WordWolf

Next song.

"I thought I knew what love was- what did I know.

Those days are gone forever-I should just let them go, but"

Proving that there is life after Led Zeppelin

Tall Cool One Robert Plant

Correct! Off the "Now and Zen" album, a sweet set of songs, IMHO.

Wanted a woman, never bargained for you.

Lots of people talk and few of them know,

soul of a woman was created below.

You hurt and abuse tellin' all of your lies.

Run around sweet baby, Lord how they hypnotize.

Sweet little baby, I don't know where you've been.

Gonna love you baby, here I come again.

If I'm right, it's a song quite descriptive of my mood this second,

"DAZED AND CONFUSED", from Plant's days IN Led Zepellin.

I always thought the line was

"the soul of a woman was created for love".

"Move over mister - step on back in the crowd!

'Cause she's a whole lotta sister 'bout to drive me wild.

Lotta places I've been, lotta names, lotta words,

No one compares to my real gone girl."

Ok, George, just post the name...

"A what?"

"Certainly you know what a 'headache' is, Doctor."

"Of course. But I don't often encounter one."

"What are these Ferengi up to? 'Stand by, Enterprise.' Stand by for what?"

"It may be true that headaches were once quite common... but this was in the days before the brain was charted...

... before we understood the nature of pain... when we were suffering from such things as the common cold."

"It's an old style starship, Constellation Class, heading this way under impulse power, sir."

(The scripts all read "Constitution Class", but it was dubbed in post-production, since they

decided to make a new ship class for this episode.)

"Do not be alarmed. It is a gift from us...with which we honor the 'Hero of Maxia.'"

"But now that vessel is yours, if you wish to have it."

"We are not selling it to him?"

"Call it an act of friendship."

"At no cost!? Ugly. Very ugly!"

"USS Stargazer. Constellation Class. Starfleet Registry NCC 2893."

Here's how I see it.

The actual deeds, in any effective form, will have been wiped out.

I Corinthians 3:11-15 (NASB)

11For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,

13 each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work.

14If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.

15If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

So, each person's deeds will either be worth remembering, or be destroyed in the fire,

depending on the specific deed. (As of the Christian's "Day of Judgement.")

As to remembering specifics, I don't think we'll have gaps in our memories, but be

able to contextualize them properly so they're not as troublesome as some memories some

of us carry.

That's how I interpret that SPECIFICALLY when reading Revelation 21:4.

" 4and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away."

That's all IMHO, of course.

Next song.

"Lotta places I've been, lotta names, lotta words,

No one compares to my real gone girl"

Since he made the "train" and not the "bus", this isn't "A Day in the Life."

It has to be the other song with that line.

Paul Schaefer's "When the Radio Is On."

In all honesty, I only know that song from discussing it with you, but that was a long time ago....

"A what?"

"Certainly you know what a 'headache' is, Doctor."

"Of course. But I don't often encounter one."

"What are these Ferengi up to? 'Stand by, Enterprise.' Stand by for what?"

"It may be true that headaches were once quite common... but this was in the days before the brain was charted...

... before we understood the nature of pain... when we were suffering from such things as the common cold."

"It's an old style starship, Constellation Class, heading this way under impulse power, sir."

(The scripts all read "Constitution Class", but it was dubbed in post-production, since they

decided to make a new ship class for this episode.)

"Do not be alarmed. It is a gift from us...with which we honor the 'Hero of Maxia.'"

"A what?"

"Certainly you know what a 'headache' is, Doctor."

"Of course. But I don't often encounter one."

(Personally, I think that's bs, since Geordi REGULARLY got headaches due to his

'VISOR' interface. Also, 1000 people on the ship, and NOBODY complains of

headaches? C'mon....)

"What are these Ferengi up to? 'Stand by, Enterprise.' Stand by for what?"

"It may be true that headaches were once quite common... but this was in the days before the brain was charted...

... before we understood the nature of pain... when we were suffering from such things as the common cold."

