David Anderson

Hey Krys, there's a better one than that in Ecclesiastes, "Wisdom is better than weapons of war, but a little evil destroys much good."

Hello Outthere. Since starting this thread I've posted 112 of the 687 comments on this thread. I can't think of a thing that I can add to what I've already written that would help answer your question. As for the other 575 posts, I am powerless to eliminate the bulls**t from them so you're on your own in trying to seperate truth from lies, distortions, and out and out malice, from them. There are some insights in them but they are few and far between. Best wishes, Dave

Jim, I'm about as serious as an icebreaker on Lake Superior in below zero temperatures trying to keep the shipping lanes open. But the ice is getting pretty thick and so the folks at port may just have to wait til spring for their precious cargo to arrive.

Hey Jim, in case you missed it, the purpose of this thread was to enable people to make their own oxygenated water so they wouldn't have to spend $40 a case for it- and then they could store it in any container they liked. But your bigger question, as to why the fish died from the water you stored in plastic containers, I would presume it was from too much BOD (biological oxygen demand) in the tap water you used- that consumed all the free oxygen in the water so there was none left for the fish when you got around to giving it to them. You see, BOD is a lot like the 50+ posts to this thread since my last post- they consume oxygen, survive at the expense of others, and add nothing to the discussion. EPA would call them pollutants- sort of like the overflow from septic tanks that gets discharged into rivers, creeks, and Lake Erie, which we then drink. The only way to get rid of them, without adding other posions, is to boil the water and kill them. But try puting your tropical fish in distilled water and see what happens. You can buy distilled water for $1 a gallon, but probably can't get that in glass either. Maybe you're not old enough to remember, but there was a time when most liquids came in glass containers- and lots of kids cut themselves on broken glass. So plastic came along as an answer to that problem. And plastic coated cans answered the complaints of the beer drinkers. But your fish will surely die from distilled water since it also has no oxygen in it. But if you aerate the distilled water, or better yet saturate it with pure oxygen, they will be tickled pink. FedGov is going to spend millions to do a study on why there is no oxygen in the deep water at places in Lake Erie in August. If they'd spend the money on tankers filled with liquid oxygen instead and then used known science to oxygenate the lake, the fish would be happier. Ah, but that would be too simple- and would invite the scorn of all the nay-sayers of the world that would rather talk than fish. But there is hope, because I know of five tanker trucks of liquid oxygen a week that go up to Detroit from the Ohio River plant that generates oxygen, either for their waste treatment plants or their drinking water plants- maybe they're the same plant, a modern miracle of recycling! And in fifty years we'll know if people lived longer or shorter lives on average in Detroit, due to some engineers decision to add oxygen somewhere to the municipal water stream. One thing you can bet on is that the engineer used known laws of physics, chemistry, and physiology rather than double blind studies, to back up his decision.

Raf said, Hey Raf, did you mean that? I've been waiting with baited breath for your report on your findings. A gal from Atlanta stopped by yesterday on her way back home from visiting family in Michigan and left with a corny keg, oxygen regulator, hose and fittings to make oxygen saturated water. All she needs now is an oxygen bottle so you'd better hurry if you want to be the first from GSC to actually make their own Pneuma Water. But not to worry, the corny keg was filled with cold, distilled, water under 60 psig oxygen pressure so you have a little time until it is consumed. What with a husband and two kids, it may take all of three days til she needs more (assuming their liquid intake is 3# per day each and they drink only Pneuma Water.) Oh, and in difference to you and your comments about burping, I tapped and drank a 16 ounce glass of the water as fast as I could a while back to see if I'd burp. The water was as close to freezing as I could get it so theoretically it contained four times 75 ppm oxygen when it came out of the tap or 300 ppm. And I must confess that I did burp. Well, it wasn't really a burp as we know them- more like a tiny complaint rather than Mt. St. Helens going off- not to be compared to what would happen had I been able to chug a 16 oz. bottle of cold, just opened, soda pop in the same amount of time (which I doubt I could even do). But there you have it, an admission of my being wrong about the possibility of burping. Actually, when I started this thread I had in mind the old addage, "Give a man a pair of shoes and he'll need shoes again. Teach a man how to make a pair of shoes and he'll always have shoes." I just didn't know I'd need a flack jacket in the classroom! Best wishes, Dave

A week or so ago I bought some oranges and made some fresh orange juice to see how much oxygen was in the juice. Looks like about 17-18 ppm. Don't know how long the oranges were on the shelf or what the oxygen content would be with oranges picked right off the tree, but it's bound to be higher. What started this little investigation was the fact that I can buy frozen concentrate for 89 cents that makes 48 ounces of juice (about a day's supply of water if you don't like drinking water by itself). Buying the juice istelf costs a lot more and has zero oxygen content because of the pasturization process. So I bought some frozen concentrate, used 75 ppm oxygenated water to mix with it, and never had better tasting orange juice in my life. Just another reason to make your own oxygenated water.

