HCW

Uh, oh! Now I'm speaking for other people, not just for myself too. Sinner.

We all like you Garth!

I felt no slap. You know Mark, this is an interesting conversation to me, especially in light of how fervently "against" the Catholics TWI was. I remember buying into the TWI terminology that we call you guys "ROMAN Catholics because there is nothing universal about that church, it all came from Rome, not God." That's how Vp stated it. I remember not liking that statement but I felt I should accept it because I was ignorant of the history and felt that VP was educated on it. There is great value in your position and your posts. My current church is trinitarian. I've found that when discussing who Jesus we agree with everything we say the Bible says about Jesus except that our "therefore" conclusion varies. That to me, is not enough to summarily reject your position as "catholic" therfore differing from mine. "Intentional rejection of the truth" is an interesting statement. The easy answer is that we should not intentioanlly reject God's truth for there may be eternal consequences to that rejection. I now feel that there are some "bottom line truths" God requires of us & beyond that we're covered by his grace and mercy through His sacrifice of His son and Christ's propitiation for our sin. Some of that sin, I feel in many cases IS the intentional rejection of some (for communication's sake) "lesser" truths that are not a determinable factor in an individual's new birth. Short answer, No. intentional rejection of the truth is not ignorance, nor will God treat it as such. The "complication," if you will, is: What sin is and is not covered by the grace and MERCY of God? One would have to say it is a sin against God to reject the new birth, correct? That "sin" would be "unforgivable" and not covered by His grace and mercy - else there would be no need for Christ's redemption. In that case, no one would go to hell. Or is it that those not born again are dead to God and do not recieve of His grace and mercy? If so, then we're back to the original questions. I'm thinking that the concept of who Christ is, is to us like our babies asking us to explain things that are way out of their ability to understand. I tell my kids, "babies come from Mommy's tummy." One time one of them thought that when we went to the hospital to "have their baby sister" that Mom had to wait for a long time in the bathroom til the baby came out because that is how, and where you get things out of your tummy. It was perfectly logical to him, yet all he actually did was make a reference in HIS mind to the truth that was in front of him. The little tyke completely believed the truth although his description of it left something to be desired. I think that's how we ALL are in terms of determining who Jesus is and who God is. At this point all I really know is that I'm REALLY trying to get this thing right God, REALLY I AM!

Get DOWN, Evan. :)--> -->

What's really interesting to me, and maybe even scary, is how many CES people got so involved /w Momentus. Was there like some general assumption that CES people, (as in X-TWI people) have a general need for a "cleansing thing" like Momentus claims to be? OR. DID it spread through CES like the "fad of the day" used to spread through TWI? OR. Was it something else? My basic thinking about CES was that it was too much like TWI "was." I felt after leaving TWI that I wouldn't be free of "whatever" TWI thinking were I to still do the "same things - - only different." My "fear" was that CES, although clearly "better" than TWI, might not actually be different. Does that make sense? I wasn't sure how much subconscious "junk" might be lurking in my brain. I wanted to be sure that I was really thinking for myself, and not just regurgitating the TWI-based "thoughts" of someone else. To me, surety required a complete change - everything remotely related to TWI. I figured if the "God thing" was real God's word would live in me as it says it does. I wasn't sure if I were studying the Bible or repetitively indoctrinating myself with "wayism's" and "way-head." I wasn't sure that CES could help or detur the cleansing process. In a way Momentus seems to me like "Rodeo School" was with TWI. Same thing with "You gotta go to Gartmore..." and how the whole Chris Geer thing was at one time after POP. This was before CG was declared to be "SATAN," Now folks don't want to be associated with him. Is he "satan" because of HIS satanic ways, or because "leadership" declared him to be? People were RIDING 2000 POUND BULLS because "leadership" said it was the thing to do. It was like you weren't cool if you didn't go to rodeo school. If you didn't do well at LEAD you were "not Corps material." We HICH-HIKED hundreds of MILES across the country and "NOBODY questioned" the basic sanity of that. If you didn't go WOW, want to go WOW or "go Corps" you were "less than" as a believer. Years later, after "all that" is over... "you gotta do "Momentus???" I'm GLAD you harp on stuff like you do Garth... maybe if we'd all have harped on our personal peeves more, back then...? Should we call CES, "TWI...Continued; Different, yet still the same ???" This is not an accusation, but... is "history repeating itself" in CES? Scary.

