E. W. Bullinger

Dear Fellow Greasespotters: Does anyone remember the “unproductive evil” teachings from '93 to'94? I think it looked at the differences of a few Greek words for “evil”. If memory serves me right one word was porneos and the other kakos. Sincerely, E. W. Bullinger

Dear Fellow Greasespotters: I was wondering what reasons people were given for being Marked and Avoided. So I have done this little poll to see what they were told was their “sin”. Please feel free to elaborate or any personal stories. E. W. Bullinger 1). You were in debt. 2). Someone had a “genuine spiritual suspicion’ that you were homosexual. 3) Leadership said you had a chronic weakness in your life. 4). You turned down opportunities to be in a greater leadership capacity. 5). You verbally challenged leadership.

Thanks for all of your input. I guess I was fortunate with regard to the leadership in my area. It seemed that things were good until the mid 1990’s when all of the crazy rules started to come into play. I remember there was a girl in my twig who wanted to take an adult education cake decorating class and she had to get permission from the Limb coordinator! The rules about reading the bible and witnessing never bothered me because I always thought that these were things that you were supposed to do as a Christian. Sincerely, e. w. bullinger

Dear Fellow Greasepotters: When did The Way get extremely legalistic? I remember when I first started attending fellowship it was a joy because we were taught freedom in Christ. Yet in the mid 1990’s you could not go to the grocery store alone because of the 2 by 2 rule. When did this legalism first start? E. W. Bullinger

Dear Mother of 2: Your starting this thread has got me to think a lot about the deliverance I have seen in people’s lives. I agree with Potato. Your thinking behind why God heals some people and not others for His glory is a bit difficult to follow. I have to tell you that while I do think that there are some scriptural problems with they Way’s doctrine of believing, your explanation that God sometimes “lets the chips fall where they may” seems to be a rehashing of a pagan Greek mythology. The ancient Greeks explained the randomness that they saw in life with the Fates. These were three spinners with one who made the thread, the second wove it and the third cut it with her shears. So if you had a child with a deformity it was because the spinner made the tread of their life that way. If someone seemed to catch a lot of breaks in life it was because the weaver made the fabric of your life that way. Lastly if someone died prematurely it was because the scissors of last Fate cut your life short. You could pray to these gals, but they rarely changed their minds about your lot in life. So perhaps Mother of 2 I did not understand your explanation. Could you please give try to explain it again. I can not ask the people that I go to church with this question. They already think that I have a lot of crackpot theories and to bring this up would open another can of worms. Sincerely, E. W. Bullinger

Dear Mother of 2: It is nice to meet you here at the café. My memories of teachings about healing in the Way was that it was God who was responsible for all healing. They taught that was God who put in our bodies it’s ability to heal itself. So if you went to someone for prayer or to a doctor it was still God who got the glory for your healing. I will admit I knew people who felt like they were second rate believers because they had to go to a doctor for a physical problems. However I have been an eyewitness to many people’s miraculous healings. I left the Way 10 years ago and have been to several churches. I have yet to see the healing that I saw in the 70’s and 80’s. It is kind of funny, as the Way got more legalistic in the 90’s it seemed that fewer people got delivered from physical problems. E. W. Bullinger P. S. I am not just talking about people who were healed from a cold or a headache. I have known people who had physical deformity or disability and were delivered at Way functions.

Dear Patric and Sarah: You certainly seem to have started no small stir here at the café! First let me welcome you. It is always great to meet another former Wayfer here at the Greasespot. I agree with you in your posting that the Way was wonderful in the 70’s and 80’s. I have so many fond memories from that time period. However in the mid 90’s things started to get very legalistic and unpleasant. People did not have as much joy manifested in their lives and it seemed that healing and deliverance was a thing of the past. And then the Marking and Avoiding began. In one two week period my twig coordinator was M&A, then the twig area coordinator and his wife, than more than one third of the believers in the branch and then the Limb coordinator was gone! I have since learned that while my experiences were wonderful from that early time period, others were terribly used and abused; physically, mentally and spiritually. So while it might be nice to reminisce with others here about how you were blessed please remember that some people here are still healing from their Way experiences. To the best of my knowledge things are still very legalistic at New Knoxville with very little of the love of God that was the hallmark of the early Way. This breaks my heart because I can remember when the love of God was so real at fellowship it was something that you could almost taste or feel. I have since belonged to two churches and while the people there were very nice, it was not like it was in the Way. I certainly have not seen the spiritual growth or the healing that I saw twig. It is all so very, very sad. E. W. Bullinger