Linda Z, you may know that this thread almost died the other day, but it was no natural near death experience. (see Jonny Lingo's thread "What happened to my thread" in the event you don't know what happened and why). Actually, what I liked about you when I first met you was not how many times you took PFAL but that you started a bible study in a junk yard- and you didn't have a white sheet on burning crosses in somebody's front yard. The white sheet folks have many reasons why they need to remain anonomous, and no doubt they've come to think the habit is acceptable because they've experienced FEDGOV's "annonomous complaint" habit of the last half century or so- corporate governance at it's worst. As Chief Justice Brandise wrote way back when, "For good or for ill, the government is the preeminent teacher" and it teaches by it's example, not it's words or publications. Fortunately the KKK like behavior of some on this thread and site is held in check by people that have real names and real faces standing among them. No doubt the cross burners hate that because even if their friends don't rat on them, just their standing among them carries the risk that they might if put to the test. Hey, maybe we're safe from actual hangings for a while. As for your earlier comment about the thread being unpopular, that depends on one's definition of unpopular. If it's measured by the number of views or the post to view ratio, it's right up there at the top since it started six months ago- and last month, dispite the bashing and my returning the favor, there were over 1,600 views of the thread and the views per post went up from 17 to 19. Why some even learned about the abdominal lymph system, ant anatomy, hyperbarics and that Krys finally realized oxygen could be carried in the body by methods other than being bound by hemoglobin- a lesson hard won perhaps, but won nevertheless. There was a time when she thought hyperbarics was off subject! So please forgive me if I take a stick and poke at a white sheet every once in a while to see if there's a real person under it and not a robot. You may be comfortable with annonimity, I am not. For every legitimate reason for it there are a thousand illegitimate ones. I happen to find the sujbect of adding oxygen to water to be quite interesting, simple to do, with potentially profound results from it to be found. I can take the cheep shots, and give them out as well- it's what happens when people want to hide their identity and still presume they have an equal right to freedom of speech. No telling how many folks from the anti KKK groups get in for free to the action simply because it's a way to submarine everything they don't like- just put on a white sheet and pretend- "law enforcement" is great at doing that, and appears to be doing it more frequently, and more objectionably, as the nation and it's people become more lawless at all levels. What used to be common decency isn't very common any more.

Hey Jonny, sorry to have brought the hecklers out to respond to your simple question. I guess it's the price of admission to this forum. But it did bring others aw well and so we now have some answers that we didn't have before: 1. Can moderators view posts as they are being written? No 2.Can we know who the moderators are? No 3.Is Krysilis a moderator? No 4.Can the originator of a thread pull it if he's not a moderator? No 5.Can Pawtucket run this site without moderators? No 6. Do moderators have to notify the originator of a thread that it was pulled and where it was placed? No 7. Is moving threads simply a matter of good housekeeping? No 8. Will I be starting any other threads given these rules? No

Nice try Krys. After my posting here the person who pulled the plug on the thread I started sent me an email stating that she had put it in the archives because she just hated me being bashed so much. So I replied that, if she could, she'd probably ban the bible from being published because bible bashing is still a popular sport, and has been ever since the printing press first printed it in 1450 A.D.. Who knows, without the Pope and other authority figures enjoying their monopoly, the printing press might have been invented hundreds of years before that time. The trouble is that the thread I started was pulled during the four hours I spent composing a reply to Linda Z's question of why I suposedly called you arrogant- and four hours of my time is therefore lost. So my question, pertinent to this thread, is weither or not the moderators of this forum have the ability to read posts as they are being composed. If so, they can just yank the thread if they really don't like the composition, and so they become the ultimate censors, looking over one's shoulder even as he writes. I did look at the oxygenated water thread since reading your post above and my last reply on the thread that I started is not there. Since you're evidently a moderator (the person who pulled the thread stated that pulling it was discussed on the moderators forum subsequent to my post on this thread- otherwise I find it incredible that you would have found where it was archived so fast and posted the location on this thread after saying you were through with that thread), perhaps you can retrieve the composition I was in the process of posting, and post it to the thread I started. As for your evident assumption that I don't read other threads because I don't post to them, that assumption is wrong- just like the assumption is wrong that the 10,165 views of the thread I started are no more people than those that contributed the 605 posts- a large number of them, posted by relatively few people, adding no substance to the discussion at all- including those who post that I'm worthless, or somehow derilect, because I don't generally post to other threads. Now if all the moderators would get together and decide to allow the originator of a thread to pull the thread as well as themselves, or at least edit out the irrelevant (in their view) material from it, then we'd see how many people still read it for content and how many just wanted to bash- sort of like kicking a person out of a church service or bible study aught not be religated merely to the "leader" but include the owner of the house or church where it is being held. Then we'd see who was arrogant and who was not! Better yet, how about a list of moderators to this site being published, complete with real names and addresses, so we could visit them like we do the neighbors. Annonymous posters and readers are one thing, annonymous censors are something else entirely. With privilege sould come some measure of responsibility commensurate with the privilege.

Looks like the same junk yard dog bit me yesterday Jonny. Seems the "Open Forum" is less open than I thought.

