Raf

I can't contradict you, or offer an effective counterargument. I am utterly unqualified to say anything about Momentus. If you have a point here, it's one I'm incapable of seeing for the obvious reason that I never took Momentus, and came into contact with CES only after it abandoned Momentus.

In normal, untainted language, looking to the past with a mindset of "I went through hell, but I can pull some good out of it" is healthy, even if the only good you can pull out of it is "I ain't gonna do that again."

Excy,

Depends on you you're counting. The JDubs have, currently, 6,000,000 members worldwide. At it's PEAK, TWI had between one and two percent of that number (and that's assuming all 100,000 people who took PFAL stuck with TWI, not a safe assumption). It's far more likely that two TWI people will know each other than two JWs.

Tell me if I'm wrong: in many cities, all TWI members knew each other.

In JW land, you're Mr. Popular if you know more than half the people in your congregation.

Actually, the entire quote is...

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I am more aware than most of the grievous abuses laid upon many of God’s precious people when they were in The Way . Perhaps you are one who was so abused. The point is that now the choice is yours as to how you see your past involvement in The Way. In our lives, we are not the sum total of what has happened to us, but rather how we have responded to what has happened. In that vein, "it’s never too late to have a happy childhood." What I mean by that is that you can ask the Lord to help you arrive at a healthy perspective of whatever happened to you. In his infinite resourcefulness, he can somehow turn it into something you can use to help someone else.

In regard to your involvement in The Way , you could choose to be a victim, but may I suggest that is not the best perspective...

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Entirely looking at "where do you go from here?" Not at all blaming the victim for his/her role in getting abused.

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NOw just exactly how are my three kids, the oldest being ten when the involvement with TWI ended, supposed to view FIVE YEARS OF SEXUAL ABUSE by their father/stepfather and the Twig Coordinator in a "Positive Manner"?!?!?!?

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You don't. But do you blame God for it? Or do you blame their father/stepfather? It's a perspective thing. I don't think (and I could be wrong) that JAL is saying you chose to be victims then.

MO,

The comment "you could choose to be a victim" is presented in the letter solely in terms of how you're going to view yourself in the future: there is no implication that anyone chose to be a victim in the past.

Good reminder: we pretend we "know" each other because of postings on a message board. I don't really know you, MJ, and I have no right to call you paranoid or even bitter. I can give an impression of the posts, but it takes much more to get an impression of the poster. I don't think you're bitter. I think you have a sincere desire to warn people about an organization you consider, on some level, dangerous. (Maybe that word is too strong. Cultic).

I think there's a danger when we try to hold the actions or histories of "leaders" to a high standard. We want to call people out on their hypocrisy. We teach that marriage is a lifetime commitment, but we get a divorce? HYPOCRITES! (Hey, wait, that includes me!). We preach against lying, but we're caught in a lie? HYPOCRITES! (Hey, wait, that includes... everyone!) We preach that adultery is wrong, but we commit adultery? HYPOCRITES! (Hey, wait, that includes... more people than anyone in any church would like to admit).

Adultery is wrong. It's wrong if I commit it. It's wrong if I don't. If I commit adultery, I am exposed as a hypocrite. But the doctrine remains sound.

My problem with Wierwille and Martindale is not that they committed adultery (by reports and accounts, they did worse than that, but let's stick with adultery for the sake of this discussion). My problem with them is not that they committed adultery, it's that they excused it, doctrinally. It's one thing to preach against adultery and then commit it. That's a bad thing. But to not preach against adultery at all? Far worse. The error is compounded. No, you can't be accused of hypocrisy. But they can be accused of twisting the Word of God for their own selfish lusts.

I'd rather be convicted of sinning against God than be convicted of leading others, including myself, to sin against Him.

I don't know if John L or John S committed adultery. If they did, God have mercy on them and I pray they've resolved/repaired that sin in their lives. It's between them and God. But they can't be accused of leading others to do the same. At least, not now.

People, sinners, need room to grow. Not one of us is perfect.