Dear Nandon: The reason that they said that Bullinger did not believe in the trinity was that as he got older in his writings he appears to contradict himself with regard to some scriptures about who is God. Loy boy said that this was because he was on the verge of embracing Unitarianism. A good friend of mine who has deeply studied Bullinger believes that E. W. B. was tired of all the controversy his writings caused in the church. As he got older his health declined and he did not publish anything on this topic because he did not have the energy to defend his position. It sounds quite plausible to me. I am a huge Luther fan and I have not read or seen anything that he believed in Unitarianism. E. W. Bullinger

I can remember when I went WOW (as the anniversary wave of the last year of the program) we were told "to keep it in our pants" by old Loy boy himself. E. W. Bullinger

Dear Café: It was great to read everyone’s comments. I had no idea that LCM had such a fetish with office supplies! The only thing that made me sad was that as the legalism increased it seemed that the love and caring decreased. This is such a shame because the love was very real. At the present I am still looking for a church where the caring and sense of community is a palpable as it was in the Way. Thanks for your thoughts….. Sincerely, E. W. Bullinger

Dear Pink Lady: I understand that you just left the Way. Is it still as legalistic as it was in the 90’s? If things are different what did they say for their explanation of why they changed? Dear Ron: To have to ask Loy boy for permission to pray over your son……that does take the legalistic cake! I wonder if my friend Ellen learned how to make ‘legalistic cake’ in her cake class? Dear Trust and Obey: Our area was small (three twigs) so you had to tell everyone everything. Also we were top heavy with Corp grads. Each Corp ran a twig. Dear ChasUFarley: How did you “pay” for going to the school reunion alone? Dear Twinky: Ellen always used to bring along the fruits of her labor to the Believers. When it was her turn to bring refreshments for a class or meeting there were always high expectations for what she would bring. Your story about Rev Thomas was very sad. Following the loss of his daughter is when he MOST needed the love of the household. Dear Lori: I hope the ‘quality’ of your life has improved since you left! Were things still legalistic in 2004? Dear Bramble: You hit the nail on the head. When you said that you were too tired to think about those days. I laughed so hard after I read your comment. That this whole situation could occur is what amazes me. What does this say about what the Way believed about God? That you can’t be under His protection if your travel alone? Also many of their rules flied in the face of logic. Lets look at the cake example. I bet Ellen could have met many more people who would be more receptive to speak with her because they shared a common interest. That is always more successful that witnessing door-to-door or at wondermall. Sincerely, E. W. Bullinger

