David Anderson

Mr. Zixar (or should I say Miss or Mrs.?) Does this mean that you looked up Henry's Law and are willing to retract your previous statements about what jerks folks are that claim water can hold 60-70 ppm oxygen? Everyone knows that you are not responsible for what others read or don't read, but are you responsible to correct your own errors of fact on this thread? That's the question I'd like answered. Don't worry, most medical doctors don't know Henry's Law either- which is why an engineer is required to talk about the matter of oxygen in water(or at least someone who does know Henry's Law). If you don't believe that, just find as many medical doctors as you can and ask them what Henry's Law states. I think you'll be amazed at how many will say they never heard of it before. And we haven't even got to the matter of how long it takes for water saturated under an oxygen atmosphere to lose 80% of it's oxygen when exposed to an air atmosphere. I've only done one test on that matter and that was to confirm what the guy said that told me it took days rather than minutes or hours- at least it did in a horse's water bucket that he tested. Sure enough, we made some one evening, let the top off, and by the next morning the water still had 40 ppm in it. I was surprised because intuitively I figured it would be closer to minutes or hours rather than days. So now that you seem to be corrected in the matter of amounts (even though you haven't retracted your previous posts but merely want to skate on down the road now), perhaps we can get to the matter of the rate at which oxygen is added or subtracted from water under different atmospheric conditions. This is not the domain of medicine by any stretch of the imagination. But your comments about how futile this thread has become is belied by the numbers. Since yesterday the number of viewers has increased by 169 even though the number of posts has increased by only 16. That's a whole lot more viewers than the few you mentioned. I trust you don't speak for them any more than I do. Actually, my thought this morning is that this thread is not all that different than the people I encountered when I first started introducing people to PFAL back in the 60's. There were the "leaders", those preachers who had gone to seminary and pretended that they only were qualified to understand the Bible, there were the "followers" that backed them up with nothing other than "me too". These blind leaders of the blind deserved every bit of what they got as church attendence decreased and, by the end of the 70's, most of what was contained in PFAL became common knowledge. Then there were the intellectuals, especially at college, who thought the bible was bunk. To them I'd bring up speaking in tongues and finally when they asked what it was I'd speak in tongues for them to show them what it was. The predictable replies, which ran the gambit from "You're crazy" to "Anybody can do that" invariably brought a smile to my face and the reply, "O.K. you do it if it's just bunk." They never did and finally after a few hundred I was satisfied that the unbeliever couldn't do it. (that's the engineers answer to double blind, placebo controlled, "properly designed", crossover tests with probability type reports- it's called facts!). So there were young, old, rich, poor, low IQ, high IQ, hippies, thugs, high brows. In short, a pretty good cross-section of people. And of those that did actually sit through 36 hours of lecture, (John Lynn did it in three days in my apartment, while counting how many times VPW used such phrases as "The Word of God is the Will of God"), 90% of them I never saw again- but they had the information and could use it, misuse it, dismiss it, persue it, abuse it, whatever they wanted to do. And for the most part I paid my own way while doing this "work". The problem came in when a 10% response of "devotees" wasn't good enough for VPW and he concluded that "The love of God doesn't work and we're going to 'put some teeth in this ministry'". He did by means of his Way Corp, realizing that although 90% of the folks taking the class would never send him a check, he might get into their pocket to "sponsor" someone they knew in this high and holy calling called the Way Corp. It was built on lies from the beginning and I rather expect that most of the naysayers on this thread were "leaders" in the Way Corp. I can't prove that either and have no desire to even try. I'm just judging from the lack of substance in so many of them, not to mention the lethal intent of your posts. I can deal with your lethal intent but but not the vacuous replies of folks like Garth P and Evan whoever. I'm quite surprised by how many folks keep reading this thread. But hey, if you want to leave there's nobody stopping you!

Krys, your description of the alarm reminded me of a book I read back in the seventies called, "The Art of Thinking" by a Frenchman named Dimnet. He was talking about creative solutions to practical problems and brought up the matter of so many people being killed on the Autobon in Germany. One bright fellow reasoned that the problem was that people felt justified to mow them down because they had laid on the horn and the person didn't get out of the way. (sort of like the tecnique used on this thread to try to destroy it.) Anyway, he suggested taking the horns off cars and replace them with little musical beepers with a pleasant sound, thereby taking away the excuse to mow people down. Seems it worked wonderfully and the accident rate in Europe went down sustantially. I was in Copenhagen years ago and marveled at the pleasant sounding horns going off every so often. Sure was a contrast to big city USA. I guess the powers that be at GM, Ford and Chrysler, never read the book, or never went to Europe because all these years later we still have those big, bad horns- and now road rage to boot. And from your report it seems that even oxygen generators have to scare the hell out of people rather than give them a gentle warning that the machine might shut down and the reset button would need to be pushed if something isn't changed soon. And to think that such an alarm is placed on a unit designed to help those without enough oxygen to begin with is unconscionable. Hell, it won't hurt the machine, but it might well kill the person hearing the blare. That's the AMA and insurance companies at work as the ugly American becomes ever more ugly! Any chance you can post the blood gas numbers you got the other day, before and after exercise? Or email them to me? I'd be interested in the arterial plasma oxygen before and after exercise and approximately how much time had elapsed from the last time you'd had a drink of water, and perhaps the cut off point (plasma oxygen concentration and/or partial pressure) the insurance companies use to determine if they are going to pay for oxygen use or not. Glad to hear that none of the numbers have gone down since the last time you had them checked eight months ago.

Hey Osama, looks like you're actually thinking about this stuff. But maybe you should look up Henry's Law to add to your store of knowledge. He's not quite as popular as Newton, but his law is a law nevertheless. So you're right that at room temperature (20 C, 68 F) in an air atmosphere, the equalibrium solubility of oxygen in water is 9 ppm. But the partial pressure of the oxygen in the water will only be 21% of 760 torr (= 159.6 torr). And I'll leave it to you to address the matter of equalibrium and how long it takes to establish it. Now if the water is in an oxygen atmosphere rather than air, the solubility becomes 100/21 X 9 ppm = 42.9 ppm- which is about what I measured Penta Water to be. And it's partial pressure will equal the total pressure of 760 torr. (well, close to it anyway. One still has to contend with the vapor pressure of water at that temperature, and so the oxygen partial pressure is slightly less than 760 mm Hg- or torr to you Europeans/arabs.) I don't know a thing about the buffering action of oxygen on plastic and haven't investigated shelf life issues as it pertains to the oxygen concentration of Penta Water. I rather doubt that they add oxygen to each bottle of water seperately, but it could be. Seems to me that would be a far greater quality control issue for them to monitor. I do know that I've never burped from drinking oxygen saturated water, even slightly supersaturated water. Seems that enough cells in the mouth, esophagus and stomach are screaming for the oxygen that there is never enough to go around, let alone get rid of by burping. But do let me know if you ever do drink a glass of it. There's nothing like experience to blow away the smoke and ..... Henry's Law, Osama, Henry's Law.

Hey Oldiesman, I hope that's a motorcycle you have instead of a bicycle, although I'd be mighty impressed if you crossed Pennsylvania on a bicycle just for a gallon of Pneuma Water! I'd make a case of it for you to take back (6 gallons) if you like, which would be no problem on a motorcycle but might be a strain on a bicycle!

Krys, sorry it was you that took the bait off my little hook. Guess I should have figured from your suggestion early on that the thread be shut down and made a private topic because nobody would be interested in discussing oxygenated water. But that was before you tried some and found it helped- unless that was merely deception as well. Why you even emailed me and wanted a corny keg. But, alas, when I replied saying I'd be happy to send you an extra one I had and all I needed was an address to send it to, why my email was sent back to me as undeliverable. I even posted on the private topic you started that there was a problem with your email address, but alas I've heard nothing back from you since and so my generous offer is now withdrawn. Fact is that I don't wish my enemies well- I hope they fail completely! I know the scripture says we're to love our enemies, but that presumes that we first recognize that we have enemies and who they are. I rather hope that Osama Bin Ladan gets caught, and punished if it's proven beyond a reasonable doubt that he was behind the 9/11 distruction. Don't know that I have the capacity to love him because he's no more to me than pictures in the newspaper, not someone that is a known enemy to me personally. Hell, he could be using the name Zixar on this thread for all I know. As for your warning about oxygen generators (or concentrators as the case might be), I doubt that any of them are designed so closely that you'll burn out a motor if you put your finger over the delivery tube and stop the flow of oxygen. I suppose it could happen if you did so long enough, but i rather doubt it even then. I do know that they are used for the portable hyperbaric chambers (up to 6 psi) being widely used outside the medical profession these days, and although they are higher volume generators than the ones commonly used for those who are on oxygen in the home, I don't think the air pumps are substantially different in design or efficiency. I did talk to two friends yesterday about the matter and both agreed that using the generator to make oxygenated water was unlikely to cause a problem. The first knew a person who used one for some time before passing away recently and she had 35 feet of tubing attached to the unit so she could go most places in her home without dragging the unit around. Without doing the calculations, seems to me that the resistance of thirty five feet of quarter inch tubing is greater than a few inches of water head (not to mention the tubing getting crimped and stopping the flow of oxygen- which would surely do the damage you suggest if you are right). Anyway, my guess is that you know about as much about things mechanical as you do about your confessed limited knowledge of math, and so my hope is that your reply was mostly to blow off steam from all that pressure that you said was building from participating in this thread. So here's another idea on making oxygenated water using an oxygen generator (concentrator). Adapt the bottle that the oxygen bubbles through to humidity it so that instead of replacing the bottle when it gets low, a tube runs to it from a gallon of distilled water in your refrigerator or some other cold place. Then run a tube out of it with a pinch valve at the end to fill your glass whenever you want a drink of water. Such water should contain as much oxygen as Penta Water does if it's had oxygen bubbling through it for a reasonable time. Hmmm, if you're concerned about destroying the unit by causing too much back pressure, just empty the humidity water bottle entirely and stick the tube in your water glass for a while. That way there will be no more pressure at all for the air pump to work against. But that presumes that you still find oxygenated water helpful and not merely a placebo effect. Don't ya know you'd have a bonified Millenium Water Cooler (sans the flash and the price) right in your own home! Best wishes to you, Dave (aka McGiever Jr.)

