WordWolf

Thank you for finding the right threads.

Hm. This is going to take a bit of time....

I wanted to put this together on the same post,

because it's part of the same set of policies and practices.

(No matter what one or 2 people say.)

WordWolf:

If you hadn't taken pfal, you were leaned on to take pfal.

If you had taken pfal but not the intermediate, you were leaned on to take pfal.

If you had taken the intermediate but not the advanced, you were leaned on to take the advanced.

If you completed the advanced, you were leaned on to go wow.

If you finished wow AND the advanced (either order), you were leaned on to go corps.

What if you didn't go corps?

Well, then the subject is dropped-today.

Tomorrow it will come up again.

And the next day.

I was thinking tonight (uh-oh dangerous stuff!) Many of us did not leave because we were wanting to keep our commitment to God.

When thou vowest a vow defer not to pay it. Proverbs....

We wanted to please God. We wanted to do our best for His Highest. Can't you see that leaving wasn't really a viable option? (This isn't only for OM - its for any lurkers still out there thinking that we still had the choice to leave)

I always have hated it when I see how some people have the talent of using a person's wanting to do what is right to help further evil. And believe me - many of the ordained MOG's had that talent - not all, but many.

In short, once you showed up, you were on either the fast track or the slow track

to going corps and thus, hitchhiking and going to LEAD.

The slow track:

you were never a viable candidate for the corps,

so you'll be sold as many classes as possible, and that you can be talked into.

The fast track:

you're the right age for the corps.

You will now be leaned on first to take all classes,

THEN to go corps.

To NOT go corps means you'll have to make the deliberate decision NOT to

go at some point, and steadfastly maintain it from then on,

and ignore anything said about you from then on.

The "screening process" for the corps was encapsulated in vpw's phrase

"You can stay as long as your money holds!"

After that, people were released from the corps only on 2 conditions:

A) they became a financial or legal liability

or

B) vpw got into a mood and kicked them out or their entire class out

For a program touted as highly as the way corps was,

it was ill-conceived,

ill-prepared,

and ill-executed,

and ill-screened.

Diligence and consideration SHOULD have been part of each step.

The only things we saw "diligence" in (mostly) were

"is your money on time?" and "I read your 'birth to the corps' paper."

Quote Oldies---"Twi did not perpetuate this crime... they facilitated Top to strive to be her best in the corps, I believe that was the heart behind the corps.... not her having evils befall her."

OM-I am stunned that you still think this after all you have seen and heard. I do not believe that you are listening because you do not want to hear.

That has been brought up before, but it helps to show new people and

different people all keep coming to the same conclusion.

And you took one honest comment I made (and I tried to be fair, believe me) and chose to use that as part of your argument to once again protect TWI instead of taking in my entire story.

do you still have the word of TOTW?

TWI perpetuated the crime by allowing it to continue-even after a wonderful young man was killed-because of their continued teaching that it was NEGATIVE BELIEVING that caused such things to happen. No, it wasn't their intent-that would make them monsters, and I too believed that they wanted me to be their idea of the best-at least that's what I thought. But once evil did befall me, once again

BECAUSE OF THEIR POLICY AND PRACTICE,

they did nothing, NOTHING, to help me in the aftermath

or to stop the practice

or to insure that others did not have the same fate befall them. No-they did not invent the concept of hitchhiking.

But they used it as part of their curriculum as a requirement,

irregardless of the potential consequences.

They simply continued along the same path, hoping for the best and covering up the worse. Any group who did that today would be crucified on the front page of every paper and web site available.

I have not remained a victim in thought or action. I have moved on with my life, because thankfully I still had a life to move on with, unlike others. But their actions-and lack of actions-profoundly changed the direction of my life.

One of the purposes of this forum is to bring to light the abusives that began the downward spiral of the organization and of the damage to people's lives, and hopefully to make those still in understand the history of this group and compare that to where it is today. That is my reason for coming forward, not for symphathy or attention, believe me. But insensitive and downright stupid logic coming out of people's mouths to defend what participation in the group did to some of us makes me angry, so I came out of the woodwork.

I am going to BELIEVE with all my heart that something will move in the hearts of the unbelievers to make them see the light. Let's test the law of believing, shall we???

My apologies for the words in all caps-I did try to keep them to a minimum. Breathe, breathe.........

Well, SOME people will see the point clearly.

Some others will see someone outlining their "defense",

and see how it miserably fails to make sense in the face of sensible discussion,

and how slapping labels on things does not change the substance of them.

(Even vpw said that putting the label 'apple-butter' on a jar of pickles does not

change the pickles on the inside.)

So, the lurkers have a chance to "get it" even without posting, because their positions

have already been represented-and shot down.

Twi did not perpetuate this crime... they facilitated Top to strive to be her best in the corps, I believe that was the heart behind the corps.... not her having evils befall her.

Same answer can be applied to the following....

A leader gathers all the wows in the state together.

He announces a massive witnessing campaign for "the people who need it the most."

He sends dozens of wows into housing projects to speak God's Word.

By morning,

several have emerged with contacts from people who want to hear more

or attend twigs.

Several have emerged empty-handed.

A few were mugged.

Two were raped.

Is the leader who sent them there to be blamed?

According to OM's thinking, not at all.

He didn't mug or rape anyone.

His goals were laudable-help the wows grow, help people hear, help more pfal classes start.

He facilitated the wows to be the best in the wow program.

That was his INTENTION-not to have evil befall them.

Therefore, despite the fact that his direct instructions REQUIRED them to be placed

in a position of unnecessary risk, OM would say he bears NO responsibility for anything

that happened to them there.

Perhaps the person failed to believe sufficiently.

The felons, of course, were to blame-everyone agrees about that.

The "heart behind" the instruction means that-

although it was poorly-considered and planned, and placed people in unnecessary risk-

the people who made those decisions are COMPLETELY BLAMELESS.

That's applying OM's standard to this situation.

INTENT IS EVERYTHING.

RESULTS DON'T MATTER.

Doojable, thanks for your opinions and insight. I will consider them.

And a few months from now,

we'll be seeing EXACTLY the same posts ALL OVER AGAIN,

as if Dooj never offered him insight.

We've seen this one before. Others have pointed it out before.

Some posters-MOST posters, arrive here thinking vpw was

fantastic and innocent and stuff.

As they learn things over time, they discover what they THOUGHT they knew

wasn't what they THOUGHT it was.

They eliminate some of their black-and-white thinking,

and discover "the good old days weren't always good."

A few posters arrive and have already made up their minds

to hold on to their previous opinion and bludgeon anyone who tries

to introduce contrary opinions, information or insights.

It's disgraceful and sad, but what can you do about them?