Dear Greasespot: I sometimes wonder why I stayed with the Way after it got so legalistic in the 1990’s. So in light of this I thought it might be interesting if we could share legalism stories. Here is one that makes me sad just to remember it: In 1995 fellowship started to become a real drag. There were twig meetings held three times a week plus a mandatory witnessing night. If you did not show up for one activity you were called on the carpet and your commitment to God was questioned. However, I remembered past deliverance in my life so I faithfully attended twig. In our fellowship was a tender-hearted woman named Ellen who was an excellent cook. She could make the most flavorful and wholesome meals from virtually nothing. In ministry parlance she had a “longsuit” in the domestic arts. A local high school was offering an eight week evening class in cake decorating that she wanted to attend. She discovered that it was held on a night without a twig or witnessing commitment so she asked the coordinator if she could take the class. He asked her why she wanted this class. She said she loved cooking and it would be her pleasure to make birthday, anniversary and class cakes for the Believers. The coordinator was not sure if he could grant this request so he asked up the way tree. It seems that this was such a big decision that the limb coordinator had to make the final judgment. So after all of this discussion she was allowed to take the class. However there was trouble right around the corner. It seems that the teacher of the class had a friend who had baked the first president Bush’s inauguration cake and she was coming to town to teach a master class of how she did it. This was literally a unique event; she was going to discuss how to bake a cake for thousands of guests in borrowed facilities with the Secret Service looking over your shoulder. There were also special considerations of the cake itself. The first Bush had made his “thousand points of light” speech and this cake was to have one thousand electric lights in it. She had to invent a special icing that would not melt from the heat given off by the lights and the cake had an ingenious wiring system so that it could be served easily. This gifted baker was going to give a master class for one night only and the teacher of the high school class had managed to get an invitation for all her beginning students to attend. This event was so highly anticipated that pastry chefs were vying for a seat in this class. The only problem is that this event fell on twig witnessing night. As soon as Ellen found out about the schedule conflict she asked for permission to attend this class. She promised that she would witness to everyone that she met and that this would be a great opportunity for outreach. However leadership was wary, as they demanded that she bring another Believer so she could go two-by-two. However the class was full and it was audacious to ask for exception especially since she was a beginning student in a master class. She was persuasive and was reluctantly given permission by leadership to attend. However this came to bite her in the foot. A few months later when about one third of our twig area was Marked and Avoided she was in that group. I never learned the reason that she was M & A, but I have a sneaky suspicion that this was why she got the boot. E. W. Bullinger P. S. What irked me about this situation is that was based on crazy Loy boy’s ideas of commitment. I remember how in the old days it was expected that if you had an outside interest God would bless it. I am thinking about Pro 18:16 where a man’s gift makes room for him. I am convinced that this was an example of God blessing her life and the legalistic ministry stepped on her heart.

Dear Greg: I think I recognize you by your writing style. Were you a WOW in Charleston, West Virginia? Sincerely, e. w. bullinger

Dear Carl: E. W. Bullinger was born 1837 so he would not quite be 200 years old. Your story about the ectoplasmic TV was quite interesting. By the way, welcome to the Greasespot Cafe. E. W. Bullinger

I came from a family that was deeply involved in spiritualism and the book “The Challenging Counterfeit” explained many things in a clear, biblical and dispassionate manner. In fact I stuck with the Way in spite of increasing legalism because I felt so thankful for them giving me clear answers to this topic. I think the main beef that many have with the book is it’s discussion of physical mediumship. You have to realize that most spiritualists are mental mediums. They do not have physical phenomena (levitation, ectoplasm or teleportation) in seances or when they go into a trance. In all the seances I have been I have never seen any physical phenomena, yet I knew the mediums were tapped into a spiritual power. I currently belong to a conservative mainline denomination and I feel uncomfortable telling people about my past. Not because I am ashamed of my former activities, but because people just do not believe there is real spiritualism. E. W. Bullinger

Dear J Witt: Welcome to the GreaseSpot café! It is always great to meet someone new. I read with much interest your recent predicament at church. I had a similar problem after I was marked and avoided from the Way. I still believed most of the doctrine from twig, but I knew I needed the fellowship of other Christians. So after some shopping around I ended up in a Presbyterian church. I find it interesting that the trinity was the issue that caused a problem. At my church everyone says they believe that doctrine, but no one seems to talk about it. My problem is predestination. Fellow churchgoers seem to discuss it incessantly. However because I am known as “free will Johnny” they seem to explain my beliefs as a lack of spiritual maturity on my part. So what I do is to play along and do my own study of the bible. I rejoice when the pastor teaches from the scriptures and despair when I talk to church friends who are not sure that they are saved. So I suggest that you decide how good is the fellowship at that church? If it is tight and warm and encouraging you to grow spiritually then you might want to not tell all that you know (isn’t that one of the keys to walking in the spirit?). However I doubt that you have anything to worry about. Most churches will bend over backwards to accommodate thoughtful, believing and loving Christian families. So how did your meeting go with the pastor and the youth leader? E. W. Bullinger