UncleHarry: I must admit that your moniker brings to mind an ugly time when VPW's brother tried to talk me into burning down my house to collect the insurance. Turned out that, unknown to me, TWI had bought up my mortgage at New Knoxville bank and FEDGOV looked like they were going to get away with grabbing it to pile mud on from dredging Lake Lorramie. (they didn't succeed in that effort, but Harry didn't know that at the time). This was years after I'd left TWI. Anyway, Harry got to the point of saying that he didn't think there was anything "spiritually wrong" with my burning my house down and collecting the insurance so I replied, "Well I do, now get the hell out of my house". From your public profile you appear to be one of his followers so I'll only say that if you're after my money, good luck. When I find some I'll be sure to let you know! Until then, the cheepest way for you to get some highly oxygenated water is to read the beginning of this thread, especially the reply to Grizz. Or you, or anybody else reading this thread, can make an appointment to stop by and I'll give you a gallon- for FREE, woopee! But I don't ship water through the mail or UPS or anybody else, although if you're within a radius of five miles from my country "estate" I might consider driving it over to you if you don't have a car. My "business" practice is non-existant but I do sometimes charge $5 a gallon for the oxygenated water I make for those too lazy, or too intimidated by all things mechanical, to make their own. It's an easy "sell" (if they really want the water) because I always tell them their option is to buy these nice little 500 ml bottles of Penta Water that they can get at the grocery store, or health foods store if they're not in California, and it will cost them about three times that much. Their choice. For all the rest reading this thread, there's a simpler way to make the water than I explained to Grizz, if you happen to have an oxygen generator. Just make sure the water is as cold as you can get it to begin with and stick the oxygen tube into the water (the bottom of the bottle- assuming the tube has enough pressure to still bubble up). Maybe even throw a couple of ice cubes in to make sure it stays cold while you're oxygenating it. I don't have an oxygen generator and so have not tested how long it takes to get saturated with oxygen. My guess would be an hour or so, but anybody wanting to know more closely than that can send me an oxygen generator and I'll do some tests. But they cost upwards of a thousand dollars if you don't already have one. So whether you use a gallon jug, a used Coke bottle, distilled water, or what-have-you, just make sure the water is to the top and the cap is securely tightened when you're done. Should last for quite a while if you keep it refrigerated. Best wishes to all (well, maybe not all). Dave

So Zixar, are you saying that the thoracic duct is part of the lymph system, and maybe even the subclavian veins are too? Gee, maybe I should have said the lymph system starts with a glass of water sitting on the table, gets picked up by the hand, put to the mouth, swallowed and then ends up in the toilet bowl when we "take a leak". That, at least, would be a complete "system", complete with a beginning and an end, and sure would beat the capillaries taking a leak from the blood stream and going back to the blood stream as complete system. Oh, and your saying that FEDGOV is a trademarked word is also a lie. The first part, FED, everybody knows refers to Greenie and the boys, and the second part, GOV, even has it's own web domain, the dot gov's. It's headed by Bush and the boys, and although folks like you would like to suggest that it's disjointed and one level not connected to the other (like FDA not connected to IRS), it ain't so. It's a well connected, well oiled, monolith, ugly as that monster may be. It's wanting to grow into a one world monster, but to the best of my knowledge it still has a way to go to get that accomlished. Maybe evolution will get it there but I wouldn't bet on it. But hey, you seem to have even brought your cheerleaders along to the game in the form of one GarthP, to distract us with black helicoptors and even the name of John Lynn- whatever that has to do with oxygenated water. So keep telling lies and cluttering up the thread with misinformation if you like, seems I can't stop you from doing so. But then Raf and Oakspear can't stop me from using their names either as anecdotal evidence that drinking oxygenated water isn't harmful. Not that it means anything, but it is on a par with medical research that says, "here, buy this pill because there's only one chance in ten that it will kill you." I mean, such pills are now pushed in tv ads that will even enhance your sex life, although they caution that your liver (if you have a liver problem) may be damaged and so you should spend more money to go see a doctor to tell you if your liver will object to using the pill. Hey, now that I think about it, oxygen saturated water might even help your sex life! Why if you give it to a girl she might even like you! But maybe she'll ask for your name first! Oops, here comes your cheerleader to say I'm being sexist by assuming that NoName is a male. So it's ok by me if you want to switch genders in the above sentences. I don't know, maybe Krys was right in the beginning of this thread when she suggested it be moved to a Private Topic. My intention in starting the discussion was not to put pressure on her and if she thinks it now does do that, why we can always just stop and do exactly that. But before I get involved in a Private Topic, I'm going to need to understand the terms and conditions and how it differs from a public forum. Seems to me it's like the occassional business meeting where two people get up from the table, whisper something to each other in the corner and then come back with a blank look on their face so that everyone else at the table wonders what they whispered to each other- not very good form in the business meetings I've been involved in- and something I never would have allowed in a PFAL class.

RAF, I think I mispoke. What I meant to say was thanks for your being my anecdotal evidence-the kind that some here think is worthless but I don't think is worthless. So maybe by adding your name to that of Mstar1, Oldiesman, myself, Krys, and maybe a few hundred others that I know of (not to mention birds, dogs, cats, horses and the like), who by their actions demonstrate that they don't think drinking oxygenated water is dangerous, maybe the viciousness of one annonomous person, Zixar, will be neutralized. There's probably no hope for folks like George Aar, but I have no quarrel with him because he's only sugested I'm stupid and broke, and I don't mind that. Being called a murderer by stupidity is something entirely different. I might not be the brightest light in the barn, but I'm not burned out either and so I can tend to horses, and even horses asses, when it's dark outside.

Seems Zixar is intent on proving the vastness of what he learned about lymph in ninth grade and now has the proof, in the form of a Wickopedia entry, while at the same time showing that I'm so stupid that my stupidity could kill someone. I mean, everyone knows that the above quote is true, don't they? The Wickopedia entry has probably even been "peer reviewed" by the AMA. But no, I don't believe it. Whether three liters of plasma "leaks" from the capillaries a day or not, the picture painted by the article is one of a perpetual motion machine that goes in circles, does nothing, and returns from whence it came. And so I'm still of the opinion that lymph originates as chyle in the small intestine, reason being that we do need about three pounds of water a day to live and that water goes somewhere, whether oxygenated or not, whether distilled water or the water contained in coke or coffee, before the kidneys get rid of it. The best information I have after a couple of years of looking into the matter is that 80% of water is absorbed in the small intestine and gets split with about 1/3 of it going into the blood system and 2/3 going into the lymph system as chyle. Google has about 772,000 sites under the search "small intestine" and I've read hundreds, perhaps thousands, of them over the past two years. I even found Gray's "Anatomy" on the subject, a 1918 edition, which evidently is famous since he died in the 1860's. Amazing what was known in the 1860's about the samll intestine, even the word chyle (although I couldn't find it in the Wickopedia article offered by Zixar)- obviously it's not needed since the whole lymph system can be described, from beginning to end, as a little leakage from the capillaries that just goes back into the blood system anyway. Even the lacteals, those "pipes" that begin the lymph system, and appear to be twice the size of the capillary "pipes" in the villi of the small intestine, are usually described as going in short order to the blood stream, as though their importance to the lymph system was non existant. But that's AMA stuff, who wouldn't think about a mere massage of the lymph system to make you better. Far superior is pills to kill off the digestive system and the rest of you as well. Pills and the knife, "modern medicine" in a nut shell. So excuse me for not being able to find the discussion again that pointed out that the lymph system began as chyle in the small intestine. I'd read quite a number of articles like the Wickopedia article before ever finding it. Sorry that I'm not a very good organizer or filing secretary. But then my purpose in beginning this thread was to try and organize all the notes I'd taken on the subject over the past two years and bring some order to them- with a little help from my friends, and hopefully as few distractions as possible from the nay-sayers. But thanks Zixar for the Wickopedia site. It is quite good, with lots of links to amplify things. It just doesn't say a thing about the progression of the water we drink and where it goes and how it get's there, let alone the oxygen in the water we drink- if there's any in it at all by the time it reaches our mouths. I guess the bottom line here is that the medical profession deals with people that are sick, not people that are well. If I'm right about what i've deduced so far about the role and value of oxygen in water, there may be a whole lot fewer sick people to take advantage of and make money from in that profession. I have no quarrel with their dealing with sick people, but the devotees of that profession that want to convince well people that they are on dangerous ground if they do anything not sanctioned by the medical profession, or first approved by it, will have a serious problem with this engineer. But, alas, we engineers deal with people that are well and can fight back and so generally have to be quite a bit better informed than they are. Same goes for lawyers. They also deal with people that are down, either wanting a divorce, or to settle an estate from someone recently deceased, or needing to declare bankrupcy, or to escape the jaws of the law because of a murder they committed, etc. In short, unwell people due to other causes. So they can, and do, plunder them just as badly as the medical profession does. If an engineer plunders you, at least you're not sick or broke and can fight back. My experience as an engineer is that the plundering is usually in the opposite direction- we get plundered instead of doing the plundering. As for oxygenated water, I hope I make millions of dollars on it, but I wouldn't bet the farm (if I had one to bet). How well Penta Water is doing I don't know, but the longest standing health foods store in the Cleveland area has carried it for at least two years and to my amazement it's only $1.33 for a 500 ml bottle. Same bottle I bought closer to home for considerably more money less than a year ago. Hey, maybe it will go down to ten cents a bottle and they'll go broke. Then all the nay-sayers can heckle them for being so stupid and not bribing the medical profession into "properly" testing their product, etc, instead of characterizing them as greedy bastards with a .... product. But it would be the same kind of people, just a different line of tripe, that did so. Anyway, those that are interested in persuing the matter of the lymph system beginning in the villi of the small intestine (villi means fingerlike as they are the active sites mostly on the walls of the middle part of the intestine that extend into it) there are about 369,000 sites to read on google's search for "villi". If you start reading them, you'll come to another word, "Crypt", as it seems the villi start with stem cells that make crypt cells, which then migrate up the structure to become villi and finally die, to be recicyled and digested, all within three days! So the small intestine evidently is a whole new critter every three days. Not only that, it seems that there is also plenty of smooth muscle tissue around to help the digestion process and give it a hydrolic "boost". Hmmm, seems that osmosis is not the only force at work, even though it's commonly reported to be so. Sure didn't know about those little muscles until yesterday. But they're not like your biceps in that they are controlled independently of your will and so get whatever exercise they need without your asking them to go out and work. Anyway, I'm still waiting for Krys's amplification of the lymph system and sure hope she's not going to settle for Zixar's- which in my view is a poor substitute for what she has to offer. Thanks Krys for all you've helped so far. And thanks SirGuess for your reductionism vs holistic references. Sure wish the nay-sayers and their strawman tactics (ie. build a strawman and then knock the hell out of him and walk away satisfied that you're a hero) hadn't stopped your thread on breathing with their personal attacks. Oh, and thanks RAF for your anecdotal evidence that oxygenated water isn't harmful. My very first question, two years ago when I first found out that adding oxygen to water could be helpful, was the possibility that adding too much might be detremental. That was answered to my satisfaction in an email from Dr. Philip James, who carries on what Dr. Haldane started at the Wolfson Hyperbaric Medicine Unit in England. Dr. Haldane is known worldwide as the "Father of Oxygen Therapy" and the Haldane Effect (which deals with O2 effects in the body), as well as the Bohr Effect (which deals with CO2 effects in the body), speed or retard hemoglobin loading and unloading, as does the quality and quantity of water in the body, and such things as pH. So thanks Cowgirl for your post about the matter of pH balance. It is also a worthy topic for discussion but we still, after 280 posts, haven't even gotten to the point of oxygen in water being noncontroversial, and around for over thirty years (ie. Dr. Pakdaman's work, and water, in Germany), let alone being able to settle down and discuss the Haldane Effect, the Bohr Effect, concentration effects, and pH effects on the rate at which hemoglobin and myoglobin are loaded and unloaded. These are all areas that I surely would like to know more about and if you have further thoughts on how pH might be affected by oxygen concentration in the plasma or lymph, please say on. I'm by no means an expert on these subjects. I should say that the warning "contraversial" regarding oxygen content in water seems always to come from the folks in the medical field or the fans of medicine. It is in their interest that it stay "contraversial" as long as possible so they don't lose too many customers to good health. Already there are alternative medicine wards in many hospitals because this "niche market" was cutting into their business and they wanted another profit center. Who says Penta Water is the only one interested in making money?