Krys, I think you have arrogance confused with anger. So to clarify allow me to put up a verbal mirror so you can take a look at yourself. In your December 8 post you wrote "... that leads me to think you came here to sell your system for oxygenating and distilling water", questioning my motives early on- hardly in the category of "good will to men". Then you suggested the topic of hyperbarics was off topic and should be handled in a private topic forum- which after six months now reveals that you've seen the relationship to the topic and after 20 years of teaching biology now discover that oxygen can get around the body in ways other than being carried by hemoglobin. And after trying Penta Water yourself and finding it helpful you accuse me of being arrogant! My peers would say I was stupid for ever trying to discuss the subject on this forum, but would hardly call me arrogant. If you could walk a mile in my shoes you'd know. Nevertheless, you've done me a favor because an endorsement of the topic from an adversary is far more powerful, at least in a court of law, than an endorsement from a friend. But in a court of law you first have to get sworn in and that means identifying yourself to the court. Even a meeting, presumably under Robert's Rules of Order if no others, requires a person to identify themself. But here, under the bogus premise that the site is designed to help people leaving twi, equal weight is suposedly given to everybody- the old Rodney King line, "Why can't we all just get along?" The answer to that question is obvious. To put it in words of a person well hated by many on this site, "You can't have peace without the Prince of Peace." But after six months now, I question how many posters here ever even went through PFAL let alone stayed in the organization long enough to have serious problems when leaving- the presumed design of this forum is to minister to them. Those who might have such problems surely are not going to get them solved by agnostics, athiests, etc., and total ignorance of any kind of Christian code of conduct. You may not like my code of conduct because it does not include pretending everyone is a nice guy. There are murderers, thieves and plunderers out there and I dare say some people have posted here that would love to assisinate the idea that oxygenated water is good for your health, and one doesn't even know if they ever had the sligtest affiliation with twi or the Bible, including you. If my recognition of Jesus Christ as the one I work for is what you mean by arrogant, then pity you. I'm not ashamed of that or of my degrees, or experience, or knowledge. But I'm an old warrior with lots of scars and so have an attitude to go with them. So maybe I'll apologize to a warrior who is quite my senior in battle, but little chance I'll do so to a raw recruit. Or to put it another way, apologize for not providing shoes to someone who doesn't have them when I've had my feet blown off. By the way, hyperbaric treatment does not supersaturate hemoglobin, which to the best of my knowledge can only carry a maximum of four oxygen molecules.

Hey Steve, had you read this thread you would have known that my cigarette consumption was about cut in half after drinking oxygenated water. Took me four months to realize that my cigarette stash hadn't gone down to reorder time near as fast as normal. Why the savings on cigarettes alone made it well worth my time to make the water. I guess I didn't say that i've been smoking now for some fifty years. And you can't imagine how boring it is to hear the self-righteous, do-gooders tell me I shouldn't smoke because it's bad for my health. Many of them are now dead and I'm still in excellent health- except for cateracts that have been developing for ten years now. I even had one guy tell me the cateracts were caused by the oxygenated water! Anymore, in the absence of any scientific proof other than pseudoscience and it's statistical hooky-pookisms, that smoking affects longevity (ie. about 5% of the population that dies each year dies from lung cancer, whether smokers or non smokers), I just reply that the Bible says that the Word of God is life to those who find it and health to all their flesh, and then ask them how many people they think die prematurly because they don't read their Bibles. That usually shuts them up (but obviously won't here- the naysayers being so much smarter than everyone else- and all without an ounce of effort to actually study a topic!)