What a great topic! I always thought that this site was a tad negative so it is wonderful to see our time in “The Minstry” in a positive light. I learned a whole lot of useful things from my sojourn at The Way. Here is a list not in any particular order: Overcame a deep involvement with spiritualism Learned how to read the bible for myself How to love myself and accept love from others Saw God bring wonderful things to pass in my and other’s lives Met some really great people (who I miss to this day) Got over my fear of public speaking Learned the difference from being religious and living in a godly manner Saw in a practical way how to bless others Learned some skills that I would have never picked up elsewhere: Sign language Hunting How to effectively witness Roofing and other household construction tasks To be quite honest with you a part of me does pine for the days of long ago when the fellowship was sweet and God was a very real part of my life. However the last year I was “in” the micro-management of my life by leadership was overbearing. I think the only reason I stayed was because I remembered all of the wonderful things of the previous years.

Dear Exie: How are you doing? I used to live near a graveyard. I think the teaching was that Jesus did not lodge near city cemeteries. Is my memory right? E W Bullinger

I make home-made macaroni and cheese. It is a sure fire crowd pleaser. EWB

Dear Hope R: What a great topic for a thread! I was in TWI I, II and III. Here are a few of my observations: In TWI I it seemed commonplace to see signs, miracles and wonders in people's lives. Things were very uncomplicated especially for the regular Believers. I heard stories about how the Illuminati were trying to take over the world and there were whispers of a time when Believers were asked to stockpile food. My only concern was that a few people worshiped the ground that VPW walked on. I just assumed that they were thankful to him for deliverance in their lives. I was at the 1982 instillation of LCM and everything looked fine. There were lots of new people at fellowship and many were claiming deliverance in their lives. During the "fog years" I moved to a new state. It was far from Ohio and leadership worked hard keep people focused on the bible and not rumors of wrongdoing. When POP happened I took a trip to Gartmore and I was not impressed by CG. After the loyalty letter a lot of experienced leadership left and most of the new limb coordinators looked like scared little kids. However in our area there were a lot of active twigs. There was not much outreach, but the fellowship was sweet. As LCM came out of his shell I applauded this development. People were getting excited again. At about 92 I noticed that there were a lot of directives from Ohio and leadership started demanding more of people. Instead of leading by example people were bullied into participation. A lot of the heart seemed missing and the bar was slowly raised. By 94 the homo and debt doctrines took on a life of their own. People were selling homes and then renting a new dwelling at a higher cost than their previous mortgage. The level of commitment was getting insane. Our limb coordinator had continuous witnessing in our state while they were filming WAP. For some reason our twig always got the 2:00AM to 4:00Am time slot. This was sometimes on week nights! Do you know how hard it is to find legitimate places to witness at 3:00AM? I felt sorry for the parents with young children. Then the micro-management of our lives started. It was unbearable. One gal had to ask permission to take a cake decorating class on a non twig night. One corp person was dropped from active corp because she needed to lose some weight. Corp were asked to get rid of long loved family pets because of the "pet policy". It seemed so arbitrary. Do you know that old folk tale that if you try to put frogs in a pot of scalding water they will immediately jump out? However if you put them in a pot of cold water and slowly heat it they will remain in the caldron. I think this is the reason that I did not leave sooner. The changes came so slowly (at least in our area) that I did not see how stifling they were. With perfect 20/20 hindsight I should have left when they were filming WAP. EWB

