HCW

...and your own, private, luxuriously well appointed lavatory. Soft, heated seat.

All you can eat WOWburgers.

Nice save Mista Hamma! I was gonna declare you ineligible for the presidency because of your aggregious insult of Way Productions and ignorance of the beer bashes (plural) we had under the big top. Dave Garabaldi was only THE BEST rhythm & blues drummer in the WORLD while he was playing w/ Way Prod. He, Skip Mesquite, Danny Hoefer surely belong in the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame (or some hallo of music fame) for their contributions to Tower of Power. Google them, see what comes up. Branded was second in this national Wrangler Country Music battle of the bands thing. I think they "lost" to Sawyer Brown (Rumor has it dey wuz ROBBED!). This was decades prior to American Idol. First prize was a recording contract. I'm sure Way Productions, in its hey-day could have put maybe, hmmm, 5, 6, maybe 10 singers DEEP into the American Idol competition. Joyful Noise was a GREAT band. If you ever heard them just jamming they would knock your SOCKS(! ;)--> ) off. VOTE for me.... and I'll set you free!

Sorry coolchef. Dana is a she. She's a newbie here at the cafe but she's a wealth of knowledge, grace and level-headed insights about life in general and TWI to. And a really cool human being to boot. :)--> In fact her knowledge of TWI goes waaaay back to the beginnings of the "youth revolution" in the ministry. She & I have been good friends since...??? I don't even remember when ... Dana? Mid to late 70's??? Yes Dana, I got your reply. Busy with kids is an understatement! I have some time this evening after 5pm, its our scheduled, do stuff at home night. I never even heard of Momentus before this thread, but I subscribe to CES's magazine. There, back on topic.

From what I've seen most contemporary churches offer tons of classes on every topic from A to Z. I can't speak for a whole lot of churches, but the one I attend doesn't pressure people to take them. We try to offer classes that people actually WANT to take. Several years ago after having done the "Purpose Driven Life" study thing, our senior pastor got inspired to alter the entire group of classes we offer. We now call our entire program "A Path With a Purpose" where we went through the process of first identifying then categorizing all of our classes, seminars, etc. into a "path" of the development a person would go through from "1st Base" when a person first is introduced to "the Christian life." through where he becomes a lifelong committed follower of Jesus Christ. The classes are split into "Bases" (using a baseball diamond analogy) and speak toward the "what do I do now?" questions people have in their growth in their walk w/God. Wayfer Not!. I really feel you on your "I won't sit through any more darn classes" position. There are churches out there however who simply offer classes and work HARD to develop classes people might actually WANT to take. Eg. We started a class last Sunday... "Parenting Your Teenager." The materials come from "somewhere out there" and are taught by people who have some actual credentials, education, and experience, not to mention spiritual insight which actually qualifies them to speak to the issues they bring up. We had about 150 people crammed into the biggest meeting room we have. People obviously have issues with and want to learn about, get (and GIVE) pointers on discuss, etc. raising teens. I had a great experience with my #1 kid, who's away at college now, but hey, if there is a tid bit I can pick up, I'm all ears. They class format involves breaking out into small groups, forming relationships, discussing and praying and partnering together to deal with the issues that come up and are spoken of in the videos. "Qualified" lay people from the congregation facilitate the class. It costs $5.00 to pay for the class workbook. If you can't afford one, they'll give one to you - - no problem. Quite the antithesis from the TWI class thing, isn't it? We do, have certain classes that are "mandatory" to become a member of the church. Not the coersion twi, type thing but a more common sense approach.... How can you become a member without knowing what this group is about? That sorta thing. Nobody double checks if you actually took the classes or not. Its more of a postitive thing. I took them all because I was interested in hearing what they had to say. People who speak up are welcome, they usually have something valuable to say!