Hello Linda, glad to see you're still following this thread. You may be one of the few that have posted here that does not need hyperbaric treatment! Many posting here appear to have no oxygen going to their brain at all. (and the brain in a normal human being consumes about 20% of the body's oxygen- no wonder insects are not known for their brilliance, they have enough oxygen supplied through the skin to get by but not enough to do such brain intensive things as read, think and ponder, let alone have anything of substance to say as a result of their mental activities.) To answer your question, the hyperbaric hospital was built at 18485 Lake Shore Boulevard, eight miles east of downtown Cleveland on 13 acres or lakefront property. It was finished in December of 1928. But for the stock market crash of 1929 and consequent depression, it might have still been in operation today. The money to build it was furnished by Henry H. Timken, of Timkin Bearing fame, who's life Dr. Orval J. Cunningham had saved from uremic poisoning in his hyperbaric chamber in Kansas City, MO. four years earlier. Since he knew he was not dead, and would have been without "The Tank" and it's doctor in Kansas City, he offered Dr. Cunningham an equal partnership in the world's largest pressure tank, for which he would put up a million dollars and his companies expertese in Canton, Ohio to build. It was a 64 foot diameter steel tank with five stories and 350 ten inch portholes to let light in and to be able to see out of. The ground floor was a dining area and the top floor a gaming room for the rich and famous. The middle three floors contained a total of 36 double bedrooms, each with a private bath (hmmm, they could bathe in oxygen enriched water!) The entire hospital was air conditioned so that the temperature was 68-70 degrees and 65-68 percent relative humidity. Along with the spherical hospital was two tanks like Dr. Cunningham had built in Kansas City, a luxury hotel, a residence for Dr. Cunningham, and a building to house the huge air compressors and other equipment that supported the hospital. Like all hyperbaric chambers before it, it used only compressed air rather than 100% oxygen, since the building of facilities to make the latter was still in it's infancy and therefore the cost was prohibative. The normal treatment was a week in the hospital, at a pressure of 3 ATA (about 30 psig), and a week in the hotel, for as long as the symptoms dictated, both places decked out to the nines so the rich and famous would feel like they were in their own homes. Without going into detail about Dr. Cunningham's detractors, they were like some of the posts on this thread. They start with a flawed premise, embellish it with disinformation and hatred, accuse of not being properly tested and sanctioned by the AMA and ignore the thousands of patients each year that had benifited from the treatment- from the time Dr. Cunningham had built his first chamber in 1918. Going back two hundred fifty years before Cunningham, a guy named Henshaw in England built the first hyperbaric chamber (in 1662), more than a hundred years before oxygen was discovered by Priestly in 1771. By the middle of the 19th century there were scores of pneumatic chambers in Europe, from Stockholm to Paris, from London to Berlin- with medical reports and research to go with them. Without these there wouild have been no submarines in the Civil War and no Broklyn Bridge in 1879. The building of that bridge brought out the serious problem of Caisson Disease, now known as The Bends, which was not a problem of the therapy but rather a problem of the rate of decompression after the therapy. It was the same problem that turned the popularity of hyperbaric chambers in Europe into disrepute since they didn't know what the bends was and therefore didn't control the rate of decompression. Fortunately for Dr. Cunningham, he had access to the medical reports from the time hyperbaric chambers were popular in Europe and so knew about decompression sickness and compensated for it. When the East River Tunnels for the Pensylvania Railroad were built in 1909, there were 3,692 cases of decompression sickness reported from the building of them, 20 of which were fatal. Evidently many of the workers were in a hurry to get home after work and so cheated on decompression time. With all this "ancient" information, why is it that at the Greasespot Cafe in 2005 there are those who still want someone else to spend money on double blind studies and get published in AMA certified medical journals? By the way, thanks Krys for the link. Just the mention of 30,000 research papers already published on the subject should be enough to keep the nay-sayers busy for a long time- not that they will read any of them! I spent some two hours just going over the titles of the recommended reading list given there by Dr. Cranton. Anybody that wants to purchase any of these and send them to me is welcome to do so. My address is P.O. Box 17, Novelty, Ohio 44072. I'll do my best to report back what I learned (and Belle can continue to post about it being a boring subject since no one can stop her from doing so.) But regarding the Cleveland Sanitorium, it changed ownership in 1934 and was bought for a half million dollars. But the new owner could not make the payments and so Mr. Timken took it back and gave it to the Cahtolic Youth Organization. They sold it for scrap in 1942, supposedly for the "war effort"- price $25,000. And if you believe Cleveland ever had a shortage of iron ore or the blast furnaces to make steel from it, I'll sell you some ocean front property in Arizona- "war effort" indeed! Actually, the fellow who bought the hospital, and changed it's name to The Ohio Institute of Oxygen Therapy in 1934, was the son of the Remmington Rand president, and as a kid went through his mother dying as a consequence of flying in an airplane in spite of Dr. Cunningham's protestations. She had suffered from high blood pressure in her thirties and when her husband heard of "The Tank" in Kansas City, took her there for treatment. With her blood pressure lowered by the therapy she'd return home and go back when it again rose to life threatening levels. During one of these visits her husband flew out in an airplane he'd bought from Henry Ford and she couldn't wait to fly in her new present. Dr. Cunningham strongly advised against it, pointing out that in essence she was decending to an elevation of 5 miles below sea level in his chamber to get enough oxygen to lower her high blood pressure (the Tank was set at 20 psig) and now she wanted to immediately do the opposite and fly in an airplane. But she couldn't resist and never made it home. She died on a train after the airplane landed in Lima, Ohio. So her husband sent the 14 year old son to study as an apprentice with Dr. Cunningham. He later became an expert in hyperbaric therapy and was named Cleveland's Man of the Year in 1949 for his invention of shock therapy for cardiac arrest. The father also funded his alma mater, Harvard, with $100,000 to study hyperbaric therapy. And this all was before the second half of the twentieth century even began. So much for hyperbaric therapy and oxygenated water being "new".

