dizzydog

Steve, You wrote: "When Mike talks about "PFAL", he isn't really talking about the class presented by Wierwille. Mike is talking about the misinterpretations fed to him by his "advanced Christ formed within" spirits. Mike admits that there is a spirit, other than holy spirit, that has been "born" and is "growing" in his mind. This spirit gives Mike "spiritual understandings" of PFAL which often contradict the plain meaning of what Wierwille actually wrote. The yardstick Mike uses to condemn everyone else is a sliderule, in the worst sense of the word." While I do not have any revelation about Mike's spiritual condition, I have not even heard him speak in tongues so I do not even know if he is born again. I assume he is my brother in Christ because I see that as loving. I find his admitting to have some spirit other than Holy Spirit disturbing. This is quite contrary to PFAL and the scriptures. (Yes I know you think they are one in the same, Mike. Save the flogging for later. I am sure it will be coming by the end of this letter.) My best efforts to communicate with him have done little more than make me irritated again. My real point with that statement is that he seems to have taken a class and a set of materials and used them as a means of gauging or judging others by them. Whether we measure up to his (Mike's) standards seems to be the real issue. Despite all that God has done for those in the body of Christ it is interesting to me that there always seems to be someone waiting in the wings to accuse those who have chosen to believe on God. There is always something else we have to do, until we do it we are just not quite good enough. When a born again one comes after a brother in Christ with an accusation on his lips or fingertips he is not behaving the way God designed him to behave and is devilishly affecting the body. 2 Corinthians 4:1-7 1 Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not; 2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. 3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. 5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. 6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us. When Paul speaks of not handling the Word of God deceitfully he is speaking about not using the Word the further his own agenda. One way of looking at this is using the word as bait or giving the word to someone but having a hook in it so as to reel them in. It stands on it's own and is commended to all by God and him alone. Verse 5 is easily understood and is interpreted in the verse. For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. Mike preaches VPW. Ever notice how little Jesus Christ comes up in his 700 some odd posts. If Jesus Christ is even mentioned it is in the context of something he is quoting from VPW. Never mind his obnoxiousness the real thing that shows where he is coming from is the remarkable lack of Christ being acknowledged, let alone preached. If you really want to read all of his many posts read them in light of this section of the scriptures. If he has spoken the Word the end result will be that Christ has been declared Lord and that Mike and all others who speak for God have been declared servants for Christ's sake, for we preach not ourselves. Mike, I would suggest you read what I have written here a couple of times before you start blasting away at me. If you are honest you will see what I have declared here is true. Verse 7 - But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us. That power came from God. Let's give the glory and declaration to the real man who provided power for abundant living to us, Jesus Christ.

Mike, There is little point in continuing this with you. I see nothing beneficial to my life and my understanding of God's Word in continuing this debate with you. You have a yardstick that you are measuring EVERYONE else with called PFAL. As far as I am concerned this is off the Word. Declaring God's truths are not the same as the judgements you pass on everyone else. Just as I could not discern whether you had a devil spirit you cannot measure my level of respect for anything. If anything I shown you a great deal of respect for the materials you advocate. Unless God is showing you all the things in my heart you have little to criticize me with. You still don't know me. Go ahead and spend your valuable time with someone else, I know I will.

Mike, This is getting tedious. Let me explain the way you are coming off to me. I am not concerned about whether you think I am falling short in some area of my study of God's Word. Your repeated badgering of whether I am mastering the PFAL materials or not is not based on anything of substance other than your suspicions. If you think I have fallen short then you would not be the first. I have made that observation about myself many times and have NEVER claimed to have mastered anything. What I said is that I heard VPW's instructions and have studied the materials diligently for the last 12 years. As I said before I am responsible to God and God alone as to whether I am a workman who needs to not be ashamed. I am not. Obviously you do not approve of my attitude toward these things, and at the moment I am none too fond of yours. What is your point here Mike? Do you just want to fight? The way you act I wouldn't compare shopping lists with you let alone my notes. As I said before you come off belittling and you just did it again. I have tried very hard to be respectful of you and honestly and lovingly discuss these things with you and you continue to be offensive. As I said, I don't trust you and I am not interested in your ideas about PFAL, not because of your lack of knowledge but because of your lack of respect toward me. Rather sad really. I am sure you are a wealth of knowledge with regard to those materials and would love to be able to have access to that much data. I won't open myself to your agenda however. The Word will speak for itself, I don't need your interpretation of it.

