David Anderson

Hey Raf, even judges cite laws and facts when issuing an opinion on things. But then maybe you're not an "investagative" reporter. So, lets see, who should I believe, you or the over 5,000 stores that carry Penta Water, complete with customers that buy it regularly? Perhaps you just delight in accusing all those customers of being stupid for wasting their money on "bunk". But then we have olympic gold medalists that use it and so obviously you must think you know so much more about proper hydration, proper oxygenation, etc. than they do. Or maybe you want to take on a New York Times best selling author on fitness and diet, who recommends it. But if so you'll have to do quite a bit better than a mere "it's bunk" line. But at least I figured you'd understand why someone would be interested in how many people read what they write- or do you go out of your way to get your stuff published by newspapers that have no circulation? In case you missed it, this thread was not started to promote Penta Water but to get people to make their own oxygenated water- which would about double the oxygen concentration, if done right, than any that are available in stores. Penta Water doesn't even focus their ad campaign on the oxygen concentration in their water, and yet it is far and away higher than the other popular brands. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that it's the oxygen in the water than makes it work so well. It also takes no rocket scientist to read this thread and evaluate who is at least attempting to be helpful and who just wants to hear themselves talk. I've recommended it for numerous people to read that have no interesst whatsoever in twi but are interested in the subject of oxygen in water. I caution them that they'll have to suffer through comments that have no content in the process, and some even that are downright hateful, but scrolling down to the next comment isn't all that difficult, I add. So remember, laws and facts are the stuff that make opinions count, not traveling in the gutter of pretensions to expert status, ie., "it's bunk because I say it's bunk". By the way, did you ever start a thread on a serious subject, one that actually took some consideration to discuss and some time to investigate, and then carry it through- to perhaps 400+ posts and 6,000+ viewers?. If so, I'd be interested in reading it- but I'm not talking about threads like the "THE" thread, or other spitball throwing contests third graders typically engage in. I'm talking about threads that actually demonstrate one's ability to compare, contrast, weigh, evaluate, measure, etc., so as to be able to actually be informative with one's opinion- something that is suposed to be a measure of one's education, rigorous or random as the case might be. Nonsense is the domain of fools.

Raf, does this mean that you agree with Steve that the counters are unreliable? Or is it merely the old "answer a question with a question" routine- Way Corps 101. Seems to me that your opinion of this thread is isn't shared by at least some of the 400 viewers that accessed the thread in the days following Easter- dispite the nonresponsive drivel cluttering up the space since I asked the question about who they might be last week- which drivel hasn't generated half the views in the past five days as occurred the five days following Easter. So, wrong answer again Raf.

Thanks Steve. I'll add that to my list of possibilities. Let's see, Oakspear likes to be entertained, Belle likes to read what Oakspear wrote, and Raf likes to read what Bell writes. Hmmm, could this have something to do with the number of viewers of this thread in the five days following Easter? Maybe each one of them told all their friends they would have something profound to say here in the five days following Easter and sucked them all into taking a look if perchance they did- only to be disapointed. Possible, but more likely is that they lack social skills or never heard that it's very unlikely to arrive at a correct answer if one can't even get the question right. Seems to me they thought the question was really stupid and just had to let everyone know what they thought of it. So here's another one that they may think equally stupid. What common chemical can one add to gasoline, in the amount of about 2 ounces per 10 gallons, that could increase your gas milage by 20-40%? Same small amount, same large potential benifit as adding oxygen to water and drinking it- only it has to do with merely saving you money rather than positively impacting your health.

