of the others, and my posts have been the result of intelligent reflection, not knee-jerk emotional responses.
Ayup!
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Isn't the body/soul/spirit thing a basic PFAL teaching? It was when I took PFAL.
Flushing out what exactly is meant by body/soul/spirit could mean that some of us get that "hidden teaching" finally.
Then again, it could mean that the "hidden teaching" was too well hidden for comprehension in the senses realm without being in our new bodies.
Maybe that's what PFAL was all about in the first place...?
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OK...I'm getting it...
So, to tie all of this together in my head...
People are born with breath...so they are indeed alive. Then people can get "born again" and have "spirit", which is a "spiritual life".
People who have breath but no "spiritual life" go on ahead and live out their breath life and then die. People who have "spiritual life" do the same thing, but at some point they are brought back into a new life that is a mixture between breath and "spiritual life"? Is that what is meant when the body that housed breath is resurrected?
I'm really trying to get this...it made no sense to me in PFAL or at any time in twi, so I'm not being argumentative...I really don't get it.
Thanks for all of your help and patience, though. It makes a difference!
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Thank you, Steve. That helps. However it is confusing to me when one gets to the epistles and it is declared that one is "dead" until one has "spirit".
There was something that was beginning to come onto the horizon in twi when I left the main organization...and I haven't heard about it since. It was something about "the spirit of man".
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This is a very interesting post (your whole post).
Just a question, though. When you posted:
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Originally posted by Steve Lortz:In nearly all cultures, demonic sources have taught that the real person is not the body, but an invisible something that goes to an invisible place when the visible "body" dies.
I wondered how this is different from what the bible teaches. Maybe you explained that in the rest of your post...but I didn't get it if you did.
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Whatcha doin' for the day?
This morning, my son-in-law is fixing breakfast for me and my daughter.
Afterwards, my husband is taking me and a carload of my friends to the Air Show.
I got out of bed an hour early because I was so excited!
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Can you log out? If so, log out. Then log back in. But before you do, look at this screen shot. I've circled the box that needs to be checked so you don't have to keep logging in.
DO NOT check the second box that says, "Check this option to disable the advanced interface." You'll lose a whole lot of options if you do.
If this works, then you will have a toolbar that looks like this. I've circled the My Space tab.
If this doesn't work for you, then I don't know how to help. Sigh.
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Originally posted by Ginger Tea:It's refreshing to see how compassionate and reasonable your postings are to Mike in this difficult area.
You have handled yourself gracefully.
Thank you.
You have made this thread more tolerable to read.
Well, I tried. Thank you. But it all got to me in the end. Sigh.
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Originally posted by Mike:Most GSers are new at the re-think game and they are doing it badly: little shopping around.Most GSers are new at the re-think game and they are doing it badly: little shopping around. When it comes to PFAL and Dr?s good works, you all are spoiled. You?ve had essentially NO OPPOSITION up until now. Sure, a few proPFALers blew in here, but because they hadn?t mastered the material, they made no real contribution, and they quickly ran out of bullets. You Grease Spotters have had SO little significant opposition for so long now (15 years for some?) that you?re utterly convinced you?re right. I think you all need to take a rest and re-think your arguments. Do you REALLY want to be this obsessive with evil? Focusing endlessly on bad stuff? Ever want to obey God on this?:
Mike, you gotta quit tossing around these little daggers of insult...unless you don't mind getting them back.
One thing GSers understand (in general) is that the re-thinking thing is a process. That's why this board works for so many people...it helps the process.
Yeah, some of us do it badly (and gawd, Mike, I worse than others too often), but we do it. And we keep doing it. And we want to do it our own way. We don't want somebody telling us how to get out from under the control of somebody else. That's just trading masters.
Mike, if you think for one minute that there is any truth to this, then you're underestimating everybody here...and assuming us dolts.
OUR OWN MINDS are our biggest opposition.
Hearing those curses twi laid upon us playing over and over again in our heads. Every time we've had a set-back we've wondered if this was the time we'd be dead by midnight. I know folks here (myself included) who have been diagnosed with a life-long medical disorder and the very first thing that happens in our heads is the replaying of the curses twi laid upon us.
Mike, we took a chance against all chances and challenged OUR OWN MINDS.
In our own minds we: took the chance of ending up dead by midnight; took the chance of our children getting possessed or murdered by the adversary; took the chance of ruining ourselves financially; took the chance of feeling fear and giving it it's due space in our lives; and we took the chance of not having sound minds.
It is insulting for you to assume that all we did was get mad at twi and throw a bratty little fit.
Don't try to say that I'm misunderstanding you, either. Your words are there in black and white, plain as day. You said what you meant and you meant what you said. Now own up to it and deal with it.
You owe everybody a PUBLIC apology.
Until you're ready to accept this, you're going to be seen as another twi drone (like the Borg drones) who has come to assimilate.
And you're going to get the SCREW ASSIMILATION response.
