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Those who point out the imperfections of PFAL are easily dismissed by this standard, because they are not part of Mike's elite intended audience and, thus, not worth listening to. They are dismissed with casual comments intended to be insults, such as "you weren't around when Wierwille was, so you couldn't understand," and "you were poisoned by people who did not grab onto something whenever Wierwille walked by." In other words, anyone who looks at Wierwille's written works with an open mind and sees it for what it is automatically and by definition becomes an "unfit researcher," even if all such a person is doing is applying the very advice Wierwille (perhaps cynically) gave to examine his teachings critically.

The interesting thing, Mark, is that PFAL never was the subject of Mike's threads. PFAL specifically sets the words Wierwille wrote in contrast with what it calls the perfect God-breathed Word, and thus discounts itself as part of that Word. Mike takes VPW's imperfect articulation of this simple and straightforward fact and turns it into a declaration that the PFAL books are perfect God-breathed Word, but maybe his letters to his family and friends and/or earlier editions of his books, complete with Trinitarian references, do not rise to that standard. He injects complexity into the simple, thus twisting the meaning to conform to an already multiply disproven thesis. That PFAL fails to live up to its standard of perfection causes those of us who value its lessons to lose no sleep at all. But to Mike, it undermines his thesis to the extent that he must narrow the intended audience so that it becomes a sort of anti-gospel, aimed not at bringing the gospel message to the world, but a secret and ubiquitously hidden message to the elite. PFAL mastery, as Mike defines it, is the exact opposite of the Great Commission. Go ye therefore unto all the older leader grads, baptizing in the name of the Orange Book, the Blue Book, and the Last/Lust Message of The Teaching Doctor Brains and Brawn.

I think the intent of this thread was to keep all the "Mike wars" in one place, so the replies are appropriate in here, Mark. In fact, the other thread specifically said "Take your fight to the new thread." So, regardless of the title of this thread, the intent was to take all this discussion and put it in one place.

Ooh, I had no idea until I read doojable's musings. Very good pictionary, this. Hint: that's not a troll. It's a denouncer of travel myths.

Matthew 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. Luke 7:28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he. Thanks for the google link, CM. Lots of good stuff there for those who don't want to reinvent the wheel.

You can declare that they're different things, and cite VPW as evidence. But you can't make that argument from the words of Christ, because he used the terms interchangeably.

Biblically, there is none. The remainder of your post is irrelevant to the discussion, but I'm glad you can retype what you read. Whether there's a difference between the church of the bride and the church of the body is arguable. I've seen good arguments on both sides. Whether there's a difference between the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven is not arguable. They are Biblically identical. Try reading this other book, called the Bible, to get that point.

Little did we know Chris Geer... ah well, live and learn. The great thing about ditching with Geer, for me (and I presume I can's speak for WordWolf on this) is that leaving when and how we did showed us how to not be a respector of titles and positions. Made it easier to disregard Geer when the time came.

This calls for coffee!

I'll put it this way: If Wierwille had not read Scofield's work, I'd be stunned beyond imagination. It would be like one of us never having read Wierwille.

That's what I thought it meant. A hearty welcome!

It's so easy to say "the negatives in his life." It's far more difficult to say "his lecherous abuse of those who trusted him, the way he twisted God's Word to serve his lusts, the dishonest way he handled God's Word from the beginning of his ministry until the end." Welcome to the Cafe. Does your handle mean what it sounds like it means?

Mike, because I haven't taken you off ignore, I missed this earlier statement. Good one. Of course, you'd know all about resorting to ad hominem attacks, having used them so ineffectually so often since you began posting here. By the way, at least I have the courage to SHOW my face around here. Nice touch, typing "god" with a lower case "g" to get my goat. Where did you get that stroke of brilliance from? Oh yeah, ME! Dude, at least get an original insult. It is good to see you finally acknowledge, however, that you and I worship different deities. I've never found you at anything other than your weak moments.

