CKnapp3

Perhaps "The Return of Christ" is a misnomer, as Christ is very real and present both in body and in spirit. Perhaps what they mean is "The Appearance of the Lord". But as to how the Lord will appear is uncertain, and could very well be anything but what we expect it to be.

quote:

Originally posted by TheInvisibleDan:

I strongly disagree.

There is no explicit rule that the "doctrinal" section of this forum is designed only for "believers" or those who "love God" - where are you gathering this from?

As distasteful and ugly as a person's opinion or outlook may appear to you or me or anyone else, they have just as much place to post here as anyone. If we're going to start segregating the forum according to whether one's a "believer" or "non-believer" (and if so - according to whose beliefs?) - we may as well be back in twi.

:::::snipped for brevity::::::::

Danny

Hiya Dan,

LTNS (of course you ARE invisible, aren't ya?) :)-->

I've always thought of you as a peacemaker, even in the most ugliest disputes. (I think you know what I have in mind ;)--> )

Well, I made a similar statement to fish's about a year and a half ago, and while I stepped on a few toes doing it, those who know me well figured out what I meant by it. (can you say "context"? :)--> )

The scriptures, minus The Spirit, are a bunch of empty words. However I think fish's dispute goes beyond that. He not only disses the bible, but even God himself. I understand his feelings, and my take is that he doesn't know the goodness of God.

Sometimes the best thing to do with someone who really is pushing your buttons is to just give him no entertainment (some advice I should have given myself a while back, as you know what I'm referring to Dan, so I see how one can get sucked into this).

Roy and Goey, I think you both are great guys. I wouldn't let this get to you, but just ignore him for the most part. Perhaps he will either run out of steam, or maybe get himself banned.

Fish, I think someone on another thread suggested to you to go over to JWO if you need to valve off some steam. There's no holds barred there. I ought to know.

While The Way did very little to help me, I do believe it had to be a part of my destiny. Why? I have a rather vague answer. But it does have something to do with how God metes out justice. I do believe they did abuse their liberty severely, but it was a liberty I needed at the time. I have since moved on to even a greater liberty than The Way has taught. Still, it's better that such a liberty is not abused, but then again judgement does begin with the house of God. And I myself do feel I'm going through the fires right now, and actually have been doing so since the beginning of my tour with The Way.

I've been wondering what happened to Chip also. He spent his interim corps year in Cheyenne, WY, where I took the class in 1977.

To all my fellow universalists,

If you really want to discuss universalism, click on the link below.

Tentmaker Forum

If Daryl were straight, there would be no real difference except that he would like women. :)--> Otherwise he would be the same person we know and love.

For a real talk show, if you have a shortwave radio, tune to WBCQ on Sunday nites 8pm - 12am EST for the Johnny Lightning Show, He's a hell of lot better than Dr. Laura, and whole lot funnier. Or you can click the link below on Sunday nights.

Johnny Lightning Show

quote:

Originally posted by pawtucket:

Chuck,

I think that laleo stated it well.

You stated that I could edit your posts if I wanted to do so. How generous! Why don't you discuss, instead of harass?

Pawtucket,

I have just one question. What do you call some who desires to see people get hurt and gets enjoyment from it?

Answer: A Sadist

I'm just calling a spade a spade

I had contacted you privately a while back and asked you to close this thread because it's Def who is the one who doing the provoking. Now I'm making that suggesstion to you publicly. You should do just that and I'll take this matter with Def privately. Or maybe not at all.

I try to live peacefully with all men as the bible suggests, but what do you do when you are being deliberately provoked?

Maybe we should all be thankfull this is only an electronic forum and not a live stage. Otherwise we would have had another Geraldo ( a long time ago and people would have ended up in the hosptial.

quote:

Originally posted by Galen:

There does exist a few groups who beleive that only if you beleive that that you are mortal and must one day face a supreme being, can you be trusted.

Since if you beleive that there is no rewards or penaltys for bad behavior then you can not be trusted. Since you obviously don't care about your behavior here.

If you beleive that you will one day face your creator, then you can be trusted to keep your word and to try and act within 'due-bounds'.

I belong to a few such 'groups'.

:-)

I believe in rewards and penalties, but they are of a redeeming nature, not of the unredemptive nature Def subscribes to.