Question: Can anybody give a reasonable explaination for the fact that 364 views of this thread occurred the last five days of last month when only 800 views happened all month- and only 163 have happened the first half of this month? Seems an obvious abnormality to me. When I started this thread back on Dec.4, I had no idea how much interest, if any, there would be on the subject of oxygen content in drinking water. So I was pleasantly surprised to find that 1,400 views had occurred in the first month of it's existance. And for the month of January there were 2,500 views. By the end of February it seemed that the subject had run it's course as the number of views had dropped back to 1,400. March seemed to have confirmed that trend as only about 400 views had happened in March as of Easter Sunday, March 27. When I next looked on March 31, that number had almost doubled. And so, being a devotee of cause and effect rather than statistical happenstance explained only by probability theory (and if that doesn't give the results desired, add a few billion or trillion years to make it fit- after all, anything can happen given enough time, provided that one accepts the thesis that infinity times infinity does not equal infinity squared- a tough concept to explain) I can't help but think there is a reason for this sudden apparent interest, followed by the major trend continuing again. About all I could come up with is: 1. somebody jimmied the numbers 2. the KGB, FBI, NSA, CIA, Homeland Security, etc. folks wanted to take a closer look at a perceived threat to national security. 3. The AMA figured this might not be a fad that would go away any time soon and figured they needed to take a closer look. 4. Some college professor gave an assignment to his classes to read the thread (what a brutal assignment that was if it happened!). 5. An earthquate happened in New knoxville and a big hand came down out of the sky and a voice said "READ THIS THREAD". 6. Somehow the key words in the thread got moved to the top of the list of Google. 7. Dandi Randy is thinking about giving me a million dollars and mentioned it to his board. Hopefully somebody will have the real answer to the question. Here's to hope! Dave

And more on plastic bottles. For those interested in mathmatics and the physics of gas transport through polymers, www.diffusion-polymers.com has a forum on the subject and tables listing permeability of CO2, O2 and N2 gasses through various plastics. Looks like the least permeable plastic is PET (polyethylene terephthalate)- the kind of plastic bottle generally used by bottled water folks and soft drink folks alike. Looks like the permeability of CO2 is almost twice that of O2 and the permeability of N2 is only 2/3 that of O2. And so the nitrogen from the air has less chance of getting into the bottle from the atmospnere than oxygen does excaping from the water inside the bottle to the atmosphere. In any event, the summary of results in a paper titled "Diffusion of CO2 in Cola through a PET bottle" will give some idea of how much or how little escapes over time. 1. 8 hours after the bottle is filled with cola the first CO2 molecules diffuse through the PET bottle. 2. 24 hours after the bottle is filled with cola the stationary permeation state is reached of 0.02 grams per square meter per hour. 3. 10 months after the bottle is filled with cola half of the CO2 is gone and after 20 months all CO2 is diffused through the PET. The numbers and times for oxygen transfer through PET will, of course, be different since the amount of CO2 that water can hold at atmospheric pressure is almost twenty times as much as the amount of O2 that it can hold. But one does get some idea that we're not talking about minutes or days for serious loss of quality to occur- given that the container is kept closed and storage is at room temperature. But no question about it, the best situation is to make your own, keep it refrigerated, and drink it within a week or so of making it. The Terri Schiavo case, made public four months after this thread started, is as eloquent a summary of what I've been trying to get at as any. It took 13 days from the time they removed the feeding tube until she died from dehydration. And that is probably twice as long as it would take any of us to meet the same fate without any water to drink, since she was almost totally immobile and therefore the energy demands of her body were far less than a normal persons. I also couldn't help but notice how confused all the commentators on TV were over weither it was dehydration or starvation that was the cause of death. I guess they never read about Jesus, or John the Baptist, or Moses, fasting for forty days without a problem. Of the Big Three required to live, oxygen, water and food, food is the least of our problems- but is the very thing we spend virtually all our attention on. And yet lack of water will do us in long before a lack of food will. And a lack of oxygen will do us in long before a lack of water will. I'm told the old prospectors use to take three burros with them when they went out on the desert looking for gold. The prospector rotated their water ration so that one burro would have no water for two days, one would have no water for one day and the third would be given water. If his planned water holes were dried up he'd let the burro go that had no water for two days as he would surely find water if it was within a days journey. He just followed him and if they found him dead, he'd let the next burro go, who by this time was without water two days. If they found him dead, he'd let the final burro go and if he found him dead he knew he was next. In the event he lived, he'd probably have a big bulbous nose, a sure sign that he'd been without water for to long. Most of us never get into such drastic situations. But imagine the effects of just being 1% short on the amount of water you need in a days time. In fairly short order you will be chronically dehydrated, complete with a loss of strength, an attitude that has headed south, and sickness and disease not very far away at all, just like a stagnant pond instead of a mountain stream. If you've never tried drinking a cold glass of oxygen saturated water, do so. I think you'll find that you never tasted anything so good, so refreshing, so energizing. And if you make a habit of doing so, you might just be amazed at what you experience after weeks or months of doing so. Oxygen saturated water- to your health! Here's looking at ya, mud in your eye, or whatever (don't know where that second toast comes from).