Don't misunderstand me...I'm not going to be assimilated. PFAL was wrong from the outset. It was founded on a false premise. To attempt to work within that premise is to attempt to live falsely. You're awfully insulting. You base your insults upon the false premises of PFAL. You're repeating the same behavior of your leader(s).
That's what I think. Period. Now my mind is completely closed to you. I'm not reopening it until I see an honest public apology from you to everybody who has ever been victimized by twi.
PS I don't want to consider anything that your god has to say. I don't worship your god. I don't believe that you even know what god you worship. I do know that in my rethinking process I've chosen to disengage myself from the god presented by twi. Please don't measure me by that standard and think you know me...because that is no longer a valid standard in my life.
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Originally posted by Mike:So, far, just about everyone who?s posted has read what I wrote wrong, very wrong. I?d might suggest you try another read.
Mike, so far nearly everybody is getting the same thing from reading you.
Maybe you need to try another read...in a few days...after thinking about something totally different.
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Just in case I wasn't clear (and I suspect I wasn't or I wouldn't be posting this), I am NOT saying you're mentally ill. I AM saying that the teachings of PFAL, VPW, et al was based in something that is now associated with mental illness.
I think you should look into magical thinking so that you can consider how PFAL, VPW et al used it to control the masses.
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Originally posted by Mike:What hurt so many was not paying close attention to God's Word. We didn't arm ourselves sufficiently. We didn't go to GOD sufficiently. Dr wasn't responsible for the massive breakdowns in trust and communication that occurred on all remote field locations starting slowly the day after he stepped down as president, linearly increased until a year after his death, after which have sporadically broken out all over in exponential proportions.
Mike, I gotta step in here (since I've now read this thread with only a few mild panic spasms). I will no longer shoulder the blame for what VP and twi did to me or anyone else. My lack of performance in twi was not a license to rape, plunder, pillage...or, in words easily understood by twi folks, "steal, kill and destroy".
That's like saying Jesus would not have needed to die if mankind had done things right in the first place. (Which I know is the twi-think about what happened.)
Do you seriously want to blame the folks who were hurt?
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Many people, especially in the Corps, developed an attraction for the man VPW, or something about him. The attraction to God?s Word and the fine details of what we were taught were often last on the list of many who were more socially minded in their Corps activities.
Let me see if I am understanding you correctly. Are you saying that there were those who worshipped the man and not the presented god? If so, are you releasing the man from responsibility for his actions as a worshipped icon?
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It?s NOT so much disobedience to advanced teachings like The Love Way and Christ Formed In You that messed things in general. It was more an IGNORANCE of the fine details of the KJV Bible, and what God had taught Dr and Dr taught us in PFAL.
Stop here! As soon as it becomes 3rd party ("and what God had taught Dr and Dr taught us in PFAL"), all information must be qualifiable with the originator of that information and by applying the information systematically and getting the same results. To learn the theory of relativity, you gotta know what Einstein said about it...since it was his theory. Einstein left information in his own hand. Einstein's work can be applied systematically and you will get the same results. The bible's originator is not qualifiable...holy men spoke on god's behalf. The bible's results are not qualifiable...tithing doesn't make everybody rich, praying doesn't make everybody peaceful, studying doesn't make everybody acceptable, etc.
If information is not qualifiable, then it is suspect.
The fact that many of us squelched our suspicions shows the depth of the training, not the ignorance of the trainee. The first party testimony here, on other such boards and in many lives in 3d is that the suspicions were there, but the training was to squelch the suspicion...or M&A the suspicious.
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I?m talking about the everyday people on the field, the thousands and tens of thousands. I lived at HQ, and I?m specifically NOT talking about HQ here. I?m talking the majority. It was ignorance of love that soured the collective effort, that had worked so well ten years earlier.
I used to think like this...until I got out of the mindset and realized that having 3somes with my twig leader and his chippy when I was only 16yo was not love at all...and neither was the pedophile ring that preyed at children's fellowship.
Mike, twi never worked properly. Never.
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People were ignorant because their focus was the social scene with their peers and inappropriate Dr worship.
People were not ignorant. People were silenced. People were ridiculed and mocked and scorned. People were terrorized and terrified. People were threatened. People were isolated.
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Now the disobedience comes in where we were specifically told to master PFAL (?79 Advanced Class, Sound OUt?84, and Last/Lost Teaching) but we blew it off.We blew off the simple easy instructions to master.
Mike, you can't say "we" and expect it to fly. You don't know who did and who did not blow it off. If you've read any of the threads here or at any other forum, you will know that the vast majority of folks did their darnedest to master the subject material. The subject material was flawed and could not be mastered...unless one wanted to leave one's brains in formaldehyde.
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We never sufficiently heard enough of the detailed, deep revelation placed in the PFAL books to rise up, up to the spiritual realm from the physical.
That's because there wasn't sufficient detailed, deep revelation placed in the PFAL books...or anywhere in twi.