Om - I have plenty of compassion and mercy for those in twi. Many, many were taken in by the systematized error that became the web of destruction.

I have not blamed one single person for these wrongs. I do lay some blame at the feet of those in charge - those that were in the position of watchmen. I can do this because the Word says that if the watchman sees the trouble and does nothing about it he or she is wrong. If the watchman is asleep and not keeping watch - he or she is wrong. The first (or at most, the second) time that something bad happened during a hitchhiking incident - there should have been some changes made.

As I understand God's take on those in authority it is one of service and respect for those served. Yes, the people are supposed to obey. AND - that very obedience requires the diligence of the leaders. On this subject - hitchiking - diligence was not taken.

It is not unmerciful to see a wrong and point it out. It is irresponsible to see a wrong and do nothing.

Now if you were in authority and saw the wrong and did nothing.....well - then may God have mercy on you. (You meaning anyone who this shoe fits.)

IMHO

Here's what Dooj posted. And what OM will delete from active memory as soon as

no one's looking.

WordWolf, the first time I read your post I thought of that same phrase “connecting-the-dots” used by the media and security agencies in reference to discovering the trail of covert plans of the terrorists after 9/11. I don’t think VPW had the intellectual capacity to mastermind anything – I think his modus operandi was to take the path of least resistance in pursuit of sex, power and glory…But I don’t mean to put words in your wolf – did you mean it more like showing a connection with the counter-culture trends and their influence on VPW? That would be interesting – sort of a timeline thing like you did with The Way: Living in Wonderland.

Right-

I meant it more in the sense of trying to pin down what was counter-culture

in the sense of "flower power" and so on,

what was counter-culture in the sense of conspiracy theorists

and acting on their ideas,

and what was just some pervs trying to save a buck,

and in what percentages.

I don't remember a substantial discussion on this particular subject so far.

If we could GET a timeline eventually, that would be grand,

but if not, any coherent picture is bound to be handy,

and useful to SOMEONE-

remember, we STILL get new people here, who never knew what's considered

common knowledge on this board.

I know the song, from college, but I don't know who sang it. Chick-a-boom.

*blink blink*

I'm TRULY impressed.

TRULY.

That is the correct title.

And this is an opportunity for me to tell another song-story.

First, here's the song.

"Last night I had a crazy dream

About a chick in a black bikini

Oh, she looked so good

She couldn't be real

She must be a magic genie

But then she disappeared around the corner

All I saw were three doors

And the top of her bikini

I made it through the first door

There was a party going on

I asked about the chick

But what they said was freaky

Chick-a-boom-chick-a-boom

Don't ya jes' love it

Chick-a-boom-chick-a-boom

Don't you jes' love it

Chick-a-boom-chick-a-boom

Don't ya jes' love it

Chick-a-boom-chick-a-boom-boom-boom

I found the bottom half

Behind the second door

Which took me to Africa I presume

This really far out cat

Was screaming half crazy

"Bomp boom a loo bom a long bam boo"

I said, hey man

Cut that jive

And tell me where the chick went

But he looked at me

As pleased as could be

And said these words

But I wonder what he meant

Chick-a-boom-chick-a-boom

(Mmmmm-aaaah)

Don't ya jes' love it

Chick-a-boom-chick-a-boom

(Mmmmm-aaaah)

Don't you jes' love it

Chick-a-boom-chick-a-boom

(Mmmmm-aaaah)

Don't ya jes' love it

Chick-a-boom-chick-a-boom-boom-boom

Aaaah, don't ya jes' love it

Mmm-hum, don't ya jes' love it

Don't ya love it, don't ya love it

Oh yeah, don't ya love it

Don't ya jes' love it now

I opened the third door and there she was

And she whispered so sexy, hello-ooh

I tried to do the same

And impress her with my style

But why I said this

I'll never know

Chick-a-boom-chick-a-boom

(Mmmmm-aaaah)

Don't ya jes' love it

Chick-a-boom-chick-a-boom

(Mmmmm-aaaah)

Don't you jes' love it

Chick-a-boom-chick-a-boom

(Mmmmm-aaaah)

Don't ya jes' love it

Chick-a-boom-chick-a-boom-boom-boom

Don't ya know I'll

Chick-a-boom-chick-a-boom

(Mmmmm-aaaah)

Don't ya jes' love it

Chick-a-boom-chick-a-boom

(Mmmmm-aaaah)

Don't you jes' love it

Chick-a-boom-chick-a-boom

(Mmmmm-aaaah)

Don't ya jes' love it

Chick-a-boom-chick-a-boom-boom-boom

Chick-a-boom-chick-a-boom

(Mmmmm-aaaah)

Don't ya jes' love it

Chick-a-boom-chick-a-boom

(Mmmmm-aaaah)

Don't you jes' love it

Chick-a-boom-chick-a-boom

(Mmmmm-aaaah)

Don't ya jes' love it

Chick-a-boom-chick-a-boom-boom-boom"

===========

Here's the story, which is why I've wanted to post this for a while.

From 1971-1976, Saturday morning US cartoons ran one rather early

called "the Groovy Ghoulies." Basically, if you took Rowan and Martin's

"Laugh-In", made it into a cartoon, translated the people into classic

movie-monsters, added some cartoon shorts here and there, and a

music video of them singing and playing, then you'd have the Groovy

Ghoulies. The giveaway that it was like Laugh-In was

"Weird Window Time", which was a ripoff of the opening windows and

one-liners from Laugh-In. It was corny, and dry, and lots of fun to watch

growing up. I know I'm not the only one who remembers it who's my age

because a few years ago someone else was joking about it, and the way

Drac looked when he played the pipe organ. (It was a rather unique look

that can be imitated, but is hard to describe. His face looked really enthused,

his mouth was agape, and he raised each hand above his head and zoomed it

straight down like a dive-bomber as he hit the keys.)

Anyway, the songs can stay with you a VERY long time. Songs like

"At MID-NIGHT!" and "Dumb Ol' Ghoulie" and ones other people remember

better, plus the theme song.

Well, one song-with a video like always-

was written by Dick Monda, who had written others for the show.

But, this time, he didn't let the song just die with the cartoon.

So, he made a single of it.

"Daddy Dewdrop was a fictitious name of an artist, now known as a One Hit Wonder with the song "Chick-A-Boom", written by Dick Monda.

Dick Monda is a songwriter living in California, but originally from Cleveland. While in a group of studio musicians from the Sunflower label, namely, Bill Perry, Tom Hensley, Steve Rillera, and Larry Brown and calling themselves the the "Torrance Cookers" they recorded an album with the one hit wonder "Chick-A-Boom (Don't Ya Jes' Love It)", in 1971. The single reached number 9, but follow-up releases by Daddy Dewdrop failed to chart.