Fair enough. First things first, when people say there are errors in PFAL, they are not talking about typos or crooked type. This is a silly attempt at distraction from the real issue. Not one error pointed out by anyone has ever said "the type on p. 32 is a little off-kilter: aha! PFAL is not God-breathed." How far does one want to go in pointing out errors? Well, if you want to get utterly nitpicky, you could talk about crooked type and typos. But the only people who have mentioned such errors are you and Mike. Let's try a few things of a little more substance: The Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven are Biblically synonymous. Wierwille said they weren't. The Jews had a name for God that was both pronounceable and pronounced. Wierwille said God had no pronounceable name. How far do we go in discussing errors? Let me reverse it: how many errors (not typos, not page alignment issues) does it take for PFAL to still have the value you ascribe to it, yet not be what Mike claims it to be? According to the standard of PFAL, the answer is one. We've pointed out far more than that, just to confront the error of "PFAL is God-breathed." Do you disagree with every single item on the actual errors list? ALL of them? Or do you believe PFAL to be error-free (typos and page/text alignment notwithstanding)? By the way, I will concede that the existence of typos or misaligned text or anything else of that trivial miniscule irrelevant nature does not disprove Mike's thesis. Why, they make all the difference int he world between a perfect, inerrant word of God and a crumbled, jumbled piece of writing, or something like that. That's PFAL's standard.

Neither do I, and I demonstrate why, and whenever I do, I get nothing but grief from you. Why don't you agree with all of Mike's conclusions?

And there you go changing my words again. I did NOT say "PFAL Mastery=idolatrous pigswill." Can you even read? Tell you what, I'll give you a pass on that ignorant statement since you were probably writing it before I added an explanation in an edit. But Jeez, the way you guys twist words to mean something other than that which is plainly stated leads me to understand fully why you take the positions you take.

What the Hey, Do you think I should rename "10 Good Things About the Blue Book," and change it to "10 Good Things About Idolatrous Pigswill"? Why would I say something like that if I thought everything Wierwille wrote is idolatrous pigswill? Because, What the Hey, my statement has nothing to do with the content of PFAL. Neither do most of Mike's posts. The content of PFAL contradicts his message. The idea that someone must know PFAL inside and out to point out an actual error is ludicrous. I don't know the first thing about filmmaking, but I know that Ed Wood was lousy at it. I don't know everything about PFAL, but I know there are errors in it.

What the Hey, I see that reading comprehension is not your only problem, but basic mathematics and logic as well. Mike's posts=idolatrous pigswill. Mike's post=Master PFAL (I'd argue this point, but let's accept it for the purpose of your elementary school education). THEREFORE: "Master PFAL" = "idolatrous pigswill." Note: it does not say "the contents of PFAL=idolatrous pigswill." It says "the message propounded by Mike that PFAL is something that must be mastered because it is THE Word of God, without contradictions and without errors, and VPW taught things Jesus Christ had to learn, and the earth shook where VPW walked, and his victims are less innocent than he because they failed to follow his last/lust instructions=idolatrous pigswill." I have never called PFAL idolatrous pigswill. I can't help it if you can't understand that, but I can refer you to your nearest grammar school. I believe these topics are covered in grade four, grade five at the latest.

ROA 1989. Major turnoff: inaccurate teachings, condescension from all levels, and LCM as our "spiritual head." BARF.

My bet is on the Seahawks winning the Super Bowl this year. I'd say our chances are about equal.

The glorification of Christ is not on Mike's agenda. It's all about obeying Dr, being humble to Dr, being meek to Dr. Christ is an afterthought.

I just like you guys.

Indeed. You can't cry foul over a trademark you don't own, particularly when you can establish that you had it first. The other big bad rich guy could be forced to change HIS name, or pay you for the rights.

Those who understand English already know that I've never called PFAL "idolatrous pigswill." It's a phrase I reserve for Mike's posts.

What the Hey, I really don't have time to teach you basic reading comprehension today. I recommend you start with Hooked on Phonics and graduate to the I Can Read series of books. Let me know when you're on Dr. Seuss.