Dear Oakspear: Now I realize where I got that idea: a few months ago Mike was courting you to be his disciple. Now I understand that you were playing devil's advocate. Dear Skeptical Texan: When I read your post I started to laugh out loud becuase you hit the nail right on the head. You wrote: "On doctrine, you're gonna find it hard to get around the Trinity issue if you're still a monotheist (I know, I know) and want to go to a church that believes that Jesus is the Son of God. I've developed a shaky rationalization for worshipping with Trinitarians that I know would be hard to explain and defend." When I went to monotheist churches they seemed so strange. The Jehova Witness' were full of pharasic regulation and the Uniteraians where having a seminar on how get a familure spirit for contacting the "other world". Besides most church folks don't really believe in the trinity so I consider it a less important issue. Dear Man of 1,000 names: The first reason I am asking this question here is not for validation of my decision. I was geuninly curious as to see the thinking behind how people made their choices. The second reason is that because we are all from The Way we have the bond of a shared experience. So I am more interested in answers from people at Greasespot than I am from other sources. Lastly it is my opinion that the reason that the Way was a blessing for many of us (at one time) was because it was based on The Living God. Perhaps leadership may not have been well trained or out to serve less than godly interests, but it was God who blessed individual people. My desire to find a church is based on what I know I need for my life. Dear Out of a Fog: Do you really live in Mayberry RFD? In your four paragraph post you say three times that you do not want to be controlled by an organization. One thing that I learned from my Way experience is that we give control of our lives to others. I hope that I am now a better judge of people and organizations than I was a few years ago. Dear templelady: The trinity does not really make sense. Are the Mormons monotheisistic? EWB

Dear Abigail: Did you ever read the series of books by Chaim Potak? I think the first one was called "The Chosen" which was later made into a movie. This author explains the beauty of the ancient rabbinic writings and how the orthodox community interprets them. Dear Jen-O: There was an old commercial that it's tag line was "only her hairdresser knows for sure".I enjoy hearing stories how we hear the voice of God from ordinary people. It sounds like you had a lot of fun going to those churches. You know one thing that drew me to the Way was the fun that the Believers had in their lives. Dear Imbus: I am glad that you found a church that you like. One of my opportunities is to decide what to keep and what to discard from my "Waybrain". Dear Cynic: Say it ain't so! I don't think that you are "a nasty Calvinist SOB". To answer your question I have attended regularly for three years. Here is a story that you will find funny. At one of my first bible studies we were reading some scripture and I displayed my "free will" leanings. A guy came up to me afterwards and said "You must be Armenian!" to which I replied "No, I am half Polish and half Ukrainian". The joke was that he was referring to Josef Armenius and I thought he was talking ethnic heritage. I still lean more to free will than predestination, but they do like me at the church. Dear Mark: Thanks for your well thought out post. Before I started regularly attending church I too made a list of what I could live with and what was not negotiable. Trinitarian beliefs do not bother me that much. However coming from a spiritualist background I declined any group that leaned in that direction. This is my main beef with roman catholicism. Because they believe that you can pray to Mary or the saints it is only a small leap to talk to the dead. In fact I blame this doctrine with my family's interest with seances and Edger Casey. My mother's side of the family was deeply steeped in that stuff and at the same time they regularly attended mass. However I was glad to hear that your daughter was able to get a good education. I do have several catholic friends who are blessed by their church, but it is not for me. Dear Oakspear: Your answer surprised me. When I read your posts I got the idea that you held on to a lot of Way teaching. I guess that I was wrong. I am right now reading a great book about Irish/Celtic music. At times it touches the subject of the older pagan calender and religon. I think that this is one reason for it's current popularity. Dear Daizbro: I think you misread my first post. I do not assume that everyone goes to church. In my area I would say that 1/3 of former Wayfers never do anything with an organized religion again. Now to answer your question: after I was M/A I wanted to get back. I waited the prescribed six month period and then contacted my limb coordinator. To my surprise my old LC was M/A a week after me. I had jumped through all of the hoops so I was invited back, but was told that any future problems would mean being turned over to the devil. At that point I decided not to return. It all seemed so hard-hearted. I did not go to any church for about 2 years after that. Then I went from place to place for about a year, but nothing seemed that interesting. Then I met a gal and on our first date she said how excited she was about a certain presbyterian church. The relationship with her fizzled out, but I stayed at the church. EWB