Hey Oldiesman. Good idea. I'll get a couple of bottles of Penta Water from the store and we'll test all three. No knowing when each bottle was packaged but it's a reasonable assumption that the one you've had lying around for months is that much older than the stuff in the store. I did get a chance to do my little experiment, which while not very carefully done, did indicate that oxygen does go thru plastic at four atmospheres difference in pressure (went from about 11 ppm to 22 ppm in two days- assuming the cap did not leak- a big assumption). I'll need to do a few more samples to make sure it wasn't an aberration. Speaking of aberrations, the thought occurred to me that "The Amazing Randi's" million dollar challenge could quite possibly be the same million dollars left by a woman who died and left a million dollars to anyone who could prove the existence of life after death back in the late sixties. I know about that million dollar "challenge" because long about that time I had a guy in a PFAL class in South Bend, Indiana who was a spiritist minister who was seriously persuing the matter and had imported a high speed camera from England so he could photograph ectoplasm. Seems laughable these days to think about a high speed camera built around 1968, but that's a fact. Don't know if he ever was successful because I kicked him out of the class after the first week. As far as I know, he's the only guy I ever kicked out of a PFAL class, but rest assured, it was a unique experience. I'd noticed from the green card his occupation when he registered and since I'd only done maybe a half dozen classes by that time, I pointed the fact out to VPW after the first day of the class and asked him if I should give the guy the hook before the class even started. His reply, and subsequent interest, is perhaps a side of him not generally known. Basically he said that he had no insight (revelation?) into the matter but advised me to watch him like a hawk. So as the class fairly started I did so. And over the first week I noticed that whenever there was a logical position being discussed he was all ears, but when anything was being discussed that touched on the "The Good News", he was out like a light. I also noticed that although the class was being held in a former graduate's home, there was a certain bondage over the class- for unlike the others I'd done, the convesation before class, during intermission, and after the class, was muted rather than animated as it usually was. So finally I decided to give a little quiz at the end of the first week- ten fill-in-the-blank questions, like "Jesus said, I am come that they might have life and that they might have it more __________." I never counted, but my guess is that John 10:10 had to have been repeated at least a hundred times during the first week of the class, so that anybody sitting through 20 hours of lecture on the subject surely couldn't miss getting that question right. To my amazement, "Mr. Ectoplasm" couldn't answer even that simple question, nor the other nine. So I went up to him and confronted him with that fact and said specifically that if I saw him go to sleep again I was going to dismiss him from the class. It wasn't ten minutes later that he was out like a light again and so I got his $20 check out of the cash box, handed it to him and asked him to leave. He gave me some comments like those sometimes found on this thread, about it being a free country and he wasn't leaving, etc. and I replied that while it was a free country this wasn't a "free" class and he wasn't running it, I was. The rest of the folks there were as quiet as a church mouse and although I wanted to smack the guy and bodily throw him out, the thought came to mind that I could say, "In the Name of Jesus Christ, get out of here." That seemed a more prudent way to proceed and to my amazement he didn't say another word but immediately got up and hit the door. As he was half out the door he mumbled something about not blaming him if something happened to me on the drive back to New knoxville and then he was gone. Come to think about it, he'd even offered earlier in the week to bring in his high speed camera to show everybody. I nixed that idea. Anyway, driving back to New Knoxville I got real tired and thought to get a motel room somewhere and sleep off the previous days exertions. But, alas, there was no room in the inn- not even a manger for this babe in the woods. Must have been four in the morning when I limped into headquarters and to my amazement VPW was sitting on the porch steps smoking a cigarette. He asked me what had happened, I told him, he said "good", flipped his cigarette onto the lawn and said, "I'm going to bed." Maybe every negative ever reported about him is true, but I don't think he faked his sincerity that day. It is a side of him not often reported. Come to think about it, if I'd have required perfection from everyone I'd ever associated myself with over 61 years, why I'd have to disavow every teacher I've ever had- not to mention mere fellow travelers on planet earth who's path I've come across. It was good advice, in my opinion, not to throw out the baby with the bathwater, something I've kept in mind all these years. Sure wish I had that Green Card from 1968. Who knows, it might even had read "The Amazing Randi"! By the way, I still live in Novelty, Ohio. If you have a Global Positioning Device, I can probably even get the exact coordinates from my neighbor John. The last two days have been great around here.

