WordWolf

[WordWolf in boldface again.]

So there was no encouraging people to seek God to find their own "gift ministries" I presume?

[Correct.

And when I asked about them, the answers I got were a bit evasive.

Nobody wanted to admit to not knowing the answers.]

It seems like to me there was a blatant discouragement of it. That is just odd to me, but I guess it did keep vpw at an elevated level that nobody could attain and served a purpose for him.

[Correct and correct.]

Also, did I understand right that there was a hierarchy within the gift ministries? Certain gifts were better than others?

[No, that's not what I meant...]

Or are you trying to say that the more gift ministries you had/have, the higher in rank you were if you chose to operate in them?

[That's kinda what I meant- that vpw supposedly had a bunch, so he was "special" in that way

as well as others. vpw was great at encouraging other people to make claims about him so he

didn't have to. (This gave him "plausible deniability" since nobody could catch him saying

it on record. This still works with some people.)

Let's not forget "Helps and Governments".

IIRC,

the five "gift ministries" were not required for ordination,

and helps and governments WERE included.

That's fine since they're in the Epistles as well.

However, one always heard about "the five gift ministries"

like they were the upper tier of ordination,

and the others were the lower tier.

And forget ever getting a straight answer on who has what.

BTW,

those 5 "gift ministries" were mentioned in the abstract,

and there were "reverends" ("ministers") in twi,

but it was nearly impossible to ever pin anyone down on exactly

WHO was WHAT.

Nobody ever seemed to have a SPECIFIC "ministry",

and specific questions were met with a song-and-dance

that answered NOTHING.

The exception, of course, being vpw.

He called HIMSELF "THE Teacher."

And had other people do it.

(It was right in Session 12 of the tapes.)

This suggested he had that "gift ministry."

And he made up the definition of an apostle as

"one who brings new light to his generation. It may be old light, but to the generation

he brings it to-it is new."

at the same time he asserted that

God told him He would teach vpw like people hadn't been taught for 20 centuries if vpw

would teach others.

Does that or does that NOT look like he's written the definition to match his claims of himself?

And he spoke for God to these people, and defined that a prophet is

"one who speaks for God",

and even predicted all sorts of disasters and troubles in the news-

which he got from the John Birch Society and Liberty Lobby.

Isnt the prediction thing the classic definition of "prophet"?

And evangelist wasn't someone who actually evangelizes-

he's someone who gets the other Christians fired up enough about

evangelizing that they go out and do it.

Convenient how this allows him to stay home, not have to

travel on "crusades" like Billy Graham,

and yet coincidentally match his own definition.

And he made lots of little speeches about how much he cared

for "his people" and watched out for them- and arranged

little demonstrations and displays of same-

and in private screamed at them when things were imperfect,

and raped the women.

Meanwhile the shepherd gives his life for the sheep,

and the word for "pastor" comes from the word for "shepherd."

It's almost like vpw was embarassed by Christ's example

of same, and avoided the Gospels for that reason.

So,

depending on how clever vpw was that week,

he left people thinking that he was a minister with all

5 "gift ministries",

like that made him five times the minister everyone else was.

While I'm on the subject,

let's have a moment to discuss the stratified society that was/is twi,

and the pecking order,

and who salutes who.

We had the spiritual empties-those who never took the class,

or weren't born again, depending on who was teaching that night and in what year.

We had people in twi but hadn't taken the foundational (pfal) class.

We had people who took the foundational, but not the intermediate.

We had people who took the foundational and intermediate, but not the advanced class.

See, here's where my own chart breaks down.

There were wows and advanced-class grads.

There were coordinators of various types.

There was the college division.

Ok, to the twig coordinator saluted to the branch coordinator,

who saluted the territory coordinator,

who saluted the limb coordinator,

who saluted the regional coordinator,

who saluted the trunk coordinator,

who saluted the bod.

THAT part's easy to see.

But where did the other positions-like worldwide outreach-fit in?

Where did those other positions fit?

