dizzydog

Each book in the Bible accomplishes exactly what it was designed to accomplish. Much like the Words of Christ. We would not be able to make as much sense out of the Epistles without the Gospels. To assign a higher value (or treasure) to one or the other is a bit irrelevant. They were designed for different purposes. And yes revelation does change, that doesn't change my point. Using the logic expressed by both you Mike and you def one could easily say that The Book of Acts should be valued (or treasured) above all others for the express reason that it has the ascension and pentecost detailed in it's pages. Imagine what the scriptures would be without Acts. No, this is not the issue. It's either all God's Word or none of it is. He had his purposes for laying it out the way he did. The key with regard to the epistles is realizing that within those pages we know who we are in Christ, what we have been delivered from, where we are going, etc. It's not an issue of being more important, it's just a key section of the Word for the born again ones. We can argue about whether the gospels are written to us, I guess. But no one can logically argue whether Paul's Epistles are written to us.

I see no insult or argument in giving both VPW and Bullinger credit for making these things known. And I did not say VPW got it from Bullinger. Of course, he might have... It doesn't really matter if God was the author. Right Mike?

Mike wrote: "Jesus' words pre-Pentecost were good, but his post-Pentecost words to Paul, to be echoed in his epistles, are better." I can't agree with you on this one. All Jesus Christ's words carry the same weight in eternity. The "pre-pentecost" words accomplished exactly what they were designed to do. Likewise the "post-pentecost" words also accomplished what they were designed to do. All were needed equally according to God's design. And were said in the order they needed to be said in. As far as the Pauline epistles. It's because of what Jesus Christ did and said that I am thankful to have those epistles. If someone does something great for me, like deliver me from death unto life for example. And someone else explains what was done I have good reason to be thankful. I am not worshipping the messenger, I simply have more reason to praise the Lord. As far as Bullinger originally writing these things... No argument here.

didn't see that coming...not I'm surprised it took as long as it did.

thank you

Mike, Let me say one thing here. I am not going to respond to you as many others do, I am not trying to hurt you. I see how so many take pleasure in the fight with you. I do not. I have stepped out of this forum on a number of occasions intentionally so that I do not get out of line. My goal is to see the body of Christ dwell together in unity and be likeminded. Saying that, I know this will not happen until the return of Christ. You wrote: ?On a practical basis, NEARLY all the KJV verses you believe, I believe, and the way you believe them, but for different reasons. How many people can you say that of? That they have NEARLY all of the same Bible verse beliefs as you?? I am not sure there is anyone that fits into this category, not even my wife. And that is a good thing. There are still too many things I am wrong about, ignorant about. Of course, what I believe is not the standard. THANK GOD! As I said these things will not matter once Christ returns. Having said all of that I appreciate the heart behind your comment. I am sure you see this as a good thing. With regard to my posts and where they came from. Actually you have responded to two articles by VPW, although you may not have realized it. My first post was taken from a Way Magazine article in 1962 (September I think). With the exception of the first two lines everything else is VPW. I changed nothing and wrote the article in its entirety. If you reread it starting with the paragraph where the quote from Revelation is you will have the complete article. I will give you some credit here. Initially you read the article and went on the attack toward me. I almost let you have it at that point but I backed off and questioned your responses to give you the chance to give the article an honest review. Your responses then indicated thoughtfulness to the material and it has kept me from being ugly toward you. Perhaps you realized what I had done. I will say the few objections you had were not toward me but rather VPW. He is the one who called the Bible a book. I have more articles to show his attitude toward the Book of the Bible. Notice I did not say KJV, I also did not say an abstraction. In a subtle way I think maybe you and I agree more than we are saying. I will not go to the extents you do in your characterizations of our current translations because I see that as disrespectful to God who has had to keep these things intact for the last two thousand years. When VPW shows us that the order of the seven church epistles is divine is nothing short of a miracle in my mind. That God could keep the Scriptures that intact for all these years is remarkable, errors in translation aside. I truly do believe that is what VPW meant when he said that we could interpret 85-90% of the Word of God in the verse. It is there to be interpreted, with the right keys. As he said the seven Church epistles are the complete curriculum for the believer. Which brings us to your question. The last article was from a Way Magazine ? Our Times article in November of 1978. If you doubt my veracity about this I will scan the articles so that you can see I at least had something to copy from. You likely will not be able to read them that way (they are already Xerox?s of the originals). You will have to trust I did an adequate job of transcribing. I have more if you want. I am going to offer one thing to you here. I do not argue Dr?s last instructions; I argue your interpretation of why he gave those instructions. He wanted people to get their heads back into the Word. PFAL provided the keys for understanding the seven church epistles (and the rest of the Bible). Not only understanding but also rightly-dividing it. As you have pointed out so clearly, it has not been rightly-divided since the first century church. He wanted people to pick up the keys to unlock the door to the Scriptures again. We can argue about whether he was right, I am sure eternity will tell. I think we are closer now than ever, but not there yet. Perhaps not until Christ returns.