(Personally, I think that's bs, since we've seen characters GET colds, including Wesley.

But this script suggests otherwise. Somebody's overly optimistic about the future....)

Justing wondering why it's okay to talk of dead wierwille being gay, or have insicurities, but not The Living Fox?

A Ge-rge or a Lomb@rdi I could see being okay with this. But not a poster.

The Fox is a devil and deserves no defense.

Actually, one amazing thing I found, when I was REQUESTING personal accounts of

each of the ex-twi presidents (including rfr),

was that some people did have pleasant recollections of vpw, at least some of the time,

and some people did have pleasant recollections of lcm, at least some of the time,

but NOBODY had a single positive memory of rfr to add to the discussions.

EVERYBODY who interacted with her personally had bad things to say about her,

without a single exception to toss into the mix.

Of course, those who know anything about her would need to be limited to staff/ex-staff,

and those "in" from about 2000 on.

Most posters dont fit in either category, and not everyone who does has something to

recall about her.

Me,

I'm waiting for the announcement that she's received twi's standard treatment-

that is, that she's been kicked out with no means of support because she's too old

to be of use. It's gone around; I'm waiting for it to come around....

These doctrines might be everywhere, but what made TWI unique was the way those scripture/doctrines were expounded upon. The way in which TWI expounded on these scriptures is/was unique to TWI, but then, you're going to find that in just about every charsimatic movement. For example some have found more insight and help understanding the law of believing through the Kenneth Hagin ministries (i.e. the Word/Faith movement) than they did in TWI, and they also think that those teaching were stolen by VPW.

I agree- plagiarized error is no less error than the original error,

and who plagiarizes it doesn't make it any LESS error.

So, it was error when Kenyon taught it, it was error when vpw plagiarized Kenyon,

it was error when Hinn plagiarized Kenyon, and so on.

Critics have claimed that Hagin never received any formal theological training, and they also allege that the bulk of his theological teachings were lifted verbatim from the writings of other authors, i.e. John A. MacMillan and E.W. Kenyon for example. Hagin's response was he had not plagiarized anyone, but his acknowledgment of MacMillan had been an oversight. He then implicitly claimed the plagiarism was proof his teaching and MacMillan's teaching were from God.

Theology, let alone any formal study of Bible languages or history.

I also agree trying to absolve plagiarism-and claim accuracy- by clever words and

lying about their BEING plagiarism in no way absolves plagiarism, neither does it

prove accuracy. Even if a lot of people taught the same thing as Hinn, a lot of

people can be wrong. "Vox populi" is not a God-given measure of truth.

Author Judith Irene Matta, M.Th., has also accused Hagin of reviving the heresy of gnosticism. Matta asserts that Kenyon's word of faith movement has basically taken over the pentecostal churches and Christian television. ... The alleged heresy is, according to Matta, lifted verbatim from Kenyon's book.

I think gnosticism has remained around and was still around before Kenyon spread his version

of it as the precursor to the Word-Faith movement. Further, the feel-good aspect of it for

the wealthy and the financially-affluent - "if I am successful, it is because I earned it through

my faith and positive believing, and those who suffer earned their suffering through their

doubt, fear and negative believing"- make it appealing to those who have the microphone.

That's why it was such an easy sell for Oprah, for example.

I don't know about it "taking over", though, I think that overstates the case.

All these accusations, a faulty doctorate, plagarism, etc. is not unique to VPW/TWI.

Skipping the real work and lying were hardly invented by vpw, nor did he own a charter

on the process of swindling under the flag of God. Some people still do it now.

Afterall, if you're teaching and expounding upon basically the same scriptures and the same doctrines as someone else but end up taking the $$$ and the people away from someone else's till, the same accusations would eventually be leveled at you.

In other words, "if you're successful, people will accuse you of plagiarism, lying about

your credentials, and other wrong things."

I disagree.