What about the reverends?

Recognized corp?

wows that went twice?

And other stuff I've never heard of?

Will someone please tell me what a "gift ministry" is? I have always believed that God has given ALL of us gifts...did TWI say that only certain people had gifts and that others did not?

Here's what twi used.

Ephesians 4:10-12.

" 10He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.)

11And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,

12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;"

And in some twi doctrine (pfal proper), all Christians had "Christ in them" and were fantastic.

HOWEVER,

AFTER that,

then you get into the hierarchy, and the gift ministries mentioned there-

Apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, teachers-

were part of the hierarchy.

Sharon answered mine- "Blitzkrieg Bop."

(By the Ramones and covered since then.)

Ca Dreaming may have answered hers correctly.

No, I just named your song, and posted another (hetero).

Next song.

"They're forming in a straight line

They're going through a tight wind

The kids are losing their minds"

Why would we want to convert files to pdf's....to keep someone from "stealing" our work? Any other reason?

ok this is how smart i am..... what is pdf??

I'm not sure, but I think the answer to both is the same.

PDF stands for "Portable Document Format."

It squeezes down document files into a smaller format, a bit.

Apparently, some people consider PDFs as superior for posting a document

rather than as a .doc or whatever.

Further, since people can make .docs look pretty, but they take up a lot

of resources compared to a .txt file of identical content,

trimming down their requirements is a handy thing.

Then pdf readers like Adobe Acrobat can be used to read them,

and blow up the page, or whatever.

That's as best I can figure it.

Ok, this one's Don Henley's "Heart of the Matter".

I forget whether that or "End of the Innocence" is the title-song

for the album. But "End of the Innocence" is a LOT better-known.

Thomas Haden Church

Spanglish

Cloris Leachman

Young Frankenstein

Gene Hackman

the Quick and the Dead

Just to make it official, CORRECT.

It's got a lot of clever little lines.

Ok, let's see.

Free security stuff.

AdAware.

Run this to find dataminers and stuff.

http://www.lavasoftusa.com/software/adaware/

Spybot:Search and Destroy.

Run a scan, plus block sites and prevent malware installation.

http://www.safer-networking.org/

SpywareBlaster.

Immunize your PC against malware.

http://www.javacoolsoftware.com/spywareblaster.html

Regscrub XP

Clean your registry of invalid entries.

http://www.majorgeeks.com/download.php?det=2048

Firewall.

ZoneAlarm.

http://www.zonelabs.com/store/content/comp...reeDownload.jsp

Antivirus.

AVG, the most user-friendly antivirus.

http://free.grisoft.com/doc/avg-anti-virus...e/lng/us/tpl/v5

Avira Antivirus.

Better than AVG and a smaller, leaner program.

http://www.free-av.com/

Avast!

Better than Avira, but bigger.

http://www.avast.com/

============

Office suites.

OpenOffice.

http://www.openoffice.org/

Abiword Word Processor.

http://www.abisource.com/

CutePDF.

Turns text files into PDFs.

http://www.cutepdf.com/

GIMP.

Free image-editing software. Windows Version here.

http://gimp-win.sourceforge.net/stable.html

Yes, it was me. Raf misplaced his copy and forgot the name, and asked for one.

I recommended this one, and he said it was the one he had been using previously.

I've been resisting the urge to bring that up on this thread, so thanks for putting me

out of my misery. :)

Well, that's the thing isn't it ? What makes for a scholar versus someone whose 'eyes of understanding enlightened' versus someone 'devilishly influenced' ??

Scholar: one who has completed a properly-accredited set of coursework with the accompanying

degrees.

Non-Scholar: one who has not.

It's like the difference between a surgeon and a nut with a set of surgical tools.

Would you let someone perform major surgery (or minor surgery, for that matter)

on you without knowing their qualifications?

Would you trust your lawsuit or defense to a guy who does not have a legal

degree in plain sight in his office?

Entirely different question between

"devilishly-influenced" and "eyes of understanding enlightened."

