HCW

Great post Shrifra. ...because the TWI lingo is one of the greatest ways they keep hold of people. I still have the Bible I used in TWI, but I use a different one on a daily basis. I think that after one is free, looking back at the old Bible and the notes, etc. confirms just how controlled you were. Using a different translation helps SOO much in scraping TWI lingo from one's life. I think that one of the last steps in becoming really free is to know in detail how one was controlled and what it was that made me personally suceptable. Fool me once - shame on you - - fool me twice... its MY fault. I dropped EVERYTHING from my life that had anything to do w/TWI for several years I even limited time spent w/very good friends from TWI. Even friends who also left TWI, my friendship w/them was a direct tie between me & TWI. Even when I did see friends it was NEVER at a Bible study meeting. I stripped TWI from those relationships too. If I couldn't hang w/them around non-TWI stuff, I'd not hang w/them at all. I even stopped going to church, reading & studying my Bible all together. I figured that God was either real, or He isn't, IF HE did, in fact, live in me, then he WOULD live in me and that He would guide my steps. There are SOOO many psychological triggers in all of that TWI stuff. I used to think that TWI was a good thing gone bad. No more, now I see it as a bad thing that had some good people associated w/it. All of the good was what good people brought TO TWI, not something that emanated FROM w/in TWI. "A good tree yields good fruit, a bad tree yields bad fruit." "By their fruit, you shall know them." The "Thank you father..." stuff is a big part of the lingo - the control. If one still prays that way, you choose to align yourself w/TWI and are still under their control in that respect."Normal & genuine" is the goal, feels great to be "normal" doesn't it. The TWI mindset - at best - is passive aggressive. At worst - - well, we've seen the worst, right? None of us "are" TWI or came from TWI, even those of us who were born into it. I have a daughter (now 20yrs old) who was born into TWI. She is as normal, as one can be, even though she grew up in NK and went through school, k-12 @ NK school. She maintained(s) relationships w/her family (non wafers), as I do. No one in their right mind talks and acts the way that TWI people do. Yes, I AM saying that people who act as wafers are out of their minds. Truthfully, looking back, I was out of my mind back then, even though I thought I wasn't and functioned normally and excelled in many areas of my life. I was insane in every area that I let them control me. I worked really hard while in TWI not to use a lot of the jargon, but still used some - - IT is crazy. Were it a normal part of Godly Christianity, why is it that basically NOBODY else in the Christian world uses it? Hmmmm....... Even if you don't know or can't remember... you know what makes you happy NOW. DO some of it.Just within the last year or so, I've totally let go of the "God first, others second, myself third" concept that TWI pushes. Doing some non-TWI influenced Bible study, I discovered that a BIG part of tithing is a tithe to YOURSELF!!! True Christian service REQUIRES that the one serving others serve himself enough so that he has enough available to give to others. "...but rather let him labor, doing good profitable work so that he has enough to give to others...." is what Romans 5:28 is really saying. Jesus said that they way we treat people is how we serve him. Treating YOURSELF right is the FIRST responsibility we have in treating "PEOPLE." We ARE people, friends. Go ahead, treat yourself to a movie & let the untility co. wait a couple of weeks to get the rest of "their" money. I went through a period where my $$$ was REALLY tight. I stopped suffering by giving companies "all" my money, gave them SOME, & gave me some. The little things I gave myself w/the SOME $$$ make me a much happier guy. Then I realized that I was giving them $$$ "of necessity." I've become a "cheerful giver" in paying my bills, use some of the tithe I pay to myself & "have some to give to him that has needs" (which makes me feel GREAT, cause I get a real kick out of helping people). AND. Blessings have been dropping out of the sky. Hmmm..... maybe I'm becoming an actually Godly fellow??? Eventually, as time went on I found that having a desire to know God was a part of ME. I had a growing desire to study the Bible and now do it as I feel like doing it and no longer feel GUILTY if a day or two or more goes by and I don't open the book. He loves me anyway. Don't see a therapist regularly anymore (maybe I should :blink: ) but I did. AND I've been mentored through a program we have @ the church I attend now, and have done other similar stuff. Helps. Even if you don't necessarily do the full fledged, ( I was a teenage cultist, counseling thing) thing, talking with someone who NEVER had ANYTHING to do w/TWI is SO helpful. They get a "how could you ever have thought like that" look on their face when you talk about some things that helps shock a person back to reality. Ain't no shame in seein' a therapist. We should all do it for a while at least. Shifra, your post is a good "Six step program" to answer the how do I get free from TWI, the cult thing. Just wanted to add a "this is what it did for me" perspective. Thanks.

I get your points Raf. I was actually speaking more to a universal "you" than you specifically. I should get better at using a more unspecific term when I'm being unspecific. I couldn't agree more with that Raf. And. I think it was Garth who made a point to the effect that seeing as TWI called themselves a "Biblical Research, Teaching and Fellowship ministry" they should have acted accordingly. It would have done nothing but add credibility to the ministry for Vp to include anyone who added anything to the research of a given publication. I mentioned earlier that my daughter told me that the research project she's working on as a summer intern @ John Hopkins is going to include her in the list of authors when the thing is published in whatever medical journal. Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems to me that the fact that Vp wrote "checks with his mouth that he and TWI couldn't cash" concerning how great they were that really hack people off on this subject. I mean; if he had never said things like "God taught me..." and said stuff like "we should be better than the world..." people might not be so mad about him lifting stuff. Is that right? Its not like people would have thought any less of him for giving credit where credit was due. My points on authorship is that when it comes to companies and employees, like it or not, the employee's work belongs to the company and the company is under no legal obligation to credit the author. And, when a copyrighted work, such as a book contains things that are not the work of the author of the book the book still is legally the copyright protected work of the author. For the record. I didn't mention legalities to in any way defend, or minimalize the morality issue of Vp lifting other's work. My point was that TWI went ti great lengths to cover Vp & itself legally regardless of how immoral they may have acted in a given situation.