Monda worked as a songwriter for the television series "Sabrina And The Groovy Ghoulies", a USA cartoon."

""Daddy Dewdrop" was actually Dick Monda, a songwriter originally from Cleveland, along with some studio musicians calling themselves the "Torrance Cookers." The musicians were Bill Perry, Tom Hensley, Steve Rillera, and Larry Brown. The single and subsequent album were recorded in Torrance, California. Surprisingly, the song "Chick-A-Boom," a wry sexual fantasy put to music, jumped into the national top-10, the biggest hit the label ever had. The Daddy Dewdrop album, which followed the successful single, was a light-hearted, if not lightweight, effort that sealed the fate of Daddy Dewdrop as a one-hit wonder, never to be heard from again. The followup single, "The March of the White Corpuscles"/"Fox Huntin'" [sunflower 111], sank without a trace.

Dick Monda provided us with a little more background. He explained in a note to us, "I was born in Cleveland, but I lived in California from the time I was five. The interesting thing about 'Chick-A-Boom' is that I originally did it for the TV cartoon show Sabrina and the Groovie Goolies. You were right about the lack of success of the second single. It wasn't the record I wanted to release, but [MGM honcho] Mike Curb would not give my choice a chance. The song I wanted, entitled 'I Ain't Never Seen a White Man,' was later released as the lead cut on an album I produced on Wolfman Jack. The song was a total departure from 'Chick-A-Boom,' as I never thought the hit could be followed up. No songs of that genre have ever been followed up successfully, so it remains to be seen if 'Who Let the Dogs Out' will break the jinx. Anyway, it still feels good to know that someone still remembers my one hit wonder after all these years.""

"Dick Monda has one of the more out-there resumes you’ll find. He produced the music for the great 70’s Saturday morning cartoon Groovy Goolies, and enjoyed his 15 minutes of fame with a charting single actually written for that show, Chick-A-Boom, which he performed under the nom-de-plume Daddy Dewdrop (backed by a group of session dudes named…The Torrance Cookers.) In addition to this, he apparently was in a Troma movie about dismembered strippers (natch) called Body Parts. More recently he worked on a Ringo Starr Christmas album. Like I said, out there."

I hadn't remembered the song until I was reading some stuff about the cartoon.

But, when I read the title, I found I could sing the chorus on-key, and remember part

of the video, with the doors opening and shutting.

Of course, the chorus is an "ear worm", and I can't STOP singing the chorus on-key now.....

If anyone finds the cartoons, or the entire song somewhere, I might be able to clear it from my brain....

Anyway, I found this to be a FAScinating story, but I suppose none of you did-unless you watched the

cartoon.

Sorry.

This is an unofficial response to WW's unofficial entry. I don't know if the chorus contains the song's name, but if it did, it would be something like "Spill [the] wine, Take that girl". --- at least that's what it sounded like to me, but they could have said something completely different (kinda like "Standing in the Shower With My Love" Hehe.) and don't know who did it.

You're thinking of "Spill the Wine",

by War, with Eric Burdon (of the Animals.)

I got this one right earlier in this thread.

Here's what you were thinking....

"I was once out strolling one very hot summer's day

When I thought I'd lay myself down to rest

in a big field of tall grass

I lay there in the sun and felt it caressing my face

And I fell asleep and dreamed

I dreamed I was in a Hollywood movie

And that I was the star of the movie

This really blew my mind, the fact that me,

an overfed, long-haired leaping gnome

should be the star of a Hollywood movie

But there I was, I was taken to a place, the hall of the mountain kings

I stood high upon a mountain top, naked to the world

In front of every kind of girl, there was

black ones, round ones, big ones, crazy ones...

Out of the middle came a lady

She whispered in my ear something crazy

She said:

Spill the wine and take that pearl, Spill the wine and take that pearl

Spill the wine and take that pearl, Spill the wine and take that pearl

[spoken:]

I thought to myself what could that mean

Am I going crazy or is this just a dream

Now, wait a minute

I know I'm lying in a field of grass somewhere

so it's all in my head

and then.. I heard her say one more time:

[sung:]

Spill the wine and take that pearl, Spill the wine and take that pearl

Spill the wine and take that pearl, Spill the wine and take that pearl

[spoken:]

I could feel hot flames of fire roaring at my back

As she disappeared, but soon she returned

In her hand was a bottle of wine, in the other, a glass

She poured some of the wine from the bottle into the glass

And raised it to her lips

And just before she drank it, she said:

[sung:]

Spill the wine and take that pearl, Spill the wine and take that pearl

Spill the wine and take that pearl, Spill the wine and take that pearl

This isn't a proper turn or anything, and I consider this song unfairly difficult.

But I'm curious if anybody can name it without looking it up.

So, if nobody minds a song out of any turn.....

"Last night I had a crazy dream

About a chick in a black bikini.

Oh, she looked so good,

She couldn't be real-

She must be a magic genie.

But then she disappeared around the corner.

All I saw were three doors

And the top of her bikini.

I made it through the first door.

There was a party going on.

I asked about the chick,

But what they said was freaky..."

Um,

I agree,

but I'm really hoping for some discussion on connecting-the-dots.

I mean, that's some of the pieces right there.

What's the order they fit in?

I might offer the same challenge -- see how far your perpetual allegations of alleged crimes at the hands of twi implementing its corps program go in a court of law.

Personal accounts of the victims, and of eyewitnesses, go a long way in a court

of law.....

The statute of limitations would be more of an obstacle.

BTW,

do you really think you're convincing anyone this is really about being fair?

Personally,

I liked it better when you were candid and said things like

"Has nothing to do with the integrity of the Word, but believing something very evil about a person who means something to you and you love."

when addressing discussions about the evil, criminal, unChristian actions of vpw.

At least there was no pretense you were doing other than trying to protect your mental image of

what "the good old days" were like.

OM,

I am truly happy for you. That you can be so steel-minnded, so self-confident that you have no need for the approval of leadership. You were not moved to be fear-motivated. You were content with your place in the world and your life with your God.

OTOH - there were many, many others, who got into the ministry to escape broken homes and disfunctional families. Ohters who followed the love and came for the promise of the "more than abundant life" with all the prosperity and health and promises that the Word had to offer.

Yes, this was a choice. Yes, they were free to leave at any time. Do you have any idea, can you empathize in the least, with how hard it is for someone who has come seeking love and approval to turn from the very ministry that promised to give them health, prosperity, love, a meaningful life - all through the FOUNDATIONAL class?

And.. how easy it is to manipulate a person who wants approval? Whether intentional or not, a person who has been starved for love and approval - a person who seeks such from God Almighty, is hard put to "just leave."