I find that a smokescreen to excuse the actuality of plagiarism, lying about credentials,

and other wrong things. Those are wrong whether or not a man catches you,

and even if I like the person who did them.

http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/exposes/hinn/general.htm

right, I'm also thinking they're dangerous too. (Benny Hinn being a more obvious example) They come from the same barrel wierwille did. I believe some are arguing Paula white, joyce meyer, osteen, (even oprah) teach this. Bad behavior stems from bad doctrine doesn't it?

Hmmm........

============

"Benny Hinn was born in 1953 in Israel to a Greek father and an Armenian mother. He was raised in the Greek Orthodox [false] religion. Hinn claims that while he was a young boy of 11 years of age in Israel, God first appeared to him, and has been appearing to him ever since. At the age of 14, Hinn moved to Canada with his parents. While attending high school there, he says he had visions of himself preaching before huge crowds. He also claims that God healed him of a stuttering problem so that he could become a preacher.

Yet in spite of the visions and God's appearing to him for several years, Hinn marks the year of his being born again as 1972 when he was about 20 years old. It was at a Kathryn Kuhlman service the following year that he says he had a "profound spiritual experience."

Hinn readily admits that much of the misunderstanding that has arisen from his teachings is the result of his lack of formal Bible training. In fact, almost immediately after his having been "born again," Hinn says, "The Lord launched me into ministry almost overnight."

"Although Hinn states that his ministry throughout the 1970s was shaped by the writings of men like D.L. Moody and R.A. Torrey, he was a strong proponent of "revelation knowledge" -- new truths revealed to him by God directly -- that were not contained within Scripture. Only recently has he stated that he will no longer claim revelation knowledge as the authority for his teachings. [see the end of this report of Hinn once again claiming revelation knowledge]."

=============

Sounds vaguely familiar....

Hmmm........

============

"Benny Hinn was born in 1953 in Israel to a Greek father and an Armenian mother. He was raised in the Greek Orthodox [false] religion. Hinn claims that while he was a young boy of 11 years of age in Israel, God first appeared to him, and has been appearing to him ever since. At the age of 14, Hinn moved to Canada with his parents. While attending high school there, he says he had visions of himself preaching before huge crowds. He also claims that God healed him of a stuttering problem so that he could become a preacher.

Yet in spite of the visions and God's appearing to him for several years, Hinn marks the year of his being born again as 1972 when he was about 20 years old. It was at a Kathryn Kuhlman service the following year that he says he had a "profound spiritual experience."

Hinn readily admits that much of the misunderstanding that has arisen from his teachings is the result of his lack of formal Bible training. In fact, almost immediately after his having been "born again," Hinn says, "The Lord launched me into ministry almost overnight."

"Although Hinn states that his ministry throughout the 1970s was shaped by the writings of men like D.L. Moody and R.A. Torrey, he was a strong proponent of "revelation knowledge" -- new truths revealed to him by God directly -- that were not contained within Scripture. Only recently has he stated that he will no longer claim revelation knowledge as the authority for his teachings. [see the end of this report of Hinn once again claiming revelation knowledge]."

=============

Sounds vaguely familiar....

For those who missed the similarities I saw, they are, in order...

A) a claim to have been marked out for God at a young age.

B) a claim of a special vision for God- which completely failed to transform his life and ministry

C) lack of formal Bible training, but God supposedly selected HIM

D) a claim to have received direct revelation not contained in Scripture

letusreason.org/wf21.htm

http://www.letusreason.org/wf21.htm

Here's an article on the Copeland's using Stiles' "breathing in" technique

"Five Steps in Action form

1.Ask without fear, knowing that God said you would receive His Holy Spirit.

2.Speak no more English.

3.Come unto Jesus. Open your mouth wide and drink in the Holy Spirit, breathing in as deeply as possible. You are to know that at this moment you receive the Holy Spirit by faith. As you breathe in, you are being filled with the Spirit. "

(this is an occult technique in which the prana energy fills the air, nowhere does Scripture tell one to do this to receive the Holy Spirit ,who already lives inside all the believers. While I believe in a continual filling as the Scripture teaches, this is not what they are describing.1 Cor.12:13 "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body-- whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free-- and have all been made to drink into one Spirit." What Spirit than are they receiving if they breathe him in.)