My, my, what was it about my last post that caused the jerks to come out in full force? Was it the fact that I dared to quote scripture? Or maybe they figured I was calling them sluggards. Or maybe ants and oxygenated water are far to insignificant to talk about on this forum of unbelievers, no-names, and know-it-alls. It seems the decent folks are in the minority here, as in the rest of the world. And some wonder why I don't start or post to other threads, as if that's the unforgivable sin. Actually, the Apostle Paul talks about those who are dead in their trespasses and sins, without God and without hope in the world- which I presume is more insulting than merely saying there are some jerks around. Fact is that dead people really stink up the place and there appear to be more than a few on this site. They want to define the limits of the site and who can say what and where. But dead people never defined a thing for me, nor are they any threat to the living if properly burried or burned. Letting them lay around fermenting is a shame. So lest they think they ever have the last word on anything, a few more comments on the subject of oxygenated water for those who are not dead and actually have an interest in the subject- in spite of the stink allowed by a presumption that the unbeliever has an equal voice on this site. Bad presumption in my view but I can live with it. A friend of mine named Linda has not been in good health for a long time, starting maybe twenty years ago with a botched surgery on her eyes. She's been on beta blockers for a long time, had carotid artery surgery a few years ago, and the past year has suffered from frozen shoulder. Five or six months ago she started drinking the water I give to her and as a consequence does not feel faint headed and about ready to collapse when she gets out of bed in the morning or up from a chair during the day. At least not near as often. When it gets really bad she loses sight in half of one eye and knows she is close to having to be admitted to the hospital- at least that is what happened prior to her carotid atery surgery. She hasn't had that happen since starting to drink the water, and she drinks about three pounds a day of it, which is what the text books say is the normal needs of the body for water. The dead people around here will start cherping about the need for double blind studies but I could care less about that, or if they ever drink a drop of oxygenated water. I do care greatly about my friend Linda and am happy to report her findings. Some time ago I mentioned adding aetone to gasoline as a similar case of what a relatively large effect the addition of a pinch of this or that can have. Since it was only something I had read about and not yet tried out myself, I didn't say more about it. But since then I've gone through eight tankfuls of gasoline with various amounts of acetone added (1-3 oz. per 10 gallons of gasoline) and in my old Eagle Summit, with 100,000 miles on it, the results so far are an average of 10% better gas milage than I ever got before. Two of those tankfuls averaged almost 20% better milage. Turns out there was a patent issued on a similar mixture back in 1934 and so it is not new, just not generally known- for the same reasons oxygenated water, while not new, is also not generally known as to the mechanism of action. It seems there are too many dead people around spreading fear, insult and disease, even about something so harmless as adding acetone to gasoline or oxygen to water- not to mention oil companies not telling anyone exactly what is in their gasolines or bottled water companies not telling what's in their water. But the site I listed the link to cautions that adding too much acetone can lower gas milage and so finding the optimum gasoline to use and the optimum amount of acetone to add to it takes some effort- probably more than making your own oxygenated water. In the case of acetone added to gasoline, acetone by the gallon costs about $12, or 10 cents per ounce, (or 1 penny per gallon of gasoline in my case- which saves me 20 cents per gallon in less fuel usage when gasoline is $2 a gallon or over). That's not as good as the possible 40% increase in milage mentioned on the site referred to, but it sure beats zero. It's not a subject I want to discuss in any detail on this site, and how many people read this site that want to actually try it out on their car I don't know. But I do know that what works is real, regardless of the nay-sayers and wannabe experts, and their wanting me to spend my money to prove to them something that they have no interest in to begin with. The fact remains that the immune system works best at a partial oxygen pressure of 50-80 mm Hg and hemoglobin can only get it to 39 mm Hg at best. Ants and other insects have no lungs and yet get their oxygen requirements met with absorption through the skin and/or the water they drink. If that doesn't shut up the folks who harp on hemoglobin being the be-all and end-all of oxygen delivery, I don't know what will. They'll just continue to stink up the place with their nonsense. Best wishes to all who are living.

This is a nice fairy tale posted, along with a few out and out lies (like blood can only carry oxygen if it is attached to hemoglobin), by The Song Remains The Same. Judging from all his other posts on this thread one is led to conclude that his pen name should be The Noise Remains The Same. One can't even tell from his last post what words are his and what words are quoted from someone else. At one point I thought he might actually be a high school chemistry teacher, but his public profile says he's a Master Carpenter- looks like part of a demolition crew to me! So here's a link in keeping with Proverbs 6:6, "Go to the ant, thou sluggard; consider her ways, and be wise:" The link is to an anatomy of the ant site. Ants, like other insects, have no lungs and no hemoglobin. They do have a heart and the heart pumps a clear liquid through their bodies (the fraction of the blood we call plasma). From all the nay-sayer posts on this thread one would think that ants could not live because they have no hemoglobin to carry oxygen. Oops, seems that presumption is wrong because I've personally seen ants and no double blind studies are needed to prove that they exist, or even that Proverbs gives good counsel in suggesting that the study of ants might make one a little less stupid. For those who are research minded (not many have shown up on this thread so far it seems), open a warm bottle of Coke while holding an inverted glass over the top to catch the CO2 coming off. Then place the inverted glass over an ant and see how long he lives. You'll get more CO2 into the inverted glass if you shake up the warm Coke but you'll get liquid all over you and ruin the experiment if any of the liquid splatters over the glass (because you then won't know if it was the Coke that killed the ant or the lack of oxygen.) Now if you cool the bottle of Coke to 32 F before opening it, you probably won't get any CO2 coming off at all since all gasses work the same as oxygen, ie. the solubility of gasses in water increases as the temperature decreases, reaching a maximum at 32F. I assume that Coke only puts enough CO2 in the bottle to saturate it at 32 F. Why, even if you live in Nebraska, like Oakspur, and can't find any Penta Water, you surely can do this experiment (that assumes there is enough of a market in Nebraska for Coke to go after, if not Penta Water). And if you're a journalist like RAF, why you could even bleed pure oxygen into the inverted glass and see what happens to the ant when you place the glass over him. Naw, he won't do that because it might take a little work. He'll just report that the ant burped!

Wow! Fourteen posts since my post of yesterday and not a shread of insight in any of them. Ain't nature wonderful!