This is why I brought up my experience in athletics training. Our coaches did things to us then that by todays standards for "training," especially at the high school level are generally considered "abusive." They DID yell at us. One coach would, as he was less than an inch from your faceguard, yelling at you for your indescretion(s) on the field would hit the side of your helmet with his baseball-style hat. The "PLINK!!" of the button on the top of his hat as it hit your helmet would make your ears ring, Oww! Abusive? We used to laugh in the locker room about who would be next and scare the rookies with our experiences of how occasionally he'd spit while yelling, "S#!t, S#!t, S#!t!" He'd always say it 3 times - - in groups of three. We learned to deal with that kind of intensity. We learned there was "a method to his madness." We learned to BE that intense on the field. We were (and they still are) perennial champions, "always" make the playoffs never out of the hunt for the Western PA and state Championship til the "fat lady sings and time runs out." We rarely "lose" you must be "the better team" on a given night than we. My point is not to relive old highschool days or brag. Its to illustrate that there are times and areas of performance in this life where "there is a method to the madness." Every thing ISN'T for every body. The simple facts of this matter prove that just because people had good experiences doesn't make Momnetus "great," nor do the bad experiences of others make it "abuse."

I'm thinking that's a bit of a stretch Garth. I see a vast chasim between what I'm saying and anyone telling a victim, "Its YOUR fault, if you never went there he wouldn't have done what HE did TO you." That logic says, "What THEY did to you is YOUR fault." I'm certain that TWI utilizes that logic in their quest for irresponsibility and desparate attempts to absolve themselves of the guilt they refuse to want to acknowledge. I'm certain that Wafers in my categories (leadership, WC, HQ staffer) have used and still do use the same logic. However. I am not, nor have I ever been one of them. I DO resent being connected, however loosely or sarcastically to it. The "logic" I see in your post seems to illustrate that the words "personal responsibility" and "self discovery" are like cuss words or as a favorite cartoon character of mine would say, "Them's fightin' words.!" It is obviously a peeve a yours. I have my peeves too. Yes. One of MY personal peeves is that SOME ex-wafers don't or haven't yet accepted personal responsibility for their lives. SOME X-TWI folk bear, in fact, a large degree of culpability in "what happened to them." Others have absolutely NONE. Still others have little to no idea whether they do or not. I believe we ALL (even you Garth ) have at least one thing in common - - that being that we've ALL been hurt by TWI to some degree, some even unto death. (Like my personal friend and hopefully by now GS Cafe icon Rochelle - - [:o--> lest we forget]). I can see your point that Momentus as an organization or certain Momentus trainers may adopt your view of "Momnetus logic." I just feel your paintbrush is too wide, based on your own perceptions, especially seeing as you, admittedly have not experienced one second of Momentus training. (Which BTW is one of MY peeves.) You paint with too wide a brush, my friend. I'm not saying you're wrong about Momentus. I must be true to my own peeve. I haven't "been there - - done that" either. I've even done LESS research on it than you. I'm just saying, I'd appreciate it if you waited until I actually DID, specifically say some of the stuff you're peeved about. In the meantime express your points without connecting me personally to it. I didn't see any mention of "logic," I saw my initials, my name and my nickname.... ME! Attached to a position - - expressing "logic" I personally detest. Don't do that. I think this discussion can be even be subtitled, "whatever floats your boat." Your position certainly gives me pause concerning Momentus. I'd even say that if I saw someone gleefully considering it I might say "Hey, have you considered...." There are even some who consider sarcasm to be abusive.... Therefore. Things similar are not identical.