[it needs to further be pointed out that this also is found in Oneness Pentecostalism. In J.E.Stiles booklet " Why receive the Holy Spirit and how to receive him" on p.21 states "Now as you open your mouth, and breath in, don't pray, don't talk don't say a single word, just breathe in deeply... If you will sit quietly for a time...just breathing in the breath of God, you certainly will feel a moving of the Spirit.. Just lift your voice and speak the sounds that seem easy to make,...After you have spoken for considerable time, stop and breathe deeply again and you will get a a fresh anointing.]

4."Raise your voice. Use your lips, tongue, and voice to speak out the praise in an unknown language as the Spirit gives you the utterance.

[Recently at John Hagee's Church Kenneth Copeland spoke explaining how his wife got filled with the Spirit "And the church Gloria came from, dear God. She was raised in a little church out in the country, they didn’t have a pastor half the time. Didn’t believe anything. She’d been saved and filled with the Holy Ghost 3 months before she ever heard the word new birth. She did not know what it was! "(Aug 18,1999 Hagess program on TBN) How is this possible in light of her booklet instructing others to be filled a certain way by asking specifically and breathing the Spirit it in. This shows these people are confused.

5.Allow the rivers of living water to flow from you with the greatest of freedom. You are magnifying God-extolling (praising enthusiastically) the Father God who is Love and offering up the praise of thanksgiving unto Him.

'Now that you have received the Holy Spirit, rely on the Word that Jesus spoke, "He shall remain with you forever."

(note: He will remain with you forever long before you did all this, if you received Christ the way the Bible teaches.

She goes on to say Jesus said the holy Spirit would be given to teach you, not just some things, but ALL the truth."

===============

I'm dubious about the leap they make about "prana energy."

I think Stiles' error was more about garbling his explanation rather than streamlining it.

(Eventually, vpw managed to streamline it from this version here.)

One irony with un-plagiarized material is that often someone doesn't try to

improve on the 1.0 version of an explanation, which means it could be explained better,

and the current form can lead to misunderstandings.

However, I do think this all shows Kenyon AND Stiles were both ripped off by more than just vpw.

I just found myself listening to other ministers who I thought would have nothing to do with twi doctrines. Then I find out they learned from some of the same Wierwille did. My understanding is that vpw's Law of Believing is just a part of this New Age and Word-Faith movements.

I've come to much the same conclusions.

Most of these people ripped off Kenyon's doctrines, and formed the "Word-Faith" movement,

usually while pretending Kenyon never existed.

That conclusion's pretty common around here, BTW, or at least not UNcommon.

"A what?"

"Certainly you know what a 'headache' is, Doctor."

"Of course. But I don't often encounter one."

I think true Christianity is about the dynamic relationship with our Lord and the Bible as merely a means to that end [developing that relationship with Him]. In my opinion, VPW’s work focused more on his pet Bible doctrines than on developing a relationship with the Lord. Between that and the dispensational cold-shoulder he gave the gospels – there was little that encouraged followers to live the love that Jesus invites us to experience. The epistles are great – one of my favorite books is Romans. But nothing gets my mind tracking with my Lord’s idea of love than reading the gospels. Sure – Christian living starts out at an intellectual level – but at some point it graduates, deepens as our hearts engage the truth personally – which is to say we engage our Lord personally.

I think some leaders (vpw was one) are less than keen about encouraging a relationship with the Lord

Jesus Christ-

because that takes away from their own unstated goal to be lord INSTEAD.

Heck, my own reluctance to do so might have a lot to do with my own thoughts about being "lord".....

Like who cares dude!

[Those of us who mind being lied to and deceived care quite a bit.]

Dr Weriwille stated many many times that he learned from these GREAT MEN (Living Victoriously 82) etc etc.