People who believe in eternal torment cannot be trusted because of their perverse desire to see their enemies suffer endlessly, and not just any pain, EXCRUCIATING pain at that. Like you just said Galen, a person who doesn't care about his conduct cannot be trusted, and hell-fire damnation preachers are given to disorderly conduct.

quote:

Originally posted by Oakspear:

But if he was shot for his plain-evilness would he still be saved? -->

I was told a few months back that I should be shot for conducting a panty raid.

Sure Oak. That sinful nature of his would perish, leaving any godly nature he has behind. (and if he doesn't have a godly nature, he sure will be given one ;)--> )

As for the panty raid, you didn't stage that raid at the home of some Nebraska farmer's daughter now, did ya :D-->. You know those farmers and their shotguns :)-->

I think at the core of all this debate about Universalism is whether or not man has freedom of will. I could understand Def's argument if man did have free will, however the bible makes is crystal clear that we are SLAVES to sin. If we truly had freedom of will, then we would in fact need no saviour, for we would definitely choose life. A slave on the other hand has no free will, but has to conform to his master.

quote:

Originally posted by Mark Sanguinetti:

And what Garth posted is why Jesus judged good vs bad based on actual tangible fruit and not merely on words that one espouses.

"By their fruit ye shall know them".

Amen, Mark! Now Def is talking about how I actually hate him, and I say he is full of hate. You'd think with 2 people being full of hate, they would actually have fellowship! LOL :D--> I pointed out to Def in a rhetorical fashion that in the absence of hell, his true nature would stick out (and this is obviously his principle), so much so that he should be shot. He took it as a threat, which is was not. He is obviously paranoid, so much so that he failed to see that statement as nothing more than the rhetoric it was intended to be. (If Paw wants to edit that post in question, fine with me.)

quote:

Originally posted by def59:

quote:

Originally posted by CKnapp3:

Like you said Def, man has free will, and you have demonstrated what you would do by your free will in the absence of a hell-fire warning. You should be shot because you are just plain evil.

OK, Chuck wants me killed. Does this violate GS rules? Can Pawtucket intervene?

Don't you know rhetoric when you see it? I guess Jesus would be guilty of violating GS rules too when he said that child molesters should have a weight wrapped around their necks and chucked into the sea.

Def, you are obviously so paranoid that you failed to see the rhetoric that was intended. If Paw wants to edit that post, that would be fine with me.

Like you said Def, man has free will, and you have demonstrated what you would do by your free will in the absence of a hell-fire warning. You should be shot because you are just plain evil.

quote:

Originally posted by def59:

Good article.

But Chuck, did you notice his prayer at the end? He believes Jesus died and was rose again to defeat sin and bring salvation to the world.

That's different than what you believe isn't it? So why don't you measure up to this man's beliefs?

Like hell that's different! What the goddamn hell do you think we've been arguing about you idiot? I do in fact measure up to that man's beliefs, and when I do you give me an ungodly hassle over it. Are you too stupid to see that? Or are you just a plain hypocrite?

You don't believe Jesus brought salvation to the world, you believe he brought it to believers only. And you don't believe that Jesus died and rose again to defeat sin and Satan. It's clear and manifest in your eternal torment beliefs. I see now that you are mentally unstable.

You have not forgiven everyone, for the simple reason is that you don't love everyone. This is why you have excluded a great deal of people from salvation.

Also in that prayer he asked God to help him receive his UNCONDITIONAL love, that he may learn to give it to others.. YOU don't believe God's love is unconditional! You have placed too many conditions on it. Maybe you should pray that same prayer yourself.

This is the question Def59 frequently pops when he disputes universal salvation. Click the link below to read the answer to Def's question.

Why Live A Good Life If Everyone Is Going To Be Saved?

quote:

Originally posted by def59:

Well Chuck

::::snipped:::::

It's hard to discuss anything with you because you act like you're running the Inquisition. You cannot tolerate dissent.

That's like the pot calling the kettle black. YOU my friend are walking more in the spirit of the Inquisition than I am. I cannot tolerate UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, SIN, and INJUSTICE. What's wrong with that? If God cannot tolerate them, then I have a right to intolerate them as well, since I am made in His image! If you share that intolerance with me, then why do you insist those things will never end? Just what do you exactly have to hope for? Why do you insist that Satan will reign forever in hell when God promises the absoulte destruction of all his works? Why do you insist on the endless torture of your (and God's) enemies? And you have the effrontery to say I'M the torquemada?

quote:

Originally posted by Galen:

Mary is dead. Jesus did die. He later got up again and is now sitting on the Right hand of G-d, as both the Bible and PFAL told us.