Remember, that the MOG represented God to us. NO?

He spoke for God, he acted for God, he listened to God.....supposedly.

How, pray tell, is a person who came seeking love, who came seeking approval, who came seeking answers supposed to leave it all behind without having to face a major PERSONAL FAILURE? This person has to admit personal defeat, and face the rejection of the very God that they were told loved them.

Oh - but we were not to have condemnation.... ri-i-i-ight.

So if a person gets sick and then gets prayed for and then gets prayed for again, then goes to the doctor, then maybe gets healed - finally - it that person's fault??? What? You are really going to blame that person for not believing "big enough?" (whatever THAT meant!)

Geez Louise - that person is already sick. Seems to me they need healing and comfort. Doesn't the Word say in SEVERAL places that we are to administer mercy?

Shoot, why is it that vpw could be moved to change after his sermon about alcoholism while the drunkard was at the back of the chapel - But! - later became that very same person who condemned sin and weakness (not to mention becoming the alcoholic himself.)

You can say that these people made a choice - just be aware that you know not of what you speak. Find some compassion and some mercy.

Dooj,

I applaud your goals,

but he hasn't found compassion in his heart for the last few years (at the very least)

for vpw and lcm's victims, so if I was a betting man, I'd put all my money on

"heart of stone" for the foreseeable future.

One question I ask would be:

How noble is it to sue for something one has willingly accepted?

Skipping the highly subjective label "noble"

(else I ask how "noble" it is to do all the things vpw did),

let's ask a question that is NOT subjective:

Could one successfully sue twi for injuries taken in LEAD,

or for requiring hitchhiking, resulting in being hit with a car or raped,

or suing on behalf of a participant murdered on their way to/from LEAD?

Well, judging from OM,

you would think a judge would see the dead body, or the injured

or raped party, say "he who consents cannot receive an injury"

and close the case immediately.

That, of course, would NOT happen.

That's because those running a program-or ANY institution-

have a responsibility to ensure their institution or program is SAFE.

There's a LaZerTag arena I used to frequent.

The walls and partitions are all covered with low-density plastic.

If you ran fullspeed into either, you'd bounce.

They TELL people there's no running, nor climbing on the partitions,

nor crawling thru the arena.

They have referees monitoring the match, and they are looking

specifically for infractions of this.

WHY?

There's a release on all the applications, saying the person accepts

responsibility for their own actions.

But if you were playing in the arena, and suddenly tripped over

another player, and a running opponent crushed your left hand

under his fat boot, you could sue the arena-and win.

WHY?

Because they're supposed to ensure the safety IN the arena.

There's supposed to be nobody to trip OVER.

There's supposed to be nobody running at ALL.

They're running the session-therefore they accept the LEGAL RESPONSIBILITY

to ensure the safety of the participants.

You participated willingly, correct.

You knew there would be other players, correct.

However,

if there's danger present,

then the organization has MISREPRESENTED themselves

and held forth that this is safe and not dangerous.

==========

Let's say you join an adults organization-

the Princes of Magellan or something.

They organize a get-together involving a mountain-climb.

You agree.

To get there, you are REQUIRED to hitchhike, and you'll

be expected to mountain-climb.

One person never gets there-he was mugged hitchhiking

and he's in the hospital.

One person takes a 30-foot fall off the mountain due to

insecure supports.

Both will sue the organization-and win.

The courts of the USA KNOW (they see it as self-evident)

that the group in charge of the event is required to MINIMIZE

risks-and this one MAXIMIZED some of them.

(PLUS required someone to break the law.)

And just because you have a deep, unshakeable loyalty for the

Princes of Magellan, that does not change their responsibility.

I would opine that that would indicate a total lack of responsibility and/or of owning up to one's own decisions and actions, on the part of the suer.

Experts in what is acceptable risk and responsibility would disagree,

to the tune of lots of money.

Finger pointing blame. It's always someone else's fault, in this case twi.

Oversimplifying. It's never twi's-or vpw's-fault. EVER.

WordWolf:

"Walking along the median strip of the highway, in and of itself, is not particularly dangerous.

I suppose it can prove to be dangerous if something goes amiss-

like a driver jumps the median at the wrong moment.

Walking through Central Park late at night, in and of itself, is not particularly dangerous.

I suppose it can prove to be dangerous if something goes amiss-

like, say, a guy with a knife and a black cape is hanging out in that area at that moment.

Getting your evening excercise by wandering up and down the stairs in the projects,

in and of itself, is not particularly dangerous. I suppose it can prove to be dangerous

if something goes amiss-like a drug-user or mugger finds you.

Now,

if a program claimed to BENEFIT you insisted that you would be REQUIRED to do each,

most sensible people would-at the very least-insist on discussing the possible benefits

of engaging what is known to be a dangerous activity

(whether or not it dangerous "in and of itself".)

Most programs, you may be surprised to know, DON'T require things like those or

hitchhiking. Of course, most programs are designed by people who actually

know something ABOUT leadership programs,

and don't view the participants as DISPOSABLE."

George Aar:

"Then there's also a thing called "risk/benefit analysis". A thing that was entirely disregarded at WayWorld, near as I can tell.

Like - a couple of girls hitchhiking alone through Texas in the winter. I can definitely see a markedly increased risk. But what were the benefits? I mean, other than the fact that it was a way to transport the girls somewhere at no cost to VPW?"

This isn't rocket science for most people....

Most programs, you may be surprised to know, DON'T require things like those or

hitchhiking. Of course, most programs are designed by people who actually

know something ABOUT leadership programs,

and don't view the participants as DISPOSABLE.

It was "designed" by people who didn't particularly care about-nor understand-

the consequences to the people who had to try and live through them.

It was CLAIMED to challenge and expand one's abilities.

Much of it was "retake all the classes", or "go and run some pfal classes on the field"

or "clean up the grounds",

with some breaks for "go hitchhike over there" and some other things.

Now,

in case people out there need documentation of this,

since I haven't typed out the exact wording vpw used when he said he wasn't

concerned about the risk of rape to LEAD hitchhikers,

I'll use some documentation I have handy.

lcm on someone in the corps having an attack, and what vpw

thought was the appropriate response to it.

"There was an incident of a guy in the Corps who all of a sudden went

'gooney-bird'. He started to babble and not make sense. LCM worked hard

with the guy to help him but he was incoherent. Dr, when he met him,

confronted him by asking- 'Son, how come you're letting your mind get

all scrambled?' The guy answered unintelligibly and Dr told him that it would

be best for him just to pack his bags and go home. The guy understood

that. He left.