Another "grenade" lofted over the wall Garth? Do you really not see that a person CANNOT be "at fault" for the decisions ANOTHER person makes? Even if person A is involved "up to their eyeballs" they are not responsible for what part B decides. Don't get it twisted. Example: A woman decides to go for a run in the park; a rapist sees her and rapes her. It is NOT her fault she got raped. In fact, it is FURTHER abuse to even phrase it as "she got raped." SHE didn't "get raped" HE attacked her. ... completely different connotation that includes her in culpability for the rape. She was responsible for her actions in going running... PERIOD. The runner is NOT culpable in the rape. Groucho was absolutely not responsible for the situation. The reactions of the others to his questions were THEIR freewill decisions. The runner's actions were not criminal nor abusive by nature; the rapist's were. That is why we don't encarcerate rape victims, but we do convict the driver of the getaway car in a robbery, even though he proves, "All I did was DRIVE a car! I didn't steal anything!" If the driver was fully aware of the fact that he was waiting to drive the robbers from the scene, he's culpable for the crime. If the robbers bum-rushed him and jacked his car, forcing him to drive them away, NO culpability in the crime. I think you KNOW that Garth. STOP connceting me with YOUR obvious pet peeve Garth. I have never said anything to the effect of it is a victim's fault for what someone else does to them. I would NEVER lay ALL the responsibility and culpability for "what happened" on any ONE person when the decisions of others are CLEARLY involved. Smells a lot like propaganda to me, Garth. Seeing as my initials were the next thing you said... looks to me like you're connecting me to that thinking. Each time the issue come us, you refer to me. I resent that. STOP it.

I too, applaud your honesty in Groucho. Actually though, You don't. At least not completely. You don't reject the idea that ANYONE... You've just shared your thoughts, and at times HAVE shared your past experiences - here in the cafe.... with US! :)--> I might add that this forum, the internet is about as "open and public" as one can get. Please don't view this post as a personal attack on you Groucho, I have a ton of respect for you and really do appreciate what you've added to the discussion. My point is, it seems your choice is when, where, and what you'll share of yourself - - under what circumstances. Which in my view is a prime example of taking personal responsibility for one's life. You obviously do not agree with what you know of what Momentus does, so you soundly reject the notion of involving yourself with them. Bravo. Sincerely. Bravo. Others may disagree with a position like yours and involve themselves, and LIKE it. The one who takes and enjoys the training may then feel that you, via your rejection of Momentus have robbed yourself of potential "blessings" such as they have receievd from it. You on the other hand may feel that your rejection insulates and insures you from recieving the potential devastation that another has recieved. At any rate, I find the simple, straightforwardness on your position refreshing.... In my view you just don't want to be involved with it for your own reasons. Cool. Thank you for sharing some of them with us. ...is a personal statement that leaves us more free to come to our own conclusions (as you have) than had you said something to the effect of, "I don't think people should reveal their secret sins to anyone." I feel your post helps illustrate the point of personal responsibility vs irresponsibility. I think it it is irresponsible by nature to tell someone what they should or should not do. Although, perhaps, well intended, the nature of telling another what they should do falls down on the controlling side. Again I appreciate that you, Groucho, took the higher ground. If we watch a couple hours of American network TV nowadays we are bombarded with messages about wonder drugs that "can help you." Have we listened carefully to the disclaimer that follows the POTENTIAL promise that YOU may experience the "joy" of "I've been outbreak free of herpes for the better part of a year...??" If so we would see that it is a hold harmless clause against the potential that you may expereince the "horror" of the myriad side effects that others DEFINITELY have already experienced. To MY ear, the potential side effects are a LOT worse than the affliction. I will keep my teenie weenie, thank you. I'll find another way to get to be a guest on Oprah.... Momentus, in a manner of speaking is no different than anything else that people offer, hence the "pill" analogy. It is something that someone offers to "everyone" in the hope that it will appeal to those who feel it may help them. "Sign ze papers," is a simple reality of necessity of our current litgious American society. I weep for the losses anyone has suffered at the hand of Momentus and share the joy of any who has benefitted from it. My personal position on it is the same as anything else; "caveot emptor" buyer beware, consider the cost, etc. etc. I don't support it, per se, but I, as an American, feel I must support their right to offer it. I never even heard of it before this thread.