["many many times" is a gross exagerration.

What he DID say many many times was how he dedicated his life to God and His Word,

and how God promised to teach him "like it hadn't been known since the First Century"

and how other Christians were ignorant and inferior.

A few side-comments that he learned some things from some guys falls far, far short

of giving DUE CREDIT, as in "this subject was taught by Professor Righteous, but we're

going beyond what he taught" or the like.

I noticed you didn't quote the page, just cited it. Are we supposed to believe there's

something relevant without a quote?]

Whats the big deal anyway with plagerizing.

Plagiarizing is LYING.

Plagiarizing is BREAKING THE LAW.

Plagiarizing is DECEIVING.

Plagiarizing is PUFFING ONESELF UP.

That's why everyone EXCEPT VPW DEFENDERS care when someone plagiarizes.]

Dr. never took credit for certain materials expounded. Dr. Weriwlle alway gave these guys their just due. Where's the facts.

[The facts are that vpw USUALLY took credit.

Check the introductions for the Orange and White Books.

I can repost them again if you like.

No mention of the works of others-even though both books were ENTIRELY

the works of others.

In the Orange Book, vpw says he threw away all his books other than the Bible.

That's the OPPOSITE of giving credit where credit is due.

In the White Book, early editions admitted there was an anonymous Christian who

put it together- and later editions say that VPW put it together.

That's the OPPOSITE of giving credit where credit is due.

I can repost them again if you like.

The FACTS are that vpw took entire books from others, jumbled the words,

subjects, or chapters around, or mixed in entire books from others,

and put his name on them, without crediting the original writers.

Like "Are the Dead Alive Now?" That's 2 of Bullinger's books put together.

ADAN mentions them not at all.

That's NOT giving just due.

And THAT'S a fact.

We can keep going...]

the man tried to bring about certain truths and keys to spiritual psye, but the man just got caught up in bs .

[He was caught up in bs because he was the one originating it. To a degree, he believed his own press.

And he was the one "writing the press releases."]

Dr. always gave Kenyon his just due unlike others.

[Kenyon ALSO was quoted without citation- in one case in the same chapter

where he was cited properly!

And a minute ago you claimed he "always gave these guys their just due",

now you're saying that giving his just due to Kenyon was "unlike others"....]

So just chill on the Dr. Weriwlle thing please

[i was chilled until you tried to rewrite history again. I find it tiresome, offensive,

and grossly deceptive.]

he was a brillant man

[He was brilliant in marketing and selling a product.

When it came to understanding the subjects he passed on, often he made avoidable mistakes

due to a LACK OF UNDERSTANDING THEM- which is how he ended up contradicting

himself from time to time.]

Craig I can say yeah he was nutless and a juggernutt coward to boot he took millions and was ghost ,gone ,ran, outa here etc...

[He was made twofold the child of hell his teacher was.]

but Dr. Weriwille did stood his ground and tried to bring knowledge to help people .. I am Captain.

[He was primarily about helping HIMSELF.

What is this "standing ground" business about?

Buying into his own version of events-that all Christians EXCEPT HIM were trying to eradicate

God's message or something?

Many people got useful knowledge. However, he never minded

passing along bs that served his purpose.

That's why he made a 180 on the tithe once it was coming to him,

and so on...]

Bolshevik I see you point about doctrines and facts I am just amazed at people's hatred and malice at this site towards individuals who come here to try to get answers.

No, you were trying to push an agenda and a point-of-view,

including "facts" that have been disproven already here-but you haven't taken the time to learn that.

And this "malice and hatred" thing is an exaggeration. What I am is bored more than anything.

And any negative emotion is not towards a poster- just towards his or her lies and deceptive doctrine.

"Try to get answers?"

No, you would have read enough to get some learning by now.

"Try to invent answers" would be more like it.

Sounds like the Original Series.

Is this "Who Mourns for Adonais?"

Kurt Russell

Big Trouble in Little China

Kim Cattrall

I always found twi's definition to be soulless and convey no understanding, even without

"in the household" added.