This quote, at least for me, sums the issue up pretty well for me. Its pretty much the approach I take personally. At this point in my life its kinda irrelevant to me where VP got the stuff in his books/teachings, etc. Reason being that I've classified him in my mind as an extremely driven, egotistical dude whose primary function in life was to be "king." He was an excellent speaker, a world class charismatic presenter with a sparkling personality (when he wanted) who had an "it factor" that drew people to him and made it "easy" to trust him. My basic opinion of him is that he's the SAME as 99.8 % of ALL of the other guys who start their own church or ministry. IMO they do it because they want to be the king. The Bible confirms this when you look, historically at the people who were what we call Bible heros. Most of them fell. VP fell too. Seeing as he's about the same as any other guy who failed in ministry, to me, he's no longer something special. Amen sister. This is how I think of VP. When I think of him I focus on whatever good I was able to glean from my experience w/him personally and his ministry. The problem that I have w/ VP lifting other people's stuff is not so much the betrayal factor; his lying to us, presenting himself to me something he wasn't, etc. To me - the plagurism is less important than the CRAZY conclusions came up with after compiling all of his "research." There were some who respected VP for some of his books back in the day. Yes, the IDEA of him plagurizing was not forefront then. Fast-forwarding to today, it seems that the stuff he was respected for was pretty much the stuff he stole from others who were actual scholars. Dang it. I remember sitting through hours of the CF&S class AFTER having anticipated taking it, getting the $$$ together, paying for it, then its finally here. Yay! Then I was APPALLED by the look of his face and the tone of his voice when he "taught" us slang terms for male & female private parts! I wanted to SLAP his face when he told us Mrs. VPW's preference in the position and method he used having SEX!!!!???? AND. Then, FINALLY, the moment came when he in his very VPW way exclaimed that THE original sin - - THE thing that Eve did in the Garden of Eden - the thing that the serpent beguiled her to do - the thing she convinced Adam to do.... (drumroll....) was... MASTURBATE!!!! I was like, WHAT? You put me through all of that absolute crap to tell me, we, the whole human race were separated from God because Adam pulled his pud!????!?!!!!????? First of all there's not a man alive that anyone would have to coerce to do that. SO. When I think of things to be mad at VP about, his lifting other people's work is not the highest thing on my personal list. Its not that I don't care about it, I do. Its just that it doesn't make a whole lot of difference to me at this point. In the old days, everyone who knew Vp knew he had a wild side and that he was prone to crazy ideas. He even said that the reason they originally voted three trustees was to have Ermal & Harry have equal votes to his so they could keep him from doing crazy stuff. There was always a part of Vp that you just sorta dismissed, even back then; so its easy for me now. To be involved w/TWI there was always "the whole prove all things, hold fast to the good" thing concerning Vp. Especially after you'd been reamed by him a time or two, you had to dismiss part of him. Not much has changed concerning him for me, I respect the parts of him I respect & have let go of other things.

Yup, Some of the books I mentioned were class materials, not all of VPW's works were. Some of his stuff was collaborative. Basically I was commenting on an earlier post that said that what VPW did on the plagurizing issue in general were criminal. When you get into crime in this matter you're talking copyright. Sure. Its immoral and wrong to take somebody else's work and say its yours. What I was commenting on is how VPW went about doing it. Basically TWI did then, and does NOW and always will skate "just this side" of the legal line in every single thing they do as a corporation. They do this to limit the legal recourse of the followers of The Way. On top of it they convince followers that GOD is on THEIR side. They do TONS of immoral stuff. When I say I don't care about the plagurism thing I"m thinking in the context of immoral things they do/did, VPW's plagurism is the among the smallest, most insignificant BY COMPARISON with other stuff they do. They do & say things that are absurd. They hire lawyers who work there because they couldn't hold their own in a "real" law firm. The lawyers who, while they should be going through stuff with a fine tooth comb - miss stuff that a "better" attorney wouldn't. Anyone who has spent any time in a courtroom in litigation knows that attorney's present absurd arguments every day. Again, I'm not speaking in support of what went on. I'm only recounting what I remember of what went on when I was there (I wasn't there after 1988 so I can't speak to that very much). No Raf. I wasn't on in the research Dept. I wasn't in editorial. I worked closely w/ editorial as we were part of the process & therefore knew how the process worked & we knew in general "how we did things." Personally I never liked it, nor do I like it now how companies cry out "well it's LEGAL" when they do things people don't like. People generally don't like it when they get used. We were used on staff @ HQ.

Excuse!!???Who ever said I was making excuses? That was a simple statement of fact. We were (the editorial dept) given a directive to write to 8th grade reading level. I didn't say I liked or agreed with it, that was what we were TOLD to do by our bosses on the job. Who said I was trying to defend VPW? I don't care what "camp" you're in Garth. I'm not in ANY camp I'm not in any camp. Frankly my dear, I really don't give a da## whether VPW plagurized or not. I never said VPW never plagurized. I actually said repeatedly that he lifted ideas that weren't his. I said he was FULLY aware that he was lifting other people's work and COMPLIED other people's work into "his" work. What I said and the point I was making is that VPW went to great lengths to cover his butt legally. I'm constantly amazed at the knee jerk reaction so many folks here at the cafe have to anyone who doesn't just slam VPW along the "party line." If you don't slam VP you're supporting him. I'm not supporting him by recounting my personal experience. Again Garth. I wasn't making an argument. Its obvious that you feel very strongly about what VPW did with his works. I didn't say how I feel about what he did. I just pointed out WHAT he did, when he did it.I'll say now, I really don't care a whole lot about it. I think I'm on record here at the cafe about how I feel about VPW being a pretty angry, egotistical and two-faced (minimally), deceitful guy. I also don't feel it prerequisite to skewer VP every time I speak about things he did. I believe that after a while skewering people reflects more negatively on the "skewer-ER" than it illucidates the "skewer-EE." Stop putting words in my mouth then flaming me for what YOU think I said Garth. OK - - CHIEF?? PS. My name's not CHIEF. Gee wiz... can't you guys see by now that that "God told me he would teach me His Word as it hadn't been taught for centuries, if I would teach it to others..." was nothing more than a tag line?! It was a hook! A great one at that! It was very successful in hooking pretty much every one of us who took PFAL. That line is precisely the SAME thing as McDonald's, "I'm Lovin' it!" - A TAG LINE designed soley to illict an emotional response in order to draw people - a certain TYPE of people into their stores and by their product line. I am NOT LOVING McDonald's food. Are YOU? The FORD Motor Corporation does NOT have "a better idea." I can NOT put on a pair of Air Jordans and "Just DO It" and dunk like Michael Jordan. Try as I might I CAN'T "be Like Mike." The Maytag repairman does NOT sit around his shop all day bored because Maytag equipment "never" breaks down. Absolutely NONE of those are universally and factually TRUE statements and NONE OF US care about it! We either buy their product or we don't and then forget about it. VPW's greatest talent was that he was an excellent pitch-man. As good at it as Bill Cosby on his best day. We're mad at him because he snookered us! Admit it. Hate him for that if you choose, but don't hate me (or anyone else) because I don't waste my energy hating him like you do. This is percisely how creativity is handled in literally EVERY corporation in the US. When a company hires any creative, and employs him in his field of expertise when that person creates ANYTHING the copyrights belong to the corporation, not the individual. You may not like it but when Walter did his research it belonged to TWI and VPW was the "named principal" of the corporation and therefore had the discretion to take any and all works of the employees, publish them as he saw fit and put his name on it if he chose to do so. Of course the moral, ethical and RIGHT thing to do would be to credit ALL contributors to the work in the work itself. eg: my daughter is currently doing a research fellowship as an intern at John Hopkins Medical School, the #2 medical research program in the country (proud Poppa!). She told me that the fact that she will write some of the findings of the experiments she conducts this summer, she will be listed as one of the authors of the work when its published in whatever medical journal it goes into. Catch my drift? John Hopkins = top of the food chain - - the BEST. TWI = the opposite. By their fruit you SHALL know them.