This is very close to my general position accross the board on basically EVERY doctrinal error, this topic included. I follow your logical progression and really cannot disagree with your point: Sure. I basically agree one should do things correctly, in the form and fashion of their design. However, my further position is that God is bigger than all of this, every thing - - all of us. In my 17 years sans TWI, I've found that I think that, perhaps the most agregious transgression of TWI is what I now call an obsession with "Biblical Accuracy"Of cousel the logical prgression demands that if one is goin gto follow the scriptures one should "get it right" and NOT intentionally do contrary to the scriptures and adopt their contrary ideas and adopt them as a sacrement. BUT. IMO the obsessionn with "accuracy" supplanted the basic honesty before God. ie; "Gee whiz God, I'm REALLY trying to get this thing right." Hence, the honest intent to "get it right" but being "wrong" (or scripturally innacurate) out of ignorance places individuals, even whole denominations in a position to be covered by GOD's grace. We are saved by grace, not of works, lest any man should be boastful about it. I agree with you in the context of sacrements. The grace of God factor, to me, accounts for how I've seen evidence that suggests that peoples, both trinitarians and non indeed are born again. Therefore, I'm submitting, as an answer to the topical question: It seems to me, that what really matters to God is where your heart is when you approach him for His gift of salvation. It seems like getting one's heart in the proper place is more important than the sacrement (or lack thereof) that one employs. "... if you make Jesus Lord of your life in your heart and confess the same with your mouth, God then saves you by His grace and mercy." I think one can do that and be ignorant of trinitarian sacrements.

Ok , ok, but what about it? The concept of being born again.... as they say; the crux of Christianity. The links posted above are some interesting reading for sure. BUT. I've seen it argued from both sides. Well meaning trinitarians who fear that "pseudo christians" who do not believe the trinity CAN'T be born again without it and equally well meaning Non trinitarians who believe that trinitarians cannot be born again BECAUSE they believe the trinity. Personally, I defer to the power piece of the equation. A scripture that says, "Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the POWER of God." What about the POWER? What about the lack of ability to understand the scrptures without being born again? If both sides of the debate are powerless, then the debate is endless and reasoning like "they crucified a body double for Jesus" deserves equal footing with any other "theory" concerning him. IMO if Jesus, went along with having another person DIE that HORRIBLE death in his place, then claim that it was in fact HE who died. THEN told people he was ressurrected from the dead. IF that is my Jesus, then he is NOT a good man, he is a liar, a hypocrite, a fraud, and an accessory before and after the fact to murder. Certianly the body double was innocent of the "crimes" they crucified "Jesus" for. Certainly he is NOT God, nor is he the savior of anyone. A lack of power in your life from your salvation would allow one to consider that Jesus could be complicit with such a fraudulent, dare I say, criminal deception. Therefore the ENTIRE Christian church, the entire faith built on Jesus, is nothing but a hypocritical purpetration of fraud. ANY good done in the name of Jesus by the church would be tainted; stained by the blood of the murdered body double. Would not following Jesus, the purpetrator - the central figure of this faith and even claiming to be "born again" having his spirit alive inside you and living by "his ways" make us all Christians as guilty of the murder that day on the cross - - as guilty as he, Jesus? If that Jesus/body double story IS true, and we have founded our nation on "christian principles," we are a nation of liars, murderers and deceivers. No wonder people of those faiths have no trouble with driving a car-bomb into a croud of our people and blowing it up; OR Crashing an airplane into our buildings that stood as a symbol of the strength of our country. No wonder they resist when we try to "americanize" their cultures. HOWEVER. It is the power that the name of Jesus Christ brings that is the BIG and ONLY major thing that separates Jesus from everyone else. If you have that power in your life it ends the dabate for you. If people on both sides have the power, it ends the debate for me. One thing, I think, is certain; you can have NO power of God to manifest in your life without being born again.