That's why I bristle at criticism of JAL or JS that's based on the fact that they're divorced. They have my sympathy. I know what it's like. It hurts like hell. If they're anything like me, they condemned themselves far more than anyone else did or could.

Proving the charge of hypocrisy is, unfortunately, too easy. Every minister, every last one, is a sinner. All of them. All. Without exception or distinction. You want my list? No problem... but you first. :)-->

No one will convince CES followers to move away from the organization by pointing out the fact that JAL and JS are sinners. JAL and JS beat you to the punch: We all know they're sinners. We know more than we have to.

I think honest Christians should be far more troubled that, when they saw a conflict between the words of Christ and CES doctrine, they said the doctrine is right and Christ was wrong. They make an interesting case for this belief, but one muct ignore certain clear Biblical claims and mandates in order to accept the CES view on this. Jesus said he spoke the words His Father gave him. Jesus said he always does the will of the Father. If he was wrong about a prophecy, then he spoke presumptuously and was a false prophet. "He didn't know about the administration of the Mystery" is not an acceptable excuse, because it presumes that Jesus spoke important words presumptuously.

Every single person in CES should seriously consider the depth of that teaching. Are you willing to stand up and say "Jesus was wrong! Jesus spoke without checking with God first!"

I'm not.

I'd rather take the hits that come with not understanding every jot and tittle of the Bible than ever have the audacity to accuse my Lord of speaking presumptuously.

From what little I've heard about transient global amnesia, episodes are known to be triggered by physical exertion.

See. a. doctor.

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Jal divorce was not the issue he was suspended from RAF. far from it they had been divorced for years at that point !

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I didn't say it was the issue. You brought up the divorce, separately. Then you said he was "fired." You did not present those two issues as related. Neither did I.

I should rephrase what I meant:

I don't think, for a second, that JAL needs any help defending his positions on message boards, or that he would ask for any help doing such. By and large, I have found that these guys don't care all that much about what's said here. He would sooner ignore all this than call for reinforcements.

As for rallying people to CES: yes, of course that's what he does. He's always done that.

Once again, MJ, our blow up is based more on misunderstanding each other than understanding. Forgive me for my part in that, and let's both keep in mind for the next time we have a blow up.

Which, by the way, I'm looking forward to. :)-->

Perhaps my "distance" has skewed my judgment. Or at least made me less willing to exercise that judgment.

It is a lot more comfy where I sit. I send a check, I get tapes, a discount on books, and no hassles whatsoever. They've made no attempt to influence anything I've done on my web site (except when I asked for their assistance).

Yeah, maybe I'm too comfy. Maybe I've got a twice-bitten, thrice shy attitude about the whole thing. I get involved, but I keep it at arm's length. They don't control me, and they haven't tried to. When I'm uncomfortable, I say so, publicly (which is wrong: I should say it to them first). But I haven't even gotten reproof on that. They've been totally "live and let live" with me.

Too comfy: I think you may have me on that one.

And MJ: I know you're trying to sound a just warning. If I'm unkind in my challenge, forgive me, but the challenge is fair: warn people about what's really there, not about what you project is there based on your mistrust of them.

My deep concern with CES, which I've termed my "crisis of commitment" is based on a number of very real factors:

They excuse false prophecy, and would rather declare Jesus wrong than themselves. Both are a little more complicated than that, but if those two truths don't get people to think very, very carefully about their CES involvement, mentioning JAL's divorce will not.

Well, I apologize for misunderstanding you, MJ.

This is another possibility: not sure if it's related, but it is serious...

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Transient global amnesia is the term for a sudden episode of severe memory loss and confusion that generally happens for no apparent reason. The name stems from the fact that it's temporary and can affect one's entire memory process.

With transient global amnesia, one usually knows one's own identity, but can't recall recent events and information. Usually, long-term memory is preserved.

The amnesia may last for as little as 30 minutes to as long as 24 hours or more. Memory of events during the spell is permanently lost.