That's a subject for Doctrinal.

I guess we could ask if John Paul is a scholar, was Joseph Smith a scholar etcc..

For me, Paisano 'hit it on the head'... "truth is truth is truth" (for some it appears to be in the 'eye of the beholder').

we could ask either in the Doctrinal forum at most, but neither is "about the way."

Oversimplifying truth is how people get fooled.

The Devil quoted Scripture to Jesus.

Can't get more "True" than Scripture.

Was what the Devil said, then, truth?

If you want to get into this, again, Doctrinal.

It still blows my mind how ex-twiers who have now 'moved on' to other denominational beliefs with just as much (if not more) glaring inconsistencies as twi ever had/has, are so quick to hurl the stones, so to speak.!!

It still blows my mind that some people seek to excuse the capital offenses committed

by-and advocated by- vpw, but can strain at a gnat as to how many people were crucified

when Jesus was. The only cross that mattered on that hill was the one Jesus was on.

I'm glad the mods have me on 'go slow', I only have to peruse some of this junk without

the urge now to post whilst 'emotionally charged'...but come on guys, some of these theads must be pretty close to the definition of flagrant hypocrisy, surely ??

Some of the posts certainly are. However, the staff won't stop you from posting no

matter how much your posts exemplify it. They're made of finer clay.

I thought it was worth bringing up again.

Some people keep forgetting how vpw was always friends with "the greatest"

everythings in the world and so on.

So, worth looking at, at the very least, I thought.

(Perhaps you disagree. Perhaps you're right.)

Recollections from 1981-1984, anyone?

What was vpw's idea of a great Christian layman?

Would you believe Howard Allen?

Hey, it's ok.

All the regular posters have posted stuff they later regretted.

Nobody's got a perfect batting average.

And so on.

Pull up a chair. Have some spring water.

" 'E' is for 'Er-gent'!!!"

"Four scores and 32 bars ago, our forefathers.."

"A quartet?"

"...And foremothers..."

"Another quartet?"

"Sshh!"

"What's that?"

"SSSSHHH!!"

"Good plan."

"It's all in the mind."

[WordWolf in boldface and brackets.]

I would find us hard pressed to find a theologian more brilliant than was Bullinger.

[You've got to press harder than that if you want to make an impression on

the paper.

I like Bullinger's stuff too-but he skills as a THEOLOGIAN weren't the best.

He was excellent at SOME things, and overdid it at others.

That's how he managed some mistakes like expounding at length on the

differenct between the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God,

and how "katabole" meant an overthrow when that's not consistent with

ALL usages of the Greek word,

and so on.

Accepting his limitations and not making him THE man is a step towards

personal excellence. You've got to think for YOURSELF.

Otherwise, you'll remain a "spiritual hitchhiker or cripple",

as vpw put it.]

My premise is that when we say that "Holy men of God spake as they were moved by the holy spirit", and that "All scripture is given by inspiration of God.'"

[That's 1/2 a sentence.

"My premise: 'When we say 'this' and 'that',...."

You're missing your conclusion.

What are you claiming about when this and that are said?

Are you asserting that when we say both, it's rhetoric?

Are you asserting that when we say both, we should all take a drink?

What ARE you saying about both claims?]

I believe this and I never heard it before PFAL.

[bully for you.

In some circles, you would have heard it all the time.]

I have since read it in Bullingers works as well as Kenyon's and even Smith Wigglesworths, so there is a thread that is common to those of us that believe that the bible is the inspired Word and Will of God.

[Thank you for proving the case.

Lots of people heard it and hear it when vpw and twi figure not at all into the equation.

[bTW, Kenyon not only lacked formal education,

but he gave HIMSELF a doctorate.

"In 1924, Kenyon moved to Oakland, California to continue his independent ministry. It was during this time he gave himself as 'Dr. E.W. Kenyon of Massachusetts.' Much like many modern Word of Faith teachers, Kenyon had no formal theological training and in his case his doctorate was self-instituted."