I wasn't talking about YOU personally Garth. I was speaking of a general "you" as in "people" or more specifically as "you" the victim, Not YOU, the Garth. ...could have just as easily been written as: A victim must COMPLETELY separate what they did in relationship TO the attack from what the attacker did IN the attack. PERIOD. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I think pretty much ANY time you get attacked, you're caught by surprise AND forced into something you don't want. You're NOT catching my drift Garth. Can I say it ANY more clearly than this as follows? NO Victim is in ANY way culpable for the ATTACK. The full extent of a victim's culpability ends with PROXIMITY. Eg: I parked my car outside my home. A BURGULAR broke into it and stole my stereo. My culpability ends with my parking the car. I am in NO WAY culpable for the BURGULAR breaking in and stealing my stereo. I'm STILL confronted with a measure of irrational guilt, "If only I had parked somewhere else, he might not have hit my car." To deal with the irrational, emotional connection, I take a good hard look at what I did. In so doing I "discover" and acknowledge and finally BELIEVE... HEY! I had EVERY right to park where I did, Its MY car! It was in front of MY home! THE BURGULAR IS RESPONSIBLE FOR WHAT HEDID TO ME. I feel bad because of what HE did, NOT what I did. I CAN feel OK with what I did, because what I did was FINE. I'm not attacking YOU Garth. Its not psychobabble to acknowledge that victims of sexual indescretion often feel responsible for the attack. My mother was attacked and viciously raped - - long before I was born. Her psyche was damaged. She told me when I was a young teen of how for years SHE felt somehow responsible for the attack. She spoke of how she felt, "If only I had left five minutes later... maybe ten minutes earlier... If I had done something differently to put me in a different PLACE at s slightly different TIME, then I wouldn't feel as I do now. It wouldn't have happened to me if I wasn't THERE." That's what my Mom told me. After she separated herself from her attackers actions, the process helped her to heal. I have three beautiful daughters. I'm not about to have them go out into the world ill prepared for its realities because I hold onto worthless psycho-babble.

That statement, IMO is precisely the crux of this matter. I never said that. I don't think anyone who practices principles regarding taking personal responsiblity for one's ENTIRE life does either. Your statement: is a LOT closer to what I'm saying. You MUST separate what YOU did from what THEY did, COMPLETELY. PERIOD. i.e.: I went into the motorcoach HE attacked me. I am not culpable in HIS attack. However, I DID place myself in his proximity. I'm not responsible for HIS perversion of MY intent which was OBVIOUSLY to VISIT with a minister. I fully expected him to MINISTER, as is the true NATURE of a minister. (the connection withthe scorpion is only in the fact of, "this is what I do." I, as a scorpion have a natural propensity to sting. I as a minister have a natural propensity towards minstering. A thief steals, a runner runs, a teacher, teaches, etc. AND a PREDATOR, preys. Unless a victim can successfully SEPARATE their own actions from that of the attacker, THEIR own actions WILL torment them. The torment is about facts, not guilt. The guilt storms down on the victim because the fact is UNDENIABLE. AFTER the incident has occurred, you cannot deny that YOU walked in of your own accord. You can be freed by saying, YES! I walked in. BUT. That Predator preyed on me. He is responsible for the attack not me. Your response blurred this all so crucial distinction Garth. Its not about them being able to help themselves. AFTER the occurrence of the incident. The attacker, what he can and cannot help is COMPLETELY irrelevant to you, the victim. You're dealing with YOUR ownership of the pain, Your ownership of the damage, your desire to be healed. The attacker is irrelevant and separate to that process. His relevance ends with YES HE did this to me, HE is the CAUSE, the FAULT is HIS. My culpability ends at thhis point. AND MY culpability has NOTHING to do with what HE did TO me. I followed the Way, IT was a cult. THEY decieved ME, I was honestly seeking God. I hate them for what they did, but I am beyond that NOW. I will not follow any other cults. I will be MORE CAREFUL in my choices regarding who I follow and WHY I follow them. I AM now more careful. I use what I've learned about cult behavior (THEIR cult behavior) to make a positive difference in the church I attend NOW. I have NO problem sitting through any classes offered, I know MY culpability ends with my desire to learn, Theirs deals with their intent in what they are teaching. I am less apt to accept ANYTHING anyone says, because YOU may be a scorpion in disguise JUST LIKE VPW WAS. Catch my drift? I'm personally responsible for what happens TO me. I don't care what YOUR nature is, I will better protect myself (from "you") than I did in the past.