Hello all. I've some bad news to report. At least I think everyone will be saddened except Grizz- who will probably jump for joy realizing he can now safely come back to Ohio. Matthew came down from the house over the weekend and said that Fluff was limping again. Ah, the Mighty Fluff, killer of mountain lions and Grizzley Bears, is limping again in his old age. Seems that drinking the oxygenated water last spring only made the limp go away for about six months. But the water he was given really was for Grandma, Mathews very, very old cat and she died last fall and so Fluff didn't get any more oxygenated water since then. Grandma had been incontenent for about a year and was as lovable a cat as you'll ever find. She liked the water, as did Fluff, but it couldn't turn the clock back and make a kitty out of her again. So Matthew, with tears in his eyes, dug a hole in the yard to burry her in and while digging came across what he thought was a root. So he cut it with a pair of big nippers and found that it was the gas line coming from the street. Made the neighborhood quite lively for a while with the road being closed off, search lights in the yard as it was dark before the gas company had it repaired- in short, Grandma had quite a send-off. Anyway, since Fluff wasn't limping anymore he got his old tap water again (well water with zero oxygen in it) that his dad figures is mighty fine water, although i won't drink it as one can smell the sulfur in it- like most wells close to rivers. So my neighbor John figures it's just the kind of situation to do a double blind test on- and I have to agree. For now we'll just have to say that Fluff's limp went away for about six months and then came back again after drinking no oxygenated water for maybe four months. Ah, I can't wait for the double blind study about to happen. But the incident brought to mind that in my summary a while back I forgot to include the evidence regarding animals drinking highly oxygenated water. As I said early on, Fluff was the most dramatic, although certainly not the only "evidence" (whether anecdotal, hard, soft, profound, solid, ...., not worthy to read, or whatever you want.) The first evidence I learned about, and even flew out to Portland, OR to investigate further, was the four horses used in the test by the German firm with it's diffuser. That was a double blind test but not published. The vet in attendence took the blood samples and found both the veneous plasma and the arterial plasma oxygen increased by 18%. The horses preformed the same speed workout with corresponding reduction in heart rate. Another horse was a standardbred named Jo Jo Road who first started drinking the oxygenated water (but not distilled) from the system I sold the trainer the first part of February last year. If you look at her races during that time she cut about 4 seconds off her time as I recall. It's public information, look it up if you want to. I stopped talking to the trainer a couple of months later when he seemed to me a less than steller guy. Then there was a thoroughbred who's name I now forget. I'd worked for his trainer maybe eight years ago and she said he would drink no water the day of the race but she didn't mind if I put five gallons in his water bucket anyway. He drank it all and finished mid pack instead of up the track, although the trainer didn't think it was an improved preformance. That was the summer of '03. Three months later I went down again and gave him the water for a couple of days prior to his race and then came back to Cleveland and took a friend to the simulcast facility here to watch the race. After the race she said there was no question in her mind that the horse had run a far superior race to what his past preformances said about him- and she's been looking at thoroughbred races for 50 years or more. Then there was a five day old kitten the same friend was given that had been born of an alley cat and had a prolapsed rectum from all the worms in her gut at the time of birth and trying too hard to get rid of them. The vet was not very optimistic about her chances but gave her a dewormer and a couple of days later did surgery on her in hopes the rectum would stay inside her. From the time she was given to my friend until after the surgery she was given oxygenated water and she came through the surgery in fine order and the vet commented on how fast she healed up. It's evidence of whatever kind you want to call it. Then there's the "evidence" reported in the Edmonton Sun, that I posted a while back. Then there's the chickens that didn't die from the chicken flu in Thialand a year or so ago, while all the other chickens on the farm not given oxygenated water died. Then there are the four chickens here that are spoiled rotten by me, and watching them drink oxygenated water is like watching a wine tasteing contest. They benifit because of the story I'd learned about the laying hens in Thialand. But none of them were sick and the two new borns have enjoyed it since they were first hatched back in September. I was worried they wouldn't survive the cold of winter here but they've grown very fast and perhaps are like the old line about the American indian in wintertime, "The Indian goes naked with impunity while the white man shivers in his clothes." By the way, the old one eyed rooster, though generally the last one out when I open the door if it's not too cold outside- say mid twenties or above- no longer has gunk coming out of the eye socket and appears to have healed up from the war of the roosters a year or so ago. Then there is the evidence from the two studies referenced in the one given on this thread to debunk them (the one about horse preformance that never should have been done that's maybe half way back in this thread, and funded by the American Council on Exercse, the "workout watchdog".) No doubt I've forgotten other "animal evidence", but then I'm not writing a thesis here, just contributing to a general discussion in hopes of learning something and going through the volumes of notes I've taken on the subject over the past two years. If it was a "class" you all may be assured that I would have something in the nature of a "green card" to fill out for admission. Hell, if I owned a university I'd even have an Office of Admissions to screen out those who couldn't even get in to the university let alone get into a specific class. After all, in any class the teacher is the dictator, no matter that he or she may allow far more roudiness than other teachers might (generally at the expense of the other students, who's time also is valuable). Krys, I'm waiting for you post on the lymph system so I can learn something. I doubt that most on this thread ever heard of Chyle until I mentioned the word. It is where the lymph system begins, and that I learned from a physiology book, not some kind of bogus double blind, placebo controlled, test that ends with a "p number" to say something like "we're guessing here but the statistical analysis shows there's less than a 5% chance you'll die if we're wrong. As you rightly point out, the devotees of "medical science" confuse it with the exact sciences, which every engineer first has to learn before they're put in a seperate category that actually applies exact science to practical things- the folks generally known as engineers, and who also are generally known as the most creative people on planet earth. I've never used p numbers in my life other than in the numerous statistics courses I've had over the years so I'd know what they were. One vet on Horsescience even corrected my simplistic statement about them and referred me to an education site that defined p numbers as "an estimate that the probability of an assumption being true was correct". I replied, "Yep, a guess of a guess of a guess- third order guesswork". But hey, those that want to worship the medical profession are free to do so, just like those that want to assert the existance of a Trinity- their problem, not mine. Fact is that the lymph system begins with Chyle in the small intestine and ends with being dumped off into the blood stream at the lymph nodes. What happens inbetween is what I'm interested in learning more about, not in someone who figures they learned all they need to know about the lymph in ninth grade and then posts that they were right after being told by me that they were wrong (Zixar). Fact is that I can go into a one bedroom house or the largest building in the world and tell you where the water comes in and where it goes out, no matter what happens inbetween. Seems to me that folks need to at least realize that their bodies have a lymph system and that it is twice the size of the blood system. From what I've read, the AMA is way behind Europe when it comes to the study of the lymph system, and that's probably because they never even had a course in college on neutrition until a relatively few years ago. Suffice it to say that there are many qualified and brillient people in the field of physiology and the biological sciences that have as much distain for statistical analysis as I do and are not medical doctors. Finally, you appear to have gotten the wrong idea about Zixar's post on medical grade oxygen being a danger if not prepared according to "current good practice regulations" or something like that. He implied that welding grade oxygen is inferior to medical grade and that implication was dead wrong. The fact is that both welding grade and medical grade come from the same sources and the regulations for medical grade have no control over anyone not needing a doctors perscription to buy oxygen that is mostly being paid by medicare, and the like. And one other misperception. Penta Water's five molecule cluster is not the same as water molecules going single file through the cell wall that is five water molecules thick and flipping end for end half way through, for which the folks got the Nobel Prize. Penta Water's claim is only that a five water molecule cluster will end up going through a membrane faster than a larger cluster, and weither that is provable or not remains to be seen. It seems reasonable to me that a small cluster arriving at the cell wall will be easier to order in single file than a larger cluster, but others say that most all water in the body is in five molecule clusters. That also remains to be seen. As fo an old thought that keeps nagging, anyone wanting to persue "The Amazing Randi's" Prize should realize that the guy is a magician. I've read the reasonable reply of Penta Water to his quiry on his site and his rude response to it. All I can say is that if one wants to go after anything he promises, they aught to think about the rabbit in the hat routine.