LCM spent many hours and many long distance phone calls trying to make

sure the guy had gotten home from his bus ride home safely. Not being

able to verify his location, he was concerned. Dr told him to move on.

There's nothing you can do, he'll show up at home soon enough. A week

later the guy did show up at home."

INCOHERENT.

TOLD TO PACK HIS BAGS AND GO HOME.

SHOVED ON A BUS.

TOOK A WEEK TO GET HOME BY BUS.

God only knows all the wanderings he had,

and what the attack even WAS.

Just shove him off-grounds then "MOVE ON, THERE'S NOTHING YOU CAN DO."

In a word, DISPOSABLE.

And all the multisyllabic terms someone retrieved from their thesaurus

can't change the HEARTLESS, UNCHRISTIAN attitude the "program"

was run with.

WW,

True.. but in my case it wasn't vpw. It was lcm.

lcm didn't START OUT that way, but he learned it eventually from vpw.

http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...c=8019&st=0

especially check out the bottom of page 4 and top of page 5.

lcm proudly documented it!

"This movement was inspired by authors like Friedrich Nietzsche, Goethe, Hermann Hesse (Siddhartha), and Eduard Baltzer, who wrote about how modern man’s material yearnings were taking us away from our balance with nature and leading to spiritual and physical diseases. Thousands of young Germans turned their backs on modern society and sought a return to nature and the pagan spiritual life of their ancestors.

"With their emphasis on Free Love, hippies promoted many of the same counterculture beliefs that found early expresssion in the Beat Generation. Both Beats and Hippies advocated for legal and societal acceptance of most forms of consensual sexual expression outside the traditional bounds of marriage and procreation, with the notable exception of sex with children."

"In fact, hippie domestic life seemed largely to default to traditional gender roles, with women doing most of the work -- cooking, cleaning, child care, etc. -- while the men engaged in creative, artistic pursuits. "

From the "characteristics" section, I found this...

"# Free love, including open relationships and most consensual forms of sexual expression, except sex with children. Traditional legal constructs and religious teachings that prohibited non-procreative sex outside the bounds of marriage were widely flouted--premarital sex, extramarital sex, bisexuality and homosexuality. (See also: Sexual revolution).

# Communal living

# A fondness for nudity"

"Some feminists of the late 20th century would interpret the free love ethic of the 1960s and 1970s as a manipulative strategy against a women's ability to say no to sex."

"Unrestrained sexuality became a new norm in some of these youth movements, leading certain feminists to critique the 60s/70s "free love" as a way for men to pressure women into sex; women who said "no" could be characterized as prudish and uptight."

===========

Uncle Harry slipping in some German nationalism in his dialogue,

pg-79 of TW:LiL

"

VP always likes things done right, done the way they should be done.

That's why at the Sunday night service everything is checked right up to

snuff. See? Perfect. But that's the way we were brought up years ago.

Our German people were not afraid of work. I guess that stays with you."

Rhoda W, pg-91, TW:LiL

The growth among the young people began after

Dr. Wierwille made his trip to California the winter of 1967-68.

Then they began to come out here. First Steve and Sandi Heefner,

then more and more others.

Things really started speeding up after that. The young people were

mostly hippies-people with long hair. They really took to the

ministry because it made things fit for them."

vpw himself, pg-211, about Dr E.E. Higgins...

""She taught me the great respect and love I have for the

human body-the tenderness of it. She loved the body, like I love

the Word of God. She just stood in awe of how magnificently it was

put together. She rid me of my hang-ups, that false stuff, and

taught me the beauty of the human body. We used to talk about the

human body-where the life was located.""

vpw, pg-231,

on the "Christian hippies" at the House of Acts...

"I went with him. We got there. The women were in the

kitchen: Sandi Heefner, Judy Doop and Ted's wife. It was interesting

because they were mixing up stuff-a big green salad in a bowl,

bread, doing a whole trip.

I don't know how many we had around the table- maybe 16 -and then the

men came home, Steve Heefner and Jimmy Doop. They had just spent

the day witnessing in Haight-Ashbury.

We all had supper together.

The women cleaned the table and all the men yakked.

And finally we got around to the Word. The discussion centered around the Holy Spirit. "

""And I liked especially the tenderness among them. You see,

they themselves had previously been on sex and dope, so they didn't

find fault with everything all the time. They'd hug and kiss each

other and that I liked. They were always affectionate. I saw a lot

that I liked there."

JD, about something that vpw said back IN 1967-1968....

"As we relaxed and had a second drink, he asked Judy and me to describe

what it was like to attend an orgy. We were taken back by the question

and embarassed by it, because even though it was part of our testimony

in our deliverance from sin to God's righteousness, no one had ever

asked us to describe what it was like to go to an orgy.

We found his curiousity shocking.

But we gave him a brief description which is really all we could give him

since our encounter with an orgy had been so brief.

We had attended one orgy sponsored by the San Francisco

Sexual Freedom League, but we were so overwhelmed by the

spectacle that we had left after twenty minutes.

'You know that's all available," V.P. said.

'God put it in I Corinthians 7:1 which He said

"It is good for a man not to touch a woman."

If it wasn't available to have sex outside the marriage

God would have said "best" instead of "good".

I could not believe what I was hearing.

I responded with 'I just thank God that He pulled

our souls out of that pit of debauchery.'

When Judy and I went to bed, I said to her,

'I don't believe what he said tonight,

and I'm going to forget it.

I must have misunderstood him.' "

Someone's summary of JD using 20/20 hindsight to describe vpw...

"Weirwille sought things to validate his position. He did NOT research the word and change his opinion to IT. I becamed pretty good friends with Jim D*0p. He told me that he, Jim, had a ministry where they were sexually loose and an anything goes kinda group out in California. Weirwille flew out there, telling folks it was to talk with Jim about the Bible and witness or something to him. Jim told me Weirwille flew out there to LEARN from Jimmy about the free sex thinking. Weirwille said he always believed sex should be free and allowed with as many as you feel you want to be with -- but could NEVER prove it from the Bible. He was there to see if Jimmy could prove it was okay via scripture.

D0*p never really could and was more of a hippie minister than a sexual pervert looking for Biblical validation.

Weirwille had these concepts, notions, urges, illnesses and tried to find a way to SELL them to us. He was not about to CHANGE his thinking according to scripture. He was not a researcher. He was similar to a lot of cult leaders. He had an idea and looked for people who would buy into it. Like Charlie Manson."

One of the corps grads on vpw teaching the corps when the rest of us weren't looking....

"He also told a small group at Emporia one night to teach their children about their bodies, "you can brush their nipple with your hand and show them how it hardens. You can show them not to be ashamed of their body reactions" Then he shared about the African Tribe where the Father broke the hymen of the daughters to get them experienced in sex to prepare them for marriage -- he thought it to be beautiful.