"40 million Chinamen can't be wrong." "If everybody jumps off a bridge are you gonna junp too?" Two expressions used to express ideas. In my view they contradict. Yet SOME accept either or both as "truth." Another widely accepted idea, in the form of a familiar story has the scorpion who bums a ride across the stream a rabbit's very capable to navigate the stream's back. First he hesitates to give the ride for fear of the scorpion's poisonous sting. We all know the end of the story where the bunny asks with his dying breaths, "Why did you sting me after your promise not to," Scorpion answers, "Its my nature to sting." I personally beileve that to be TOTALLY free from any injury an individual, even a victim, MUST take full personal responsibility for whatever level of culpability they had in whatever happened TO them. I think "blaming" you attacker for attacking you cannot totally free you from injury inflicted upon you any more than "blaming" the scorpion in the story freed the rabbit from dying from the sting. My comments on this issue of personal responsibility resulted in me getting flamed and "bum-rushed" in my first few days of posting at GS Cafe. I spoke of it in the context of at least SOME of VP's & LCM's & others' sexual victims carrying a certain level of culpability and "personal responsibility" for the attacks they experienced. If I am hearing what I think I'm reading here, Momentus training would breach the subject with a victim like that and say something to the effect of, for example: "Had you not willingly entered the motorcoach... Had you not willingly drank of the drink... HE could not have drugged you and raped you." Is that close? I'm going out on a limb here and will say I think that's what I'm hearing concerning at least part of Momentus Training. My experience in dealing with my own life, my own injuries in every category and even times when I've been victimized is this. It is EXTREMELY DIFFICULT for me to get past what THEY did TO me. Acknowledge as I may my innocence and lack of culpability for THEIR actions, I'm STILL haunted by the "If I had only... done "this, that or WHATEVER" different that would have placed me somewhere, ANYWHERE but where the incident occurred. Even when someone broke into my home, I'm haunted by: If I had not gone to run that errand THAT day... If I had taken the cellphone they stole with me... If I... IF I.... I'm not so much tormented by "Those jerks! THEY stole my stuff... " "THEY hurt me," is VERY easy to accept, deal with and move away from... in comparison. The "If only I's ..." - not they, haunt me. The hauntings fade away when I accept FULL responsibility for MY actions, no matter how I may or may not like them. The fact remains, when it is all said and done and I'm alone on my pillow about to fall asleep at night.... I TOTALLY own the pain, independant of the attacker. I want to be TOTALLY free of it. Alone at night when the pain and dismay awakens me... "YOU did this to me!" doesn't cut it. That does basically NOTHING for me. I feel better, I get healing by saying, "You. Mr. Scorpion, will NEVER even get the chance to even THINK about stinging ME. I know MY nature is to be trusting. I even enjoy how I would feel by helping you out with a ride across the stream. HOWEVER. YOU are a scorpion. If you want a ride from ME you will climb into this impenatrable box. Once you are secured inside the box. I will approach the box and carry IT across the stream. BTW. You'd better hurry and get in the box, cause I'M about to cross." I personally believe that had I, the rabbit in the second story, NOT taken personal responsibility for MY level of culpability, in previous attacks, I would not have have taken the steps to either purchase or BUILD the impenatrable box. Therefore I would still be vulnerable and susceptable to future "scorpion attacks." I think there is an additional element of responsibility of the attacker, for sure, mutually exclusive of the victim. I'm not saying you "blame" the victim for the attackers actions in ANY way. However. There is no incarceration, punishment, etc. on an attacker that makes ME less susceptable to HIS attack. It is HIS nature to ATTACK. HE has crafted his approach to take advantage of MY natural tendancy to be GOOD and trusting. I MUST take a proactive approach to enable and empower myself as "scorpion proof." That feels great. It feels healthy. I feel strong. I do not allow a past attacker to change my core nature which is to be trusting. I just get out my box when dealing with scorpions. I also has a higher price for admission which includes a "no scorpions allowed" clause. It is in light of the experiences of others regarding VP's, etc, sexual indescretions, etc. that I've taught and continue to teach my daughters that ANY time you ride, alone in ANY guy's car (except MINE, your BROTHER's, MY brother's and any other I give you my specific, express written permission to ride in...) You MAY be riding with a SCORPION. Don't ride with scorpions, don't give scorpions a ride. If Momentus takes people down a similar path of self discovery, navigating people through even the most painful portions of their past so they can come out on the other side, "scorpion proof" there is value in that for the individuals who find it.

That is really wierd about the ROA campgrounds. Especially since "the vision" was that ROA would NEVER die. IMO. The ONLY thing I think they could do to give a good appearance of "cleaning up" would be to reinstate ROA. They could scale it back to something their current staff & leadership could handle, both in terms of size & length of time. God knows they have the bucks. Perhaps they've forgotten that the first ROA was only 1,000 people? They have no intention of truly cleaning up. What do they plan to do? Have their next generation of kids say as tourguides... "See that overgrown, weedy, bramble filled area over there? That was where great granpa VP and LCM used to have this thing we called ROA." Kid says, "What does ROA mean Daddy?" "Ask you mother, she remembers."