Maybe expected, by academia, but we editied TWI pubs to a Jr High reading level and extensive footnotes, etc., are generally a higher reading level than we wrote to. And. Legally. You cannot copyright an idea. The works the lifted material came from certainly qualify as materials that were copyright works. However: "Copyright law covers only the form or manner in which ideas or information have been manifested, the "form of material expression". It is not designed or intended to cover the actual idea, concepts, facts, styles, or techniques which may be embodied in or represented by the copyright work." And. Copyright legal issues come into play when a person would reasonable determine that the work in question closely resembles the "original" and its proven that the questionable work was created after the other. The LEGAL issue is not the copying of the copyrighted work but the damage the copier inflicts on the original author by PROFITING from the USE of the copy. Besides. There is a "Fair Use" provision under copyright law that allows that any copyrighted work can be used for educational purposes. Plus. The "form of material expression" covers the book itself, not necessarily an idea contained in the book. For example: Disney's Mickey mouse itself is the copyrighted work, not the IDEA of a cartoon mouse. It is not plagurism or a legally enforcible violation of copyright when another creates a cartoon mouse who has a mouse girlfriend and a goofy dog friend and has another friend who is a jealous, irritating duck. Even if the second set of cartoon friends goes on a remarkably similar set of adventures as does Micky, Minnie, Goofy & Donald. IF the new group of cartoon friends were named, Michael, Mina, Silly & Donnie, and they looked similar and appeared in cartoon short films and the second artist PROFITED financially enough so as to reach felony levels; the original artist, Walt Disney, and ONLY the original creator of the work would have experienced compensatory damages specific to the monitary amounts garnered by the USE of the violating works. The violating artist would face the appropriate legal penalties for violating the copy rights of the original author. ONLY if the original author, himself, brought action against the copier. Further copyrights are for a limited time and after said period has passed ALL copyrighted work goes into public domain. In short. ALL of the stuff you guys point out that VPW lifted were ideas contained in books. The books themselves were copyright protected the instant the author declared them finished, regardless of whether they were registered or had a copyright notice printed in them. It is not illegal to take an idea from another book and include it in your own book. It would be illegal if you copied the whole book, or if you copied the design of the book, or its cover, etc. One could make a case if one reworded the entire basic content of a book and published it as your own work. Owning copyrighted material and using it are two totally separate legal issues. The fact that VPW included the ideas of other artists and compiled them together in separate works under separate cover, & title, etc., does, in fact make PFAL (and other stuff) his original, copyrighted work. We question the ethics of lifting somebody else's ideas and publishing them as if they were your own. However, it could be argued (although not by me in this post) that when one directly quotes the original author, that act is in itself a tribute to the original. Hasn't it been said that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery? I've said this before & I'll say it again. VPW didn't edit his books. He had a specific editor who was not on staff @ HQ, and every word TWI published was reviewed and had to pass stringent legal scrutiny before it was published. We, In TWI's publications dept. did not exclusively handle the content of VP's earlier books and we have no idea what permissions legal did or didn't get. Only we knew that the manuscripts came back from the legal dept. stamped, "ready for print." PLUS. With all of the intense scrutiny TWI underwent in the 70's & early 80's, I don't remember hearing ONE word about plagurism. That would have been an EASY target but it was just a non-issue. And. TWI is non-profit. Therefore it was impossible for any damage from any copyright violation, if there were any AND, VPW's books were published as educational materials. We hate VP for the damage he did & inspired to the ministry and the people he hurt. Fine. Fact remains that his books were covered from legal violations. And, were it not for his incessant speaking of the people he learned stuff from, how would anyone have ever read the "source materials" to find the "plagurism?" This whole issue sounds like "piling on" to me. Just because he may have been a jerk overall one cannot criminalize EVERYTHING he did. In the music industry, you change one note in a riff & its not a violation. When an artist uses another's work we call it sampling. I know the problem pointed out with VPW is "permissions" and the lack of citing his sources, and his apparent saying that the "lifted" ideas were his. How many published books in the category of spiritual self-help contain 100% original ideas? The facts remain, though, that the compilation of the material in his books was, in fact, his idea and the books are, in fact, HIS work. The legal truth is that some of his legally authored works CONTAIN specific ideas that were he did not originate. The wording and phraseology of said ideas was not his either. He broke no law publishing those books. I don't like a LOT of what was VPW. I'm not blind, just pointing out some legalities I'm familiar with from being an artist AND having worked in the publications dept., @ TWI where we were conscious of copyright infringement, ad nauseum. Every ad, every photo, every word of every publication was scrutinized by legal. They had ULTIMATE power to hold up publication deadlines regardless of what VPW said or wanted. They actually changed wording in VP's books, the PFAL class, etc. to avoid copyright issues. Why do you think there were different editions of the books? In fact, it MAY have been the legal dept that made the lifted material match the original so closely. I wasn't a part of that process only saw the results of it. I remember some talk about that stuff but not a whole lot of details. I do remember though, that we went through the whole "Sing Along the Way" songbook and had to attempt to contact the author of every song in the book or have legal determine whether it was public domain or not. We got permissions from some, refused to pay exhorbitant fees for others & redid the songbook accordingly. I redesigned the cover to make it different from the original & a mandate went out to destroy the old blue song books. VPW was well aware of this whole issue & took steps to be sure that his books were legal.