Mike, I am going to try this one more way. Read the article below and read my comments at the end. From this point below will be VPW. I have added nothing and have not knowingly changed even a punctuation. The article is complete. ______________ The Total Education For Every Believer In the seven Church epistles we have the perfection and the presentation of the ?all truth? into which the Spirit was to guide according to John 16:13. These seven Church epistles have the perfect embodiment of the ?all truth? in every facet of life and living. 2 Peter 1:3 says, ?According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue.? Not only is the number seven of the epistles perfect, but the order in which they appear in the Scriptures is perfect. The Epistles to the Thessalonians were written first; yet they stand last in every manuscript because the hope of the return of Christ must be known in the mind of the believer. He must know and believe that Christ is coming back. And yet, in practice, it?s position is last of all the Church epistles for it is the final occurrence in this life here upon earth. The seven churches to which God addressed His Seven epistles by the Apostle Paul are Romans, Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians and Thessalonians. The remaining epistles in the New Testament are either general epistles or epistles addressed to individuals. The seven Church epistles present a complete course for every Christian believer in the Grace Administration in which we live. These seven epistles begin and finish the total education for every believer. They are the spiritual curriculum containing everything necessary for the believer?s standing and state, his walk, his total life. Ignorance of the seven Church epistles has caused no small amount of error and, therefore, born-again believers have been susceptible to and have been blown about with every wind of doctrine. They have no foundation upon which they securely rested and no anchorage of the integrity of God?s Word upon which they could depend. Consequently, they have had no basic principle of truth upon which to judge every standard of teaching and living. Three of the seven Church epistles stand out specifically and distinctly from all the others as being treatises, rather than epistles. These three are Romans, Ephesians and Thessalonians. They contain so much more doctrinal (right believing) teaching as compared with the other four epistles. By treatises, I mean that these three are more elaborate, more exhaustive than the other four epistles that are epistolary. The word ?epistle? basically means a letter, a written message, a communication. The four epistles that are placed between the three treatises are in two pairs with each pair containing, respectively, reproof and correction, in contrast to the other three. Romans, Ephesians and Thessalonians contain doctrine which is instruction-right believing. After Romans comes Corinthians and then Galatians. Corinthians is the reproof and Galatians is the correction. Ephesians again is doctrine. Then comes Philippians which again is reproof; then Colossians which is again correction. Finally comes Thessalonians. Thessalonians is the return of Christ, the gathering together, where there will be no more reproof and no more correction. That?s why there is nothing after it. The order of the epistles is not only perfect, but the reason for the order is divine. And, as such, Thessalonians stands last. It is a waste of time to teach believers the great truths connected with the Lord?s return, from Thessalonians, until they have learned the basic truths in the previous treatises and epistles. They must first and foremost understand what God has made Christ to be unto them and made them to be in Christ, before they will believe and understand the truths concerning Christ?s return from heaven. Until they learn these former truths from the Church epistles addressed to the believers, they will simply continue to be occupied with themselves and will erroneously divide the truths connected with the Lord?s coming. The Book of Romans basically gives us the knowledge of God and his purposes in Christ Jesus. In the Book of Romans we have the gospel of grace, while in Ephesians we have the mystery of this grace totally revealed. In the Book of Romans we see the people of Israel as transgressors and the Gentiles as sinners individually; while in the Book of Ephesians, we see the ?one new man? called out from both Jew and Gentile. In the Book of Romans the saved sinner is declared dead and risen with Christ. In Ephesians the believer is shown as seated in the heavenlies in Christ, while in Thessalonians, this same believer is seen forever in glory with Christ. The Book of Romans takes up the sinner in his lowest depth of degradation. Thessalonians deposits him on the throne of glory to be forever with the Lord. But midway between Romans and Thessalonians, stands Ephesians which gives us God?s view of the saved sinner who by believing has already been seated with Christ-in the heavenlies. In the Book of Romans we are taken out of the miry clay of total defeat; in Ephesians set upon the rock; and then upon the throne according to Thessalonians. Nothing in the entire Word of God is so dynamically real nor, in all Biblical revelation, so unique as Romans, Ephesians, and Thessalonians-standing so distinctly-nothing else like it found anywhere. These epistles are all about us and they are all to us. Thus the entire course or curriculum for the saved sinner, the Christian believer, is completely complete and perfectly perfected in the seven Church epistles. The Book of Romans starts at the lowest point; Thessalonians takes us to the highest. No one can proceed any further in any direction. It is the ?all truth.? The Book of Romans begins with every man dead in trespasses and sins, and ends with him on the throne of glory. The Book of Romans begins with beggars and ends with heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ. Having been brought low, we are lifted up; having been poor, we are made rich; having been dead, we are made alive to be caught up to meet the Lord in the air and so forever to be with the Lord. Yes, in Romans we are justified in Christ; in Thessalonians glorified with Christ where there is no reproof or correction-only praise and thanksgiving. There are no Church epistles addressed to the born-again believers (the saints) beyond this, because there is no higher truth to be taught or learned. This is the ?all truth? into which the Spirit was to guide. The consummation has been reached. This is the highest grade in the school of grace where the Holy Spirit is the great and true divine teacher. It is our education in the school of grace that will make known unto us our proper standing and state in Christ Jesus. And it is certainly something to have such great truth in matters of such great importance. VPW _________ Me again. Do you think the man who wrote this would agree with you if he heard you saying that the best we have now is unreliable and fragmented? I think he would be quite offended. Do you see him propping up PFAL as the epitome of the believers education here? No it's the Scriptures which you have slandered repeatedly in this forum. Perhaps that is not your intention but that is what you are doing. You ask so frequently why I don't believe God can reissue his Word to our generation. I believe he has in the Scriptures. Why don't YOU believe that God is capable of keeping his Word and instructing us where there are errors in translation? Why have you decided the only option now is for him to completely reinvent the wheel? VPW's attitude in this article is certainly one of a higher regard for what is written in the Scriptures than you have shown. I thank God that I have had teachers who have shown me how to rightly-divide the Word, specifically for VPW. And I say that knowing the response a statement like that will garner in this arena. I don't care, I know who I am in Christ and I know these things because of what I have seen in God's Word, the Bible, because of what I learned in PFAL. You take it too far though Mike. If anyone here has thrown the baby out with the bath water it's you. You have relegated the scriptures to a place beneath the writings of PFAL. I say these things with as much of the Love of God as I am capable. I am not trying to provide a stumblingblock for you and I am not going on the attack here. I am simply trying to show you what God has shown me. Peace [This message was edited by dizzydog on July 14, 2003 at 22:06.]