Looking for a new church? "What do you say to your pastor at a time like this?" I don't think you should talk to him about doctrine. No church is perfect. No body is perfect. That being said, a short answer is to pick a church you can live with being a part of. TWI was obsessed with doctrine. The whole accuracy and integrity thing - - Given what we now know about how accurate TWi wasn't, we probably wouldn't choose them either! One church I used to attend regularly for about 3 years actually... when I first started attending, a asked to meet with the senior pastor privately. I told him, "I was deeply involved with The Way for many, many years. Worked on their staff, worked closely w/Wierwille, himself. I'm no longer a part of their ministry." Then asked him, :Are you gonna have a problem if I attend your church." I point-blanked him on the issue. He said, "It depends." We had a nice conversation around the theme of, "I'd rather focus on things we agree on and have in common than things we may have to argue about." His part of the conversation had a good bit to do with "what we believe here." We agreed that we could handle our differences if and when they came up. I think you're gonna find doctrinal differences with ANY mainstream church. There were things along the way over the years that I didn't necessarily agree with, doctrinally. I did, however agree with the basic philosophy and direction of the church. I could live with it, so I did. God taught me a LOT of stuff there. I learned how NOT to be so narrow-minded on what GOD's omnipotent purpose for His Word is. (Imagine that?) It was SOOO cool hearing the same things taught from a different perspective. It even more cool hearing things taught that contradicted TWI's teachings. God helped me to "prove all things and hold fast to the good." Now I'm very much at home in a different church, been there going on 8 years. I never joined the first church and have been a member where I am now for a few years. (I didn't take notice of when I joined - - don't remember.) At my current church, being a member gives you the right to vote on major financial matters for the church and elect official church board leadership as well as allowing you to be elected to the board. Its pretty much inconsequential otherwise. I can live with that. Our senior pastor does a monthly "Meet the Pastor" meet & greet casual conversational type get together for new folk. He asked us what we thought about the services. I asked him if he could "loosen up a little & let more of his personality out when he spoke. He's a double doctrate highly educated and formally eloquent guy from the pulpit. I asked him if he could be a little less formal. He said, "That's a little rough for me, but I'll give it a try." I could live with that. He listened to me, some new guy. Lots of folks in the room were nodding about him being a little stiff & formal with a bit much of a vocabulary (even his wife! :-). What I'm getting at, is ask your guy questions that mean something to you. I didn't have many just in case you're like TWI questions to ask because the church already is up front about stuff like that. Eg: A week ago Sunday we brought in a little over $71,000 in tithes & offerings... and we're about $4,000 behind our budget for the fiscal year, which started on Sept 1. The amount of $$ we bring in each week is published in the program the following week. Even strangers, visitors and whomever can see the bucks we bring in. We have an annual meeting every year in Sept. where members get an anuual report that itemizes budget and spending for the previous and projections for the current year. The church charter requires that purchases over a certain amount are approved by a simple majority of the membership. SUch expenditures are discussed in an open mike meeting wher anyone can speak their piece about it. The board governs the church - six men of honest report full of the holy spirit and wisdom are elected to revolving two year terms. Each year guys go off the board and others elected and others stay on the board so there is stability and fresh blood every year. I know this is long, but it also, I think gives you some of the things I learned about my church that made me comfortable with it before joing as a member. Now I'm part of the core ministry leadership team. I have some say in what we do, some events and even make budget proposals to submit to the board. We're a big church with about a $3mil yearly budget to work with. Basically my church is a lot of what TWI at its best wanted to be and it wants to grow into l a lot of what TWI was.... a church in many locations. Currently we have two. We have what we call small groups (like twigs) that meet in people's homes all over the area. We're trying to grow that into the main meeting system of the church, but its hard as people think the basic Sunday & Wednesday night service model. In theory you should be aqble to walk into a church and say, "hi I'm home." As somebody else said. all churches are NOT created equal. Gotta find one you can live with. God will help you, He knows your heart, which to me seems in the right place. Later.

I really appreciate it that he took the effort to write a book about his experiences. I read the exerpts from it and found a couple of the things he spoke of to be "innacurate." None theless, I won't criticise him for it. He deserves credit for putting it together. I agree that people who have some stories to tell should tell them. I've thought about putting a book together from my time in TWI. Not to say that "my" book would be better that Karl's. I think there are many stories, many "realities" that people lived in TWI. There may be a bigger audience for them than we than we think. I was shocked by how many hits my LEAD Accident thread got.

What are you studying Hamma? I'm thinking about doing the similar. It just dawned on me at age 46 that it would be well for me to have an advanced degree like a masters or a docturate. I feel you on the shortcut remark.

I'm saddened that I missed the funeral. One thing that I've seen in death, having buried both of my parents, is that when it comes right down to it - - nothing else matters at the funeral. When other things try, and sometimes do, rear up their ugly head, those with eyes to see & ears to hear, see & hear how truly UGLY the ugliness is and just how much it really doesn't matter. No, not right NOW. A funeral, in my opinion and experience, gives the living, the loved ones left behind a chance to transcend our daily rat race as humans and focus on what is truly important. We can show for just a little while - that we are worthy to be "more than the angels" and made in the image of God. For just a little while we can put on the brakes on everything and focus ONLY on the great and good things we have in this life and the ONLY thing we really have - - each other, in its greatest form - FAMILY. The irretrievable loss of the loved one we've gathered for on that today proves how temporary and fragile "we" are. We pain, we mourn, we remember, then we laugh, we cry over the good, the great. What we should see at the time of remembrance of a loved one is whatever it is that binds us, not what separates us. I'm happy , as it seems that was the case at Dorothea Kipp Wierwille's funeral. Not really trying to keep the "did Craig show up?" plate spinning.... but I, as one of the sorta "old-timers" feel obligated to have come. As far as old timers go, I'm not even that old of an old timer. The feeling of obligation comes from what I call "a feeling of we." - At one time we at HQ were family and Mrs. was THE "mother." I lived it for a little while and I feel obligated to have been there when that family was the central thing. I'm sure Ted's position on it was, "I wouldn't have missed it for the world." I believe Craig would feel the same "family" obligation to have come to the funeral. Had he come, it would have been in that spirit - - family. Personally, I think it would have been GREAT if he did come, because on that day at that time... nothing else mattered . Hate Craig if you should, God knows Craig gave many people the right to do so. Nonetheless, from where I'm sitting, it is VERY possible that he DIDN'T show BECAUSE of what might have happened to take focus from Mrs., family, etc. by his presence. SO. It would have been a classy move had he shown up, in respect of "family" and also a classy move NOT to show up, in respect of "family." I'm not an LCM fan either... but life is about growth, isn't it?