Cause

The condition is rare and usually occurs in middle-aged and older adults. Its cause is a mystery.

Treatment

There's no treatment and most people recover fully with no side effects. There's no evidence that transient global amnesia increases the risk for other neurologic problems, such as stroke or epilepsy.

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MJ, that's judgmental.

Do you honestly believe JAL needs to rally people to his cause to get them over here to defend his integrity? That CES followers feel AFRAID to use the Internet? Or message boards. Because if you really feel that way, that's paranoia. It's not based on anything resembling reality.

But I'll tell you what: I'll rescind my paranoia comment and apologize for it. I'm sorry I said "paranoia."

Instead, I'll say this: If you really, really feel that way...

Prove it.

P.S. I'm not trying to shut you up. I'm tired of that false accusation too.

Who made this about you?

I said your "history" was revisionist. I stand by that. You accused me of spin. That's fine, you're entitled to do so. Then you accused me of sugarcoating in order to keep people calm. BULL. Then you accuse me of buying their line "hook line and sinker." BULL. Everyone knows I have problems with CES and I've made no bones about that, but you accuse me of buying their line "hook line and sinker." You're either misinformed or lying. I've repeated this enough times to no longer believe you're misinformed, but I don't think you're deliberately lying. Forgetful, maybe. So let me remind you: I do not buy the CES line "hook line and sinker." And I'm tired of your false accusations to the contrary.

I've said good and bad about CES, but you only seem to fly off the handle when I say something good.

Lighten up.

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the difference and the only difference is CES is much more sly and sneaky and full of only those with ears to hear secrets . they got good at it when twi fell and learned .

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I apologize, MJ. You can have your judgment seat back.

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Originally posted by mj412:

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Originally posted by Raf:

MJ,

You've misrpresented the past, you're misrepresenting the present... can the future be far off?

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what is this Raf?

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The rock solid truth, MJ.

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I don't think Jeff is here to attack. I don't think John Lynn would come here to attack. I DO think they would come here to draw attention to their own site in an indirect attempt at recruitment.

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With all due respect to both, I don't even think it's an indirect attempt. It's direct.

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and do not start with the typical personal attacks that shuts them up quick where ya learn that big boy?

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Apparently from you. You're the only one in this discussion employing that tactic.

I've heard that "prophetess" stuff too.

Icky. I agree.

Also not nuts about their spin that a prophet can make a prediction that turns out to not be true, and that's okay. It's not okay.

As I said on the other thread: there are good reasons to be concerned with CES, doctrinal reasons. Your "spin" is based on nothing more than paranoia.

MJ,

There are good reasons to oppose CES, but you make it sound like they've banned people from the Internet and are now coordinating a response to this thread.

HORSEHOCKEY.

You've misrpresented the past, you're misrepresenting the present... can the future be far off?

I thought he was registered already. I know he posted once or twice, but maybe that was at Waydale.

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John lynn was fired by his own company and brought back a year later when things calmed down about what he did.

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This is revisionist nonsense.

John stepped down because he and the others thought it was best. He took a year off from ministry, and all said from the beginning that it would be a year off. They didn't wait for things to "calm down." Any Greasespot reader knows that it can take decades for something to "calm down."

And if I recall correctly, there was plenty of debate both then and now as to whether JAL even did anything so egregious that it merited him taking the year off.

Point taken.

Perhaps you forget that I never objected to that thread. But that doesn't invalidate your point.

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...if you're the kind of person that has a laugh at internet fights, grab some popcorn. There's a pretty good one starting up at JWO...

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If you're not the kind of person that has a laugh at Internet fights, the rest of the post, and the thread, is not addressed to you.

The post also alerts people who might be interested that Satori has resurfaced. I find that interesting.

Zixar then addresses someone who's already at the other site (and here), not trying to get anyone else involved in it.

So, two reasons: 1. There's a good fight going on if anyone's interested.

2. Satori has resurfaced.

Good enough reason to start a thread? Is there a committee to determine these things, now? How did I miss that announcement?