Mike, Your whole response here seems to be a shift from what you have contended on many occasions. This post does not call the Bible an abstraction but rather a "book called the Bible". While I agree with you that no one translation is the Word of God. I have never argued that point. What I take exception to is your calling our current "versions, translations et'al" unreliable. This has been my one great issue with you all along. I know too much of what VPW said not only about the scriptures as a whole but also about many of the specific books of the Bible. And yes I mean the scriptures in their imperfect form. Perhaps I will post some of what he said for your feedback. I think you are splitting hairs. Frankly PFAL never covered everything that is covered in our existing translations. If it did why did we need to reference the scriptures so frequently while taking the classes? Perhaps what the class really accomplished was to provide us with the keys to unlocking and allowing the scriptures to interpret themselves. I know of only one place to find those scriptures, in a book called the Bible. I cannot study an abstraction. So you think there is a difference between my saying the Bible is the Word of God and your saying that it is the "REVEALED Word of God?" When you write "Every word he (VPW) wrote TO US is true. TNDC p.34" Do you really believe that?

"Stop blaming Job, soft or hard. It wasn't his fault. It was an unjust, unprovoked, unwarranted attack." Rafael, I could not agree more. It sort of reminds me of one other individual in the scriptures, Jesus Christ. We have yet to think about what the story of Job must have meant to Jesus Christ when he read the account.