The definition I used worked with what I found in the Bible.

Agape is the Love of God, or the Love from God, either demonstrated by God Himself

or someone else as made available by God.

That's how I called it.

"Agape is the Love of God, or the Love from God."

I started right after vpw left also.

I left right after lcm demanded his oath of loyalty.

I knew there were problems, but I grossly underestimated them, and figured that private

conversations among the top echelon (Regional Directors, Limb Coordinators, etc)

would be enough to fix lcm. (I missed the "fog" entirely during the fog years.)

Right after I actually said that to someone,

lcm sent out a letter.

It said, in effect, "We're firing all the staff in your state because they've turned

from serving God to serving their own lusts."

Now, I may not have been the sharpest tool in the shed, but I could vouch for people

I'd spent a lot of time with, and seen when the masks come off,

and I'd seen some of the other people on the list, and at least one had achieved the

status of a local legend. I knew THEY weren't anything like the letter said,

and most of the people I had heard in leadership positions and respected were all

placed in the same category.

I found it difficult to accept that they were SECRETLY evil, only on the word of a man

who didn't interact with them regularly, and was having trouble tracking properly.

So, I went off to ROA '89, after a lot of people walked. 1/5 the attendance of ROA '88

were there. Most of the people who'd made THAT one rock were not at ROA '89.

Many of those who WERE at ROA '89 were making their goodbyes- at least among

those I'd met and interacted with. Many were like myself- there to look at things

for myself so I could form an informed opinion.

(And attempt to buy out the bookstore, foolishly ignorant of how much of its

contents were available commercially.)

By the end of the week, it was obvious that A) most of the talent had either walked

or been fired

B) the thought police were monitoring conversations- and one jumped into a

conversation and confirmed that minutes after I claimed that the upcoming conversation

would be monitored- inadvertently confirming my claims to a total stranger who now

realized things were worse than he's imagined

C) events were orchestrated to SIMULATE the things I valued, while missing the mark

of SUBSTANCE. The only exception was the Afternoon (nee Teen) Stage-

which, naturally, lcm ended soon after, eliminating the last substance the ROAs had left.

In short, just going from lcm's statements and direct observation at the ROA,

I was able to prove to my own satisfaction that the situation on-grounds was

wrong and unable to be fixed.

That's independent of the positive examples I'd seen from the people who were

canned because they wouldn't swear allegiance to lcm.

And when I scrutinized THEM in detail, I wasn't able to find problems like I could

find with lcm- and I looked VERY HARD.

Were they without problems? No- but they were a LOT harder to find, and I was

unable to find them when I was looking.

Mind you, if I found THEM just as damaged, I would have walked away from ALL

of them and seen what other Christians had to offer.

(A few years earlier than I did, I mean.)

The availability of what I perceived to be competent Christians at my local area

made it a lot easier for me to leave.

Basically, almost the entire structure of "the ministry" in my area was still intact-

just not working for lcm anymore.

The problem isn't that there are things in life that could be said to be black and white. It is when black and white is the only way we can view the world. Take our little discussion above about the word "fear".

The black and white thinking here is extremely apparent when Greek words must be found , extrapolations made and explanations made that loop backwards onto themselves all in an attempt to make the original example be true, Since for it to be be false would mean that VPW was wrong. And VPW being wrong would not fit into the black and white thinking of VPW and PFAL are right.

What started me down this particular foxhole is for some weird reason I recalled the other day a sns with lcm spending most of it bragging about how good he was at inductive reasoning. It stuck in my mind and I looked up what it was. A few days later it began to dawn on me different things that were inductive reasoning and false conclusions. The more I looked, the more I found….then things began to fall into place. I began to see how twi takes a sharp left turn off the path, in the sense of the mechanics of their thought processes. Combine that with a massive ego and someone who is willing to take a lot of license with the Bible, no wonder…!!!