For those with the patience to have waded through all the crap to get to this point, there is a listing of the Lymphatics of the Abdomen, posted by the U. of Michigan Gross Anatomy Department, at http://www.med.umich.edu/lrc/coursepages/M...ph_abdomen.html that you might find interesting. Seems that in the abdomonal cavity alone there are some 45 different kinds of structures in the lymph system, of which 39 are different kinds of lymph nodes. Althgether there are some 700-800 individual lymph nodes- in the abdomonal cavity alone. The chart gives where the inflow comes from (afferents from) and where the outflow goes (Efferents to), the regions drained and where all these lymph nodes are located. It's quite a different picture than the simplistic notion that the water we drink merely gets dumped into the blood stream through the thoracic duct after being absorbed in the small intestine. And you can bet that each of the 700-800 lymph nodes needs oxygen to do it's job of breaking down toxins and the trash from cell metabolism and building lymphocytes so they can do their job throughout the body. And the more oxygen in the water you drink, the better these 700-800 lymph nodes in the abdomonal cavity are going to function. Dr. Philip James, mentioned early on in this thread, has published that the autoimmune system works best when the oxygen partial pressure is 50-80 mm Hg, and that hemoglobin can generate a partial pressure no greater than 39 mm Hg (and less than that as we age or get sick). So to get the oxygen partial pressure up to where the immune system works best, one needs to either get into a hyperbaric chamber or drink oxygen saturated water- which in actuality is merely very low grade hyperbaric therapy that anyone can do without ill effects. (ie. you drink water at atmospheric pressure but it is saturated with oxygen when you drink it instead of holding only a small fraction of what it can hold- or none at all as in the case of coffee, softdrinks, and various juices that are heated before being bottled). It won't quite get the rest of the bodies water to 50 mm Hg once it is fully diluted after drinking, but it can get close to that, and stay there for an hour or so, if one drinks a sixteen ounce glass of 70 ppm oxygen contained water. The hecklers, nay-sayers, and jerks need not reply- but probably will anyway simply because it's their nature! (like a sow that was washed returns to it's wallowing in the mud and the dog returns to it's vommit- it's their nature.)

Oakspear, please do let us all know the results of your research once you've done some. Until then, maybe you should read the entire thread so you won't make such egregious errors as to say "no one is claiming that it's harmful". As I recall, someone said I should "shut up before you kill someone" back on this thread somewhere so you might be taking a grave risk drinking oxygenated water. Come to think about it, Raf's only substantial contribution to this thread as been to say that he didn't think oxygenated water was harmful- although he didn't tell us why he came to that conclusion. Also, you don't get to be the expert on whether the topic is controversial or merely dubious. It was declared controversial by a medical doctor a couple of years ago in a discussion about the subject (in which I was a participant)on Horsescience. This doctor was in private practice and his family owns the world's most prestegous Standardbred Breeding operation, in Hershey, Pa., Hanover Farms. I asked him what was so controversial about the subject, given the test results we were talking about (double blind tests on horses done by a German firm in Portland, OR. four or five years ago, but not published since they wanted to keep the information for themselves- the only reason the test results were known is because the moderator of the discussion site was the horse consultant to the Thoroughbred operation in Portland, was party to the tests, but didn't sign a confidentiality agreement- unfortunate for the German firm, and chose to discuss it on his web site.) Anyway, the controversy was about how the oxygenated water increased performance, not that it did. At the time I didn't know a thing about the lymph system, let alone the fact that it is twice the size of the circulatory system, and I don't think the good doctor from Pennsylvania had yet considered it either. He was still marveling that both the veineous and arterial plasma showed increased oxygen levels- a revelation to him- being proof positive that the effect wasn't merely a hemoglobin issue. The test (which I discussed early on in this thread) only measured the plasma oxygen concentration in both the artery side and vein side of the circulatory system before and after drinking highly oxygenated water, along with other parameters such as heart rate before and after exercise, with and without drinking the oxygenated water. But at least everyone in the discussion knew that one doesn't bring up "placebo effect" when horses are the test subjects. That may be just around the corner, when we discover that horses talk to each other and say things like "naw, it didn't really help you win the race, you just thought it did and so you ran harder". Oh, and you'll have to be quite a bit more specific about all the "experts" that suposedly showed up on on this thread, with their vast backgrounds in the sciences, to give scientific evidence that oxygen saturated water doesn't work. I don't know of any and I've been waiting for five months now for some to show up for a legitimate debate, if there is any evidence at all on the other side of the issue- and do so complete with civility! I assumed some might be among those that got into twi and then left after I did, but either they have no interest in this site or else there were none. At least back in the sixties and early seventies there were quite a few very talented and highly educated people in all kinds of fields that took interest in twi and took PFAL, not to mention school teachers and other more modest professionals. So where are they on this site? I remember from Waydale that there were some very insightful posts (to go along with the nay-sayers, thread killers, and folks that just wanted to hear themselves talk.) But I'm getting tired of the drivel and since Elvis has left the building, I may soon follow.