Hey George, you remind me of my neighbor who, by the way, is a very helpful and kind hearted guy, but demands proof and won't believe the proof even when it's furnished to him as regards oxygenated water. He's the reason I know so much about the negative posts at the beginning of this thread because he furnished the "studies" to me a year and a half ago that he thought debunked my reports. But he's an engineer like I am and so we have plenty to talk about besides oxygenated water and get along quite well. But I wll say that the snake oil salesmen of a former time have been very successful. They are now known as the American Medical Association and such companies as Glaxo, Lilly, et. al. They've all made huge amounts of money selling drugs, making people wait for doctors appointments, and hiding such things as the accidental death rate in hospitals and the malpractice suits that result in such high insurance costs. So to combat the unscrupulous promotion and sale of unsafe products they are required to fund double blind studies to 1. show that their product is not dangerous to health, and 2. to show there is some possibility of good to the purchaser- no matter that since they fund the studies they can hide all but the ones they want to publish. But that's far different than telling someone they can't plant their own garden before first funding a double blind study, let alone eating the produce from it. Like you, I'd like to see the AMA take up the matter of oxygen in water and it's benifits (or possible dangers) to health, which is one of the reasons I'm posting here. After some 244 posts, of which 55 are mine, I'd hoped that someone would search the internet and find AMA or drug company funded studies to show there were dangers or to show there were no benifits. After all, they are the ones that stand to lose money if people are healthier. The reason I assumed such would show up is that the simple matter of adding oxygen to water threatens their money-making schemes. But all I've seen is innuendo, insult, defamation, and most of the other tactics used to discredit an idea not shared or investigated by others, or perhaps detrimental to their income stream or their reputation as "experts". But now we have some show up to even complain about how long the thread is. And I laugh because it is such a simple thing, adding oxygen (not ozone, not hydrogen peroxide, not bleach) to water, whether distilled, tap, well, etc. And with such large quantities of water being bought at the store, including Penta Water, the assumption must be that these are not dangerous to your health or for sure the AMA would have shut them down years ago. I mean, even Coke and Pepsi have water products that add oxygen and you can't get any more main stream than that. The question only is how much oxygen in water is good for you and the mecidal doctors I've talked to say more is always better. So I've showed people how they can make their own and have it saturated when they drink it (75ppm) and, if they don't want to make it themselves they can buy it in the store at 40-50 ppm (Penta Water). It sort of reminds me of Grace Bliss recommending seven grain bread rather than white bread back in the 60's. My only complaint about that recommendation was that it was so difficult to get seven grain bread. I sure didn't like some people at the time telling me that I would die if I ate white bread, and so my response was that if they furnished me with seven grain bread I would surely prefer it over white bread, becaue I did. But those were the days before the "mainsteam" grocery stores even thought about having "natural" products on their shelves. Just the other day I thought about Grace when I picked up a loaf of fourteen grain bread at the supermarket. Bless her heart! But whether you're an athiest or not, I rather suspect you really do care about people and their health and so I'll tell you my current "grand plan", namely to get a job with either the government or Penta Water or the like and head off to Bagdad to set up a plant to make oxygenated water. That part of the world has a serious problem with low oxygen levels in their water and it affects lots of things, causing a bad attitude among other ill health issues. (the brain does take 20% of the oxygen we consume daily in spite of the fact that it is only 3% of our body weight). So about all I can say to you is, "Try it, you'll like it".

Raf: I'm sorry to hear your report above, but it does make my point about the power of eyewitness testimony. I was really thinking more of a murder trial because that is what brought the subject up, the statement by Zixar that I should shut up before someone died from my stupidity- ie. I'd be a murderer, and then be convicted and put to death as such. So I demanded a name and Krysilis came to Zixar's defense, citing some "policy" that I was not a part of making, had no knowledge of, and have no interest in. Next someone will say that being convicted of murder by stupidity is ludicrous, and on and on. And as much as I like mental gymnastics and sparring, I have no interest in doing so with people who will not give their name, nor with lots that give their name. Fact is that any "proof" of anything, whether in a science lab or in a court of law, begins with the researcher, or accuser, giving their name. A judge can even ask a person observing a trial to give his or her name or have the baliff escort them from the courtroom. And so, in answer to "what's in a name" I say everything! For good (or bad) reason some here may not want to give their name, and I respect that and knew it when I started the thread. But my charity in that regard doesn't extend to some fictcous character accusing me of being a potential murderer. As Linda Z said eary on in this thread, they can always go to another table. But I did see the job that "the thugs" did to Sirguessalot's thread on breathing and have been wondering ever since how one prevents that from happening other than just leaving entirely and let them destroy a perfectly civil discussion by their nameless attacks. Seems he's very capable of figuring that one out before I do! Anyway, in a murder trial (and I'm somewhat familiar with them having expended my last dime and last energies trying, unsuccessfully, to assert my mother's right to live where she wanted for the last 12 years of her life, rather than being declared incompetent (and then competent and then incompetent again numerous times as it suited the "powers that be") and slammed into a nursing home out of state for those 12 long years, while Ohio pretended she'd willingly moved to West Virginia so it wasn't their business, and West Virginia ignored the matter by saying that the jurisdiction was Mayfield Heights, Ohio), if two or three witnesses under oath testify that they saw the murderer kill the victum, no amount of "expert testimony" about dna, balistics, whatever, will change that- for one can always find opposing "experts" to say the opposite. And so the only way to overcome those two or three eyewitnesses is to find two or three others willing to testify that they saw the same man somewhere else at the same time. Then the jury has to decide who is lying and who is telling the truth, and if unsure, they can't overcome "reasonable doubt". This all assumes we're dealing with a legitimate court of law- an assumption that probably isn't valid today in the FEDGOV system. Hell, since 9/11 people can be jailed forever just because they are "a person of interest" and not even be accused of a crime. And so I brought the matter of oxygenated water to this forum to be judged by a jury of my suposed "peers" in this court of public opinion. I've stated my reasons for doing so and somewhat of my qualifications and contempt for the medical profession in general as well as the legal profession and the political "profession", not to mention that I believe that good is stronger than evil because we overcome evil with good, or tons of other scripture that I assume most here are familiar with. I'll even apologize for giving the biblical coordinates in Matthew and Hebrews if it would help. So I'll leave you for now with a quote from James M. Walker, that ends his book "The Theory of The Common Law", written in 1852 and published by Little, Brown and Company of Boston. "Finally, I have endeavored to show that our system of jurisprudence consists of many subordinate parts, all of which are connected by beautiful dependencies, and each of them, as I have fully persuaded myself, is reducable to a few plain elements, that will commend themselves to our natural reason, or be justified by the history and situation of our political ancestors. But if the law be merely an unconnected series of decisions and statutes, its use may remain, though its dignity as a science be lost. Reason must yield its supremacy to memory, and the 'cantor formularum' is the greatest of lawyers." (cantor formularum means "singer of formulas" unless someone else, who knows latin, can come up with a bettera translation- my Black's Law Dictionary doesn't have an entry for it.)

No Raf. What we have is two live witnesses, in Kit Sober and myself, that are willing to put our names behind our testamony, not so that lawyers can insult juries but so that juries can weigh evidence. The concept of a witness goes back at least to the book of Matthew (18:`6), "...in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established" and Hebrews (6:16), "For men verity swear by the greater: and an oath for conformation is to them an end of all strife." And so this thread started by Kit Sober asking me to post what I knew about oxygenated water to a group that suposedly consisted of ex-way people. She has stated, as have I, that drinking distilled water with oxygen added to approximately 75 ppm has been benificial. No one has stated that they found doing so not benificial or in fact harmful. The closest commercial product that I know of is Penta Water, which according to my dissolved oxygen meter, and their claims, measures about 40 ppm. Although I can't say Krysilis and Mstar1 are "witnesses" in the sense of being willing to swear under oath before a jury of their peers, because I don't know that they would be willing to do so, in this forum they are at least "peer equal" to those who give no evidence but rather merely defame, misrepresent, or change the discussion- and none of them have given us their real name so we might know who they are or where they are coming from, except you. So I'm happy to answer you as I agree that healthy scepticism is benificial. Mean spirited scepticism, misrepresentation and out and out lies are something else entirely. And the most mean spirited fiction was set up to be an expert in chemistry who now says And so I ask, who is the poser here, me or Zixar? I would merely change the quote and insert his name instead of mine, for his "information" is sheer .... and his intention is to stop anybody from enjoying the benifit of oxygenated water, weither bought from the store or made themselves. We're now suposed to think it's all very dangerous and I've not found it so in a year and a half and Mstar1 has not found it dangerous in two and a half years. Nor have I heard from a single medical doctor that it was dangerous in the least. In fact, a lymphyatic specialist, my cousin Russ's doctor at the Cleveland Clinic, merely yawned as if the subject was too boring for him to even consider. And he's suposed to know the lymphatic system in and out. He didn't tell Russ not to drink it and he knew Russ's medical history better than anyone. To debunk Zixar's latest salvo about medical grade oxygen killing people because it was not "filled in accordance with the current good manufacturing practice regulations", (which regulations have no jurisdiction whatsoever over any but medical grade oxygen), I drove over to my oxygen supplier, Great Lakes Oxygen, to quiz them about the possibility of carbon monoxide getting into an oxygen bottle and the fellow I talked with said exactly the same thing as I did, that this was ..... He went on to say that his company regularly certified it's oxygen to 99.995% pure and further confirmed, as have others, that both medical grade and welding grade oxygen come from the same sources, and added that many times if one company's plant is closer to a customer than the sellers, that the sellers empty truck gets loaded at the competators plant under some reciprocity agreement because it's the same product. Such arrangements make perfect sense to reduce hauling cost and is like the power companies buying electricity from a competator rather than having to fire up another boiler to carry peak loads, when it is less costly to do so. Now if you actually tried Penta Water, or any other oxygenated water for that matter, and found that you burped, that would be a serious matter to discuss or investigate further. I rather think at this point that you haven't actually done so and are merely saying .... using different words. That's your privilege but it's hardly evidence of any sort. The other notable piece of information furnished by my oxygen supplier was that they used to bottle their own medical grade oxygen until about five years ago when the regulations were changed (FEDGOV regs) to insist on a second source for medical grade oxygen. It didn't change the fact that they are all the same (at least four 9's pure), it just meant more trucks coming in, more companies to deal with, and a vastly increased paperwork load. So they got out of the business of filling their own medical grade bottles and merely act as a middleman in that end of the business. There are only a handfull of companies that actually make oxygen from air- BOC, AGA, Linde, Air Products, corp. and probably a couple of others I'm not familiar with. Great Lakes Oxygen buys theirs from Air Products in Pittsburg and the real issue is that they are governed by industry standards rather than by the medical establishment and I leave it to you to decide which is more reliable. I'll take long standing industry standards of 99.995 pure over government regulations and some supposed advantage in cleanliness which is largely myth and hype. I have my own bottle and so know exactly what is in it. If I rented bottles from them I'd still know what is in it since they routinely pull a vacuum on each bottle before it is filled. So much for my mythical example of delierately trying to contaminate their product by pulling a vacuum on my bottle and sticking it by the exhaust pipe to get as much carbon monoxide in as I could. They just pull it back out before refilling my bottle. As for cleanliness of their operation, or of any other welding supplier for that matter, I'd be more concerned breathing LA air or eating off of someone elses tableware than I would of a contaminated oxygen bottle. Oh, I haven't yet heard back from Dr. Park, the source of your "evidence" that oxygenated water was bunk. I guess he's too busy "proving" that man was never created.