Mike, Stop assuming I haven't followed Dr's directions. You wrote: "What I HAVE done is get your attention. Dr?s final instructions were totally ignored." "IF it?s the case that God gave Dr revelation in those dying last words, then we are 17 years late in exciting that PFAL mastery that's twice insisted upon in that last teaching. Such a situation might very well deserve a shift in study habits to make up for lost time." I did not need you to get my attention, and I did not ignore his instructions. You might be surprised at the amount of time I have spent over the last 12 years studying the PFAL materials and other teachings. I hope by now you have seen that I have at least a working knowledge of the material. I am not the only one either. Many of us did not throw the baby out with the bathwater and our understanding of God's Word has grown greatly because of it.

Mike, As far as our first encounters, no fault no error. I hold no animousity toward anyone in the body of Christ, God paid too much for our lives. Even if I disagree on some points. This is part of the reason why I reentered the discussion. I felt obligated to give you an honest hearing and response.

Mike, you wrote: "I don?t want to prescribe personal study habits. It does seem that Dr has something to say about them, though. He said some things in the record that I can post." Thank you for respecting me enough to not prescribe my personal study habits. As far as "Dr having something to say about them" once again you tell me what you think he has said but you don't tell me what he said. Speak the Word. Regarding my study habits, they are directed by my heavenly father, who is as living and real to me now as he ever has been. James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. If there are things written in PFAL or any other work done by VPW that will help and guide me to be a better workman of God's Word I will seek those things out. My approval comes from God and him alone, not you Mike. I just listened to a tape last night on righteousness that VPW did in the late 70's, I found it very enlightening as I have been studying righteousness recently, including an extensive study from the collaterals and Kenyon. I don't disagree with PFAL I disagree with your conclusions about PFAL.

Frankly Mike, With all due respect and love. I don't trust you. The first time I ever questioned your conclusions you made some very personal and disrespectful comments about me and about my regard for God's Word, and those who taught it to me VPW included. You knew nothing about me. I am sorry for equating you with an internet troll, your behavior however, was remarkably similar to the ones I have seen on other boards. I find you belittling and your speech is rarely seasoned with Grace for the hearer (reader). Why I should now want to spend time discussing these things with you seems to me would be a chore rather than an enlightenment. I don't think it would be a full sharing with a brother who loved me but rather a confrontation with someone who had an agenda. Perhaps I am wrong, I have been before. In short, why should I listen to or read what you have to say about PFAL when I can read it for myself? And I will study it as I always have. As well as Bullinger, Kenyon and many others, always with the scriptures open on the same desk.

Mike, When I told you that I had been wrong about my earlier judgments of you I meant it. I am not attempting to accuse you of anything that many others have accused you of. Indeed I see you as a man who regarded the teachings in PFAL as God inspired and are attempting to show others the value and Godliness of the material. I will not argue with you about the value of the class or the materials. My challenge with you is many of the things you write here in this forum cannot be supported by any references in PFAL. In example, your conclusions about Christ formed in you are not in the materials you have encouraged me to master. I am all too aware of what was written in the PFAL materials as I have proven here in the last few days. Don?t criticize me for not giving God the credit of being able to make his Word known to any generation. You wrote: ?You seem bound to a theology that says God is forbidden to get anything in writing when it comes to these modern centuries. Your dogma cannot tolerate God?s intervention to reissue any or all of His Word. Your dogma will not allow God to inspire perfect writing, even to assist His children as they try to sort through which theologians or scholars they can trust THIS decade to be their necessary middlemen to the ancient scriptures.? You don?t give me enough credit; of course you don?t seem willing to give anyone any credit. What I don?t agree with are the conclusions you have drawn from your studies of the materials. You have written volumes on this forum about what you think and you use various references from the materials but many of your references and quotes are vague and could be applied to a number of issues. Much else you write is at best WAY above and beyond what was taught in the PFAL series. At worst some of what you write has no basis whatsoever on anything written in PFAL. As I have said before, if PFAL is the Word of God you contend that it is then speak the Word, and only the Word. It should be easily entreated, mean what it says and say what it means and so simple that even a child need not err therein. It should also be delivered with the love of God. It?s the love of Christ that constrains a man. If you are right about what you claim then the love of God will deliver where your wrath, anger and accusations will not. As far as others claim that you are possessed, I will not lay these claims at your feet for two reasons: 1)We need revelation to know whether someone has a devil spirit. God has shown me no such thing about you. 2)Under present circumstances I doubt God would show me such a thing; I could do little to help you in such a forum as this. To accuse you of having a spirit makes a spiritual need personal and shows little love for the person with the need. I have prayed for you because you are my brother in Christ.