Hey Chuck, my apologies to you and CM (whoever he is) since I got you confused with him last week when he posted on this thread for the first time and I replied to it. I thought you'd shortened your username from CWF to CM in the interest of brevity. Guess I knew after his next two posts that it wasn't you. But by then it was too late. Anyway, thanks for the post- otherwise I wouldn't know that Oakspear considers me the "founder" of this thread. No telling how many threads he "founded" amidst his 4,066 posts since he started here almost three years ago- whoever he (or she) is. Seems that Raf and Steve! started about the same time as he did back in June, 2002. Maybe they are the Trinity, more or less co-equal, what with Raf's 5,700 posts and Steve!'s 4,483 posts and all. Sure does put our "founding" and "membership" at this site to shame, what with your measly 86 posts and my measly 95 posts. My hat's off to you since you've put up with them far longer than I have. Actually, CM appears to have great potential at GSC since he's already posted 264 posts since arriving a month after I did in December. Had I looked at that number before replying to his post I would have known it wasn't you. Sorry about that. I did read CM's "The near 50 and older club" this morning. Ah, if only he knew that we were his "elders" by quite a few years (well, I should speak for myself)! George Aar had a post on that thread lamenting his need for laxatives. For those late to the party here, George was one of the first to post on this thread and introduced us to "The Amazing Randi" and Penta Water being bunk. Too bad, had he tried Penta Water, or made his own oxygenated water, he might well have discovered (probably not with the first glass) that his need for laxatives went away. But hey, listen to The Amazing Randi and buy laxatives if that's where stubbornness or laziness takes you George. I'm not the one needing laxatives- and I'm older! Hope I'm not betraying a confidence Chuck, but I have to tell the folks that you drank some of my home brew oxygenated water before I ever started this thread. So I haven't included you in the list of "successes" here. Why if I included you and Kit my success rate would double! And I'm still hoping Lovematters finds some Penta Water amidst all that bottled water on the grocery shelves (all of which is mere bunk according to Raf.) Imagine that, millions upon millions of folks not listening to what Raf has to say about bottled water being bunk! But to go back for a minute to the beginning (or at least the beginning as I know it of the subject). Dr. Pakdaman, in Germany, gave 50ppm distilled water to his cancer patients back around 1970- almost 40 years ago. He found the plasma oxygen pressure went up from around 20 mmHg to 30 mmHg within six minutes of their drinking the water, and stayed up for over an hour. More importantly, he found that every member in the test group improved while every member in the control group deteriorated over the length of the test, as expected. No doubt he terminated the test as soon as he was sure the oxygenated water helped cancer patients, however long that took. To do otherwise would have been unethical and immoral- withholding something of value from a patient just for the sake of having a control group- something that some folks here think should be done again forty years later just to satisfy their presumed interest. It took thirty years or so for bottled water to show up in mass on the grocery shelves- including some that actually contain 40-50 ppm oxygen like Dr. Pakdaman's. The next step is for folks to make their own highly oxygenated water and so avoid the cost while enjoying the benifit. All I've done is show folks an easy way to do that and give them some idea of what they'll end up with (instead of pot-luck at the grocery store), and the kinds of reported scientific data available on the subject, as well as my own experience with it. No one here has paid my wage for doing so nor is it likely that anyone here will. Seems that after all these years since Dr. Pakdaman's work, many still want to claim that it is a "controversial" subject. But then after 2000 years there are plenty of jerks around that still want to claim that Jesus Christ is controversial- and it's not one wit easier to convince the gain-sayers to try out what Jesus had to say than it is to convince the gain-sayers here to try oxygen saturated water. There are no end of people that want to put words in Jesus' mouth and then call him a liar. And so I expect no less a defaming myself from the same kind of folks here. A servant doesn't rise to the level of his master after all and there is a war going on! But then a servant doesn't have to be as gracious as his master either, even though it's a good idea to try!

Raf, I probably could find someone who said they drank water out of a sewer and claimed it was no different from any other water, and then develope a whole thesis based on this "eyewitness" account, showing that he mentioned the wrong sewer, or didn't include various other facts he should have included in his report, like it's good to pick ones nose when drinking sewer water. But he would still be a strawman and anyone reading the thesis would still be straining over words to no profit.

Lovematters: If the water you bubble air into is close to freezing, you will end up with about 15 ppm oxygen in it. That's about double what you get in tap water- not a trivial improvement. But if you take the same cold water and the same aerator but have a source of oxygen rather than air to feed the aerator (an oxygen tank or an oxygen generator), the water will hold 75 ppm oxygen, or about five times as much (since air is normally only 21% oxygen by weight). Some of the bottled water folks must do exactly that since both Pepsi's and Coke's water product measures around 15 ppm contained oxygen. They just don't tell you they add oxygen on the label. They do inform you (in very small print) that they add no carbon dioxide and leave you to wonder what the pssst is when you open a relatively warm bottle of their water. Thanks for the question and the possibility that my success rate may go up 50%. Love not only matters, my Bible says it NEVER FAILS! (It just sometimes looks like it fails).