VPW had already let me see his dark side. Sitting there I thought OH MY GOD, this is subtle but

he is teaching this group that it is beautiful to teach your daughters how to have sex, it is just not accepted in our culture!

He was standing behind his sex problems and setting us up to have sex with our godly "family" as well as the earthly one."

OM

I see it a little diferently than that.

Yes, we new that we would be challenged in many ways and we were. But, why is it so important to "Hitchhike"? That's not challenging nor is it biblical.

I and many others had a car. The main objective in going " Light Bearers" was to run a PFAL class.. period.

You had two weeks to get it together. Now.... that's CHALLENGING.

Not only are you walking unfamiliar streets, going door to door, bars etc... to meet people. If you didn't

have a car loaned to you while you were there, you had to use your thumb.

I happened to go to Denver.... in the winter. NOT FUN

I'm just saying that it would've been so much easier if we had our own cars.

Again, we were sent out ONLY TO START A CLASS!!! Not to risk our lives :(

But, vpw didn't mind that your lives were risked, nor did he care when it was

brought to his attention.....

The operative term being "didn't care"

QT, I can't speak for Johniam, but I need the facts of a particular situation first before giving an opinion.

*clears throat*

Regarding hitchhiking, I personally do not believe hitchhiking was particularly dangerous in and of itself. I suppose it can prove to be dangerous if something goes amiss, just like anything else.

I suppose it can prove to be dangerous if something goes amiss-

like a driver jumps the median at the wrong moment.

Walking through Central Park late at night, in and of itself, is not particularly dangerous.

I suppose it can prove to be dangerous if something goes amiss-

like, say, a guy with a knife and a black cape is hanging out in that area at that moment.

Getting your evening excercise by wandering up and down the stairs in the projects,

in and of itself, is not particularly dangerous. I suppose it can prove to be dangerous

if something goes amiss-like a drug-user or mugger finds you.

Now,

if a program claimed to BENEFIT you insisted that you would be REQUIRED to do each,

most sensible people would-at the very least-insist on discussing the possible benefits

of engaging what is known to be a dangerous activity

(whether or not it dangerous "in and of itself".)

Most programs, you may be surprised to know, DON'T require things like those or

hitchhiking. Of course, most programs are designed by people who actually

know something ABOUT leadership programs,

and don't view the participants as DISPOSABLE.

It can be dangerous driving a car, or just walking down the street, depending on the circumstances. Being in the world, one may die or suffer consequences in a whole host of different ways and means.

I think just because an act may be perilous, or risky, doesn't necessarily mean one shouldn't try it ... but again, that's for the individual to decide. But in the corps folks couldn't make up their own rules and knew that going in. It was/is a training program... designed to challenge and expand one's abilities.

It was "designed" by people who didn't particularly care about-nor understand-

the consequences to the people who had to try and live through them.

It was CLAIMED to challenge and expand one's abilities.

Much of it was "retake all the classes", or "go and run some pfal classes on the field"

or "clean up the grounds",

with some breaks for "go hitchhike over there" and some other things.

Why did they do this stuff?

I think a lot of it had to do with the macho personna that the leadership wanted to portray - except with them it was usually "macho by proxy", in that the lives they were putting on the line were not their own.

Plus the fact that it's a whole bunch cheaper to leave all the transportation and logistics to your vassals. Lord knows there were lots more toys that the MOG and mini-mogs needed.

And the mindset of living recklessly WAS encouraged. I remember many teachings about "Renewed-mind recklessness", "cutting the safety nets", or "letting go and letting God". It was an integral part of WayWorld Dogma. Anybody who says less is being disingenuous, IMNSHO.

And of course, when things DID go wrong they could quickly hush it up, paper it over, or - if all else failed - BLAME THE VICTIM. That always worked...

STILL works, as far as some people see it....

Now then,

the conspiracy theories vpw got from the Liberty Lobby

and from the John Birch Society.

Here's from the page on the LL, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_Lobby

"While Liberty Lobby was founded as a conservative political organization, Willis Carto was known to hold strongly anti-Semitic views, and to be a devotee of the writings of Francis Parker Yockey, who was one of a handful of esoteric post-WWII writers who revered Adolf Hitler. Yockey, writing under the pseudonym of Ulick Varange, wrote a book entitled Imperium, which Willis Carto adopted as his own guiding ideology.

Many critics, including disgruntled former Carto associates as well as the Anti-Defamation League, have noted that Willis Carto, more than anybody else, was responsible for keeping organized anti-Semitism alive as a viable political movement during the 1950s, 1960s, and 1970s, when it was otherwise completely discredited."

"Liberty Lobby attempted to promote a public image of being a conservative anti-Communist group, along the lines of the John Birch Society, but while the John Birch Society rejected white supremacy and anti-Semitism, Liberty Lobby promoted them. Francis Parker Yockey's Imperium was republished by Willis Carto's Noontide Press, which also published a number of other books and pamphlets promoting a racialist and white supremacist world view, and Liberty Lobby in turn sold and promoted these books."

"In 1975, Liberty Lobby began publishing a weekly newspaper called The Spotlight, which ran news and opinion articles with a very populist and anti-establishment slant on a variety of subjects, but gave little indication of being extreme-right or neo-Nazi. However, The Spotlight, critics charged, was intended as a subtle recruiting tool for the extreme right, using populist-sounding articles to attract people from all points on the political spectrum including liberals, moderates, and conservatives, and special-interest articles to attract people interested in such subjects as alternative medicine, while the newspaper subtly incorporated anti-Semitic and white racialist undertones in its articles, and carried advertisements in the classified section for openly neo-Nazi groups and books. The Spotlight for a while became the most widely-read periodical on the right in the United States, with circulation peaking around 200,000 in the early 1980s. While circulation experienced a steady drop after that, it continued to be published until Liberty Lobby's demise in 2001."

And here's the John Birch Society, from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Birch_Society ...

"The JBS claims that collectivist conspiracies throughout the world have significantly shaped history, and it seeks to expose and eliminate their claimed control in government in the modern era. This degree of conspiracism has isolated the Society from many other conservative groups."