What I did was - - I asked. I asked myself, just who in the world AM I? I had found that I had lost (even though I was SURE that I hadn't) parts of myself. Not only to TWI but to different roles that I found myself attempting to live up to. What I found along the way, as many folks have mentioned - its a journey, a process; is that losing yourself is a normal part of life that just about everybody goes through. Psychologists warn of the dangers of living life according to our roles. TWI just exacerbated (and continues to exacerbate) that normal - albeit it negative part of life's process. Millions of people live the insanity of going through life role-playing as opposed to actually living. When I learned that, that fact alone freed me from the vast majority of TWI's BS. What was freeing to me was realizing that influence" from TWI is in reality smoke & mirrors. TWI is, in reality just like the Wizard of OZ.... a BIG ugly loud head projected larger than life onto the "screen" we see, but the actual wizard behind the screen is a little scared wimpy dude - with NO real power over us. What I asked myself was simply EVERYTHING. I questioned everything I do and everything that I think I think - literally everything. It took and is taking some time. I say taking, because life itself is a continual process of growth. To get free from TWI was, and really is NOT a major focus in our quest for freedom from the cult. Reason being is that lauding TWI to the top of "things I need to be free from" actually is succumbing to what they want, which is to influence folk to believe that TWI is the biggest thing in their life. They hide under the auspicies that since they "represent God to you" that the relationship w/ TWI by inference, should be the biggest thing to you... - - NOT !!!! Being truly free is to be free from EVERYTHING that enslaves you. TWI is only ONE thing to be free from - -no matter how deeply "in" a person was - - no matter how "bad" you were - - so what? Its the influence we afflict ourselves with - playing the role that we need to be free from. Actually we don't even need to free ourselves from TWI or anything else. What we need to do is to become committed to whatever we think we want to be. Day by day moment by moment. Become committed to the reality that is you, the way you see yourself, or the way you want to see yourself. That requires, in my opinion a great deal of honesty. Again, the key for me was asking. What do I like to do? What have I always wanted to do with my life? Is this that I'm doing, that? Do I like it? What can I do to change it if I don't? Just ask yourself questions and answer them as you see fit. A huge discovery for me was which things I believe because I believe them and which things I believe(d) because VPW (in context) or or someone else believes them. I had lost parts of myself to my role as husband, father, artist, etc. TWI just exacerbated the losing myself thing. Throughout the process I've held onto SOME of what I learned from VPW and TWI as well as every other teaching influence in my life. After settling on things I believe and things I now know I like, etc. That protects me from other things that might seek to control me like TWI does. Also, I've found great value in the rough experiences I've had, not only in TWI but in every other bad experience in my life. By placing TWI in its proper place, I've learned just how much influence they actually had over me, & how much they try to have in general AND just how much influence I GAVE them. Its been a great journey. At this point I wouldn't trade my TWI experience for a life w/out it because overcoming the negative parts of it have built some good things into me that I'm not sure I'd have learned without it. One should recognize thier roles in life but mot be so bound by them as to do crazy things, JUST because "I'm a (fill in the blank) and that's what we do. Being free from a "role" allows a person to say, for example, "I'm a police officer, but I recognize the fact that although you broke the law by not stopping at a stop sign, I won't give you a ticket under these unique circumstances." We all know how Wayhead is was totally reactionary, group think mindset. Being free of roles allows a person to actually grow and even change how they live at different points. We change to being proactive and realize that we now know, better than most folk, just what living some alternative reality life-style is like. We can now recognize the signs & symptoms and techniques that people use for control and avoid those pitfalls. My input into this subject is don't focus about being reactive in life according to your roles. Don't focus too much on becoming free from TWI.... You will become free from TWI along the way as you just become proactively committed to living as you actually are. Just ASK yourself, in a very detailed manner who you are and live according to your answers. If you don't like yourself change yourself in the specific area to something you DO like. Soon you'll really love yourself! Bottom line is that God is still on the throne. True freedom in life comes from one's relationship w/Him.

A person can, and is certainly free to give your own opinion on any topic you choose. However. To say that "we" as in we ALL spoke baby talk when we spoke in tongues (IF we actually did speak in tongues) when we were involved w/TWI is something one person really has no basis to make such a general statement about. The reality of speaking in tongues is that it is completely between God and the individual - period. Personal experiences in TWI were so varied from area to area and in era to era. Nobody can actually make a factual statement regarding the general experience people had, especially when it comes to something like speaking in tongues. That, is my opinion on the matter. I'm not following the logic here, having a hard time wading through the religious speak to get to something real that makes sense.

Thanks for the insight another spot. You know guys, back in the '70's there were almost NO WC to do any artwork for TWI events. There were basically no WC on staff @ HQ even. Its amazing to me how deep the BS went & how different it was from when I worked @ HQ. I wasn't WC when I came on staff @ HQ & I designed & illustrated The Way Mag for publication to the whole dang ministry! Our Heart Mag was a ONE color publication & that color was - - god forbid, BLACK! We transitioned (starting in 1980) the print dept @ HQ from a single color duplication operation to a full color in-house full service printing plant and were one of the top 100 corporate in-house printing operations in the country by the early '80s. The Way Mag won awards and was used by our printer (a company "in the world") as part of their portfolio to show off their capabilities to gain other business. The improvements made to NK airport to accomodate TWI's Flight Services Dept. made New Kknoxville's airport the top rural airport in the state of Ohio & one of the best in the country. Ambassador One was the first "Super Condor" conversion in the world and made that class of airplane (with a decades old airframe) a true international turbo-prop jet airplane. Amb 1 could take off from NK Airport and fly non-stop to Europe. That made NK an INTERNATIONAL airport. At one time we WERE "better than the world" in a lot of categories @ HQ. This was before "the great purge" in 1989. Under the guise of "spiritual commitment" Craig got rid of ALL of us who would not bow down and worship him and believe and (to use one of his pet words) "promulgate" his wannabe the great one attitude. Amen sistern...There were far too many people on staff who didn't have the professional prerequisites to get a similar job as they had @ HQ in a "worldly company." ... and they knew it. They hid behind the "I'm more spiritual than you" thing to just get over on their subordinates. LCM was the chiefest of these. He had absolutely NO qualifications to become CEO of a $22mil corporation. Actually VPW didn't either. VP, however, at least had the entreprenurial abilities to run the company. far to many others were just plain ignorant of what they needed to be in the positions they had. Ego took over.

Saying "two ministries" was putting it kindly. There was a LOT of stuff going on - a lot of people with their own agendas. Even when I was on staff, for as much as I was right in the middle of what was going on, in other ways I was COMPLETELY on the outside of some other stuff. Out and even locked out. Agreed on the using your gift stuff & making a difference. BRAVO! Isn't it "ironic" how some of the people who were making the biggest noise in the arts in the ministry were ones who were shall we say, "not as talented" as some on the outside...?

Yeah. it was Vince. ... an LCM of a different color - still an LCM. At that time in the ministry there were a few of the tip top guys who were each, in their own way trying to replicate the success VP had in directing Way Productions. They were all the same in that they were not going about it in the right way. Besides., LCM had his fingers in EVERYthing that had anything to do w/ the ministry on a national level. Even though it was "Vince's idea," it went nowhere w/o LCM's approval. Neither of them were producers. They didn't really understand the concept of executive producer, they were too involved in the creative process. One of the worst things rampant in the ministry during that time was that leaders at pretty much every level of the ministry felt that God would give them revelation concerning things they had no talent in. even worse yet things that were not their business nor actual responsibility to know. VPW actually had a knack for working w/ creative people, LCM and Vince didn't have it.