Amazing what you find when you look...]

I am not saying Wierwille was right in everything he taught but again I remember him saying that we were to check it out for ourselves and I took him up on that.

[And if your conclusions had differed from what he'd said and wanted,

you would have faced the same EXIT those guys did.

And exits weren't limited to that.

When vpw kicked out Heefner and Doop, it was while they were the BEST guys

in the ministry-which was no longer what he wanted....

since they were so good, they outperformed him-and that was a capital crime

in vpw's eyes.

I am very thankful to see the many other works of men of God who even though people accuse VPW of plaguirism,

[We also accuse the sun of being hot and giving off light.

vpw plagiarized nearly everything except his sick sex doctrines.

And if he got THEM from another source, us Christian types don't

have the expertise HE had to find them...]

at least you see that a lot of this stuff was 'worked by other people. I can say that reading PFAL is close to 'How to enjoy the bible' by Bullinger.

[And reading the New King James Version is close to reading the King James Version.

That's because one took directly from the other-and did so openly.

And "Babylon Mystery Religion" is close to "The Two Babylons."

That's because one took directly from the other-and did so openly.

If you'd REALLY looked things up for yourself like you claimed,

you'd have FOUND this stuff....]

Or RTHST is like reading BG Leonards 'Gifts of the Spirit', sure there are difference in some of the terminology but the gist is there.

[You mixed up your names.

RTHST was taken directly from JE Stiles' "Gift of the Holy Spirit,

complete with entire paragraphs lifted without attribution.

Differences in wording were introduced in later versions because

they were TOO close.]

I guess I feel good about what Wierwille did because I do not know if I would have had the experience to study some of what these other men put down on paper.

[Or, you know, he could have given the credit to the guys who DID the work,

rather than remove their names and add his own to their work.]

To get ba ck to the 'theologian' stuff.

[Hey, YOU were the one who decided to grab the microphone and demonstrate

an absence of understanding of what vpw did.

But let's get back to what we actually WERE discussing...]

Some of the most incredible 'sermons' I have ever read have been by Wigglesworth and that man had absolutely no formal theological training, so I would wonder where he got it? But I know because it is the same source where I get it.

[Hm, what did Wigglesworth say?

http://windandfire.org/2005/Main/Spiritual...igglesworth.htm

"Smith Wigglesworth placed great emphasis on purity and holiness, like all true Revivalists. He said, "You must every day make higher ground. You must deny yourself to make progress with God. You must refuse everything that is not pure and holy. God wants you pure in heart. He wants you to have an intense desire after holiness... Two things will get you to leap out of yourselves into the promises of God today. One is purity, and the other is FAITH, which is kindled more and more BY PURITY."

This one statement contains what is probably the key secret to Smith Wigglesworth's outstanding success in God. And it is obviously a key that is well worth remembering for us also. Another point to remember is that Smith was very aware of the dangers of money, and guarded himself carefully against the possibility of covetousness entering in. He was truly beyond reproach in this area also."

Smith Wigglesworth was BEYOND REPROACH,

beyond any coveting of money,

and emphasized PURITY.

You insult Wigglesworth by invoking his name in the same breath as

a man who showed pornographic videos to his students,

raped members of his congregation and covered his tracks,

drugged members of his congregation and covered his tracks,

exposed himself to members of his congregation,

made arrangements to do all the above,

and presented the quality work of other Christians as his own.]

[Oh,

and welcome to the GSC.

Please read the pinned/sticky topic which you've obviously ignored.

When you play baseball, you play by the baseball rules.

When you play GSC, you play by the GSC rules.

Please review the GSC rules.]

*checks the list*

Ok, here's what's left so far:

G) Ideas to Encourage Reading in Young Children

H) Maintaining Reliable Transportation

J) Powerful Paragraphs

K) Sola Scriptura: An Overview of the Protestant Reformation

L) Some Practical Aspects of Business Etiquette

M)The "Write" Stuff"

I see "J)" and "M)" as the same subject split into 2 topics.