To solve the objections to the use of plastic bottles, I've been looking for glass bottles and came across a site worth noting- It's an interview with a Professional Engineer who also is a professor in chemistry, and addresses the hoax on the internet of the evils of plastic bottles.Actually, the reason it caught my attention was his comment that folks should not be afraid of drinking bottled water (or municipal water for that matter) as they are much more likely to suffer health problems from lack of proper hydration than they are from any "baddies" in water. Sort of puts the question of what water to drink in perspective- the first thing is to drink pleanty of water, then comes the question of what water to drink. Evidently the Schivo gal is going to die from dehydration, not starvation- a process that would take months, not days. He also says that there is much more danger from microbes in the water than from what might go into solution from the container- and I'm confident he's talking about anaerobic microbes, not aerobic ones (the friendly ones found in the digestive tract). Highly oxygenated water is death on the former but not the latter. Anyway, that saves me from having to find glass bottles at a reasonable price. About the only thing left is to prove or disprove the matter of oxygen leaking out through plastic bottles- which probably also is a non issue. So to prove the matter, I'll put a plastic bottle filled with freshly distilled water (that has no oxygen in it) into a corny keg and pressureize it to 60 psi with oxygen and leave it for a day or two and then take it out and measure the oxygen concentration in the bottle. If it hasn't changed, then I'm confident that under atmospheric conditions no oxygen originally in water leaks out of a plastic bottle. But I guess I'll have to do that after the maple sap stops running. I'll be sure to let everyone know the result.

Hello War. Would you be out of Man O'War or maybe War Emblem? In case you hadn't noticed, my comments on this thread, lenghty as they are, are more in the realm of science, experience, and fact, than they are in the realm of the paranormal, pseudoscientific and the supernatural- the realm that the James Randi Educational Foundation claims to be dealing with- although he takes on the owners of Penta Water, who, as far as I can see, have made no paranormal, pseudoscientific or supernatural claims whatsoever. Fact is that the millon dollar challenge of that foundation is purportedly for someone to "prove" the paranormal if successful- something I have no interest in whatsoever. Even the advertisement on that site, of "proving" anything with statistical correlations based on double blind studies, is ludicrous. The laws of chemistry and physics do not depend on statistical correlations, and certainly not on the paranormal. What I've tried to show here is that adding oxygen to water and drinking it, not a paranormal thing, is good for one's health. I suppose one could say that good health itself is a paranormal thing, and to a certain extent I'd have no argument with that view- ie., "a merry heart works like a medicine", or "it's not that which goes into the mouth that defiles a man but that which comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man.". But I prefer to look at good health like a plant in the ground. It can grow even among rocks, but one can help it along, and maybe even increase it's yield, by pulling weeds and watering it, maybe even breaking up the ground a little so it can breathe better. Those that want to reduce the matter to the paranormal are merely blowing smoke, like most horse trainers do. They tell the owner they are training their horse (and charge them $50 a day to do so), and then keep them in a stall for 23 hours a day, solitary confinement if you will, a sure way to detrain them, cause muscles to atrophy and attitudes to head south. Reminds me of the line, "While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption." Fortunately not all are servants of corruption or we'd all be dead! So thanks for your concern about my retirement account. If the Amazing Randi reads this thread and decides to give me a million dollars, why I won't turn it down. But I won't hold my breath in the mean time.