Yeah. That stuff really flourished when the ministry blew up & changed from a quaint little movement in the cornfield to worldwide corporation. I hated it. It made me sad too. There was so much that was going on that people should have known about. I wanted to do so much more, but we were sooo busy with what we were doing everyday. I guess we thought that TWI would be around forever and that at some point we'd get around to doing all the stuff we wanted to the way we wanted to do it. BUT. It was like there were two ministries happening simultaneously. The one where great stuff was happening and the one where all of the crap was going down. The ministry imploded right around us behind the crap. BTW. I have a copy of the color-music harmony chart. Again, its somewhere in a box in my basement.

COOL. ALL (true) creativity is from God. It is a gift that HE gives along with other gifts He gives other folks. Don't let an anal sphincter like LCM take that away from you. I stayed w/ TWI for so long because I was sooo far under all that creativity stuff. VPW was REALLY into creativity and he had a real affinity w/us creative types. I think, looking back, and after hearing about other people's experiences, that we got his best. TWI was built on Way Productions and the creativity of the artists, musicians, research folk, architects, builders, etc. There were a lot of geniuses involved in every aspect of the ministry. VPW totally encouraged us all, he worked with us & guided the progress of a lot of folks & stayed out of the way while God worked in people to create some really great stuff. LCM tried so much to be like VPW but he has a huge jealous streak, based on the fact that he never had true world class talent in the areas he wanted to be a world class talent in. Where VPW would give a direction to move in & get out of the way, LCM wanted to be hands on so that he could see himself in YOUR work. I did the letterhead design for VPW's letters every year, he would have his secretary get me the rough version of the letter, I would extrapolate the theme from the letter and illustrate it as I saw fit. I'd show my illustration to him in its rough form & he'd OK it. When LCM took over, I was doing the poster for Athletes of the Spirit. Craig changed it THREE times before I finally broke down and did basically what he said I should do. I had done the logo prior to the poster & basically LCM designed it. I was just the hands that did the artwork. He picked the reference shot that I used to do the illustration, HE decided what poses all of the people in the poster would be in HE decided what imagery and design elements the poster would contain. That poster had the same contrived look that lots of stuff we did then did. The result of putting a creative artist in a box that a non-creative creates. It seems LCM only got worse as time went by. Part of his problem is that he was the schiznit in high school when he played football, basically because of his size he got over on the local dudes he played against. When he moved to Division 1A in college at Kansas and ran up against some REAL ballers - - he found out he was a second stringer at best. He became jealous of the guys who played ahead of him & when he became pres. he got his revenge. He made EVERYONE who was better than him in anything bow down under him. He beat the talent out of everyone because he, himself has VERY limited talents. Typical Romans chapter 2 stuff. He imprisioned everyone to serve him. Glad you're free now! If you're writer, there's a rhythm to your soul that you just gotta let it flow. Flow baby flow!

Yeah. Its a real shame that stuff never really got published. One of the most exciting things (to me at least) that we did was this study on color-music harmony. They came up with a color chart (I don't know exactly wher it came from) where the different colors corresponded with music notes on your basic music scale. They had commissioned a series of paintings that they hung in the cafeteria at Emporia that were part of the culmination of the study. The flying swans were composed so that they were actually notes on a sheet of music and the color palette was in the same "key" as the riff that the notes represented. WIth the chart one could actually do a painting in the key of "whatever." The idea was based on the theory that since music is pure emotion that you can hear, one could apply the same emotional principals to visuals and intentionally create a work of visual art that would convey the same visual emotion that a music cord does. It was cool. I was actually going to do an illustration for the Way Magazine utilizing those principles and planned to do an article for the mag that spoke to the study, etc. After we'd gotten some feed back on they "results" from it. I'd done a couple of studies where I painted the same image in different "keys." Never happened. I got fired.

They put TAKIT together on the heels of what you might say was the "golden era" of Way Productions. Way Prod had just done a really successful national tour where that had put together a musical with dancers, singers, etc.. It was really well recieved and I guess they were trying to build on the success from that. Branded had won second place in this Wrangler Country Music Showdown. It was like Star Search meets American Idol for country western bands. Rumor had it that the band that won it was Sawyer Brown. Whomever it was, Branded was second. They had performed at the finals, I think it was at the Grand Ol' Opry & came in second. LCM said, (of course he would...) that Branded had been shafted and the thing was actually fixed and "they" wanted the band that won to win. The winner got a big time music contract, album deal, etc. Branded's participation in it was part of TWI's getting the Word into Culture. At that time in the ministry LCM was fawning all over pretty much every famous believer who was involved in the ministry & making them rock star type of celebrities in TWI. There was also rumors that TWI, itself had a problem with BRANDED getting the record deal because of the money - as in who would get it - who would get rich?? At any rate, that era was during the beginnings of the end. When one would have thought that we could build on the momentum of stuff things just deteriorated and went nowhere. I think it shows where the ministry really was, especially when here we are today when American Idol can make a person a national household name just by puttin' them on TV for a few minutes & having them butcher a song.

I have a copy of their album. Cover & all somewhere in a box in my basement. Its the old-style vinyl disk and I don't have a turntable anymore I also have: "We're on God's Team" by Joyful Noise "There's a Place" by Paul Vergilio and a few others. One of these days I'll get around to getting a turntable & transferring them to some modern media. Not a huge priority.... TAKIT was a pretty good idea, I thought, but they never really went anywhere with it. They were a "superband" made up of some of the best guys from Way Productions. Dave Garabaldi on drums, Skip Mesquite - sax, Dan Moran - Lead Guitar/Vocals, & Dean Ellenwood - Bass gutar/Vocals. All of them actually sang except Dave. They were an exceptionally talented group. But to me (not that I'm any kind of music expert) their music sounded forced and overly contrived, as if they were pushing to hard to "be something" that matched their name. Like, they had this theme song than went with the group's name, which was in itself a play on words; TAKIT. The lyrics were something like: "Come on and TAKE it, Don't have to take it no more, You can really MAKE it, Don't have to fake it no more..." Huh? Never really floated anybody's boat. Their run was sorta like when you've heard that this new blockbuster movie that's coming out is gonna be SOOOOOOOO GREAT! You get your expectations built up sooooo much that whenb you finally see it, its disappointing - - even if it was really great, its sort of a dud, because your expectations were soo high that nothing really could reach it. Plus. The guys in TAKIT had such a great track record with some of the songs they'd written and performed through the years, the stuff they did in TAKIT just didn't measure up. My guess is that they were being pushed by LCM & the whole TAKIT thing to me seemed like when you invite all of the same people to the same place and have another party in hope of recreating the really super special time you had together, "that one great time." Just wasn't the same.