Yeah Dana... I'd like to hear what you have to say on this too. :-) Don't pull any punches, we can take it! At least you know I can. Thanks for the complement Dave. Every now & then I squeeze off a decent thought.... Hey! Is it just me, or does it seem like some Christians are afraid of the concept of being afraid of God? To me its pretty darn simple. I'm afraid to fall off a roof, so when I go up on one, I'm veddy veddy careful near the edge.... The stinkin' roof doesn't HATE me cause I'm afraid. I don't think God hates us either. AND. I'm definately not BELIEVING to fall off. I'm afraid TO fall off. I like my body much better when its not broken, bruised or DEAD. Mr. Hamma. Don't race car drivers call the ruts they drive in "the groove?"

Hey Dana! Welcome to the Cafe! Yes, its me. your old friend from way back when, when I lived in New Knoxville. So good to "see" you! I'll drop you a line & we can catch up on stuff. Later; Howard

There are some, what I would call, "telling references" that God, Himself makes. That is IF one gets with the "God Breathed Word" concept. We're all familiar with one in particular. Something to the effect of, "Would a father, if his son asked him for bread, would he give hime a stone? ... Or if the son asked... would he give him a serpent?" I'm thinking that the guy who would give his hungry son a stone, or a serpent when the son came to him in need - - is somone to be feared.... as in PRIMARILY, in general... Yes. "Be afraid, be VERY afraid." I'm thinking that God was making a bottom line statement there as to how we should think of Him in general terms - - as an eternally LOVING father. NOT a figure of something to be feared. Doesn't the scenario referenced there speak to a most acute point in the relationship? When the obviously inferior, and specifically needy dependant one approaches his LORD. The FATHER meets the child's need, rather than BETRAY him with a non nourishing stone or betray the specifically dependant trust by giving the child something that would harm him. That is LOVE. That is How God wants us to view Him - - in general. HOWEVER. There are definite aspects of God which certainly are to be feared, as in BEYOND respect. (Perhaps as we mature with God the "fear" aspect ripens to a healthy, reverent respect.) My children are scared to death of me - - at certian times. Like when they are out of line and they know that I KNOW about it. At those times they are not so much afraid of ME, their Dad as they are afraid of what consequence for their actions I will bring down upon them. They still love me with all their hearts at that time too, as they have no doubt - no not one - that I LOVE THEM, even then. Even though they also know with the SAME lack of doubt that their loving Dad is about to bust loose the fires from DAD on their butt. I have learned much, at least I THINK I have, about how God loves us and how HE wants us to view Him by how much I love my children and how I want them to see ME. I want SOOOOO badly for them all to be ALL the BEST that they can be, ALL the time. At times, I allow them to endure, what for them seems to be, great and unendurable pain. I will also rain down the pain on any of them, benevolently, for their ultimate benefit. They surely don't see my punishment, especially at the time, as beneficial to them. Ultimately I make sure that they at least hear it from me that what they viewed as a horrible experience, I put them through it, hopefully to grow them and make them stronger, better, etc. When I do that it PAINS me, but I do it with confident expectations that "it will be good for them." My oldest son, gets into more trouble than any two of the others. Without fail, he will fall into my arms, hug me and tell me he loves me immediately after he's gone through even the worst and most intense "attitude adjustment" session. He's absolutely CONVINCED that I LOVE him. Then he gives his BEST effort to altering HIS behavior to avoid "the wrath of Dad" next time. I think that's what God wants for us. I think He wants us to be afraid of "getting wrong." I think He wants us to be afraid of what He will allow or bring down on us when WE rebel or "get wrong," with Him, doing things outside of what we should do. All the while we're in full confidence that He will not KILL or DESTROY us while he's "spanking our rear." While we're pulling out scriptures on the fear God concept... we should pull out the ones about tribulation and all of the good things that enduring it does for us. I was afraid of my Dad too. That fear inspired me to NEVER cross him. I made different, better decisions BECAUSE I was afraid of that man whom I knew loved me with everything he had. I think that fearing God in the same way inspires us to make better decisions regarding our "walk" with Him on this planet. "Count it all joy..." Ultimately, we'd better be afraid of going to hell in the SAME way we fear crossing a busy highway blindfolded. It is the wrath of GOD that fuels the eternal flames of hell, just as the same loving God would allow your body to be splattered like a bug on the front of a speeding semi-truck should we cross in front of it while it moved at 80mph. I have a healthy reverence and respect for moving semi trucks but I'm flat out scared to DEATH to step in front of one on the highway. All at the same time. That's just what I think. Or at least what I think I think.