Mike you have made the case that the scriptures are not God's Word anymore. Being bound by them is no longer an issue, you can say anything you like and based on what you believe God has worked in you, you will declare. I believe what you are endeavoring to do here is the same thing the adversary has attempted to do since the fall of man. Steal, kill and destroy God's Word. Get people to doubt God's Word and subsequently believe it is no longer valid. You have asserted PFAL is the replacement for the scriptures but PFAL itself declares the inportance of the scriptures. And you can twist it anyway you want but you cannot change what was written in the PFAL book about God's Word. You write very LITTLE of the scriptures in your million word march through this forum. God has a reason for everything he says and he says it in a way that even a child need not err therein. Your posts are long, and have little scripture to back them up. As a WOW surely you remember being trained to open the Word and provide chapter and verse for what you witnessed to people. It is a shame that this lesson has been lost on you here in this forum.

As far as finding the exact quote look on pages 145-148. You will find I quoted it quite accurately. Your long prose is not convincing. I can still show someone from the scriptures how to become born again, manifest that Holy Spirit, understand the hope and all of the things that go along with it. Just as VPW did in PFAL. "The Scriptures tell us the truth about the Lord Jesus Christ, and about God: this is doctrine - it is right believing." The "versions" we have still get the job done and still provides for man a way to be reconciled to God. Believe it or not I have not thrown the baby out with the bathwater and have taken VPW's encouragement very seriously. You have conveniently ignored what VPW said on page 128 of PFAL. "To get the Word of God out of any translation or out of any version, we have to compare one word with another word and one verse with another verse. We have to study the context of all the verses. If it is the Word of God, then it cannot have a contradiction for God cannot contradict Himself." You are trying to back peddle away from this statement by saying now that "Dr did sometimes talk about the non-authoritativeness of the existing manuscripts, and he even occasionally mentioned that academic collection of fragments is neither authoritative nor complete." You don't have the quote, you cannot prove he ever said this so until you do don't assert this is what he thought. He may have said things like this but what he said in PFAL is that "To get the Word of God out of any translation or out of any version, we have to compare one word with another word and one verse with another verse. We have to study the context of all the verses." I have shown you what was written in PFAL and you have ignored it, and attempted to muddle the statement by throwing in a long email you had with someone else. You wrote: "He was always dropping hints like "I didn't write the book" that could easily be associated with his books as the Bible." Are you assuming this or do you know this is what he meant when he said it? If you don't know then don't give your assumptions. If it's God's Word he will say what he means and mean what he says. OK so we need to master those books. This does not make the case that the scriptures we have no longer contain the Word of God. Speak the Word Mike not your ideas or feelings.