My entire history in TWI was totally about creativity and the whole Word in Fine Arts thing. I worked with Elena Whiteside, David Kraley, John Kish, Brian Heaney, Allison Heaney, Beth Lowder, Lonnell Johnson, Etc. We were at the center of TWI's creative efforts. Specifically in the visual arts & writing and all forms of the arts. I came to work at HQ specifically to be a part of the whole creative thing. It was NEVER Elena's goal to in any way squelch a person's creativity. What she wrote in the word in culture book was more about putting creativity in perspective. Perspective being that only God can create, in the sense of creating something from nothing. Literally being that only God can CREATE the colors that we humans use to MAKE a beautiful work of art that reflects creativity. Therw was a lot of good in the Word in Fine Arts stuff we were doing. In fact, looking back, speaking totally for myself I'd say that it was the time & focus I spent on all of that stuff that kept me from "seeing" a lot of the crap that was going on elsewhere. We artists were a sub-culture within the TWI culture. I spent a LOT of time hangin' out at the Kish's home when I was at HQ. We, all of us in the whole wird in fine arts movement worked really hard on being creative in our areas, from the dancers, to the writers, musicians, architects, sculpters, photographers, graphic artists, painters, woodworkers, etc., etc. VPW actually pushed us towards quality and creativity. Back in the old days he/we/they used to say that a person's work had "heart." A lot of times the work stunk, but people put their heart into it. Origianlly VPW spoke of dreams of the ministry having God inspired professionals at every area in the ministry, specifically the artisans. We'd have meetings where he taught about the "cunning craftsmen" the Old Testament speaks about. The people who God inspired to design, build and do the decor of the temple, the ark of the covenant & stuff like that. He told us that our goal should be to be like them. VP was really into poetry and creative writing. Have you every heard his albums where he read creative writings? "The Mystery Train" "Love Letters" ??? How about Lonnell Johnson's book "Ears Near to the Lips of God" it was poetry, creative writing. TWI never had anything against being creative... until LCM & co. took over. In fact, VP told me personally and privately (in the motorcoach) that I was the artist (not him) and that when it came to the stuff I did, I should tell HIM what to do. All he could do was maybe point me in a direction, but it was God who would work in ME as to HOW to go about doing it because I am the artist. I felt then, still do now, always have and always will believe that I've been gifted from God to be one of those "cunning" creative artisans the Bible speaks of. I leanred about that stuff through TWI and the WIFA movement. NOONE can take that away from me. Except me. I can put it down and walk away from it. However, if I do, it will torment me. Being an artist is like having a fire inside, if you don't deal with it it will deal with you. Like so many other things, the work we did and were doing deteriorated through the '80s as LCM/Rosalie took over. The Word in Fine Arts/Word in Culture thing in TWI wasn't so much a VPW thing. People picked up that ball and we ran with it. I'm saddened to hear that creatives were stifled by TWI. Some of you guys know that I was on staff @ TWI HQ for 8 years. I also spent most of my two in residence years working in Divine Design at all of the other root locations. There was a lot of good work that we did in WIFA that was never completed and/or published widely through the ministry. Mostly because the events of VPW's death & LCM's rise to power & the Athletes of the Spirit thing & Chris Gear's POP thing ripped the ministry to shreds. Our stuff was relegated to the back burner and the people who were specifically doing whatever sorta took whatever with them when we all left TWI. Personally. I wanted to come to TWI HQ to work because I heard VPW say on a SNS tape that TWI had hired this really great airbrush artist to do the America Awakes album cover because we didn't have a believer in the ministry who could do work of top professional quality. I was a junior in high school at the time majoring in commercial art in 1975. I was pretty good. A lot better than the work I'd seen come from HQ on old Way Magazines. I wrote David Craley who was at the time editor of the way mag & asked him about coming to HQ on an internship when I was in art school. He invited me to come to HQ & meet w/ him & show him my portfolio. I didn't do the internship but he promised to consider me for a staff position after I graduated in 1978. In the meantime, I contacted my Limb Leader (we were allowed to call them leaders then) and we created one of the first state coordinator positions for Word in Fine Arts, in Pennsylvania. I did that for a couple of years. What I did was contact "all" of the artisians in the state of PA and coordinate signage, etc. for statelevel ministry events. Local folk would do their own locan events and we would work together to decorate things like Heart Festivals, Limb meetings - stuff like that. I'd act as art director & assign projects, coordinate their delivery, set-up & tear down at the event. We did some pretty nice stuff. After I came to HQ. Part of my job was to coordinate the event photography for ministry level events like ROA and some of the large classes like Living Victoriously. I'd communicate w/ photographers who came in from the field and coordinate shooting assignments to help insure that the entire event would be recorded photographically for the ministry's historical files. We had quality standards in terms of wanting professional photgraphers to shoot the big events and a level of "spirituality" that we felt was acceptable in the photos, things we felt were publishable. The Degas painting critique mentioned earlier spoke of some of the things we deemed "spiritually OK" and not cool. It wasn't like we didn't understand basic and even advanced photographic composition, ldesign, lighting, etc. We did. The deal about the legs of the dancer boxing in a maind object of composition, the dark eyes, etc, negative comments were things that represented some basic "ungodly" stuff. For example: We would never publish images of people in TWI publications where the eyes of the main image was obscured by darkness. It wasn't about a person having dark colored eyes. The idea is that God is light, the human body is the temple of God and therefore with the light of the body being the eye, painting an image of a human with darkness obscuring the eyes so that you couldn't see them, doesn't portray godliness. We wouldn't publish a photo where a major compositional element, ie a person's face was split by the edge of the frame, we crop the face all the way out of the picture. We wouldn't publish an image if there was, say a pole in the background that made it look like their hear was impaled on the pole. Bottom line was that we did our best to not publish images that didn't portray humans as God's best. We didn't do stuff like using dismembered body parts as compositional elements. Yes, we felt it ungodly to do stuff like that - intentionally. It wasn't meant to be really heavy duty legalistic stuff, just our best effort to make people look good as opposed to bad. It was more our effort to have TWI pubs have a style than anything else. We felt that clean uncluttered composition was more Godly than cluttered confusing stuff. I did basically every photospread in The Way Mag from '79 - 1988 with those standards in mind. I guess all this goes to say that the original thinking in TWI concerning the arts was that we wanted to encourage and inspire artisans to become truly God-inspired professionals. We studied master artisans not to tear them down but for the same reasons any artist studies the masters. We had some really good artists, and some that weren't as good. All in all we were a work in progress, we all knew that. At least those of us who were there, at the center of things. Speaking of masters there was a group of TWI artists that were actually studying with this master dude who had this atoille studio where he only accepted a few artist who wanted to study under his tutelege to do american realism or something like that. He'd do stuff and teach folks techniques the when you became really good you'd do these realistic paintings that looked so real that you felt you could eat the apple or pick up the knife off the table you'd just painted. Personally I was like, "No thank you, I'll shoot a photo...." Point being of all the perverse pervions in TWI, they perverted this one too. Being creative is a GIFT FROM GOD. If you've got it, develop it, GO for it with all you've got. Being creative IS being Godly. So freakin what if we can't actually "create." We CAN, however, BE creaTIVE. As an artist, just HOW can one be an imitator of God as a dear child without being creative?