" "According to Welch," writes Political Research Associates in its analysis of the Birchers, "both the US and Soviet governments are controlled by the same furtive conspiratorial cabal of internationalists, greedy bankers, and corrupt politicians. If left unexposed, the traitors inside the US government would betray the country's sovereignty to the United Nations for a collectivist New World Order managed by a 'one-world socialist government.' The Birch Society incorporated many themes from pre-WWII rightist groups opposed to the New Deal, and had its base in the business nationalist sector…"

Welch saw "collectivism" as the main threat to western civilization, and liberals as "secret communist traitors" who provide the cover for the gradual process of collectivism, with the ultimate goal of replacing the nations of western civilization with one-world socialist government. "There are many stages of welfarism, socialism, and collectivism in general," he wrote, "but communism is the ultimate state of them all, and they all lead inevitably in that direction." "

"Much of the Society's early conspiracism, according to Political Research Associates, "reflects an ultraconservative business nationalist critique of business internationalists networked through groups such as the Council on Foreign Relations (CFR). The CFR is viewed through a conspiracist lens as puppets of the Rockefeller family in a 1952 book by Joe McCarthy fan Emanuel M. Josephson, Rockefeller, 'Internationalist': The Man Who Misrules the World. In 1962 Dan Smoot's The Invisible Government added several other policy groups to the list of conspirators, including the Committee for Economic Development, the Advertising Council, the Atlantic Council (formerly the Atlantic Union Committee), the Business Advisory Council, and the Trilateral Commission. Smoot had worked at FBI headquarters in Washington, DC before leaving to establish an anticommunist newsletter, the Dan Smoot Report. The shift from countersubversion on behalf of the FBI to countersubversion in the private sector was an easy one. The basic thesis was the same. In Smoot's concluding chapter, he wrote, 'Somewhere at the top of the pyramid in the invisible government are a few sinister people who know exactly what they are doing: They want America to become part of a worldwide socialist dictatorship, under the control of the Kremlin.'" Birchers elaborated on an earlier Illuminati/Freemason conspiracy theory, imagining "an unbroken ideologically driven conspiracy linking the Illuminati, the French Revolution, the rise of Marxism and Communism, the Council on Foreign Relations, and the United Nations". Unlike most advocates of the Illuminati-Freemason conspiracy theory, however, the Birch Society strenuously denies harboring any anti-Semitic ideation, and indeed claims many Jews among its membership. At one point a key leader in the JBS, Revilo P. Oliver, resigend after a dispute over his veering off into antisemitic conspiracy theories in public. "

" In October 1964, the Idaho Statesman newspaper expressed concern about what it called an "ominous" increase in JBS-led "ultra-right" radio and television broadcasts, which it said then numbered 7,000 weekly and cost an estimated $10 million annually. "By virtue of saturation tactics used, radical, reactionary propaganda is producing an impact even on large numbers of people who, themselves, are in no sense extremists or sympathetic to extremist views," declared a Statesman editorial. "When day after day they hear distortions of fact and sinister charges against persons or groups, often emanating from organizations with conspicuously respectable sounding names, it is no wonder that the result is: Confusion on some important public issues; stimulation of latent prejudices; creation of suspicion, fear and mistrust in relation not only to their representatives in government, but even in relation to their neighbors.” "

Ok, for those of us who were not flower children,

and those of us who could use a refresher,

1967-1968 seems to have been a big year for the hippie movement-

at least for the public news reports of them.

It's also when vpw acted on information.

I pulled this from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippie

"Time and history revisionists have obscured the true origins and influence of the hippies, whose roots stretch back 100 years to Europe. Around the turn of the century (1890s), there was an active movement in Europe to return to the natural life away from the polluted, crowded cities. This movement was inspired by authors like Friedrich Nietzsche, Goethe, Hermann Hesse (Siddhartha), and Eduard Baltzer, who wrote about how modern man’s material yearnings were taking us away from our balance with nature and leading to spiritual and physical diseases. Thousands of young Germans turned their backs on modern society and sought a return to nature and the pagan spiritual life of their ancestors. They embraced a variety of radical lifestyles including vegetarianism, fasting, raw food diets, nudism, organic farming, communal living, sun and nature worship, etc. These ideas were introduced into the US over several decades as one by one these Germans settled in various places around the country,"

"With their emphasis on Free Love, hippies promoted many of the same counterculture beliefs that found early expresssion in the Beat Generation. Both Beats and Hippies advocated for legal and societal acceptance of most forms of consensual sexual expression outside the traditional bounds of marriage and procreation, with the notable exception of sex with children."

"In fact, hippie domestic life seemed largely to default to traditional gender roles, with women doing most of the work -- cooking, cleaning, child care, etc. -- while the men engaged in creative, artistic pursuits. Images of women in hippie art abound, generally as innocents, goddesses or muses. Most hippie entrepreneurs, philosophers, commune founders and leaders, writers and artists were men."

"At their inception, the back to the land movement, cooperative business enterprises, alternative energy, free press movement, and organic farming were all politically motivated hippie enterprises."

"Hippies tended to travel light and were able to pick up and go to wherever the action was at any given time, whether that was a "love-in" on Mount Tamalpais near San Francisco, a demonstration against the Vietnam War in Berkeley, one of Ken Kesey's "Acid Tests" or just because the "vibe" wasn't right and a change of scene was desired. Pre-planning was eschewed and most were happy to put a few clothes in a backpack, stick out their thumbs and hitchhike to just about anywhere. Hippies seldom worried about whether or not they had money, hotel reservations or any of the standard accoutrements of travel. Because most hippie households welcomed overnight guests on an impromptu basis, the reciprocal nature of the lifestyle permitted enormous freedom of movement. People generally co-operated to meet each other's needs in ways that became less common after 1971. This way of life is still seen today among some Rainbow Family participants."

From the "characteristics" section, I found this...

"# Free love, including open relationships and most consensual forms of sexual expression, except sex with children. Traditional legal constructs and religious teachings that prohibited non-procreative sex outside the bounds of marriage were widely flouted--premarital sex, extramarital sex, bisexuality and homosexuality. (See also: Sexual revolution).

# Communal living

# A fondness for nudity"

Now then,

on their "free love" page, ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_love ),

I found this....

"While the phrase "free love" is often associated with promiscuity in the popular imagination, especially in reference to the counterculture of the 1960s and 1970s, historically the free love movement has not advocated multiple sexual partners. Rather, it has argued that love relations which are freely entered into should not be regulated by law. Thus, free love practice may include long-term monogamous relationships or even celibacy, but would not include institutional forms of polygamy such as a king and his concubines."

Interesting how vpw skipped this stage.

Perhaps he was just a victim of his times...

Then again,

"The history of free love is entwined with the history of feminism."

"Some feminists of the late 20th century would interpret the free love ethic of the 1960s and 1970s as a manipulative strategy against a women's ability to say no to sex."

"Free love became a prominent phrase used by and about the new social movements and counterculture of the 1960s and 1970s, typified by the Summer of Love in 1967 and the slogan "make love not war". Unrestrained sexuality became a new norm in some of these youth movements, leading certain feminists to critique the 60s/70s "free love" as a way for men to pressure women into sex; women who said "no" could be characterized as prudish and uptight."