Mike, You will notice I edited my post after I found the phrase perfectly renewed mind in the PFAL book. Please read my edited post for my comment on the renewed mind. As far as your statement regarding the translations of the bible: You wrote - ?In the film class (segment 16, page 127 in the book) Dr. says: "No translation, no translation, and I want you to listen very carefully; for no translation, and by the way that's all we have today at best are translations. No translation may properly be called The Word Of God... ..no translation!" Then a minute later he repeats: "Now I said that no translation, no translation, let alone a version, no translation may properly be called The Word Of God..." Then several minutes later he hits it again: "And in this class on Power For Abundant Living, when I refer to The Word Of God I may hold the King James Version or I may hold some other version and point to it; I do not mean that version. I mean that Word of God which was originally given when holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit." The paragraph I posted earlier was the next paragraph after this statement. Since you present this as proof of your assertions I will let VPW respond to you. Page 128 - "Since we have no originals and the oldest manuscripts that we have date back to the fifth century A.D., how can we get back to the authentic prophecy which was given when holy men of God spoke? To get the Word of God out of any translation or out of any version, we have to compare one word with another word and one verse with another verse. We have to study the context of all the verses. If it is the Word of God, then it cannot have a contradiction for God cannot contradict Himself. Error has to be either in the translation or in one's own understanding. When we get back to that original, God-breathed Word - which I am confident we can - then once again we will be able to say with all the authority of the prophets of old, "Thus saith the Lord." You have repeatedly confused my devotion to the scriptures as being a devotion to KJV. I have NEVER asserted such a thing. In PFAL VPW states that 85-90% of the Word of God can be interpreted in the verse from Genesis to Revelation. You have taken one thing he has said and used it as an excuse to discount the scriptures (versions, translations et al?) as being "unreliable fragments AND tattered remnants ?. Never mind the other two ways we have of interpreting the scriptures, in the context and where it has been used before. Even if we don?t have 100% of the original Word of God using VPW?s own statistics we could still have at least 90-95% of it right within the versions you have slandered. 90-95% is not unreliable nor is it tattered, Mike. And yet VPW himself says that in order to get the Word OUT of any translation or version we have to study those translations and versions. You state the translations and versions are "unreliable fragments AND tattered remnants?, VPW writes that God?s Word is still in those documents IF we study them. You can?t take something OUT if it is not IN there to begin with. Remember, ?Search the scriptures?? I am going to keep reminding you what you have said because I never heard or read VPW assert that the scriptures we have in any translation were "unreliable fragments AND tattered remnants?. If he ever heard someone make such a statement he would have blown a gasket. These are your words no one else?s. If PFAL is the Word of God as you have asserted then why not just speak the Word? Why add your own words to it? Why make statements that are not supportable? You are either lazy or propounding an agenda.

Mike Wrote - "When Dr mentions ?scriptures? in your quotes, he is referring to the ORIGINALS, in their original understanding." I just read what VPW said about getting back to the original God-breathed Word. Here it is: PFAL Page 128 - "Since we have no originals and the oldest manuscripts that we have date back to the fifth century A.D., how can we get back to the authentic prophecy which was given when holy men of God spoke? To get the Word of God out of any translation or out of any version, we have to compare one word with another word and one verse with another verse. We have to study the context of all the verses. If it is the Word of God, then it cannot have a contradiction for God cannot contradict Himself. Error has to be either in the translation or in one's own understanding. When we get back to that original, God-breathed Word - which I am confident we can - then once again we will be able to say with all the authority of the prophets of old, "Thus saith the Lord." Here VPW is advocating an intensive study of those very scriptures you have called "unreliable fragments AND tattered remnants". What else could he be emphasizing we study? Remember what 2 Timothy 2:15 says? I would suggest one thing to you Mike. VPW's reason for encouraging a mastery of PFAL was not because he was declaring it to be the next scripture. He advocated this because he had declared how perfect God's Word, the scriptures were, when studied this way, in the class. His drive to have others master PFAL was a drive to get people to study God's Word, the scriptures as defined on page 66.