Yeah danteh, I feel you on that one. Its too bad that "we" as in current believers who are out of TWI's control HAVEN'T taken up where we left off in TWI. Current history shows that "some are of Lynn, some are of Shroyer, Geer, etc., just as what happened in the first century. We've gone our separate ways. Some have said, "the hell with the whole "God thing" altogether. In reality it seems we're no different than the rest of the Christian church. There are people out there doing great things for God on one corner, others doing things for God on another. Problem is there doesn't seem to be any one leader all of the other leaders are willing to follow... How about we rally behind Pat, "just kill the bastard" Robertson and his angel-haired sidekick? I don't mean to disparage the 700 Club but I think a LOT of people see them that way. One thing VPW had going for him was the ability to make people believe and follow him. Maybe we've all been burned a little too crispy by the VP's, Robertsons, and others to EVER rally around a single charismatic leader of the entire church??? I don't know. For me the other side of the coin is that is seems like far too many guys run churches & ministries more because THEY want to be king than they desire to serve THE King. They seem to live like, "Yeah, I'll serve the King, as long as I get to be the "king server." YOU follw me and I'll tell you which way the King says WE should go. That's the basic business model for churches today in America. Personally, I think it turns off most of the best & brightest minds who have not been indoctrinated into the church as children. I think maybe they smell "something a little bit fishy" from their POV that "we" may feel is sweet smelling. There will be no real spiritual revival in this country until the church does a better job of meeting people's basic spiritual needs without a "bible behind their back." Jesus got people's attention by filling their bellys with lunch. After that he just started talking, saying things that really made sense to them. TWI, after getting people's attention, starting using us to feed their greed. Lost what value they had in the process. Was it a dream or a nightmare?

Interesting approach to this topic, Mark. Thanks for the thought provoking questions. I actually felt like I didn't have answers for them. Value? I'm feeling like the period from the America Awakes National tour in '76 through Sound Out '84 could be called the "golden years" of TWI. From '71 through 1975 things were "ramping up" one might say. After Sound Out, I don't remember any big national event that the ministry was focusing on. VPW's health took a turn south. POP hit in '86 and all hell broke loose, LITERALLY. The collective ministry focus on the big deal events, in a sense WAS The Way's ministry. Lots (maybe most) of the GREAT times centered around those events. The way I see it, building for those big events, built the ministry, it gave us goals and objectives more tangible than "Word Over The Word." After each event the ministry was bigger, more capable, etc. Of course, I'd love to relive those great times in my present reality of life. I'd love it if I could feel like my oldest who is in her first full week of college on the east coast could be in her first full week of in residence in The Way Corps too. That's where the problem begins, at least in my thinking. I can trust that there is a measure of integrity at Yale and that my daughter actually IS getting "the finest education money can buy" from some of the finest minds in anywhere in the world in their fields. The bad entered TWI (IMO) when "major leadership" forgot that they had "enough" of people's lives to make themselves personally rich and powerful... enough. TWI could have grown and become an institution. It seems the basic focus at the top leadership level was, or maybe became off kilter. Lost the integrity. I think it could be great if the TWI of "the golden years" were alive & well today. With today's communication technology and "yesterday's heart" TWI could be well on the way to "Word Over The World" by now and be filling in the gaps, so to speak. I think there was great value in the IDEA that was TWI. What I wish were around now is a truly home based, truly Christian organization that REALLY believes the Bible.... and acts accordingly. Then, I think the good would FAR outweigh the bad (which we will always have with us) our daily fellowship would be worth whatever hardships we faced along the way and there absolutely would be good to the place. I attend and do work for the ministry of a great church. There are a LOT of great churches, ministries in the US & world. Getting one church to work together with us on ANYTHING at all is worse than pulling teeth. Even within denominations pretty much every church has an "every church for himself" attitude. My church does THIS. Your church that. Godspeed brother, you do your thang, WE'll do ours. The non spoken thing is that "everbody" seem believe God is telling them to do what they do, so they DON'T wanna do an idea YOU might have.... To have a single-minded national group of people focused on building... whatever, like TWI used to be would be heavenly. At one time TWI could send a single message around the world, and have it confirmed as recieved - - accurately in less than 24 hours (remember Blue Alerts anyone? Green? Red? etc??) over the phone. We could mobilize our people in every major city in the country at the snap of a finger have people show up at pretty much any location in the country. What I wish, as far as TWI being around today would be.... Imagine. Twig Coordinator training in Indianapolis at the dome where the Colts play. Every TC gets a Varizon, or NextTel cellphone on the nationwide free calling plan ("IN," or whatever) TWI foots the bill for (say 1,000) minutes per mo. Training states that you pay for your minutes over the plan limit. Any believer who wanted, could purchase a phone and be part of the plan. How about a ministry that utilized the collective buying power of all of our tithes and ABS to buy a Family plan from a cell phone carrier. Imagine the discount! Unlimited text messaging, every service at levels from HQ, root (international), Limbs, maybe down to area, streamed live to the web. The archived by subject title. Custom cellphone or pocket PC browsers powered by bluetooth (or whatever proprietary communications protocol believers may have invented) that can can pick up and dial into live teachings happening all over the world in "every" language. TWI's website being a true internet portal with discussion forums like this one, topical chat rooms, an eBay type abundant sharing cyber-center where believers from all over the world could share of their abundance with those who need it. (I could get rid of some of the baby equipment in my basement!) This stuff would be available to every believer from any comuter in the world. Imagine document repositories with an indexed library of every WC research paper ever written available for download as a pdf. Post pictures from your local area meeting. How about a before & after shot of YOUR guy with a whithered arm that you ministered to & he got healed? Way Magazine on DVD! Electronic subsriptions. Get your way mag online OR in print. HQ staff would be near 5,000 by now and HQ would be like Microsoft's HQ. still keeping the quaint country charm. Working late? Put on your headphones or speaker phone and conference call to twig. Text message this week's cookine provider to get an extra bag of Chips Ahoy on the way over. The Safety Dept could have grown to include our own version of what we have here in Ohio.. Task force One. Imagine a group of believing believers, equipped with the finest and trained to hadle disaster relief like down in New Orleans area now. I believe TWI COULD have grown into that by now. Some people who came to TWI later 80's, 90's & beyond and even some who didn't get to HQ much never knew about was the cutting edge inventions, and things TWI staff did and were working on. We did work like a Biblical color - music harmony study where we related the music frequency lengths to wavelengths in light and charted color in relation to music notes. That allowed us to do paintings "in the key of an augumented c minor chord" if we wanted. Or whatever chord. Ambassador One was the first plane of its type in the world to get an engine upgrade to "Super Condor" allowing it to fly faster, higher and over longer distances. That plane could take off from New Knoxville and fly overseas. That auditorium was built to specs that would handle any stage show in production on broadway. When it was built it was said to be the best acoustical house anywhere between New York and Chicago. The plan was to bring traveling broadway shows to New Knoxville and give anyone in the area opportunities to see world class entertainment in their back yard. It has what at the time was "new" and state of the art cordless headphones and seven separate audio channels to do real time translations in up to seven languages simultaneously. You could sit anywhere in the aud. plop on the headphones nad hear whatever you were seeing translated into your language. One thing I think almost "nobody" knew about was the "Snow Way." It was some newfangled arctic cat kinda all terrain snow vehicle with tracks like a tank. They planned to use it at Gunnison for tours up in the mountains in winter. We had a group of inventors who would pray & believe God to just invent stuff! TWI's I.T. dept. built a software package we called "Wordworker, The Computerized New Testament" in 1979. We had people doing all kinds of stuff all over the country. ALL of that fizzled out when LCM took over and died altogether when POP hit the fan and was "buried" with the great exodus in 1989. How do I know TWI could have done all that stuff and even more? Well. Harve Platig was just a TWI staffer when I was there early 80's. He advanced to Vice President. Where would I have advanced to by now? What about others like LZ who was a senior person there back then? The talent in TWI was phenominal. Free thinking individuals with talent, brains and the spirit of God very much alive in them. There was value. There absolutely was some good to the place. If we could have just kept moving in the direction and growing at the rate we were going...It could have happened. Instead. You have Rosalie and co. lounging in her pool while WC servants dust, clean and bring them drinks. Unfortunately few people were exposed to what value there may have been.