This spun off the 1976 discussion, since I didn't want to derail the memories.

It looks like some policies were the results of some things hippies were

already doing in the late 60s/ early 70s.

It looks like some policies were the results of some ideas conspiracy theorists

were putting forth.

It looks like some policies were just because they saved money or allowed

pervs to satisfy their sexual jollies in any of a number of ways.

So, a thread to discuss them all.

What practices existed,

and what were the most likely reasons FOR those practices?

You know, I've been following this thread from the beginning, and I don't want to derail, and I spent an hour putting together a lengthy post with quotes from the thread and my own thoughts, but, in the end, what I want to know from johniam and oldiesman in specific, and anyone else who cares to answer is this...

Are you saying, because in your opinion Hitch-hiking was not 1. particularly dangerous and 2. a specific mandate of TWI (though I should think the strongest case made so far is that both of those were inherently true considering the posts we've just read)...that there was something amiss with the believing of the people who were injured, harmed, raped or more while hitch-hiking at the behest of their leadership?

Because that sounds like some of the most twisted logic I can imagine. That is the sort of logic that is parallel to, "She was dressed in sexy clothes, she deserved to get raped--it's her own fault." and "Well, if he hadn't been in the wrong part of town, he would never have been mugged--it's his own fault."

And, the inverse therefore is: "She had a breakdown in her believing, she brought it on herself."

Which very wrongly assigns blame to the victim of a crime. But, then, why should I be surprised? Such logic has dominated the thinking of close-minded, judgmental, self-righteous hypocrites for ages. It's nothing new, but it is hard to swallow. Covering up for policies you KNOW are dangerous and have caused injury makes you nothing short of an accomplice to a crime.

And do NOT try to pass off the argument of "TWI never MADE anyone hitchhike." just because LCM wasn't standing on the side of the highway with a gun pointed to a corps-person's head saying "hitchhike or else!" because anyone who has endured the extreme pressure from someone in authority knows that coercion doesn't always take place at the point of a knife or barrel of a gun.

If someone tells you, "This is the highest calling for your life, and if you fail you will let down not only those who have cared for you, but, indeed, you will have failed GOD...so go, do this thing and get your mind right."

That isn't just a threat for the moment, or quick consequences...that's guilt for an eternity.

So...really now...is this what we're saying? I repeat my original question: Is it the opinion of some here that the people who WERE injured and worse asked for it by not "activating their believing" enough...or, even more foul, that they were believing FOR it to happen?

Because, that's certainly what can be inferred by some of these posts.

I, for one, find the entire idea to be the heart of wickedness. Which is a phrase I don't think I've ever used before.

and...some of these posts have made me ashamed for how little progress we've made as a species.

Very sorry indeed,

QT

In case it was missed, QT made this post a page back.

But you still had a choice, to hitchhike, or not to hitchhike and go home.[/size]

The corps had some downright challenging stuff. Lots of us spiritual partners knew that it was intense training, which was why we financially supported folks like you who agreed to do it.

But don't tell me you were forced please ... you had a choice.

Technically correct, it was (almost always) a choice.

You could choose to risk life and limb (and break the law) and hitchhike,

or

you could pack your bags and go home.

But let's not oversimplify the situation....

IF you chose the second option- "pack your bags and go home",

you were FIRST subjected to a face-melting session from AT LEAST ONE

supposed "leader" of twi, who equated you with the scum at the bottom of the

pond, for "turning your back on God" (refusing to risk your life and break the law by hitchhiking)

and be given one more chance to avoid the disapproval of GOD ALMIGHTY,

the entire leadership-especially lcm, vpw, etc,

the entire staff-who will be told you were weak, scum, etc.,

and "your spiritual partners" (people like Oldiesman who would give you

crap for not risking your life and breaking the law at their say-so)

and to change your mind.

If you elected NOT to do this even after the emotional abuse,

then you better pack fast, because you're off the grounds immediately,

and it's up to you to figure out how to get somewhere else,

let alone where to go.

Of course, people who were kicked out of the corps (because that amounts

to being kicked out) suffer emotional trauma-which was the idea, after

all, with the screaming session. At least one committed suicide for it.

But the suicide, technically speaking, IS a choice. One is not forced to

commit suicide just because one is made to feel like they've disappointed

God Almighty and are fit only for death. That IS a choice.

Nobody here, as far as I saw, ever said those were not choices.

Pretending we DID say that is neither honest nor honorable.

Not that this qualifies as news.

We were IF we loved God.

Oh suuuuure.....it WAS ok to be a failure a dissapointment by not complying with leaderships orders...but you were forever branded spiritual *LOSER* <_<

Destined to live out the rest of your life in shame, viewed as spiritually *questionable* a spiritual *wimp*

Most of us would have rather died (and some did) than be a dissapointment to God.

Yeah we were forced IF we loved God.

Technically, that IS a choice.

It's a horribly-slanted choice, and it's presented as if one means life,

and one means a living DEATH-

which is how they wanted it seen-

but that IS a choice.

You COULD choose to be made a pariah, an outcast, worthy to be trampled underfoot

and not even worthy to eat dog food.

That was ALWAYS a choice.

For MOST people, anyway.

Of course, T*m M NEVER had that choice for him and his wife-

since lcm insisted on keeping HER on grounds because she made a dandy sex-slave.

Small wonder why T*m M made the CHOICE to scream about it in public,

how he could not "compete" with lcm,

and why T*m M made the CHOICE to pick up a pistol and blow his brains out.

All of those were choices, too.

VMP is Victim Mentality Propaganda, a mindset that you and some others engage in repeatedly, against all that is twi.

Victim Mentality Propaganda has 2 meanings.

1) A process used to impede healing after one had been victimized by a perpetrator.

2) a label invoked to protect a perpetrator when someone's attempting to expose him-

take the emphasis and the 'heat' off the criminal by blaming the victim.

In this case, it's the label.

Portray everyone as helpless victims of Wierwille and twi. That's it, in a nutshell.

and nobody's portrayed "everyone" as helpless.

Therefore your label lacks merit.

However, blanket terms like "everyone" are fairly reliable indicators that the speaker

is busy making a blanket accusation rather than seeking to find the truth or

convey the truth.

Wordwolf, because of your corrupt and hateful thinking of all that is twi, your analysis is biased, and your hatred continues to corrupt you.

Since I've never condemned "all that is twi",

this claim lacks merit.

Since I operate coldly and without hatred,

the second claim lacks merit.

And calling someone exposing crimes of twi "corrupt"

while hiding the felonies of the criminals is more than mildly ironic.