They do a few things that make them a better neighbor like after they stopped ROA they donated or sold some of the equipment they'd no longer need to the local park. Now its a really great well equipped park. They could do SOO much more, like just be NORMAL people. They STILL do not allow TWI kids to dissolve into the local school community. Most local HS kids get cars or at least have access to their parent's second or third car. They, like all teenagers, run in packs going here or there. Normal teenage dynamic. My daugher would ask me as short time ago as this past June during the graduation party season, why would TWI parents NOT allow WAY kids to ride in the cars of locals. Their ONLY reasoning was thet the driving kid wasn't a wafer. My daughter spoke for a lot of them when she told me she was insulted by the insolence of TWI parents. Some local parents would tell their own kids to ride with my Jasmine because they felt she was a better driver than their own kid. The Way kids just weren't allowed to go, they didn't get their own cars, and parents would seldom allow them to use theirs. The TWI kids who made the graduation party circuit came together, rode together, left together. Very few parents came. Its tradition in NK that parents will visit their kid's best friends parties, another charming thing to me. Not one TWI parent showed up at my kid's party, and I'm actually (or at least WAS) closer friends with the TWI folk. This type of stuff upsets "the balance" in a small town like that. Some TWI kids are really decent people and the other kids want to hang with them as part of "everybody." IF they didn't have such off the wall ideas about crazy stuff, that is. The PARENTS say no. Trickle down from the current BOD. TWI people keep you at arm's length now and you can feel it. When you hit it off with them to the point of saying, "Hey we should do something someime!" They invite YOU to s STS.... but they won't come to YOUR church, or go to your house, or invite you to theirs, like for dinner & a board game of movie on DVD. Why don't you come to a Sunday service? They're really great lately. (cue Twighlight Zone music....) PLUS they cuss like sailors, a lot of them. I found it really uncomfortable, like the person was cussing to prove he was cool to me. I was like,"Sh- - man, why you gotta cuss so f#'ing much?" :D--> :o--> Lol!

In terms of the "vandalism" that TWI hated so much... It was way (no pun intended) BEFORE VP's day when they named the road. More recently. People would "hall foot down that road or throw bottles or trash out on the grounds" and shoot the signs with shotguns, and do other "normal" country type mischief. They have their own non-verbal "language" of things they do in that area. To me, its part of the local charm. When they shot the signs with shotguns, that was "localese" for, "we don't want you here no more." If you do something people like and you're popular, say like a favorite teacher announcing your retirement. They will T-P (toilet paper for us ignorant city slickers :-) your trees. People drive by and know who lives there (cause "everybody" knows that) The T-P'ing is a public announcement of your popularity. Folks will see you out and it a conversation starter, like, "I see they got your house..." "Yeah, I'm retiring next month..." is how you respond, then you laught & chit chat about things & stuff around it. Next day at school you invite some students over to help clean up the mess. Some of the ones who did it help clean up. You hang with the kids increasing your popularity. If they don't like you.... Say you sell your family farm and make it an international headquarters that brings in a bunch of outsiders. Or, you post some angry stuff on the door of the local church. AND do other things that in the local non-verbal language give the "middle finger" to the community.... They let you know they don't like it by throwing bags of cow manure on your lawn. The worse the infraction, the more, and stinkier the Sh!& they throw in your yard (human and pig smells the worst). They put it in bags because otherwise the manure is fertilizer the spots it lands on and you'd just leave it there or spread it out a little and get better, healthier grass! They MAKE you go all the way out to the side of the road (where anybody driving by can see you) and deal with THEIR SH!# after you've "sh!#" on them. Of course they must haul foot down your road, else they would be caught in the act. Then. "Everybody" knows who did it by the rubber tracks they leave behind because "everybody" knows who owns the cars capable of leaving a track like that. like; "Mike's car's tires are wider than that, this was Jim because he's the only one around who can leave a track that long - - and zig zag it like that. That's his trademark tire skid, right there." But that's not enough to convict you. The police know who did it. They're your neighbors too and their family hears you when you leave and come back home. I found the whole thing more interesting than aggrivating. Locals didn't do it every day. They did stuff like that in response to what TWI was doing at different times of the year, Like ROA when TWI messed up the normal tranquility of the area by bringing in all of us "crazy outsiders." SOME TWI people did things that deserved a response from the locals. Things like having sex with local girls (who was some local guy's girlfriend) being rude to locals at restaurants, in the name of, "we gotta get out of here to get to the Rock!" Stuff like that. I say all this to speak to the point that SOMETIMES we give too much credence, and power and attention to TWI. They were what they were, certainly. Nut in a LOT of ways they were, and certainly now are NOBODY. Their thoughts, opinions and current failures sometimes are just not worth the time & effort to think about. Most of what they do now is just BS. TWI could have lived in harmony w/ locals had VP not middle fingered them so much and so often in the later 60's / early 70's. He finally wised up and embraced the community in his last years, but now, TWI is very irrelevant to the local community.