Mike, Are you ready to reconsider my post? I believe there are things in this post that you should consider. Perhaps it will help you. The original follows: You have contended on many occasions that the Bible we have in the current forms is no longer reliable. I think you called them unreliable fragments and tattered remnants. I have contended all along that this is not the case and not the declaration of VPW. Furthermore I have contended that your relationship with Jesus Christ is affected by your attitude toward the Scriptures. In Revelation 19:13 we read, "And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called the Word of God." In this passage of scripture "...his name is called The Word of God." The Word of God is always the same and it is always the Word of God no matter whether it is written in Genesis or in the Book of Revelation. The Name and the Word are identical. Wherever the name of Jesus Christ is used, there you have the person of Christ and the Word of Christ as one and the same. The Bible Word, that which is written in the Book called the Bible, is God?s Word. The Written Word and the Living Word are identical. The Church has not majored this. Our hearts are not believing it. The Bible Word is God?s Word because the Bible is the Word of God. In Luke 8:11, "..The seed is the Word of God." In Isaiah 55:11, "So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it." In 1 Peter 1:23, "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the Word of God, which liveth and abideth forever." In Ephesians 6:17, "...the sword of the Spirit, which is the Word of God." Christ, the seed, the sword, are all referred to as the Word of God. The Word always produces reactions. Acts 7:54, "When they heard these things they were cut to the heart,..." Acts 2:41, "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls." In 2 Timothy 2:15 is that wonderful record, "Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed rightly dividing the word of truth." It does not say that I am to study to show myself approved unto my congregation. I am not commissioned as a man of God to study to show myself approved unto my community. I am to study to show myself approved unto God and God alone. Paul said, "Far be it from me to be judged by you people, because my judge is God." We must live by what the Word of God says, to be approved of God. In Hebrews 4:12 we read "For the Word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." The word "discerner" in the Greek is the word "critic". This is the only time in the entire Bible that this word is used. It says that the Bible Word is a "critic." The Word of God is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart - the inner man. We have come to a terrible day in history because so many people have set themselves up as critics of the Bible, of the Word of God; when the Bible is given to be our critic. What right does any man have to criticize the Word of God. The Word of God is our critic. The Bible is a lamp as well as a light. In Psalms 119:105, "Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path." The Word is the Father God?s presence with us in his absence, manifested in the senses through the gift from the Holy Spirit in us. So the Word is my contact point with the Master. This makes the Word vital and alive. The Bible is not just another book. Your attitude toward the Word is indicative of the place God holds in your life. All revivals are dependent upon the written Word becoming real in the lives of men. It is impossible to separate a man from his words, likewise, it is impossible to separate God from His Word. So the living Word of God on the lips of a man of believing faith takes the place of the absent Christ. If a man?s word is of no value he will soon reason that God?s Word is valueless. Man?s unbelief in the Word of God is largely due to the lack of believing in his own words. When you live in the Word and the Word lives in you, the Word once more becomes flesh among men. Let the Word of God then dwell in you richly for it will be life and health and joy unspeakable.

OK Mike. Respond at your leisure. As far as the number of posts you are responding to... You did invite them.

"No. I mean re-issue His Word in a completely different format, like when He replaced the stars as the bearers of His Word." My post implied God is not able to do that?

My post implied that God forbids this? "When I say God has delivered His Word to us today in this form of PFAL, don't you say "no" and thus forbid this kind of process?" How did I say that in this post? Indeed I believe God is fully capable of keeping his Word throughout all generations.

Mike, Do you think my post forbade God from delivering his Word to us today? How did I disagree with you?

Hi Mike, I thought I would reenter the debate here. You have contended on many occasions that the Bible we have in the current forms is no longer reliable. I think you called it unreliable fragments and tattered remnants. I have contended all along that this is not the case and not the declaration of VPW. Furthermore I have contended that your relationship with Jesus Christ is affected by your attitude toward the Scriptures. In Revelation 19:13 we read, "And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called the Word of God." In this passage of scripture "...his name is called The Word of God." The Word of God is always the same and it is always the Word of God no matter whether it is written in Genesis or in the Book of Revelation. The Name and the Word are identical. Wherever the name of Jesus Christ is used, there you have the person of Christ and the Word of Christ as one and the same. The Bible Word, that which is written in the Book called the Bible, is God?s Word. The Written Word and the Living Word are identical. The Church has not majored this. Our hearts are not believing it. The Bible Word is God?s Word because the Bible is the Word of God. In Luke 8:11, "..The seed is the Word of God." In Isaiah 55:11, "So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it." In 1 Peter 1:23, "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the Word of God, which liveth and abideth forever." In Ephesians 6:17, "...the sword of the Spirit, which is the Word of God." Christ, the seed, the sword, are all referred to as the Word of God. The Word always produces reactions. Acts 7:54, "When they heard these things they were cut to the heart,..." Acts 2:41, "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls." In 2 Timothy 2:15 is that wonderful record, "Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed rightly dividing the word of truth." It does not say that I am to study to show myself approved unto my congregation. I am not commissioned as a man of God to study to show myself approved unto my community. I am to study to show myself approved unto God and God alone. Paul said, "Far be it from me to be judged by you people, because my judge is God." We must live by what the Word of God says, to be approved of God. In Hebrews 4:12 we read "For the Word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." The word "discerner" in the Greek is the word "critic". This is the only time in the entire Bible that this word is used. It says that the Bible Word is a "critic." The Word of God is a critic of the thoughts and intents of the heart - the inner man. We have come to a terrible day in history because so many people have set themselves up as critics of the Bible, of the Word of God; when the Bible is given to be our critic. What right does any man have to criticize the Word of God. The Word of God is our critic. The Bible is a lamp as well as a light. In Psalms 119:105, "Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path." The Word is the Father God?s presence with us in his absence, manifested in the senses through the gift from the Holy Spirit in us. So the Word is my contact point with the Master. This makes the Word vital and alive. The Bible is not just another book. Your attitude toward the Word is indicative of the place God holds in your life. All revivals are dependent upon the written Word becoming real in the lives of men. It is impossible to separate a man from his words, likewise, it is impossible to separate God from His Word. So the living Word of God on the lips of a man of believing faith takes the place of the absent Christ. If a man?s word is of no value he will soon reason that God?s Word is valueless. Man?s unbelief in the Word of God is largely due to the lack of believing in his own words. When you live in the Word and the Word lives in you, the Word once more becomes flesh among men. Let the Word of God then dwell in you richly for it will be life and health and joy unspeakable.