You know what? They could have gotten away with all the error and had a successful ministry if it weren’t for the fact that the heart of it was so rotten….but you combine rotten heart plus doctrinal/practical error and what a mess!

I'm proud to have made this link work....

Kareem Abdul Jabbar

Enter the Dragon

Chuck Norris

If I could think of anything non- Bruce Lee flick that Bruce Lee starred in,

I would have linked to him instead...

Whoa back up ... I was certain I was taught it is the devil (or the adversary) who is the author of death, not a child's mother. As I recall VPW said in PFAL it was the FEAR in the heart and the life of that mother (it was not the mother herself) that killed that child. I don't see how you can make the claim that PFAL taught the mother herself killed her child with her fear. I believe what was taught in PFAL (quite accurately) was it was the fear that the mother had which contributed to the death of her child.

Check your own sentences- you went from

"It was the FEAR-in the HEART-of that mother- that killed her child"

to "the fear the mother had which CONTRIBUTED to the death of her child".

Perhaps you did that unconsciously, but don't try to shift the blame like that.

vpw said the sole cause of the child's death was the fear of his mother.

Therefore, he said the mother killed the child, and the murder weapon was her fear.

"It wasn't HER, it was her FEAR."

Yeah, and it wasn't the crazy man, but the bullets from his gun that killed those kids in Virginia Tech,

and bombs don't kill people- but the EXPLOSIONS do.

If you can't see how silly it is to try to say vpw didn't say she killed her child via her fear,

you're in the extreme minority. Lots of us got that the FIRST time thru pfal, and there's been posters who

posted about mothers who became fearful of damaging their own children via their thoughts as a direct

result of sitting thru Session 1.

And if you still believe the LAW of Believing kills people and deflects crashes like in Session 1,

that is NOT my fault.

"Medical science in the field called psychosomatic medicine indicates that at least seventy to eighty percent of all diseases are rooted in the spiritual realm. The bible clearly indicates that ]all material manifestation is the result of our spiritual attitude."

And he was wrong TWICE. Medicine shows that having a positive attitude contributes to good health,

in that being depressed can weaken the responses of the immune system.

No COMPETENT medical source has ever claimed that even 70% of health, let alone

diseases, are rooted in anything psychosomatic, let alone "SPIRITUAL."

(How many medical sources USE the word "spiritual", for that matter?)

And the Bible does NOT indicate that MOST material manifestation is the result of our spiritual attitude,

let alone ALL.

If that was really true, all the most ardent vpw worshippers would have hit the Powerball lottery or

cleaned up at Las Vegas at Slots by now. Your presumed spiritual attitude would have manifested bags

of material wealth for you.

What the Bible ACTUALLY says is that the rain falls on the just and the unjust.

What vpw did was blame anyone who suffered for being in the position of suffering, since they were

supposedly the ones who could determine their circumstances.

Do mother's fear for their children's safety? Of course many do. Do they still see their children home safely? Many do. The question that needs to be asked I believe would be, is that fear the same thing or the same result of their spiritual attitude - as VPW explains in CSBP? Obviously it can't be the same fear, as many children do apparently make it home safely. A mother's fear for her child's safety may not have anything to do with her overall spiritual attitude, but rather fear out of concern. It is quite clear to me the example VPW cited in PFAL was not an example of a mother who was fearing out of concern for her child's safety, but rather a mother whose overall spiritual attitude was that of fear itself - and that is something entirely different.

vpw couldn't possibly have been blowing smoke up our keisters, so there must

be some way to completely reinterpret what he said, adding special conditionals

that completely redirect from his emphatic

"GOD WOULD HAVE TO CHANGE THE LAWS OF THE UNIVERSE"

to keep you from suffering consequences you fear.

If your conscience is fine with that, that's your business.

[] Fear is also one of the reasons why many people in TWI tithed.

I would agree, but the yelling is tacky.

lcm in particular was famous for making claims to the effect that God wouldn't do anything for you

if you didn't tithe. (Specifically, he talked about God spitting.)