Hello Chuck. As long as the temperarure continues to drop below freezing at night and goes above freezing during the day, the sap will run. So Lord knows how much time is left to the season. Looks like it's good thru the weekend and probably into next week anyway. The problem is that once the trees start to bud, the sap starts tasting bitter and so about the only folks that buy the buddy syrup are the chewing tobacco folks, and, of course, they don't pay $40 a gallon for it! I bought my taps from Richard's Maple Syrup on Rt. 6 going into Chardon. They cost 40 cents each. So I tapped four trees, (drill a hole about 3 inches into the tree- about to the middle joint of the finger- at a slight angle upward and wedge the plastic tap in with a hammer until it's good and snug- but not tight enough to crack the tree), with a total of 11 taps (trees over 79 inch circumfrence can take 3 taps and those between 70 and 79 can take two taps) and they are keeping my two water distiller's busy around the clock. Hopefully you have a maple syrup store closer than Chardon, on your side of town. Anyway, it takes boiling about 30-40 gallons of sap to make one gallon of syrup. By day's end I should have my second gallon of "The Lord's Best Maple Product" done. I'm taking orders for it now should you not get around to doing it yourself. (but I won't deliver it for the $40 price- and you'll have to hurry since I'm amazed that I'm even getting two gallons- let alone maybe four or five ultimately). Sure hope you bought the water distiller last week when they were on sale. It sure makes "mass production" (on a very small scale) easy. It's really no different than a pan on a hot plate except that no steam gets into the room to ruin everything, and it turns off automatically when all the water is boiled out and only syrup remains. And if you're not around five hours after having pushed the button to start the process it just sits and smiles while it waits for a refil- and being relieved of what little syrup there is- to be emptied into a safe deposit box or something, like it was gold. (Since I seldom sleep more than five hours at a crack, it works out perfect for me.) Try that with a pan on a hot plate and about all you have left is some carbon on the bottom of the pan- if there is any pan left! And, of course, there is something to "a watched pot never boils"- at least it seems that way when one has to watch thirty gallons of water evaporate just to get one gallon of syrup. And you thought refinishing furnature was tough! Actually, I am available, for a fee, as a Maple Syrup Consultant. Not that I'm an expert, you understand. It's just that I'd like to show that gaining knowledge is profitable (something that is a new concept to me, old wayfer that I am!) So I made all my mistakes a couple of years ago learning how to tap maple trees, how many taps per tree, how to boil the sap, and how to figure out when it's done. I even spent $15 on a hydrometer (which was probably $14 more than it was worth- except that everything is that way these days!) So, what with the extra corny kegs I have to catch the sap, (one of which I'd offered to give to Krysilis months ago- except that her email was taken off the hook and my email to her was returned to sender), plastic tubing to run from the tap to the keg, quick disconnects to easily change the corny kegs, water distiller to pour it into, etc., even an oxygen meter to measure the oxygen concentration of the sap (you heard it here first that maple sap has 30 ppm oxygen- maybe nobody in the world knows that fact outside of those reading this thread- and no doubt most think it's worthless information- just like they think the Bible is worthless information- but that's there problem, not mine). That reminds me of another story, told to me back in the sixties by my boss at the time, who was the expert in boiler plants between New York and Chicago. Seems he was called to look at a boiler plant that had mysteriously shut down and no one knew why. So he took a little hammer with him, drove out to the plant, pinged on this pipe and that, climbed up on a catwalk and did the same to yet more pipes, and finally gave one a big wack and then told the folks to start up the boilers again. Sure enough, everything ran like a champ. So they asked him how much they owed him and he said $1,000. They objected, pointing out that all he'd done is hit a pipe with a hammer. He replied, "Well, hitting the pipe with the hammer only cost you $5, knowing where to hit the pipe cost you $995." As for the chickens, I threaten them regularly with chicken dinner if they don't behave! They don't listen, and I doubt they even know that I'm talking about chicken dinner for me, not them! Reminds me of a guy at a card game years ago that said, "If you don't know who the target is at the table, you're the target!" I think he was trying to tell me something- like I try to tell the chickens about chicken dinner. Anyway, no flap jacks for them. They might get a little sap, just to see if they like it. But then they'll complain that they don't get sap every day- for free- so I dare not make a habit of doing so. They won't understand that the sap does stop runing sooner or later. By the way, did you ever start making oxygenated water for yourself and family? That actually takes less effort to set up than it does to make maple syrup- and the cost to do so isn't much more. I do think I'll go down to Sears today and see if I can get some filters for my Kenmores. Since Oldiesman mentioned it, I've been thinking that the carbon filter may take out the trace organics in the distillate from the maple sap. I sure have hated pouring all that distilled water down the drain just because of a trace of bitter taste! Best wishes, Dave