Thanks Sunesis. Isn't that how it "always" is? "Leaders" are always the figurehead when it is actually the rank & file people who actually do the work, then the "leader" gets the credit. It wasn't my intent to say that it was VP who did the work in Rye. Nor was it my intent to say that it was VP's idea to get young people to come back to church. The youth movement started on the coasts, the article, the mag w/VP's smilin' face on the cover helped to bring national focus to what you guys were doing. VP parlayed the attention into becoming a part of the short list of every major christian leader's "top cult leaders." VP originally started The Way in Ohio, as the Chimes Hour Youth Caravan. Besides the young people in the choral group, The Way was no different than any other church a bunch of old folk doing things the old way. Your detail helps illustrate my basic position on TWI and speaks to the question about good stuff in TWI. Only you guys who were involved know the whole story about the old days of TWI. Being @ HQ we only got VP's side of what went on. You're helping to bring out the point that TWI was made up of many, many, many people's individual ministries. It was we, all of us who did the work and VP who, by mostly falling into it became this MOG figure at the "top" of the ministry. Looking back literally all of us in every category have stories of VP's heavy handed tactics in dealing w/ us to get what he wanted. It wasn't limited to the much spoken of sex thing, it was pervasive. Yes he could be kind, gentle and altogether wonderful but he was always equally horrible, often within the same few minutes of an encounter. I used to subscribe to the thinking: VPW, in the good ol days of the ministry = TWI was good LCM, in the really horrible, post VPW era = TWI became bad - really bad Rosalie, in the now = TWI irrecoverably and wholly decietfully bad. BUT. After distancing myself from TWI and then looking back on it. With thte help of info like you've suppled Sunesis I see that VPW - built the monster that TWI is. There was always a measure of VPW = BAD in TWI. However there were a lot of wonderful people in TWI who do a LOT of great things leading people to believe that TWI was good. VP had the Dr. Jeckyl/ Mr. Hyde thing going on from the beginning and throughout his tenure in TWI. In the real world, the leader is the figurehead who gets the credit for the work of the troops. BUT he also is the one who gets fired when the organization fails. We can't blame LCM completely for the monster he was. VPW in many ways CREATED the monster LCM was by the monster he, VPW modeled for LCM. Had VP stood up and yelled against the whole sex thing in the ministry it could have been snuffed out like a small campfire. VP was legendary for "melting faces." HE could have simply said something like: "Keep your freakin' dicks in your pants! And you girls keep your legs closed!" People would have done it. People would have repeated it. People would have stood around under the streetlight late at night during ROA seeing who could do the best rendition of VP - - same as we did with the other things he said. As far as trendsetting goes, VP had some good ideas through the years, but it was the PEOPLE who did the trendsetting. Bill Gates doesn't do more than a small fraction of the work at Microsoft. Whereas he, as the leader, gets the photo ops, news conferences, does the public speaking and is the richest man in the world. Literally EVERYONE who was there, in their "good ol days" is also rich beyond most of our imaginations. Bill Gates figured a way to share the wealth from his ideas. VP figured a way to be king & keep the wealth. Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't a big part of the issue with people in the way east & the way west the fact that VP demanded that they take offerings and send the $$$ to HQ?

I knew him, spent time w/ him, got to know his family, baby sat his grand kids, worked w/ him, had a reasonably prominent position in "his ministry," had his trust & respect & made decisions that effected "the whole ministry." I'm certainly not the ultimate authority on VPW, but I did know him & he knew me and liked me, so much so that he personally paid the final tuition amount that I needed to graduate from TWC. I wouldn't go so far as to call him a false profit, etc. I also won't put him in a spiritual category as King David of the Bible. What I would say of him is this: Power corrupts. And. As it says in Galatians, every man "is drawn away of his own lusts, enticed..." I just can't see VP as doing his daily thing in the ministry w/ the intent to steal Bible research, bag hot babes & be a real foot while he just didn't give a damn about anything but garnering as much $$$, the worship and the sexual favors of his followers. What I can see him doing is giving in to the ever so present sexual temptations that are an integral part of leadership in ministry. I then see him as allowing his ego to more than influence more than a few of his decisions on a regular, daily basis. My own experiences help me come to the conclusion that VPW could have become "the real deal," spiritually. People calling him the MOG for our generation (which basically came from LCM who pushed that opinion widely) seemd to go to his head. BUT. People who knew VP all his life said he was a hothead, a show-off, a rebel in the NK community with a huge ego. He felt he couild do as he pleased, and did it. One could call his life: "When keepin' it real (on the Bilble research tip) goes wrong."

Remember the nationally published article, "The Groovy Christians of Rye New York" ??? VP was on the cover of (I think it was) Parade Magazine as a new kind of preacher who was reaching out, successfully, to young people and bringing them back to the church. This was around 1971, when through the '60's teens vitually disappeared from the church in the US. TWI was at the forefront of changing the landscape of how organized christianity does things. Agai, not the only one but we were a major player in maikng it cool to go to church. Pretty much "nobody" in the church was using rock & rool style bands to do worship music back then. Also. The Way Magazine was a trendsetter, pushing the idea that "the church" could have slick magazines that rivaled newstand type publications. The church in the home concept was pretty much not happening back then when TWI started doing it. VP did a lot of things good. People have a really hard time getting past the bad stiff he did though. Even though men who were undeniable counted as "great men" did much worse than he, there is still a lot of anger floatin' around concerniing him.

Of all the negative things people have said about VP (VP actually was his actual nickname, people who knew him from his youth called him VP) the most interesting one to me is the plaguristm he "stole" stuff from everybody else & slapped his name on it as if it were his own. Why do I say that? Seeing as I worked in the Way Publications dept basically from August '78 until Aug. '88 (with a couple of leaves to go through TWC) and I never ONCE heard that accusation... It is most interesting to me. Especially seeing as every word we published had to be cleared, ad nauseum, by the legal dept. before we could put anything into print. I remember legal going over PFAL and editing the class materials "for legal reasons." The legal dept. had ultimate power over ANY deadline or publication date and they wielded it, as I said, regardless to the complaints of ANYBODY. I actually learned of the thefts of info here at the cafe. I also distinctly remember VP (again ad nauseum) talking about people he learned stuff from. I'm not speaking in VP's defense, just recounting my experience on the topic. There are copyright laws, we all know, and we also are aware of the major scrutiny on VP and TWI through the '80's from lots on "big name folk." TWI, during that same stretch made it to #2 on the most dangerous cult list. Still, no outcry about him having stole "all of his stuff." Veddy interesting to me. In terms of "good things we might remember...." I remember one critic, during his ripping TWI on the cult tip, saying that the book Recieving The Holy Spirit Today was one of the difinitive works on the subject. Again, not to defend VP, but he was a "complier" more than an originator.