Anyone want to "run the table?"

WordWolf:

"Now that I've had my fun lampooning this lampoon-worthy list,

I think it's only fair we demonstrate the courage of our convictions,

and save the average twi'er $52.

Since some of us believe the internet (specific webpages)

have all these answers, let's provide the URLs for these topics!

I'll start off.

A History of the Huguenots:

http://www.geocities.com/hugenoteblad/hist-hug.htm

http://www.huguenotsociety.org.uk/history/

http://huguenot.netnation.com/general/huguenot.htm

http://www.huguenotsocietyofamerica.org/

Can the rest of you fill in the others??

QuietThinker:

"ok, WW, I will play, too. :)

Spelling Basics:

Spelling it right

English Learner

English for Everybody

HomeSchool Curric. Spelling Course"

WordWolf:

Ok, here's the list.

"A) "Better Spelling Basics

B) Building an Understanding of Vehicle Purchasing

C) Early History of New Knoxville

D) The First Freedom: Religious Liberty in America

E) Highlights of African History and Culture

F) A history of the Huguenots

G) Ideas to Encourage Reading in Young Children

H) Maintaining Reliable Transportation

I) Making a Home-cleaning Schediule That Works for You

J) Powerful Paragraphs

K) Sola Scriptura: An Overview of the Protestant Reformation

L) Some Practical Aspects of Business Etiquette

M)The "Write" Stuff"

Now, A) and F) have been covered.

That leaves 10 more topics.

I'm sure the rest of you will want a piece of this-

it's just one more way to show up the twi hierarchy.

And it's fun! :)"

templelady:

"Early History of New Knoxville

http://www.newknoxville.com/our_past.htm"

Belle:

Here are my favorite sites for Making a Home-cleaning Schedule That Works for You:

Fly Lady - This site is "da bomb" on cleaning schedules

Heloise

Strats Place - TWITs probably don't need this one

And my favorite site name:

REAL SIMPLE

Really, between Fly Lady and Heloise you've got it covered."

shazdancer:

"Building an Understanding of Vehicle Purchasing

Car Buying Tips

More Car Buying Tips

The First Freedom: Religious Liberty in America

Religious Liberty, ACLU

The North American Religious Liberty Association

Highlights of African History and Culture

African History on About.com

African History on the BBC, multimedia

Can we say...Google? and free? and they do it better?"

I did not find Garth's comment inappropriate, myself.

=========

In other news, on their own website (http://www.pcj.edu/intro/intropage.html)

Pontifical College Josephinum says this:

"ABOUT THE JOSEPHINUM

Founded in 1888, by a German immigrant priest, Msgr. Joseph Jessing, the Pontifical College Josephinum was granted pontifical status in 1892 by Pope Leo XIII, thus becoming, and remaining, the only pontifical seminary in the Western Hemisphere.

Originally founded by Msgr. Jessing, in 1875, as an orphanage, today it educates seminarians from the United States, Asia, Africa and Europe.

Alumni serve the universal Church in 22 foreign countries and 48 states. The Josephinum is comprised of a four-year College of Liberal Arts and a four-year graduate School of Theology.

The Josephinum prepares priests for: U.S. dioceses that do not have their own seminaries; missionary areas of the United States; regions of the U.S. with growing Hispanic communities; and dioceses around the world in need of help with the education of their seminarians."

It's located in Columbus, Ohio, so its mention here is hardly shocking.

I'm not sure about the chain of "who salutes to who" here,

but it doesn't sound like a secret papal training ground or an independent group

not accountable to anyone short of the Vatican.

Not that anyone SAID they were, but the phrasing was peculiar and I wanted to say that outright.

Of course,

some people would say you don't REALLY know that's why she's the sole exception to the rule

of kicking out the spouse and so on,

unless you contact twi in writing and they say that's the reason....

I wonder where the enigmatic Peter Wade falls in the continuum.

I know he had the brains to leave early-perhaps it was an educated brain.