Mike wrote: "The perfectly renewed mind cannot be received from KJV study, but it can be received by mastering the PFAL writings, including it's repetition of many KJV verses." Seriously Mike. I really want to know where this is promised in PFAL. Chapter and verse if you will. I can read about the renewed mind in Romans, and I know what VPW wrote and taught about the renewed mind in PFAL. Dr. taught us that when we have such needs in our lives we can find that promise in the scriptures (as I am asserting here) that will meet that need and believe the Word in that category so as to recieve that which is promised in the scriptures. Where in PFAL does he say that by mastering PFAL we will have a perfectly renewed mind? Page 331 - Phillipians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus. "That is the renewed mind. Christ always did the will of the Father. He always carried out his word perfectly. When we let His mind be in us which was in Christ Jesus, we will have a perfectly renewed mind." You changed a few words here, Mike. Your idea of how to have a perfectly renewed mind is not the same as what is in PFAL. One other point. You wrote: "When Dr mentions ?scriptures? in your quotes, he is referring to the ORIGINALS, in their original understanding." When did he say that's what he was referring to? If that is what he meant why didn't he say that. This is what you have interpreted. He still references Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21. This statement is in reference to a version of the scriptures that has chapters and verses. The originals did not have chapters or verses in them (as you remember learning in PFAL). Yet he says Genesis 1:1 (Chapter 1 verse 1) to Revelation 22:21 (Chapter 22 verse 21). Your assertions that this is talking about two different "topics" contradicts this. If there are two different "topics" between the older originals and the newer versions he certainly referenced the new by including the chapters and verses in his declaration that "All scripture is given by inspiration of God," "all scripture" means without any exception from Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21." ALL without any exception, he does not say ALL without distinction. The very section of PFAL where this is quoted from explains the difference between exception and distinction. If the texts he were talking about here were that watered down he would have had to define them as without distinction. But he makes such a definitive statement that "All scripture is given by inspiration of God," "all scripture" means without any exception from Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21." The chapters and verses must be kept as part of the statement. If he was talking about the "original" texts why did he include the chapters and verses in such an explicit statement? [This message was edited by dizzydog on June 03, 2003 at 18:18.]

VPW - "In 2 Timothy 3, where it reads, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God," "all scripture" means without any exception from Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21." Mike- "unreliable fragments AND tattered remnants." VPW- "This Word of God does not change. Men change, ideologies change, opinions change; but this Word of God lives and abides forever. It endures, it stands. Let's see this from John 5:39. "Search the scriptures...." Mike- "unreliable fragments AND tattered remnants." VPW- "The Scriptures tell us the truth about the Lord Jesus Christ, and about God: this is doctrine - it is right believing."

VPW's writings were written here for two purposes. 1) To show that "ALL" scripture from Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21 was "God-breathed" 2) To show others so that they need not be blown about by every wind of doctrine. How? By searching the scriptures (see point 1). In the scriptures we have eternal life. It does not say search VPW's writings it says search the scriptures. "The Scriptures tell us the truth about the Lord Jesus Christ, and about God: this is doctrine - it is right believing." Point 1 shows us what VPW thought were the scriptures. Point two shows the order of importance. ALL scripture (Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21) is God Breathed. SOME of what VPW or others might write could be God-breathed. Frankly I don't think Dr. W contradicted himself at all here. He said what he meant and meant what he said and never wanted his writings to be used as means of diluting or superceding "ALL" God-breathed scriptures from Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21. Nothing hidden about it. Mike, just what is it you consider God's Word? The scriptures? You have repeatedly rebuffed them as being second in priority to PFAL. Yet PFAL itself declares the importance of the scriptures from Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21.

Power For Abundant Living Published 1971 Second Impression 1972 Page 66 "In 2 Timothy 3, where it reads, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God," "all scripture" means without any exception from Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21." Page 82 "The testimony of the Word of God is that all Scripture is God-breathed and is profitable for doctrine, which is able to teach us how to believe positively. If we are going to tap the resources for the more abundant life we must know how to believe rightly. To the people who say that the Bible has lots of errors in it, I would like to state that the true Word of God is accurate from Genesis to Revelation. The errors have come in by man propounding those errors." Page 83 "The Bible was written so that you as a believer need not be blown about by every wind of doctrine or theory or ideology. This Word of God does not change. Men change, ideologies change, opinions change; but this Word of God lives and abides forever. It endures, it stands. Let's see this from John 5:39. "Search the scriptures...." It does not say search Shakespeare or Kant or Plato or Aristotle or V.P. Wierwille's writings or the writings of a denomination. No, it says, "Search the scriptures..." because all scripture is God-breathed. Not all that Wierwille writes will necessarily be God-breathed; not what Calvin said, nor Luther, nor Wesley, nor Graham, nor Roberts; but the Scriptures - they are God-breathed. John 5:39: Search the scriptures; for in them ... ye have eternal life: and they (the Scriptures) are they which testify of me. The Scriptures tell us the truth about the Lord Jesus Christ, and about God: this is doctrine - it is right believing."