When I came to HQ to work I was four months into my 21st year, just a kid a long way from home, not only in term of the miles. I was a young black kid from the big city moved to the farm. Imagine that. I thought the whole place stunk and was amazed that anyone would actually WANT to spread cow, pig and human excrement all over their yard! Mrs. went out of her way to make sure I felt at home and through that first year while I lived there she became like a surrogate Grandmother to me. Through the years I have nothing but fond memories of time spent with her. From times when she would come to the upper room to check on us guys living there awaiting our permanemt housing assignments; she made sure we were warm enough and had enough blankets and clean bedclothes. There were the times sitting on the back stoop of the Wierwille home talking about things & stuff while waiting for VP to come home, to time when she & Wanda W. provided cookies & ice cream for our apprentice WC twig that met in her basement, to times when she showed me her personal photo albums & told stories of the old days of the ministry, to the time when we, together told VPW, please don't wear that (hideous outfit), to her gracious hosting of numerous events, holiday parties, and meals, weddings, receiving guests at Saturday Night Doos, providing hot chocolate for us iceskating on the pond, and just plain ol' interaction in the hallway. To the beautiful gifts she gave for my wedding and then for the birth of my firstborn child (who BTW arrived this afternoon at New Haven, CT for her first day at college).... Through the years Mrs. has been a solid, consistent pillar of the church and simply one of the finest examples of a human being I've ever seen, met or even heard of. AND, to my personal benefit a friend of mine. Why didn't she leave TWI? In a very real sense she WAS TWI. Anyone who knows her, knows that. I never even considered that she would leave. You couldn't help but love her, as she was just plain ol' lovable. To say it saddens me that she's in her last days of life on the planet is an huge understatement. It would be so unGodly to judge a person by their mistakes or faults and in my opinion, a mistake to even point them out during a person's last days. Especially one of her stature. I know her reasonably well, and the love she showed me during those young adult years of my life contributed to who I am today. I for one, count myself blessed to have had the opportunity to know her. Several years after I had left TWI, I cashed on on some equity of being a the first lady personally and simply called the TWI switchboard and asked for her personal extension. They connected me, no question, and she answered the phone. I chatted with her for a few minutes and then asked if I could come visit her. She agreed and I drove right up to the Wierwille home, went to the back door and we sat on the side porch and had a nice visit. We had coffee and cookies, just like about 15 years prior when I first came to HQ. So much had changed in the ministry, yet nothing was different about her and our relationship. I just caught her up with the events of my life since we'd last spoken and talked to her aobut some personal, mentoring type things that you'd talk to your grandmother about. Both of my own parents are awaiting the return and were at the time. Mrs. talked to me about some things I wanted to have talked to my mother about, were she still alive. Mrs. W. treated me like I was her own son. She told me that the ministry would welcome me back and that her door was always open to me and mine. I graciously declined to come back to TWI but told her I would always consider coming to visit her from time to time and would maybe bring my kids by the next time. Acknowledging Mrs. Wierwille for the qualities she has and the love and affection she inspired in others is not empty hero worship. She was and is a heroin to her family and all who had the joy and privilege to know her, please do not allow whatever bitterness, no matter how well deserved it may be towards TWI as a whole to cast dispersions on this great lady. She was in a position more difficult that any of ours. It was realtively easy for me to walk away from TWI the day they fired me and then again the day I visited Mrs. on the porch. Please, lets not disrespect her with some of the normal point/counterpoint discussions native to the cafe. Mrs. VPW is, was and always will be the best thing that ever happened to TWI. Her life alone stands as a tribute to the fact that life is more complex than we sometimes think. Getting to know her was a good thing for my life. For me, I will never forget her, I cannot dismiss my time with TWI as "bad" or a waste, if for no other reason than friendship with The First Lady. What a fitting title.