From Zixar: Obviously they didn't teach you in 9th grade that the lymph begins as Chyle in the small intestine and ENDS being dumped off into the blood stream at the lymph nodes. In other words, it's the sewer water that gets dumpted into the circulatory system, not the fresh water we drink, which bathes every cell of the body to dump off oxygen and neutrants and pick up the trash on it's way to the lymph nodes. From your last post it sounds to me like you're the Tin Man in need of a drop of oil to stop the squeeking instead of Mickey Mouse or Donald Duck. Krys has given me good reason for her not reavealing her true identity here. You have given nothing and your latest scurrilous attacks require an attorney to defend against- at least a good trial lawyer will tell you that eye witness testimony beats double blind, placebo studies all to hell. And your latest attack on medical grade oxygen (with the implication that the folks that make, distribute and sell welding grade oxygen are far inferior to those that handle medical grade) has only caused those that may need medical grade oxygen to breathe to wonder if they will get poisoned in the process. Perhaps you do not know that all oxygen made these days comes from the cooling of air down to around minus 200 degrees C and then boiling off the oxygen (b.p. -182.962 C) after boiling off the nitrogen (b.p. -195.8 C). In the process, all the other gasses are seperated and sold, but these consist of less than 1% of the total weight of air. I will tell you that when I visited the plant on the Ohio River, I didn't examine all the design details of the plant to insure purity, but the plant manager did say to let him know when any horses running at Mountaineer were given oxygneated water because he wanted to bet on them. But that was a real, live, engineeer talking to a real, live, engineer, not an engineer talking to a cyberspace fiction. If you have anything further to say to me, use your real name instead of being a coward and a fear-monger! As for your early defamation attempts, please be advised that I am a Christian, and am not in the least embarrassed or regretful about promomting PFAL. I'd still recommend it as VPW was an excellent bible teacher and lots of folks learned a great deal of bible knowledge from him. What they did or didn't do with the information is their business. I just don't rcommend the outfit he set up, especially The Way Corps and it's "leadership" training. To me it was the blind leading the blind and they both fell into the ditch. Perhaps you were one of those trainees and that's what makes you so obnoxous now. Or maybe you're just an imposter here, intent on spreading hatred, misinformation, and discontent.

Zixir: I'm beginning to think you are the quack chemist on this thread. My bottle of generic bleach says 5.25% Sodium Hypochlorite, Inert ingredients 94.75%, for a total of 100%. It's the bleach sold in stores to whiten clothes and I really don't care to know what all the inerts are in the bottle, whether salt, dirt, water or whatever. Obviously there are many bleaching agents in the world, but you brought up the subject to suggest that molecular oxygen is bleach. It is not. Quack, quack. The common understanding of the word bleach is the stuff I have in front of me in a gallon bottle, "Austins A-1 BLEACH" (the cheeper dealer in competition with Chlorox). But you're not alone in wanting to confuse molecular oxygen with the "baddies" of the world. It seems the medical profession has changed the old term "free radical" to "oxygen free radical" and then to "reactive oxygen species" in an effort to include molecular oxygen as a baddie when reading all the studies done over the years using the former terms. As anybody in the field of hyperbarics will tell you, adding molecular oxygen to one's body will decrease the formation of free radicals, not increase them. It's the reason that hyperbarics works in the healing of so many diseases and physical damage, and it's the reason that oxygenated water works. I'm not talking about ozone or about hydrogen peroxide, both of which will increase the formation of free radicals and are poisons. I'm talking about molecular oxygen.

to continue: Numerous other bottled water that has come up on this thread (that mentioned in a Sports Illustrated article regarding Stanley Cup Hockey players, the Park flame and the "study" at U of Wisconsin that should never have been done) also contained double the amount of oxygen found in tap water. Other flames have mentioned bottled water that is no more than tap water and so buyer beware applies to those buing bottled water. Penta Water does have 40-50 ppm oxygen added and I've explained how you can make it yourself at the maximum level under atmospheric conditions of about 75 ppm. 3. Fish hatcheries have routinely used 20 ppm water to transport fish- which is the reason most dissolved oxygen meters only go up that high. Due to the increased interest in oxygenated water, one European firm, OxyGuard, now makes one that goes up to 50 ppm and their web site says it is a popular item world wide. (costs about $700). 4. Long about the time that Park was publishing his flame (1999) a German firm sent a representative to test their defuser and the oxygenated water made with it, on horses in Portland, OR. Those tests were not published except that the owner of the Horsescience list, not subject to the companies nondisclosure requirement, and a consultant for the horse farm that had the high speed tread mill, published them on his web site. Those tests showed that horses having access to oxygenated water around the 40 ppm level for four hours prior to test, ran at the same rate of speed with with a 15-20 % decrease in heart rate and both veneous and arterial plasma oxygen levels were 18% higher. This was a cross-over test- and is how I first learned about the subject of oxygenated water, as the owner of the list wanted me to come up with a simple way to make the water so he could sell it to horse people. 5. In June, 2003, my cousin Russ fainted while going to get a drink of water while waiting to be called at the Cleveland Clinic and this event caused me to get serious about oxygenated water. Both he and I experienced noticable and positive benifits from drinking the home-made, distilled, oxygen saturated water. My biggest concern at the time was the possible negative consequences of drinking such water but in the months that followed those concerns were dispelled, first by Dr. Phillip James, then by Dr. Paul Spears, then by numeropus other doctors, vets, and the like, and finally by all the evidence of perhaps millions of people drinking oxygenated bottled water, whether the oxygenation level is published on the label or not. 6. In November 2003 I flew out to Portland to see the treadmill and set-up used for the horse test there, showed Ivers how to simply make oxygen saturated water, found out that medical grade oxygen required a doctors prescription to obtain, (I'd been using welding grade and still do- as did the folks doing the horse test two or three years prior- none of the horses died and I haven't died. The oxygen all comes from the same place except that medical grade has 5% water added, aviation grade, that you breathe while flying at 50,000 feet has every drop of moisture removed so valves don't stick, and the bulk goes to welding grade. The medical grade folks claim to be more careful in keeping their bottles clean, but what dirt can get into a closed system at 2500 psi?), examined the diffuser used, typical German workmanship, probably being readied to market as a shower head for upscale homes so those folks could shower with highly oxygenated water, or fill their swimming pools with it, etc. and left after Ivers welched on his committment to let me take back the Oxyguard meter he had. So I built my own for a cost of $125 so I could start comparing various bottled waters to see just how much or how little oxygen they had in them- my way of either confirming or denying that the reason for all that bottled water out there is that at least a sizable portion of it has oxygen added and this is what makes it not a fad that will soon pass, because people do notice the difference and come back for more. to me that is better evidence than all the nay-sayers in the world. 7. Over the past year perhaps a hundred or more people I know have been drinking the water I make or have shown them how to make themselves. I also had occassion to use it on two horses and both improved in their preformance. The Edmonton Sun article of just a few weeks ago is the latest demonstration that oxygenated water is being used successfully with horses and no downside to drinking it has been reported anywhere or I'm sure the nay-sayers would have reported it here over the past six weeks. That article also provides information on how you can have your water oxygenated for a cost of $7,500. With the system explaned in the post to Grizz, you can make it a batch at a time (instead of fill your pond with it) at a cost of maybe $400 (or less if you have a corny keg, can make the hoses and fittings, have an oxygen regulator, have an oxygen bottle and have a water distiller.) One final word about economics. A month or so I read a report stating that the median net worth of an american family was $11,000, excluding the value of a home which could go to zero in a hurry. That was for the year 2000. since then the dollar has declined dramatically against the other currencies of the world and so I assume the net worth figure is now close to zero. That means that "the poor" now includes half the families of america. And when people get their backs to the wall and can't afford food, let alone medications and doctors appointments, things get real ugly in a hurry. And ugliness takes it's toll on the oxygen level in your brain. Having the ability to make your own oxygenated water will help that problem, just as it helped Dr. Pakdaman's patients 30 or more years ago. As for me, when I read the article I concluded that it only cost me $11,000 to not even try to keep up with the Jones's all these years and figured I'd made a rather good investment of my time. So also, posting here for the past six weeks or so has made the winter go by rather nicely. Won't be long at all until the maple trees are ready to be tapped.