Mike wrote: "Correct. Beyond my sincerity and beyond my obstinacy are the details of the PFAL text. If I?m correct, and God had His hand in their writing, then His Word will speak for itself better than I could ever. That?s where the truth is guaranteed." PFAL was produced to direct us to the truth, God's Word. Nowhere in the text's of PFAL or the collaterals did VPW encourage us to vaunt the class or it's writings above the scriptures. Quite the contrary as I have proven before. I also am unfamiliar with any statements in PFAL that guaranteed truth in the details of the text of PFAL. You and I disagree on what VPW meant when he talked about the Word of God. I believe as he wrote and taught that the Bible (KJV, NIV, NKJV, what have you), scriptures, written word was what he taught was the Word of God. PFAL does not show how to be born again, Romans 10:9-10 does (even if it is written in the PFAL materials). PFAL is not first place the one body, grace, the manifestations et'al was written. Remember one of the keys to research is to seek the first place something was written. VPW taught us himself not to take his word for it but to search the scriptures. And yes he meant the Bible, I personally watched him point to his Bible as he was declaring this. Mike, I think I understand you after reading a number of your posts. And I am willing to say my judgements of you were wrong. I realize now how concerned you are with trying to teach others the value in PFAL. Believe it or not I actually agree with you of the value in the materials. And I am unwilling to discount it's value because of the author and the record of The Way International. I mean this sincerely. I also agree with many here that VPW was not the first to write much of what he taught. There is value in seeking those writings as well. All with the goal of understanding God's written word, THE SCRIPTURES. And no I do not mean the KJV. I mean the scriptures researched in as many texts, with as much depth as is available using the keys to research as taught in PFAL. I wish there were a better way to discuss these things with you but unfortunately you seem unwilling to honestly discuss questions and issues with these materials. The hint that someone disagrees with you makes you discount them personally. Questions are met with repeated promises that you will get back to them on that, you rarely do. And you have yet to give anyone else any credit for points well made. And some have been made. For whatever this is worth, I respect your determination. I would not have said that a few weeks ago...

Sincerity is no guarantee for truth? and neither is obstinacy.

Steve, Well, said. I too found the great deliverance I always sought when I finally stopped trying to achieve something by the works of my own hands, or mind if that?s the case, and finally realize that the work was finished in Christ. My identity is now defined as one who was an enemy of God and is now his son by his grace and only by his grace. He loves me, I study his Word now to learn how much and what he is able to do for others if they choose to believe. The manifestations likewise are given to us, as imperfect people, to serve him better. God is able to create the heavens and the universe. This idea that there is some level of my own mastery that God needs me to do is foolish in any category not just PFAL. I have nothing available to God that he cannot do himself, with one exception. I can call him Father and direct others to him as Father. The question has been asked repeatedly of Mike what defines mastery of PFAL? A second question could be asked, what would be the benefit of this mastery once attained? How much more can I have for myself by this endeavor that I do not already have by the free gift of God? It?s all an issue of identity. If I see myself as the son God made me I can live an abundant life. If I see myself as being deficient in some category (I.E. my knowledge of some subject) I will forever be disappointed in my expectations. I do not anticipate Mike answering this question with any more logic or simplicity than he answers any other questions, if he even bothers to answer them at all. His sole purpose is to have his ego fed by seeing his endless words posted on the internet and the subsequent negative attention he garners with his contrary positions.