... OR : "8-Ball Hookers, Towing & Service." hmmm... towing & service... well, they say sex sells!

... you could go with something more abstract like: 8 Ball Towing & Service Use a big 8-ball for a service mark/logo and run the words "towing & service" around the perimeter of the ball. Service at the top Towing at the bottom. An 8-ball already is a very recognizable induring, classic image that will stick in people's minds at a glance. I say put "towing at the bootm because then it would read 8-ball towing.... I even know a designer who could pull it off for you at his special GS Cafe friend rate. Later gang.

Ok. I think my fondest memories from ROA were during ROA setup at the end of our first year in residence with the 11th WC. We were the biggest and arguably the rowdiest WC group to date. Really hard to control, always getting in trouble, breaking the rules & stuff like that. They made the mistake of telling us that if we actually finished ROA setup on time, we'd get to have some free time before the Rock - we'd even get to leave ground & go wherever we wanted. They probable figured we'd get done & get to go to town for a movie, or something. We hit setup like a swarm of wasps and did it in record time, like two days early! We had SOO much fun! Like... They put us jocks on main tent set-up. We worked with the guys from the tent company who handled all of those bigh bull ropes with no gloves. We had a blast almost dropping those big poles & stuff. They kept slipping and were hard tograp with gloves. A funny thing was when some body asked the tent guys, "Hey, how can you handle those ropes without getting your hands all torn up?" Tent guy said, "You pee on dem. Gooo ahead you should try eet. It weeel make you hands vedddy veddy tough." Our eyes bugged out and some voice comes out from the back of the group. "I guess we'll just be wearin' gloves then....and drop the poles." We cracked up! Back to work. :)-->

Learning things like that from people you'd never ever have had the opportunity to meet and get to know. To me, and I repeat, I'm speaking personally, to me made my time in TWI "worth it." I worked long & hard every year on ROA. It warms my soul to hear so many fond memories. Johnny, I didn't know of Andre Zakompani having passed away... How? When? He & Roger Lutambi were good friends. I got to know them the year they came to HQ to learn enough English to go through the WC the next year. Seeing them get their WC diplomas was a highlight of life for me. They are really impressive guys. This may be a little bit of a derail, it may loosly qualify for this thread as it is a memory though. Roger & Andre told this hilarious story about how they had to sell a huge 1,000lb pig at the market in town to pay for their plane tickets to come to the US. They told how they had to first get the pig, "annd deece peeg was BEEG!" onto the bus, which was always packed with people anyways. It was really hot, over 100 degrees. They finally got the pig on the bus. The pig didn't smell very good, people were complaining....Then the bus had some mechanical trouble. Then they had to get the pig off the bus onto another one. They finally got that done with the help of all these people pushing the pig off & then onto the next bus. Then when they FINALLY got the pig to the market, off the bus, they were heading for the place to sell the pig and "de peeg fell over and DIED!" There they were in the hot sun, all the way into town at the market with a huge, dead pig that nobody could lift. If memory serves you either couldn't sell the pig dead, or you wouldn't get much money for it, either way, they couldn't get the pig to the place anyways, because it was DEAD.... as in NOT breathing, eyes glazed over ... dead! They freaked out a little then decided they had come tooo far to be stopped now. They prayed for the pig and RAISED it from the dead! Then they walked the pig over to the shop and sold it. They had us rolling in the isles dying with laughter telling us that... a fond memory of good friends. I'm happy to be able to take things like that from my time in TWI. :)-->