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That?s where we?d have been protected from this wrath that hit us all. We ALL got hurt in one way or another, some spectacularly, due to a breakdown in the grad COMMUNITY BELIEVING.Notice the rotten community believing that Joseph, son of Israel suffered unjustly in. His believing was never thought ill of in God?s Word. His brothers community believing was rotten, and he was unjustly thrown in a prison. God released Joseph form his prison. Again, Joseph is unjustly hit, and again God delivered him AND his tormentors.
We disobeyed the simple easy instructions to master.
We were relatively ignorant of the advanced armor Dr taught us.
We engaged in a serious war with the adversary, and we tried to wing it.
Just like Eve we all got creamed.
Have you ever heard of "magical thinking"? An over-simplified definition can be found in this glossary. There's a little more info at this site. You can do your own search to learn more.
Basically, although experienced as normal in certain stages of childhood, magical thinking is associated with mental illnesses in adults. Believing=Receiving is magical thinking. It is recognizing this flaw...this illness...that can, in and of itself, denude PFAL and twi.
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This great defeat was widespread, in all places remote for HQ and root locations. This grand defeat started gradually much earlier, but by 1986, one year after Dr died, it was way out of control and passed the point of no return. It had nothing to do with Dr, and everything to do with a lack of the pure Word in our minds.
Mike, is the "pure word" even around?
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It?ll never be a return to old past hurts that heals the hurts.
Taking care of a wound always heals the wound.
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I see a community that can return to this Word and believe it, and see the progressively complete deliverance God has provided us in those books.
I'll never believe them again...and my life is none-the-worse and far the better. The vast personal testimony from others with the same results as mine negate your above statement.
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VP didn?t write the books! The books are bigger than VPW, bigger than the entire team who worked with Dr, the books are bigger than we ever guessed, because they are of God.
Mike, I urge you to learn about magical thinking.
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rascal,
Excellent voicing of duly placed anger!
I have one question, though. You wrote, "God loved and sorrowed over the damage, and destruction wrought in EACH believer that vpw betrayed..."
How do you know this? (Not trying to be coy or aggressive...trying to work out things in my mind...things like how do I know that god had anything to do with my life or the lives of others...) Thanks.
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On the login screen there is a checkbox that says something like, "Check here if you don't want to keep logging in". Do you check that box before logging in?
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Survival of the fittest at its best. Congrats GSC!
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Wow! You're one talented dude!
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I still look for what I did wrong whenever something "unprofitable" happens.
I still catch myself automatically SIT whenever a sudden situation pops up.
I still wonder just how far I'm going to be allowed to go with this audacious new lifestyle before I get a "face melting"...or get "possessed".
I still hold to the idea that marriage is holy...and the man controls things...no matter how traumatic or damaging.
BUT...
I am in therapy to get over all this crap.
At least I recognize it as crap now.
I've actively held to this stuff for 41 of the 44 years of my life...it's going to take awhile to get it out of my head.
TWI simply honed the beliefs I already had from the church I grew up in (Nazarene). When I left the twi offshoot last spring, I quit participating in any form of xianity...it has been my experience that twi did not hold an elite corner on the insanity.
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Marriage is a difficult proposition. To get to another anniversary is a major accomplishment! Congrats!
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I was in a cult for too many years and in an offshoot of that cult for too many years. Obviously I had major deficits in my ability to think for myself, in my ability to live life as an individual, in my ability to trust myself. All I have to offer here is my story. Maybe that's enough for someone to think twice about twi and twi offshoots.
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Happy Bday OC. Love your orange cat...
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I was in a cult for too many years and in an offshoot of that cult for too many years. Obviously I had major deficits in my ability to think for myself, in my ability to live life as an individual, in my ability to trust myself. All I have to offer here is my story. Maybe that's enough for someone to think twice about twi and twi offshoots.
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We share birthdays! Too kewl! Hope yours was as happy as mine!
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I was in a cult for too many years and in an offshoot of that cult for too many years. Obviously I had major deficits in my ability to think for myself, in my ability to live life as an individual, in my ability to trust myself. All I have to offer here is my story. Maybe that's enough for someone to think twice about twi and twi offshoots.
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Thank you berry mucho! (How's that for mixing up my languages and stuff? LMAO!) My bdate is in my profile.
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I was in a cult for too many years and in an offshoot of that cult for too many years. Obviously I had major deficits in my ability to think for myself, in my ability to live life as an individual, in my ability to trust myself. All I have to offer here is my story. Maybe that's enough for someone to think twice about twi and twi offshoots.
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Hooray!!!!!!!!!
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If cleanliness is next to godliness, and if godliness includes obsessive-compulsive house cleaning tendencies, then bless my mess!
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OIC....you all actually know
Hmmmm!
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If cleanliness is next to godliness, and if godliness includes obsessive-compulsive house cleaning tendencies, then bless my mess!
The Ubiquitously Hidden Teaching of VPW
in Entertainment Archives
Posted
There's only one other place I've ever heard this phraseology used...hmmmmm....