Look Craig, Don and Howard back together again. I think I see Mike, beating the drum...

Nomad, Thanks for the clarification. I always took the warnings literally when they say "No part of this publicaton can be reprinted or copied without the express consent..." yada yada. It would be a bit unreasonable to try to police this in every occurance. Good point about authors wanting their work exposed. Unless of course you are TWI...

Mike wrote: "Thus it was in the family of God attempting to live behind enemy lines." We do live, period. No attempting about it. Our attempting to do anything is as irrelevant now as it was when we were dead in trespasses and sins. And not behind enemy lines but seated in the heavenlies. We live in this world as victors over our adversary not as opponents. Even if the body be killed the outcome is already determined, in our favor. Of course you already know this since you are so Christ centered. [This message was edited by dizzydog on July 11, 2003 at 12:37.]

Never mind the fact that VPW mortgaged headquarters to the "earballs" to buy Emporia. I guess the revelation changed...

Not to stir the pot but there is one other aspect of the legal system that seems to be forgotten here, copyright laws. Some posters, myself included, have quoted various books published by American Christian Press (TWI) and even in some cases other works, i.e. Bullinger, Kenyon, J.E. Stiles et al. Whole sections of these books and tapes have been duplicated here. Particularly by one poster, I will refrain from mentioning his name. This opens another can of worms if a legal team was feeling aggressive enough. Remember, you can sue anyone for anything in the United States. That a litigant won't win is irrelevant to some. You've still had to waste your time, and money, defending yourself.

"The cutting edge of all blessings?" Could it be... Mike=Rush Limbaugh One in the same... Separated at birth... nahhhhh....

And frankly, why would we want to write or say anything that does not preach Christ?

Mike, You wrote: "Let?s be honest. When you first met me a month ago you hadn?t read any of my 900 some posts. Now you say you?ve done a survey of them all and you see my JC Quota low? Did you REALLY check them all?" I am being honest. My point was not how many times you write Jesus Christ. My point was in how often you preach Christ. IF I were to look at every post you have ever written (God help me) I am sure the emphasis would be on VPW, not Jesus Christ. You said yourself that this is a thread about VPW and his teachings. At best VPW was a servant for Christ's sake. My only real point with that post was to show what we are supposed to be glorifying, Jesus Christ. You make your observations about me and I have made a few myself. Your conclusions bring attention VPW and PFAL. My point once again since it seems to have been missed is that the subject of God's Word is Jesus Christ. If we are bringing glory and attention to anything other than Jesus Christ we are focusing on the wrong things and our conclusions about God's Word will be inaccurate. Read 2 Corinthians 4:1-7 again. I am not even going to argue with you about VPW writing something that is God breathed, I never have. I don't care who wrote the scriptures, God is the author (as you have so clearly pointed out). In his Word HE choses to draw our attention to Christ. Christ is the conclusion to all. I have read enough of your posts to see who you draw attention to.

I have a better idea - Let's put this thread in a time box. period

Seaspray, You wrote: "Is this not what God's Word instructs? Hebrews 004:012 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. If Wierwille's writing is "theopneustos", is it any less the Word of God than Ephesians?" If it is the Word, who does the judging? Mike or the Word? The Word is the discerner, not my brother in Christ.