For the most part I had a great time in the Corps. Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems like things got pervasively bad like in the late 80's and wors in the 90's. I remember hearing about the huge mud battle Johnny Lingo talked about while they dredged the pond, made it deeper and put sand on the bottom. Prior to that I wouldn't get in it unless it was frozen to skate on it. I was grossed out by the mud between my toes (city boy that I am). Personally I looked at the individuals who caused my diffcult times, more than the program itself. I use the experiences, the discipline (I'm one of the ones who got 100+ percent of my aerobic points), the public speaking skills, etc. Overall the experience was good for me. I took more from it that it did from me. I was also in the best physical shape of my life then. Prior to that I had never run more than a mile, even though I'd been a decent athlete in high school. In that first in-residence year I got to where running five miles at a strect was "nothing." The furthest I ran was 14 miles at a 7:30 pace and was able to do one mile in a little over 6 minutes. I was very proud of that along with the B from Greek class; I still use the greek today. However it really pains me that the experiences people lived were so divergent. So many people were so hurt. I went in with high ideals too, I thought the concept of being as committed to God and disciplined as the Marine Corps for God was awesome. I really feel that the failure of TWC can and should be laid at LCM's feet. I see it in my mind as "revenge of the jock." He was such a wannabe, never content with the talent he did have. Which actually, he's a talented guy. I saw him do some pretty awesome and inspiring things... a LOOOOONG time ago. Power Corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Thanks WB! ANd Yes, Mr. Hamma, I am quite proud of the fact that they kicked me out of the WC, especially in light of my whole experience. I always knew I had the respectm admiration and love of my WC brothers & sisters. I did mentor "my" younger Corps groups, "in my own image" so to speak. I'm even more proud of the fact that I was among the very first TWI staff members fired from staff in the wake of the POP stuff. As far as I know, the got rid of John Lynn, a guy named Sal Scheccitano (sp?) then me. Regardless of what one may feel about JAL (I didn't always have the "best" experiences with him either...) He was "insubordinate" to the prevailing wind of TWI then. He refused to bend to their will, they fired him. Sal actually confronted Rosalie R. to her face, officially with open Bible and showed her directly how SHE was "off the Word" with policies she'd instituted and decisions she'd made. She fired him on the spot. John Linder and other armed TWI officers escorted him off the grounds immediately - - didn't even allow him to tell his wife who was working right down the hall. I, was given no reason for the termination, same as JAL, but I had Kinda recently refused to go to Corps night. I had a family at home, 3 kids a wife & a dog. They were playing tapes of VPW teaching the same stuff I had sat through LIVE while I was in residence. When confronted on why I wasn't going to Corps night. I asked, "How do you know that? Why do you CARE?" The confronting nazi responded with something about how I as a WC Grad and elder staff member should be setting a good example for the in residence Corps. I responded with something to the effect of, "How's this? I as a WC Grad, HUSBAND and FATHER, by staying home can use Corps night to teach my WIFE and children the same stuff I was taught in residence. AND I can fulfill my promise to GOD, not to mention VP, to study the things I was taught and MAKE THEM MY OWN! What better day is there to do that, as a WC grad, than CORPS Night!" The Nazi didn't like that. It wasn't too long after that that I got the boot. So yes. I'm proud to have been fired, and kicked out of their association. They did me a favor. It probably would have been a few more years until I finally gave up and left on my own. I was pretty committed to trying to "turn things around." I must admit I was also more than a little bit ignorant of what was really going on all aorund the country. When I came to HQ I was barely 21 and still had the high school type thinking that "everywhere" was pretty much like where I was from. I thought that the WC thatI had interacted with for a few years before coming to HQ were like "everybody else." When I saw some bad stuff, I saw it as an anomalie. I didn't know how pervasive it was. After being out of TWI I soon noticed that the everyday stress level I was living under there was tremendous. It even cause physical issues in my body. I used to get these "razor" bumps on my face so badly that it looked like I had a beard even after I shaved. Now that's gone. As is the excessive stress. Here's what's interesting. When I was working there I didn't even know how much stress I was under until after I left it. AND. After and during the stress of TWO horrible divorces, all of the pain and loss involved, loss of job, etc. My face has continued to clear up to the point where now, I don't have any razor bunmps at all. My skin has all cleared and there is no discoloration at all. Imagine that. My point is... THE STRESS LEVEL I EXPEREINCED JUST LIVING IN THE TWI ENVIRONMENT, BYT TRYING TO DO "RIGHT" WITHIN IT WAS FAR WORSE THAN ANYTHING ELSE I'VE EXPERIENCED. I've experienced a lot. Oh yeah. I'm GLAD to be out.

Congrats Raf! Be sure to let us know how it goes. I'm sure you'll be a positive influence in that capacity. Later dude.