Well said Goey. Dont be surprised by Mike's answer. He will not acknowledge when he is wrong. We could quote the whole Bible and repeat everything VPW ever said to Mike and he would still assert he is right and everyone else is wrong. It is all subject to Mike's interpretation.

Mike, you wrote: It is VERY hard to change the mind when these kind of hurts are raging. I spent two solid years fighting off ds of revenge and other bad things that the terrible soap opera of my life tempted me with. I?m not talking about Dr here, but previous best friends and close leadership in the West here. On some low ebbs in that two years I had to fight off ds attacks like this a hundred times in one day. __________________ Was Jesus Christ a part of any of this? You declared that you spent two solid years fighting off ds. The last I read we cannot deal with spiritual matters with the flesh. How does this post help that person reading here who is struggling with such challenges find deliverance. If he looked at your example he would think he would have to fight them off himself. The post I copied this from is all about what you have done or had to do. No flesh is is capable of finding its own deliverance, before or after the new birth. But there it is, YOU did it. Jesus Christ is noticeably absent from your numerous posts. Sorta reminded me of athletes of the spirit. I guess you want people to learn about VPW before they learn about Jesus Christ. Cut the crap Mike. The thing you should be feeding on is God's Word, specifically Romans. You have forgotten, if you ever knew, the state of man before Christ and the subsequent need for Gods' grace. God did not make one believer more equipped than anyone else and your story of deliverance draws attention to only one man, you. [This message was edited by dizzydog on April 21, 2003 at 16:18.]

Website? No. I find the best manner is still one on one, in the love of God with a full knowledge of the grace God has provided the sinner. Never from a superior position, without Christ I would still be an enemy of God. Research for research sake is an empty shell of the abundant life provided by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Although I saw a very cool program called Bibleworks recently. 300 bucks but it might be worth it. Nice to meet you as well, Danny. [This message was edited by dizzydog on April 21, 2003 at 12:06.]

One final post... I want to make it clear that while I studied PFAL after leaving TWI I have also studied many other writers. For me PFAL was a starting point. Until I got involved with TWI I had no clue what the scriptures said. When I left I realized that the scriptures were still there and TWI was not. The natural starting point for me was PFAL, I also believed at the time that TWI had moved off the Word, not PFAL. I might add that not only TWI but PFAL is not here either. Yes many of us still have old materials yellowing on the bookshelf but nothing to provide to the next generation, if anyone would really want to do that. For all of Mike's declaration about the divine deliverance of PFAL in our midst there is one problem, the class and all materials are no longer available to the mere mortals of this earth. To start reprinting these materials in its as written form would land one in court. A person would have to rewrite the material, reteach the class, change the form of enough of it to keep the Board of Trustees, and their attorneys, off their backs and would not be able to put VPW's name on what is produced. Of course that would not be a problem in Mike's world since he has already excused VPW for doing the same thing to other writers. These materials are only available, in limited form, to those still in TWI. If I did want to take the class again I would never subject myself to that devilish organization. I still wonder how Mike proposes to declare these materials to the masses since he has this little copyright problem to deal with. Dont bother answering me Mike, I am not really asking you the question. As my knowledge of the scriptures grew I began studying other texts, reference materials and at times other writers. This has led me into a much greater understanding of the scriptures than I ever would have had in the TWI of the eighties when I left. Yes I know PFAL. I have studied it at great length, as well as a large number of other writers. Throughout all of this I have kept an objective opinion of the writers, VPW included. If he did some of the things he has been accused of I am apalled. I find the behavior reprehensible. I have not burned my collaterals because of it though, I paid a lot of money for them. They sit next to many other study materials. I am more convinced than ever of the keys to how the scripture interprets itself. The point is that God's Word is available to the one who hungers and thirsts after righteousness. God will feed him. Mike's limited view of God's ability reach the man who wants to know him is telling. As I quoted before there were many writers but one author. I see God as the hero and VPW as a man. [This message was edited by dizzydog on April 21, 2003 at 9:32.]