Oakspear, I spent a half hour or so looking at the link on "Actual Errors" you cited. Unfortunately, the premise was developed from a strawman that supposedly said PFAL was the "God-breathed word", and such a strawman I never met in my tenure with twi in the sixties and early seventies. Everyone I ever meet knew it was not the "God-breathed" word- including V.P., and Karen, his daughter, who actually wrote the book "Power For Abundand Living"- from the transcript of the film. Obviously, if the premise is bogus the development to knock it down is worthless- a straining about words to no profit. The premise of this thread is that drinking water, saturated with oxygen, is beneficial to one's health (maybe even gives you a little "power for abundant living"- if you drink it). I've tried to develope that premise to the end that some folks would actually try it and see- and perhaps even give us the courtesy of reporting back what they found by doing so. After five months two people have done so, Krysilis and oldiesman, and none have made their own that I know of (as a result of reading this thread)- numerous others, that could care less about GSC, or know nothing about it, but are known to me, have made and used the water or are interested in doing so. The advantage of the thread to me is that I don't have to repeat everything I've said here every time I talk to a new person about the subject but can give them the link so they can read it themselves if they want to. Had raf reported that he'd bought a case of Penta Water, or made his own oxygenated water, and drank a glass every day for the past five months and noticed no difference to his health in any way, I could respect that. But all he's done is shown me what a jerk he is. That he feels the same about me makes no difference whatsoever in either of our lives. I wouldn't know who he was if I passed him on the street. In March there were 23 posts to this thread and 795 views, or approximately 35 views per post. But if one eliminates the 364 views in the five days after, and including, Easter, and the 3 posts during that time, the total for the month would only be 22 views per post. Those five days were abnormal for some reason- which is why I asked the question about them. Those five days work out to 121 views per post. So far in April there have been 57 posts and 1014 views or 18 views per post. So maybe someone messed with the counters the five days after Easter but I rather doubt it, since if it was a game someone was playing, they'd most likely have continued playing it, or had played it before. Actually, in the Open Forum, there only have been 104 threads posted to since Easter, including new ones (til yesterday), or a rate of about 3-4 threads per day even opened to post something to. Viewers don't move a thread up on the list and to the best of my knowledge a person has to sign off and sign back on in order to be counted more than once as a viewer to a thread, no matter how many times he or she may come back to it or leave it, or go between pages, etc. The point of all this is to show that nonsense and trivia does not lead to increased participation at GSC, substance does. I don't know about the other forums here since I don't read them- and in five months I haven't found anything else on this forum that I care to post to, let alone start other threads as some kind of admission ticket into what some must consider to be a private exclusive club. I did mis-speak when I used the word censors- I should have said "wannabe censors", those who prounounce the thread is dead, or that i'm playing God, or that they knew all this long ago and it's boring, or it's a dumb subject to begin with, etc. Had I known in December what I know now, five months later, namely that two people even tried oxygenated water in one form or another, after 464 posts and 6983 views, of which about one fifth of the posts are mine, I would have saved my breath. But those 364 views in the five days following Easter make me want to hang on just a little longer. I mean, if just one more person reports that they actually drank oxygenated water due to the information contained on this thread my success rate would go up by 50%!

Raf, we're not talking about nutrition, since neither oxygen nor water are considered nutrients. Actually the field is physical chemistry, which, like thermodynamics, deals with heat and mass transfer, chemical reaction rates, temperatures, pressures, and other such physical things that you obviously have no interest in. But they do affect your health and well-being, whether you like it or not, since every molecule of food you eat has to be combusted with oxygen, in a water environment, to do you any good at all. There are millions of foods and food additives, there is only one oxygen and one water to go with them so that they provide energy to move, think, live. As a matter of fact, there are over 500 different hydrocarbons in gasoline, but they all must react with oxygen to move you down the road. We even invented superchargers to help get more oxygen into the combustion chamber. They won't help if you run out of fuel, but you can bet that the folks that invented them and use them are not dummies- like you seem to think all people are that buy oxygenated drinking water. Or maybe you think that an automobile engine will only burp with a supercharger on it. I suggest it will blow you off the road.

Hey Chuck, actually what's been on my mind for the last week and a half is the 400 people that unexpectedly showed up to read some of this thread the five days after Easter. As you can see from the posts since I asked the question, seems there are lots of censors at GSC that presume they have the right to control what questions I ask and delight in inpuning my motives and intelligence for doing so. Fact is that I wouldn't even have noticed the abnormality but for their silence in the month or so prior to that time- a brief respite from all that is hateful about public forums on the internet, where Robert's Rules of Order doesn't rule and common decency isn't all that common. So, until I know better, I'll figure that some folks showed up that actually cared about the subject- new visitors to GSC, who probably have no intention of getting a username and password to post anything here. I had hoped for enough gracious replies to encourage them to do so but instead brought out the jerks in full force to drive them away. Just for clarification, that is not the same as saying that everyone is a jerk!

Oakspear, if you give the link to it I'll be happy to take a look to see if there is anything new in it. I'm not very optimistic since I met hundreds, if not thousands, back in the 60's and early 70's that knew it was entirely error- and they didn't even know what it contained, nor were they interested enough to sit through it to find out what was covered. But then there are probably many that think thermodynamics is bunk and not worth the time to investigate. As a percentage of the population, there are probably fewer that ever took thermodynamics than took PFAL- but then there are a whole lot of hoops one has to jump through before being allowed in to a thermodynamics class. Actually, judging from the poor quality of all but a few of the last 40 posts to this thread, one might be led to investigate The Way International with a fresh look since if these are folks that got kicked out, the ones who stayed might be a better caliber of individual!