:-)

Galen, most universalists would actually agree with you believe it or not. However, I take the resurrection story as more an allegorical account rather than a factual one.

That is one area that Gary Amriault and myself would probably disagree.

quote:

Originally posted by def59:

Well Chuck

First stop swearing, it does no good. :D-->

Second, I'm not sure what you believe or where you get your theology. So I am not sure whether to be offended, disgusted or continously perplexed.

Third, I know you have a lot of anti-Catholic hatred. So much, I think you need to go to God and have him help you forgive them for whatever wrong they committed against you regardless if they ever say they are sorry or not.

It's hard to discuss anything with you because you act like you're running the Inquisition. You cannot tolerate dissent.

Because I'm a universalist, I have no problem with that. Because you believe in limited salvation, you on the other hand do have a problem with it. So who in the hell are you to give me such advice seeing you don't heed to it yourself?

quote:

Originally posted by def59:

CK

I am not sure now what you believe. You said Jesus and the Son of God were not the same person, now you are saying they are (or at least that is what I am hearing.)

I do not believe Mary is the mother of God. She was the vessel chosen to carry the Messiah, so we should respect her, but not revere her. She is not our mediatrix nor has any sway with the Lord.

:::snipped fgr brevity::::

If I'm starting to perplex you Def, then you now know what a paradox is. The bible is chock full of them.

Since you believe that Mary is NOT the Mother of God, then you have to admit that the son of Mary is now dead, seeing that Mary is the mother of a mortal. It's the Son of God that lives forever. And that being my friend, had as much beginning as his father. In fact he is considered eternally begotten (a strange statement, since eternally and begotten are oxymorons). I still say you swear by the son of Mary, and not by the Son of God.

So Dan, from your response, I gather that the people who argue that hell-fire damnation preachers are getting their idea based on Zoroastrianism are giving a false assessment on Zoroastrianism?

Well, I will be prepared to take your word for it since you are a gnostic and would know more than the non-gnostic would about gnosticism.

Invisible Dan said:

quote:

Mark,

this is precisly the Zoroastrian interpretation of the lake of fire - for reason of purification.

Dan, I find that assessment rather strange in light of what I have read about Zoroastrianism, in that a whole lot of the false teachings of Christendom's eternal torment doctrines have their roots in Zoroastrianism. Would you care to refute that? :)-->

I don't dispute what you say though since Mark and I agree that the lake of fire is a purification thing, but can you give me a reliable source for that statement?

You know Def, one question I have to ask you is why do you cast me out for the sake of the name of Christ? And then you have the effrontery to say "Praise God". The following quote from Isaiah should serve as a warning to you.

quote:

Isaiah 66:5 Hear the Word of the LORD, ye that tremble at his Word; your Brethren that hated you, and cast you out for my Name's Sake, said, Let the LORD be glorified, but HE shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed.

Psalmie,

Miss seeing you in chat anymore. I guess that means our paths will never cross now.

Good luck on your relocation :)-->

quote:

Originally posted by Jbarrax:

I've already posted my opinion on the BU thread. I don't see the logic in it myself. I don't believe that Jesus is "God the Son", but Chuck's seperation of Jesus into two persons is somewhat confusing. I'm comfortable with the idea that Jesus was a man born of divine conception and annointed with a heapin' helpin' of holy spirit. (I think I've been in Kentudky too long) :-P

Peace

JerryB

JB, I think you misunderstand. I don't believe Jesus is two people, anymore than we are two people. I do believe Jesus had two NATURES, very very separate. If they are not, then the law of logic has to credit Roman Catholicism with correctly teaching that Mary is The Mother of God. Not only that, but we have been given rather bad advice to "not walk after the flesh". But nonetheless we are advised that to walk after the flesh only leads to death.

The question is: is our faith in Christ after the flesh, or after the spirit? I see a great majority of Christians who are very very carnal when it comes to faith. And they would be the very first ones to even deny it! Nobody wants to believe they are more carnal than spiritual, including yours truly. So instead of arguing I'm spiritual and you are carnal, with you arguing back that I'm carnal and you are spiritual, I would just assume conclude that we all have sold out to the flesh. So what does God need to do with us now, now than none of us are spiritual? Just a little food for thought.