Mike, You wrote here: You also seem to have the impression that because PFAL is a class on keys, that that's the ONLY thing it can be. I see it as a God-breathed KJV aid. It teaches the keys authoritatively. __________________ You wrote earlier: You wrote: How about one question Mike. What determines a persons mastery of PFAL? Give a simple answer to this question. By lot of reading WITH the attitude that it is the authoritative Word of God. (When did VPW tell us to view PFAL with the attitude that it is the authoritative Word of God?) ____________________ Which is it? The authoritative Word of God or a KJV aid that teaches the keys authoritatively? Once again your statements are not easily entreated, no simplicity. What did I write that would make you say that I have the impression that my KJV is the Word of God. I dont remember even mentioning the KJV. Indeed, I study roughly 7-8 different translations of the scriptures. Of course we cannot discuss the scriptures because you dont have as much respect for them as you do for PFAL. Despite VPW's assertions of the integrity of the Bible in the first pages of the syllabus I just quoted from. I realize that you dont have the respect for the Bible that the writer of the above sections had but surely you can read black & white. Did you think what I just wrote was my words? Or am I not interpreting the meaning of the Bible being the revealed Word and Will of God accurately? You want so bad to be right but you cant read black and white. Are you glad that you convinced me to be a part of this debate now? You make assertions that completely contradict what was just written. When you are proven wrong you ignore the point and try to go on the attack. Thats all you've got Mike. I found one more for you. Page 19 - No scripture (prophecy) arose, gnomai, or is of one's own interpretation or unfoldment. No scripture came by being let loose on its own. You did not bring it; I DID NOT UNFOLD IT; no one else of his own will did. The Bible has many authors but only one author...God-breathed. _____ VPW himself states here that he did not unfold it. Why cant you see that? He made this declaration of the BIBLE. How many times did he say not to take his Word for it but read it for ourselves? Should we now not read the Bible so much and direct our attention to his writings exclusively? That contradicts everything he ever taught. And yes I do believe that the Bible is the Word of God. No seeming to think about it. I can still open the scriptures for someone who is dead in trespasses and sins and show them the way from death unto life, Jesus Christ. Why have you minimized that? I'll tell you why, you dont believe it. It takes a back seat to the writings of VPW. MAN'S BASIC SPIRITUAL PROBLEM IS THE INTEGRITY OF THE WORD. Dr. never claimed he had a new gospel. Show me that one. You have erroneously decided that VPW's teachings and writings have become the Word of God. You have no scriptural basis for this but there it is. I have shown you a number of very specific things that VPW himself said about this and you ignore them. I am still asking myself why I am debating this with you. Perhaps its because I see yet another new religion developing in your posts. It's amazing to me how people want so bad to find some other way to God than the one he provided in his Word. I guess the grace and simplicity of Christ in the scriptures is to easy for you. You have to find something to work at in order to feel like you are in a superior place to your brothers and sisters in Christ. After all if you somehow achieve this state of mastery of PFAL you have some superior position in the body of Christ. I got news for you, everything you are spiritually God made you. I learned this by my study of the scriptures not all from PFAL. There is no higher level than the one God placed us in the moment we believed. We study the scriptures to learn who we are and what has ALREADY been given to us. That's enough. A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still. I know you will not acknowledge when you are wrong, let alone change your mind. There is little point in this exercise. I have wasted enough time here.

And how about one more: Page 11 - 1. Christ is the living Word, the written Word, the preached Word. Acts 17:1-3 2 Our attitude toward the Word is the key to our spirituality. a. The Bible is the Living Word in action. 1. More than a common book. Man does not trust his own words so he reads his distrust of his words into the Word of God. 2. We have failed to walk into deliverance because the Word is not real to us. 3. We are spiritual hitchhikers and cripples until we know the Word and act. James 1:22. Some stay in this condition so long that they think God is wrong and they are right. Many would rather read and study the literature of the hour than the literature of eternity, for the word of man has preeminence over the Word of God. ___________ VPW frequently included himself and his writings when detailing this point. Or do I have to substantiate this also?