Oops, pushed the wrong button

Thanks Krys for the input- and for all your input on this thread. I was under the impression that horses could store hemoglobin in the spleen but people couldn't- but that piece of information came from the "owner" of of the Horsescience group, Tom Ivers. According to him, when the heart rate of a horse goes above 160 bpm, their spleen dumps up to 50% more hemoglobin into the blood stream but that people's spleens don't have the capacity to do that. Perhaps it's a matter of degree rather than either/or. In any event, it helps explain what was going on with my cousin Russ after five years or more fighting lymphatic leukemia. It seems that his spleen lost the ability to release hemoglobin and so when they finally had to take it out, after many blood transfusions over a period of months, the surgeon said it was the largest spleen he'd ever seen. Until your post, I thought the human spleen was merely a filter of sorts that screened out the dead cells and sent them to the trash bin and passed on the live ones and his screen broke so that the live hemoglobin went to the trash as well. The ninety day average life cycle of a Red Blood Cell is a great piece of information to know because it points out that the circulatory system is not some static machine that one is born with and dies with, but rather a living, breathing unique set of cells that live, work, get sick and die (at least the Red Blood Cells do) all in a 90 day period of time. If it turned out that they were more healthy for that time, or perhaps lived another day or week by being surrounded by a hogher oxygen pressure in the lymph, that would be a wonderful thing. By the way, PubMed.com is a rich resource for studies done on oxygenated water as well as the rest of medical research. Many of the studies published there only have abstracts available for free and one must pay for the full paper- ah, even they are after our money! It is the main online archive for the National Institute of Health. There is another like it but I forget the name of it right now. Just punch in "oxygenated water" to their search engine and you'll see that the study of the subject is not as new as many here think it is. I think you'll even find Dr. Pakdaman's work back in the late 60's or early 1970's there- at least in the reference section of more recent papers. His was a published medical study done by a cancer surgeon on his patients using "Pakdaman's Water". The problem is it was published in German and I only had access to part of it, translated by the friend of a standardbred trainer I met from Finland, who's friend lives in Germany. His study, like many others I'm sure, would have been terminated as soon as he was convinced that everyone would benifit from it. Surely he would not have continued beyond that point because it would have been entirely unethical to withhold the oxygenated water from the cancer patents in the control group. Oh, and I owe you all an apology because I thought that all the posts to this thread came to my email box. I've read all that did come there but in going over the last two pages of this thread it seems that there are some that are posted that never made it to my inbox. I don't have the foggiest notion as to why that happened. And thanks Linda for trying to instill a little order to this thread. I don't think you had a thing to apologize for. A few comments for the detractors. First, I think the one about 3% carbon monoxide in welding grade oxygen is total horse dang. A major oxygen producer is on the Ohio River about 100 miles from here, and right next to Mountaineer Race Track. At the time I wanted to put a wading pool in the long walk back to the stables so that horses after a race could not only wash off and cool off while walking back after a race but could enjoy the benifits of oxygenated water to their skin while doing so. Normally the cost to do so would be prohibitive, except that this huge plant is right next door to them. Still working on that one. Anyway, the plant manager said that five truck loads of liquid oxygen went up to Detroit every week for their municipal and waste water treatment facility. That's 100 tons or thereabouts of LIQUID oxygen. The "only burp" folks can probably figure out how many burps that would be. Fact is that medical grade, welding grade, and aviation grade oxygen all come from the same process. So if the poster is right that there can be 3% carbon monoxide in welding grade oxygen, then it's also in medical grade and aviation grade. And the matter suggesting that I was comparing myself to Jesus Christ by quoting him as saying "though one raise from the dead still some won't believe" takes only the tinest bit of logic to figure out, ie. raise someone from the dead with oxygenated water and some still wouldn't believe it worked. My comment was about recalcitrant unbelief, like that displayed by some here the past few days, and had nothing whatsoever to do with me playing god. And a word about bleach. Bleach is sodium hypoclhorite and it's the chlorine that does the bleaching. What species of oxygen that may help I don't know, perhaps the resident chemist can amplify. I've learned precious little from him so far. From the comments about bleach one would think that everything in the world should be white from all that oxygen in the atmosphere. As for Oxyclean, the bottle I have of the liquid variety says it's a "secret blend of detergents" and the solid variety says that it should be mixed thoroughly with water so I assume it just avoids having to ship all that water around the country and therefore costs less. It does say that it contains no chlorine and that it breaks down into "naturally occurring elements", but doesn't say which naturally occurring elements. Ozone comes to mind, as does hydrogen peroxide, as does phosphates. I'm not suggesting anyone drink bleach or oxyclean. So how we could get to bleach from a discussion on oxygenated water, is truly bizzare. But since the subject of bleach has come up, a story comes to mind from the horse trainer I worked for back in '97. Seems there was a trainer that was getting tapped out on his feed bill and so a friend told him he'd heard that bleach will either make his horse run great or kill him. So the jerk stuffed a gallon of bleach down his throat and, of course, the horse died. Hey, it solved his feed problem! Jerk! And about "The Church of Reason". A best seller back in the early 70's, "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenence", by Robert Persig, goes into it in great detail- after warning us at the start that the book wasn't very fair to Zen and wasn't very accurate about motorcycles either. I used to give a copy of it to all my chemistry and physics students. Anyway it's still in the philosophy section of most book stores and no doubt can be found on eBay or whereever in paperback form. Persig makes the case that the scientific community functions just like the organized church. It has it's hierarchy that functions on the level of greed, lies, income, control and pecking order, and it's "true believers" that function entirely independently of the hierarchy- until push comes to shove and the true believers get kicked out or give up and leave. So it is with any field. One has to watch out for the hierarcy while not dismissing the true believers. I daresay that applies to the field of medicine in spades, especially when it comes to "medical research" and things like "p numbers". Generally such research is funded by a drug company or their serogates so their product can get approved by USDA and they can make lots of money. The trick there is to show that the possible benifits of the drug outweigh the possible damage. The true believers doing such work are few and far between because they don't get funded unless they toe the line with the hierarchy. So far on this thread I trust that most of the "true believers" reading have remained silent while those that figure I'm out to set up yet another pecking order in the Church of Reason are the rudest and most adament to prove that I'm a jerk. For example, the tirade about my explaining what PE meant was brought on by my decision to post the email sent to Dr. Park. I could have just deleted the PE in the copy posted on this thread but then it wouldn't have been what I sent to Dr. Park and someone, sooner or later, would say I was deceptive in not posting the exact email to him. Heads I lose, tails I lose. So I just read the tirade and said to myself, "jerk!" I'm sure he doesn't care in the slightest that I think he's a jerk and I don't care in the slightest that he thinks I'm a jerk. But the fact is that Dr. Park's name came up as an authority in physics to debunk oxygenated water and the hours it took me to find out about him showed him to be more interested in propaganda than in teaching anyone any physics. Anyway, maybe next time I'll just summarize what I think are the salient points of this thread and move on down the line. What I'll remember is that Krys was actually helped by drinking oxygenated water. I knew Kit Sober was helped before I even got here. Hopefully others are at least thinking about the possibility that it might help them. As for the rest, have a nice life.

RAF, the above quote comes from Dr. Park's weekly online newsletter, "What's New", July 23, 1999. Notice that he has referenced a bottled water company that, he claims, publishes that their water has twice as much oxygen as tap water and that this amount is 1500 ppm. At first I thought it was just a typo in his newsletter because 15.00 ppm is close to double the amount of oxygen in tap water. But then one wonders why any company would advertize both the words "double that of tap water" and "15.00 ppm" (or 1500 ppm for that matter) in the same ad, as if four significant figures had any relivance whatsoever. But then he says that bottling 1500 ppm water is certainly doable if bottled under pressure. I assure you that bottling water with oxygen in it at 1500 ppm would take a bottle that would hold 20 atmospheres of pressure or close to 300 psig. There is no bottle that I know of in the beverage industry that will safely withstand such pressure- and I rather think Dr. Park knows that! Fact is, that if he meant 15 ppm instead of 1500 ppm, there would be no pressure needed to bottle it if a.) the water was bottled to the very top of the bottle, like Penta Water does, or b.) the gas over the water was oxygen rather than air. And even in an air atmosphere it would only generate pressure if the temperature was raised, which is why one generally hears a psst with Coke and Pepsi's entries into the bottled water business (Disanti and Aquafina), when the bottle is opened luke warm rather than being taken out of the refrigerator. Anyway, Dr. Park admits in his next newsletter that that his calculations were seriously off- but nowhere corrects the 1500 ppm number, and his relying on it to do his calculation as to how much water the hockey players would have to drink to boost their blood oxygen level by 1%, proves that he used it. So in either case, whether a misprint or deliberate, Dr. Park's follow-up "correction" is deliberately misleading. Anyway, I took the liberty to email him so we'll see if he replies. Below is that email. For those who don't know what PE means at the end of my name I should explain lest anyone try to sue me for using it. It means "Registered Professional Engineer", and is obtained by passing 16 hours of exams after obtaining a bachlors degree in an engineering field, working as an EIT- "Engineer in Training" for four years, (eight years if one has no engineering degree but can still pass the tests) and then writing a paper on a design project (to show one was not idle during the EIT period.) But that was in 1970 when I fulfilled the requirements and was "Registered" (ie., my name entered in an official register and the number given me shows the line in the register where anyone can find the entry- if the register still exists!) I only learned lately that in 1980 the Administrative Codes were changed so that FEDGOV could collect yet another tax by requiring PE's to pay a yearly fee to keep their "License". Seems that in spite of the obvious work required to obtain the designation PE, that now it is considered a privilege bestowed by FEDGOV rather than a right obtained by demonstrated preformance. And since FEDGOV claims to have bestowed the "privilege" it obviously can tax the privilege. I've never paid that tax and have no intention of ever doing so. And so I didn't affix PE after my name in hopes of engaging in commerce with Dr. Park but only to show that I was registered even if not currently licensed. Seems that "Registered" and "licenced" are as confused by the powers that be today as 1500 ppm oxygen in water and 15.00 ppm oxygen in wateris confused by Dr. Park. But if anyone cares to read Dr. Park's current newsletter, they'll see that he comes from the typical Bible Bashing, evolution promoting, crew that many in the Church of Reason come from. (ie. he takes the recent Tsunami disaster as an occassion to belittle the Book of Job.) So, RAF, I'm not optimistic about receiving a reply from him but allow that it could happen. What the recent batch of naysayers seem to have in common is that they, like Dr. Park, assume that the oxygen in water has to get into the blood stream to do any good. I've tried to show that this is not the case. But my limited view of the lymph system seems only to have reached a resonant chord in Krysilis so far. My view comes from physiology text books used in medical schools and not "peer reviewed" medical "research". If someone can demonstarate that water, and any oxygen dissolved in it, does not go directly into the lymph system from the small intestine, then the texts books I read are wrong and I am wrong. But I don't think they are wrong and so I don't think I am wrong. So, until someone can show that the normal ratio of 2/3 water going into the lymph system and 1/3 going into the circulatory system is wrong, all the burpers, naysayers, or 8th grade general math students (those who hate math!) who just want to be heard in the classroom even though they've done no homework and have nothing to add to the class but are merely trying to figure out whether they are adults or children as hormonal growth factors run rampant, will change that. 7th, 8th and 9th graders have a lot on their plate without having to be subjected to sitting for an hour a day in a "math for dummies" class. In fact, a friend who has taught all her live figures they should all just stay home and not go to school at all during that time. We probably do them all a disservice by making them do so. But here we have the same mentality show up to "strut their stuff" and they could be having a good time elsewhere! What a pitty, expecially if I'm right that they really aren't junior high students. But hey Paw, looks like it's good for business at this fine establishment (if the kids don't break all the tables and chairs.)