There were some great times, great things and great people in TWI. VPW taught and modeled some great things - - to some, and did the complete polar opposite to others. Personally, whenever I think of the greatest things that were TWI, great accomplishments, etc. few of those great things, when I get honest w/ myself, were VPW. In reference to his teachings... the things that were truly "his," one of the things that stands out more than anything else for me was how appalled I was w/ his conclusions in the Christian Family & Sex class. Specifically "the original sin" and his overall attitude in the class; abominable. On great times & events... I remember the music - - he wasn't singing... great times w/ my friends at the rock - - he wasn't there, etc. The best things of TWI were things that OTHERS did, taught & accomplished on their own w/out VPW. I knew him, spent a good deal of time w/ him. Worked @ HQ in a pretty high profile job for 8 years. Worked w/him on many projects over a 10 year period. The further I get from TWI, looking back on it, thinking of the "good in it" the less VPW I see in it. The Bible speaks of itself as being "living and energetic." One cannot teach from it to people w/ open hearts to hear from God w/out GOD doing something good in people's lives. We must not confuse God's working His own good in people regardless of (and in spite of) VPW's intent through the years of VPW's "ministry;" w/what VP actually accomplished w/his life. I was, for a period of years responsible for TWI's historical files, the keeper of photos, etc., that chronicled and documented the ministry. Looking back through objective eyes, pretty much every major ministry event was more VPW's ego than much anything else. SO much of what he did would be considered public relations blunders (at best) for someone whose intent was to "move the Word Over the World." TWI, as an organization, basically gave "the finger" to the entire world of organized Christianity, and anyone else who challenged VPW's positions on any-thing. When folks visited, the intent was more to show off as in "look at what we've done without you" than anything else. For all that we did, we could have done SOOO MUCH MORE had VPW not stopped us in many, many ways. For example. How many more people could we have reached for God had we used Way Productions as a record label and released the music? What if we put "The Way Mag" or "Heart" on newsstands like every other rag out there? We'd have seen how good we were (or weren't) and people who God had actually called could have been brought in contact w/ "His ministry." People would have at least heard and been exposed to our unique message of "God's Word as is hasn't been taught since the 1st Century." (Great hook, BTW). When VPW ran the ministry, we did what he said, the way he said to do it. We had automony on our jobs for sure but all of the major, ministry level decision were his - done his way. Ironically, how many more people could we have reached??? How much bigger the ministry? How much MORE money would there have been had we actually REALLY tried to actually REACH people? Had VP not turned the entire contemporary Christian establishment against us w/ the whole "cult" thing. How many more people ?? How much less control would VP have had over the ministry? Just why, when TWI became a $20+ MILLION per year corporation, was it that the ministry couldn't pay people working on staff commensurate salaries with what other corporations paid people doing similar jobs? (I was paid about 1/3 of what the going rate in my profession was at the time for a jr. level and I was senior.) WHY? Because VP never gave the order to pay us appropriately. It wasn't until (the evil) Chris Geer came along w/ POP that we all got a raise across the board that at least paid us a livable salary. I survived because my wife (at the time) was paid the same as me & in essence doubled my salary. Things like that are what I look back on and simply cannot ake them line up w/ someone who was really "doing his utmost for His highest." Just doesn't line up. We had a LOT of great people in the ministry back then. All the while the great stuff was going on over here, VP was using the half million $$$ custom coach to "get jiggy" w/ hot young believer chicks that he really wanted to "get INTO the word." (If you catch my drift.) The only difference between TWI now and the "good ol days" of TWI is that there are less good people involved in it today than there was then. The rumors of things we speak openly of today have always been a part of the landscape of TWI. We just ignored so much, way too much. VP was a real deal all right.... Power corrupts... absolutely.

Agreed. God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself. the riches... which is Christ in you, the Hope of glory.... The whole God being totally united w/Jesus concept is completely undeniable via scripture. Isn't it? Isn't there also a direct scriptural corelation between Jesus' being united w/ God and us ("the born again believers" - the body of Christ - the bride) being united w/ each other? Personally, I no longer have a problem w/trinitarians. I can't deny their arguments, only the conclusion. "They say when speaking of Jesus throught out the scriptures.... "therefore he's God." I say, often of the same scriptures, "...therefore he's JUST the son of God, yet we totally agree when we speak of the relationship between the "two." I figure, at this point, since we're "all" united what's the sense of separating ourselves (as someone mentioned earlier) by arguing over it?

This, in my view is why the argument has fourished for well over 1-THOUSAND-years. This is also why I no longer rescribe to the (TWI inspired) position that one MUST (or your eternal life is at stake) choose one or the other (BTW the ONLY right position being that JC abso-freakin'-lutely is NOT God). The whole idea of the one body of christ, in my view accomplishes Jesus' prayer in John. We absolutely ARE one with another in the body of Christ AND we are absolutely members in particular. Sooo....

Hmmm.... John 17:11 says quite simply... "Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are." I never said, "... that his disciples will become one with him..." I was referring to the verse above, "that they may be one as we are." Jesus was speaking specifically of the 12 apostles in v:11, then he speaks of "us" later in the prayer, v:20 "Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word... (v:21) That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe..." ... that I am, In fact, you (God, the father) and you are me (Jesus, the son).... because they (my present and future deciples that you gave me are united within themselves. Yeah, right. Funny how so much criticism of a person's post here at the cafe, is so often preceded by a personal slam, ("...full of yourself.") Then the critic so often puts words into the mouth of the "critic-ee." Then "proves" the "critic-ee" - - "wrong" by himself saying something the person NEVER even said. Statements like that seem to be, to me, what originally inspired me to don my former screen name, "K.I.S.S." Just WHICH "relational sense" do you think Jesus was talking about? Plus. The whole "shared being" thing is something trinitarians keep in the picture. Your point of believers having the same relationship w/ each other as Jesus has w/God is PRECISELY my point in bringing up this verse. If we have the same realtionship w/ each other as Jesus has w/ God and Jesus IS God, then aren't we (believers, Jesus' deciples) all each other- as in one and the same although we are separate?