Dear Everyone: After reading my first post again I see that I did not really ask my question correctly. My intention was to ask about the thought processes of how people chose their present church. Fortunately almost everyone gave me helpful answers to my not accurately worded question. Thanks for all of your posts! EWB Dear Dmiller: I too think that I would be happiest in an "offshoot", but like you I am hours from the closest fellowship. I really do miss the feelings of comradery that I felt in the Way. Dear Ex10: What an interesting group of churches that you have rubbed shoulders with! I am an [amateur] musician (like your husband). However this church that I go to almost exclusively plays classical music at services. After three years of attending I can differentiate between Bach/Beethoven/Handel/Hayden/Palestina/Purcell. P.S. thanks for the heads up about Groucho. Dear Wrestle Not: Thanks for the scripture quote. One reason I started going to churches was because I knew that I needed fellowship with other Believers. Dear Abigail: Interesting insight about the synagogue. My family wants me to go back to Roman catholic church, but I find all of the extra biblical tradition to be distracting. I expect that you would be learning a lot of great old testament stuff. Our minister just finished a three year sermon series based on the book of Exodus. There is so much learning in a lot of the details of the tabernacle. Dear Johnny I am: I was M/A in 95. One of my big problems with many of the churches I went to was because I wanted to fellowship with people who were committed. It was so disappointing to meet people who believed "anything goes" when it came to spiritual matters. This is one area where I think the Way ministry was correct. Too bad there was so much pharisaical thinking with all of the micro-management of our lives. Dear Cool Waters: I was sorry to hear that you were M/A from the offshoot. A lot of the local old Way people go to a nondenominational charismatic church. They have a fun service with lots of music and enthusiasm, but the minster plays it "fast and loose" with the scriptures. Yet it is exciting to go to a church where so many are seeing real deliverance in their lives. Dear Sasquatch: Your church does sound exciting! With all of the growth they are experiencing I will bet that your ministers are preaching the bible. Dear Bramble: I was sorry to hear that you felt "used" by your fellowship leader. I also appreciated your input. While you do not have a ‘christian' story you bring up what some folks go through after they leave the Way. I also liked your candor in how you handled yourself. Dear Trefor: Mormonism? It sounds like there is a good story in there somewhere! Dear Tom Strange: By the way.....is there a story with how you chose your handle? You bring up a good point as to the kind of message these large, ornate buildings give off to people passing by. Dear Radar: One thing that I do like about my church is that since it is a major denomination there are watchdogs to make sure that money is spent approriatly. Dear Exie: How are you doing? Haven't spoken with you in a while. EWB

Dear Fellow Greasespotters: There is an interesting question that I have always wanted to ask: how did you pick the church that you currently attend? Were you most interested in a fellowship that has a specific doctrinal ideas or one that has Pentecostal leanings? Did you chose a group because it had a less strict view of personal duty or were you drawn to one that has an exciting music ministry? Perhaps you met some wonderful people who invited you to their fellowship. Maybe you go to an offshoot or perhaps your Wayfer experience has soured you to any organized denomination? I am curious to see how others here chose their new Church home. I guess to be fair I really should go first. While I still believe a great deal of Way doctrine I chose a presbyterian (PCA) church because I met a few people who manifested genuine Christian love who were excited about their church. The minister preaches in a somewhat dry and scholarly manner, but he does base all of his teachings on scripture. While looking from the outside it appears to be a very preppie and staid congregation, but it is obvious that the leadership wants everyone to be a success in their Christian walk. I have also had some very interesting discussions about free will versus predestination. While I can't say that it is a perfect match, I do feel like it is a spiritual home. What I miss the most about the Way was the genuine feeling of esprit de corps. EWB

Dear Dovey: What is CRF an acronym for? Your good report has me interested in finding out more. Do they have a web site? I do not see them listed on the 'links' section of Gspot. EWB