Hello all. Looks like a few nay-saysers have showed up in an attempt to derail this discussion so please allow me to see if I can answer them all in one post. First of all, the fields of chemistry and physics are exact sciences and need no double- blind, cross-over tests to establish their validity. They are based on well proven laws that govern the universe and if one knows the laws he or she can use them to explain how something happens, why it happens, and predict what will happen if the same set of circumstances happen again- namely, the same thing, over and over again- as a matter of law not a matter of speculation or opinion. Some, it seems, are confused by what is based on law and fact and what is mere opinion. But that is their problem, not mine. Others confuse psudoscience with with exact science. But again, that is their problem not mine. Some, it appears, have not even read the many posts that preceed this one and to them I'll only say that I have no interest whatsoever in repeating what they could already read if they weren't so lazy. Goey has done us the favor of posting the link to the study he came across. I suggest you all read it- especially the fine print. For although they allude many times to "Superoxygenated water", the fact is that they did have both the tap water used as a control and the AquaRush brand bottled water used in the test (that they repeatedly say is billed at 7-10 times the amount of oxygen found in tap water) measured by the folks that know what they are doing at the University of Wesconsin (the testing lab) and report that the former contained 4.8 mlO2/l (ppm) verses 13.5 mlO2/l (ppm) in the AquaRush water. They should have saved their time and the American Council on Exercise's expense before they even began the test. For the AquaRush water they used is not "Superoxygenated" and, in fact, they could have used water coming over Niagara Falls this time of year and had a higher concentration of oxygen in the test water. The interesting thing about the study is the review of previous research at the beginning of it. Both of the studies mentioned showed there was a significant difference in preformance using oxygenated water verses using tap water. I didn't look up those papers and so don't know what oxygen concentration was in the test water of those studies. But evidently, these studies are what the one Goey referred to set out to refute. The "American Council on Exercise" funded the study and their web page bills them as "a Workout Watchdog". So I rather assume they funded the "research" with an ulterior motive in mind. Otherwise I can't explain why they didn't ask for their money back as soon as it was known that the "Superoxygenated water" they used was bogus and not even saturated to the level that exists in nature in the dead of winter at Niagara Falls and probably the University of Wisconsin as well. So reading between the lines, my guess is that the people doing the research as well as the people that funded it have their PhD's in Physical Education and not in any of the legitimate fields of science. Two of my cousins have their PhD's in phys ed and neither of them ever had a physics course or a chemistry course even in high school as best I remember. Nor do I remember them as mental giants or math wizzards. That doesn't make them low class citizens but does put into perspective what one thinks of in the area of scientific ressearch- namely an Einstein or a Newton. In any event, any scientist reading the "research" that Goey referenced, would laugh at their even publishing it after knowing what the lab measured as the oxygen content of the test water verses the control water. But the ignorance goes deeper even than that. Any physiologist will tell you that women have, on average, 8% (or some such number) less hemoglobin than men in their bodies- which is the reason they faint easier. And so to set up a test using 6 men and 6 women, and then "randomly" mixing them in the cross-over study, is sure to make the test meaningless. If you doubt that, just look at the tables in the test on heart rate and blood pressure. The range included with each number insures that there will be no significant differences found. Finally, the sample size (6 men and 6 women), who's only similarity seems to be that they are 22 years old, is so low one would think that millions of dollars in equipment cost or something else needed for the tests was involved rather than the cost of a bottle of water for each participant. Hell, they could have at least used the footabll team or basketball team, boy's or girls, for the test so they at least could assume they were all about at the same fitness level. But hey, if you've stacked the deck with bogus "Superoxygenated water" to begin with, why go to the trouble of giving the appearance that at least your sample size is reasonable. Also, they could easily have walked down to the physics department or engineering department and asked someone what the saturation of oxygen in air is verses what the saturation of oxygen is in a totally oxygen environment. These numbers have been around for a hundred years or more, or can esaily be calculated one from the other (using Henry's Law) and the fact that air contains about 21% oxygen.- so the equalibrium concentration of oxygen satureated water in an oxygen environment will be 100/21= 4.76 times as high at any given temperature and pressure than the corresponding saturation point in air. So round off the 4.76 to 5 and the oxygen saturation of water at 32 degrees F from 14.8 to 15 ppm (ml/l) and you have 75 ppm as the stauration point of oxygen in water at 32 degrees in a pure oxygen environment. Granted that in distilled water it might stay supersaturated by maybe 10% for a time but the rates at which water loses oxygen are a whole different subject- but guaranteed it doesn't lose all it's oxygen and revert back to the concentration in air in minutes or even hours- probably more like days. And to handle the objection of the fellow that calculated out (I didn't check his calculations) how little oxygen is in water, The analogy to one's car tires is appropriate. Water, with it's oxygen, that goes into the lymph system (approximately 2/3 of it) totally bypasses the circulatory system. Hemoglobin can only deliver it's oxygen at a maximum of 39 mmHg- and it goes down from there as we age. Oyxgen in the water I'm talking about (distilled water saturated with oxygen at 32 F) is close to 760 mmHg (atmospheric pressure). That's almost 20 times the pressure delivered at the cell wall as is possible by hemoglobin. And that is the difference between drinking oxygen saturated water and breathing air. The one doesn't by any means replace the other, it just does different things- like waking up cells that have been starved for oxygen because they're sick and oxygen at 39 mmHg doesn't get to them to make them better, or perhaps the hemoglobin is only delivering it's oxygen at 32 mmHg instead of 39, in which case a dose of higher oxygen partial pressure might keep cells alive even while it's also waking up those sick or lazy hemoglobin molecules. The matter of highly oxygenated water is more about rates and pressure gradients than it is about amounts. For example, in the average person some 80 million Red Blood Cells die per minute- just in the normal course of life. They die because they start getting to little oxygen and death happens when they get none. Perhaps Krys can give us more info on the normal life cycle of a red blood cell, but even if that was slowed down by only 1%, it would result in a substantial increase in oxygen delivery. Let's say you like a smooth ride in your car and so inflate the tires to only 28 psig. You'll burn more gas and your tires will wear out faster, but until you have a blow out from bald tires you'll have a better ride. On the other hand, if you have a car with good springs and shock absorbers, you'll probably not notice the difference in ride if you put air in the tires at 35 psig. You will get better gas milage, your tires will last longer, and you'll get to the same places you did when the air pressure was only 28 psig- only you'll get to more places before a blow out from bald tires occurs. Oh, before I go, there is another caveat to double-blind, cross-over, placebo controlled "research". One must add "well- designed" to really sound scientific. Obviously the one mentioned above was not well designed and should never have seen the light of day.

Here's a recent post lifted from a closed discussion group called Horsescience. Notice the similarities between what it says and what has been posted here since the beginning of December. Just a little more antedotal evidence about highly oxygenated water. Seems good news does travel as fast as bad news- it just travels in different circles. Why before long there will be so much antidotal evidence that the AMA might even sponsor one of those "peer reviewed" tests that nobody reads. Hmmm, maybe the Edmonton Sun is tapped into the Greasespotcafe.com!

Hey Goey, you're the one hiding your name, not me. I have no problem with who I am or people knowing my name. In fact, I even wrote a book with my name on it. It's called "The Two Ways of the First Century Church" and you can read the entire book, for free, including the brief biography at the end, at http://www.en.com/users/anders That will give you an even better idea of who I am, where I'm coming from, and why. In fact, if you have one you've written, I'll be happy to exchange hard copies and then we'll both know more about each other that we did before. But I still see no link furnished by you to the study you rely on to "prove" that highly oxygenated water doesn't work. Are you going to give us anything to go on, like maybe the title of the study, author's name, etc. or are we to believe it's as sloppy as your report of it with the 97% of something line? We're not talking rocket science here but merely water and oxygen. Good thing your mother didn't demand that AMA approved research papers be given her before giving you a glass of water or you'd have been dead long ago. So Pal, how about a name, a link, a title, something to go on to flesh out your cheep shot from the peanut gallary. Or maybe you can use your influence to have me thrown out of this fine establishment. For all I know you may be one of those rich and powerful people that can push your way around at the expense of others. You may even have some kind of vested interest in destroying a good thing because you want to sell something else. If not, buy some Penta Water and try it. It won't kill you and just might help you. But it will cost you more than the water from your kitchen sink so that's a consideration. Hey, I know, make some yourself! I've told you how to do it and so you can save lots of money, maybe even go into competition with Penta Water and sell it in your neighborhood. Just don't process the water like they do or you'll be in violation of their patent. Personally I think it's the oxygen they add that makes it benificial and not the five water molecule clusters- that may or may not survive until you drink it. Actually, what I'm trying to give you here is some Power for Abundant Living. I didn't get the information from VPW, though he was an excellent teacher, even if a liar and a thief as you say. But the Master that I serve really does want you to have life and have it more abundantly than anybody before him was able to give. But then maybe you're one of those unfortunates that threw out the baby with the bathwater when your "hero" didn't get you all the goodies you wanted. Any more at all about the University of Wesconsin study you brought up- suposedly for discussion?