True... The whole area was engineered many decades ago, (over 100 years maybe? I don't know that specifically) by county planners in 1 mile blocks with a few angle roads that cut diagonally across the blocks. The roads were named in a very practical manner, basically to aid in the delivery of US mail. Each plot of land in the rural areas is assigned a 5 digit number that you will see on the verticle green sign posts roughly in the middle of the piec of the land that fronts the public road. Eg: My address was 06208 Cloverleaf road. That address tells postal workers as well as first responders, like fire fighters, police and paramedics precisely where in the county my house could be found, which was on the southwest end of clover leaf road which was in the northwest grid of... You see my point. Also, since the plots of land originally were basically bought by individuals as farms...About 150 years ago, the landowners originally built and named the roads, in cooperation with county officials. Calling it "Wierwille road." told people it was the road used to get to the wierwille farm. Some roads are named things like "wierwille-poppe road" because the Poppe family owns the farm on the other side of the road. BUT. Wierwille-Poppe is too many letters to put on the standard size sign and the wierwille farm takes up more of the road than anybody else's property. So they settled on the name Wierwille Road. The names of the roads help people know where they are, Its actually kinda cool but has NOTHING to do with TWI.

It is normal and customary in the area there in Ohio to name the road to the farm it connects to after the family name of the farm owner. Yes, Wierwille road is a public road, owned by Auglaize County.

Thanks Garth. That helps me see Goey's point more clearly. Yes. I'd agree about the "Christian character," hold harmless remark. It kinda reminds me of what folks say about nightclubs that have armed security guards being "safe." They have armed security because they NEED it. AND. How safe can it be if they need armed security? Catch 23 Maybe? The Hold harmless thing does strike me as a little suspicious.... How about, "Don't harm US, we'll harm YOU?" Would I be safe to think of Momentus as a sort of Tony Robbins meets Bootcamp in the name of Jesus?

With all due respect Goey.... Have you personally seen or taken part in any Momentus Training? I haven't. I'm not commenting on or detracting legitimacy from what they do/don't do. However, I could say the same things you said about Momentus of high school football practice, wrestling practice or any athletic training, especially high level athletics. I got physically injured many times during my high school athletic career - so much so the local emergency room staff knew me & my Mom by name... like "What'd he do NOW, Mrs. Walker?" :-) I would say some of what our coaches put us through could be deemed, "extreme psychological based training." In that light I wonder, speaking out of an admitted ignorant position on Momnetus, what do YOU mean by "extreme psychological training?" Also. There are a LARGE number of CHURCHES in this country that one could say only do "lip service to Christ." I'm thinking one should provide some specifics, like, "They say this (honoring Christ with their lips) but their actions (this specific, undeniable thing you have witnessed them DO) prove that their heart is far from him. I say this not to criticise you Goey, I'm speaking from a "prove all things, hold fast to the good perspective." Along with a healthy curiosity and faith that you can expand on your points a little. Thanks.

O I C - then we'd have a real, silly election, right?

Hmmm... a well designed plot to steal the election?

Who voted that nominations be closed? Smells like a Florida breeze on a shady day to me. ;)-->

My experience with her was always decent. In fact she was there a lot of the times when I spent time w/ Mrs. Laurie was a great kid too. One of the few children of the higher-ups who never gave us any trouble in Children's fellowship. I never had a bad expereince with Wanda. Never even heard of anyone else having a bad experience with her.