Yes. There are WC who still care about people, etc. I'm WC. 11th to be exact. I care. They threw me out of the WC. What does that tell you about the ones left? Please keep in mind, or was it just not common knowledge that in one fail swoop, I think it was 1988, or maybe '89 that about 75% of all of the WC grads at the time voluntarily left TWI because LCM demanded our specific allegence to HIM. He sent a letter to the entire WC "household" (for lack of a better word) saying that if we didn't agree to stand w/Him and the BOT that we'd be "dropped" from the Corps. I think the number was 75% said NO. We won't stand with YOU, in a lot of different ways. I'm thinking the majority remnant of WC that stayed were "all of the above" in all the negative complaint we've seen & heard of WC. Gave the rest of us a REALLY bad name. A minority of WC people stayed in thinking they could stand in the gap, be a force for good in all the crap that was going down, etc. There was a time in TWI history when The Way Corps actually did exemplify the ideals the literature speaks of. I got to know or become acquainted with just about all of the people in the first 5 Corps groups through my being on staff @ HQ when they came back for an additional year of in-residency. I don't know how public it was that the single digit WC groups were all invited to come back to HQ for an additional in residence year. A LOT of them did. They were in residence @ HQ with the 8th, 9th, 10th, & 11th and some of them rubbed off good stuff on a lot of the later year single digit Corps. My opinion of those first four groups was that I admired them and wanted to be like most of them. By and large they were a great group of people. How many of the later groups, especially us double digit number groups were humble enough to come BACK into residence for an additional year of training - - at our own expense both in terms of time and $$$.??? How many WC do you know who would have graciously come back for MORE training? That would require admitting to one's self that, "No, I DON't know it all." TWI also used to actually bring in some top people to teach WC seminars & classes from OUTSIDE twi. We got to observe and be taught Dale Carnegie stuff by some of the tip top people in the Carnegie organization. Bob Richards, the Olympic Champion guy from the Wheaties box, himself came and taught some public speaking stuff to us, the 11th and 13th. As LCM rose to power in TWI, stuff like that faded away (surprise!) TWI became full of itself. "We" strted thinking our people could teach just as well as the champions who taught them. Is it any wonder people's heads became swollen? Not that I'm excusing them, but facts are facts. I can confidently say that, at least for the first 11 years of TWC we were taught enough Bible and exposed to enough "good stuff" to have become great leaders for God. Regardless of all of the other crap that was going on. IMO, your level of service to people was determined by what you focused on. Not that I now, in retrospect agree with all of the training tactics they employed. Buy I'm a veteran of a high school athletics program that by todays standards would get all of the coaches jailed for child abuse. We won more than our fair share of games though. I think some of it was a matter of perspective. If you felt they were "being Jerks" by getting us up way to early and putting us through calestentics on the circle drive. You might act "jerky" or become a jerk in return. I came from a twig where we literally had to save one of our people from a coven of witches who were going to kill her for a human sacrifice. No kidding. We also had a girl snatched by deprogrammers. We were up all night on both issues. Getting awakened by parishioners in trouble is "par for the pastoral course." I didn't have a problem with stuff like that even thought I hated it at the time. I'm just speculating that in the later years, especially, of WC training people responded to the training differently. In the earlier years there were more "great people" among the groups and in the WC leadership. We helped keep other folk in line, helped people maintain perspective. After we were gone - - it seems all hell broke loose and they were basically training folk to be @ssH*les. Just a little bit from my perspective... just some thoughts.

Interesting how perspectives differ, isn't it. I love what you said rascal. What I saw in it is how you and your hubby have been blessed by proactively deciding to own and do your responsibilities. In this context as parents. I was thinking as I read your last post, "Isn't that what parenting is about? Really cool stuff. I've felt the same as the funster too. Maybe I'm too picky, maybe I'm too independant, maybe I'm just not willing to "lose myself" in a relationship with a woman? Etc. I've thought about the spotlight, angels singing in chorus, etc. But unfortunately and to my chagrin, its different for men in our society. By definition we lose less and gain a wife who gives up to join our life. I don't want to do that to a woman. I want to be able to come to some willing compromise. I want a woman whom I would thing is worth whatever I have to give to be with her - - therefore I work to make myself worth whatever, so she would want to be with me. I also would want someone, who on her own, without me is was willing as I to work to make US work. I'd want to be an US that is more and better than "you & me." Unfortunately most folks don't achieve that. I haven't - - in two marriages. Nearing that 50 mark. There is something about 50 that makes me feel that in at least some ways life should "level" out and be heading "down hill." Not in terms of health but in terms of the striving, strife type stuff. So I think its easy to justify and jettison a lot of stuff to get there. Could it be that what you jettison has a direct link to the individuals, character? The mere mention of leaving children "stranded" during their formative adulthood years rakes me over the coals. I had "home" to come home to for many many years after leaving the nest. My oldest leaves for college in a matter of weeks. I couldn't imagine not being "home" for her. I see my six years of college like an apprenticeship for adulthood and plan on managing my daughter's as such. Interesting stuff, keep postin folks. I for one am diggin it.

I haven't had much time to read the entire thread... so forgive me if I'm rehashing something already mentioned. While I was married, when we were in the "happliy" stage, there were times when I felt like, "If it weren't for the kids and the sex, what would we do? What would we talk about?" That was scary. At the time I felt that it was a "normal" wake-up call that adjustments needed to be made in order to keep us together successfully, especially in the later years when the kids grew up , needed us less and then left. The scariest part of the thought was that "Perhaps there ISN'T a real connection between us at all!" I'm thinking that my own growth and maturity has me, at age 47, finally coming into my own. I'm thinking now that I have enough life experience, survived enough crap that I really don't give two shakes about some of the things that were kinda scary to me as a younger person. I'm becoming more and more committed to myself, not in a bad or egotistical way. I'm just far les willing to "bend over" or step back, or sit still and allow life to run me over. Extremely less committed to living n a situation I know I really don't like. Much more committed to living a life I find more personally satisfying, especially when it comes to matters I can control. Admittedly, I've never lived the life that our society oppresses upon women. BUT. It just makes very clear sense to me that a woman around my age might be having the same late 40's cathartic thoughs I am. I can see a woman reaching 50 and saying, "Hey buddy, you just don't cut it." to hubby. If he doesn't step up, she's outta there, no real harm intended. I'm not an advocate for divorce, but I think I can see where women may be coming from according to the original question of the thread. Peace.