Hey Goey, how about posting the link to the study you alude to so we can find out what they said and did't say for ourselves. At least your predecessors in the naysayer camp had the courtesy to do that much. The 97% number you throw in is meaningless since you didn't tell us what it was 97% of. If it is suposed to mean that the hemoglobin is 97% saturated in the arterial side of the circulatory system, that's one thing. If it's suposed to mean that the red blood cells carry 97% of the oxygen in the circulatory system, that's something else. So which is it? In the former case, 97% saturated hemoglobin (or SaO2) is almost meaningless since it doesn't tell you if you're in the process of dying because you have so few red blood cells left that you can't possibly furnish the oxygen needs of your body- even though those few cells and their hemoglobin is 97% saturated, or if you're so stinking healthy that your heart only needs to beat one time per minute to carry all the oxygen your body needs and your heart, arteries, veins and lungs are in such good shape that the resistance the heart sees when it does squeeze one stroke's worth of blood out is less than 120/80. In other words, the question "How's your hemoglobin doing" cannot be answered by a simple SaO2 measurement. I do know, and I believe I mentioned it early on in this thread, that a person can be kept alive without any hemoglobin function whatsoever if the plasma oxygen concentration can be increased to 30ppm in a hyperbaric chamber. It's been done and so is simply a fact, not something that needs statistical analysis or double blind, peer reviewed papers to give it credibility. Fact is that this thread is much more of a peer reviewed study than any you're likely to find coming out of any medical school- they're lucky to find 10 readers instead of hundreds or thousands. But then Martin Luther's Ninety Five Thesis probably doesn't count either because it wasn't a double blind peer reviewed study. He posted it on the church door at the university of Wittenburg so that everyone, professor and student alike could review it and comment on it as they liked. I dare say that they even gave their names when they commented- how unmodern of them! But just to put the matter into some kind of perspective, the body is 60% water and 2/3's of that water is inside the cells of the body while only 1/3 is outside the cells. So a 200 pound person consists of 120 pounds of water, 80 pounds (or about 10 gallons- water weighs 8.3 pounds per gallon) are inside all the ten trillion cells of the body, leaving only 40 pounds (or about 5 gallons) to be spread around in the lymph system and the circulatory system. The lymph system is twice the size of the circulatory system, leaving only 13 pounds of water in the circulatory system. In that 13 pounds of water all the red blood cells swim around and inside them all the hemoglobin molecules swim around. Fact is that I'm not talking about hemoglobin at all, I'm talking about oxygenated water that one drinks. It bypasses the entire circulatory system and goes right into the lymph system (or about 2/3's of it does) and so one sixteen ounce glass of it can increase the oxygen partial pressure in the entire body, not just the 13 pounds of water in the plasma, by 20%. That's just a simple calculation of 1 pound of water at 75ppm oxygen added to 120 pounds at 3 ppm. Obviously some of it gets used up by the teeth, gums, tongue, etc. on it's way to the small intestine, and gets used up by the freindly bacteria (the aerobic kind) in the intestinal tract, but it appears that most of it gets into the 60% of the body that is water, one way or another. The equine and human tests mentioned in posts above attest to that. Hey, if you want to do some double blind, placebo controled, cross-over tests with oxygenated water, you're free to do so. You can even post it here for peer review. Hey, maybe you can get your uncle stickey, or your grandfather gooooey, or aunt snotty, to fund your research. You might even make money at it, but don't count on it. There's no serious money to be made in water, expecially with a guy like me around to tell everybody how to make it themselves! Fortunately I know what Jesus said about those who would not believe what he said even if he rose from the dead to prove it. But, they will, just give it a little time!

I apologize for thinking that Otto Warburg received the Nobel Prize in the 1950's. As can be seen above, it was 1931. The "respratory ferment" in a cell, that Warburg was talking about, that contained iron, was later called myoglobin, the first protein to have it's structure worked out- for which the Nobel Prize was given in the 50's. The structure for some 30,000 proteins has now been determined and I dare say that each and every one of them can be found somewhere on the internet! Also, one could spend a lifetime on the internet by starting with "Otto Warburg" in a search engine box and going from there. He evidently was offered a second Nobel Prize during the 40's but was not allowed to accept it by Hitler. He was one Jew however that enjoyed Hitler's protection and the Jewish lobby would do well to point that out (though, of course, they won't because it would weaken the stranglehold that holocaust and it's revenue stream has on the world.) Anyway, to be linked from the time of Mayow (1670) to 1931, with only one name inbetween (Lavoisier) is a rare find in any field of science. And oxygen hadn't even been discovered at the time of Mayow! They knew something was going on, but didn't know what. What I chuckled about when reading the above is that the field of medicine did not even have it's own category for a Nobel Prize as of 1931. Warburg was first a physiologist (PhD in chemistry) and afterwards an MD. He was a researcher, not a quack physician that poisons you with pills and takes your money. And, interestingly enough, his hobby was equine sports! From the few articles I did read about him on the internet, it appears that in the 60's he and an associate were about to publish a work that could have obliterated cancer as a cause for concern. But some nefarious persons or group of people prevented that from happening. For example, he evidently knew of a simple "antidote" for excessive smoking that eliminated the need to quit. It eveidently had something to do with the vitamin nicotinic acid. Oh my, the Trial Lawyers of America would have hated that one since they now get something like half the money of each pack of cigarettes sold in America. I'm getting an even worse taste in my mouth for doctors and lawyers than I had- and it was plenty bad to begin with! Anyway, in deference to Krys, please note that the combustion reaction mentioned in the quote above is the basic reaction in the cell, glucose + oxygen yields CO2 + H2O + energy. The usable enegry produced from the reaction goes to making ATP, which is the "energy carrier" for all the other reactions that Krys is talking about. The rest of the energy goes to such things as heating the body or away from the body vial the lungs and skin. This all happens when a glucose molecule and an oxygen molecule arrive at the mitochondria, the "power plant" of the cell. When the cell runs out of oxygen, energy is still produced, but only a net of 1 ATP is produced in the anaerobic process for each 18 ATP produced in the aerobic one. And so the trick is to get enough oxygen into the cell so it doesn't run out- or runs out after everyone else in the race has run out first! Once the anaerobic threshold has been reached damage begins to be done- which is why exercise physiologists advise to push the limit but not go over it (ie. don't exercise longer than your aerobic threshold allows you to, or, in other words, don't reach exhaustion.) For those particular muscle groups that are being exercised, one then doesn't push the max again until three days later- to allow the body to heal and supercompensate for the damage done during the exercise. This is particularly noticable in weight lifting exercies like bench presses. One starts at a comfortable weight that allows him or her to do three sets of ten reps, with perhaps five minutes inbetween sets. The next two days one does something else and the third day (assuming he or she got the three sets of 10 reps in the previous time) 5# more of weight is added. Like clock work one can add 5# about once a week. Try to build up strength to fast and something pops and you're out of business for a month while major repair goes on. It's been a lot of years since I did weight lifting exercise, but my guess is that if one's water intake is all water oxygenated to 75 ppm oxygen, the repair, building, and supercompensation proces will probably take only two days instead of three. I wouldn't bet on that at this point, but would bet that it is shorter, even if only half a day or a quarter of a day. You can read lots of comments about the body not being able to store oxygen, but they are wrong. In the first place, hemoglobin normally only dumps off one of it's four oxygen molecules on it's way around the circuit. The other three are reserve capacity. Storage. Then there is myoglobin in the skeletal muscles and heart muscle that store oxygen for a rainly day- provided the oxygen pressure is high enough in the lymph surrounding each cell. How much storage is there remains to be seen. My guess is that it will hold more than hemoglobin holds for a rainy day. It is a well known fact that in the process of becoming fit, not only does the body lay down additional capillary structures, it also builds more myoglobin. But like an arm in a cast, muscles will atrophy when not used and no oxygen gets to them. Myoglobin will do the same as will the capillary bed. Thanks to Otto Warburg we know the central role of oxygen in each cell- or we probably would still be in the dark ages regarding the subject. NO doubt lots of doctors are still in the dark ages.

Last summer MSN's web page ran a story on some medical research published in the December, 2003 issue of the Journal of Clinical Endrocrinology and Metabolism. It was a story on how to lose five pounds of weight in a year's time simply by drinking an additional 500ml (about 16 oz.) of water a day. The perfectly simple solution for all those weight watchers, diet consumers, pill poppers, home exercizer folks, etc.- just drink an extra large glass of water a day! It caught my attention because it dealt with water- my favorite subject these days. Unfortunately, the medical journal wanted money before they would let me read the actual research paper (how common of them!) and so I sent an email to the researchers in Germany and they graciously sent me the full text of the research. Seems seven men and seven women heroically volunteered for such a risky experiment! I mean, drinking an extra glass of water each day must take herculean effort! Anyway, I went through the paper looking for what water they used, distilled, tap, well, oxygenated, unoxygenated, whatever. To my amazement the water they used was not defined! Imagine that, an article intitled "Water Induced Thermogenesis" and they didn't even define what water they used in the tests! But their conclusion was striking, namely that "The effect of water on energy expenditure and fuel utilization is a powerful CONFOUNDING (emphasis mine) factor in metabolic studies" And so, with seven men and seven women volunteers, some instrumentation, and an undefined source of water, these researchers managed to show that all previous research in metabolics was darn near worthless because they didn't factor in the amount of water consumed! A hundred years of research down the drain because everybody forgot to consider what water does to the generation of energy. Hell, any steam power plant engineer could have told them a hundred years ago that running a boiler without water was sure to destroy the boiler. Anyway, after reading and rereading the paper I replied to the authors that if they think mere water is a confounding influence in metabolic studies, they aught to consider the amount of oxygen in water and see how much it confounds metabolic studies! They replied that they would look into the matter. I hope they do, but am not optimisitic. If it took the medical profession a hundred years just to realize that water helps metabolism, it will probably take a thousand years before they ever get around to funding research into the effect that oxygen in the water has on metabolism. But at least they got as far as showing that heating the water to body temperature only accounts for 40% of the energy produced by the body in drinking 500ml of water. Along these lines, one of my notes from research others have done on race horses says that dehydration of just 3% results in a loss of 10% contractile strength and an 8% loss of speed in a distance race. So just neglecting a horses water bucket can lose lots of races for a sloppy trainer, or an overworked trainer who is too cheep to hire any help (they want the $50 a day they get to train a horse all to stay in their pocket if possible), or a greedy trainer that has far too many horses than he or she can adequately train. And that's before they even take the time to read a thread like this one to get some idea that oxygen added to the water might change them from losers to winners and make their horses happy campers in the process. Ah, common sense ain't so common any more it seems!