Oldiesman, I can't rightly tell you how many gallons but in the winter I use it 24/7 so lets say 90 days at 4 gallons a day and then double that for the rest of the year- so maybe a thousand gallons all told. But it wasn't a filter, it was the gasket around the top of the boiling pot lid. It wasn't worn out, just broke where it was originally glued together- probably a defective gluing job. I tried using super glues but they only held it back together when it was cold and immediatley broke again with the first batch that was heated. So I'm hoping the new one lasts forever. I've boiled about ten gallons of maple sap so far and have about a third of a gallon of syrup. Interestingly enough, the sap measured 30 ppm oxygen when I first brought it into the shop. The first five gallons of distilate I saturated with oxygen after cooling and sure enough, there was a trace amount of white stuff on top after the excess oxygen escaped. The oxygen saturated water had a bit of a taste to it, on the bitter side, so that's probably the enzyme that carries over with the water as it's boiled and then condensed. Suposedly it's good for the immune system but no doubt it won't keep long without refrigeration. I read on some Canadian official web site a few years ago that maple syrup had an enzyme in it that inhanced immune system function and therefore was going to try giving some sap to horses without boiling it at all. It sure is sweet. Now that I know it's 30 ppm oxygen, I'm wondering whether it's an enzyme left in the syrup or just the higher level of oxygen in the sap that inhances immune system function. And now that I have two distillers, it looks like the horses will have to wait for the sap experiment. Maybe I'll part with a little of it to give the chickens and see what they think of it. And i'll see if they turn up their noses at the taste of the oxygenated distillate. So when are you going to start making Hi-O-Oldie water? Looking forward to seeing you but I must warn you that I've wanted to get back out west for the past fifteen years and this may be the year I finally reach escape velocity. No hard and fast plans yet, but with spring comes the wanderlust! Best wishes, Dave

Thanks Oldiesman. You're right. The model I have is the 625.344800 not the 625.344810. The 810 model is a little larger and has a clock on it but in my opinion is not worth the extra $30 or so at retail (and I don't think it's on sale). I also see that the sale ends this saturday, March 19, and not next week like I was told at the store. Thanks again. Dave

Hey Oldiesman. I went down to Sears yesterday to get a new gasket for my Kenmore Model No. 625-344810 Water Purifier (distiller) and found that they are currently on sale for $99. I bought mine a year or so ago for $139. The gal said it is a national sale and runs until next week sometime. You can see a picture and discription of it at www.KenmoreWater.com in case you're interested. Anyway, it was such a good deal I not only got my gasket, I bought another unit and have now doubled my water making capacity from 4 gallons a day to 8 gallons a day. Around here distilled water costs about $1.00 a gallon and the electric cost to run the Kenmore unit is about 20 cents a gallon. So one only needs to make about 125 gallons for the thing to pay for itself (in the horse handicapping world they call it ROI- return on investment)- not to mention lugging all that water from the store! So Maple syrup season is upon us here (the trees start pumping the sap when the temperature goes above freezing during the day and freezes at night- like the weatherman says is going to happen here for at least the next five days) and today I'll tap some trees and make some oxygenated Maple sap. From numerous sources it appears that Maple Syrup has something in it that inhances the immune system. So I figure that if I never boil off the 97-99% water in the sap but rather keep it cold directly from the tree, the really good stuff won't get damaged by the heat of boiling. No doubt some will say that this is not AMA approved and I'll kill myself if I drink it. We'll see! And I'll be interested in finding how much oxygen is in the sap to begin with- if any. Don't know if adding oxygen will destroy the good stuff but I rather think it won't- which is one of the reasons we put stuff in the refrigerator to begin with. Actually, after buying the distiller yesterday I drove out to Chardon as I began thinking that I could get lots of distilled water for the taking as everyone around here that makes Maple Syrup boils off a lot of water! The place that sells the evaporators in this area is in Chardon and he was quite helpful in giving me the names and locations of all the sugar shacks around. He's not making any syrup this year since he sold his last evaporator and didn't order the new models since the price of nickel has trippled in the last year. He's hoping the price comes back down or he'll be out of business- except for selling his sap to all the folks he's sold evaporators to. Ah, the contortions the mind goes through! I buy a water distiller because it's an exceptional deal, so I can make my own maple syrup and get distilled water at the same time and by days end I have all the distilled water I want before even using my distiller- and, worse yet, if oxygenating the sap works, I won't even need to make any syrup! Actually, the guy's wife in Chardon said she use to take some distilled water home for her own use and then told of a farmer who decided to just bottle it and sell it. Turned out that although it was distilled, it formed a white curdlike substance on top over time that turned out to be some enzyme- and so the price went up and he changed the name from distilled water to Joe's (or somebody's) Magic Elexor. Ah AMA, eat your heart out! So when are you going to get on your pony and ride out this way? The sugar season is dead if the temperature goes above freezing and just keeps going. All the sugar shacks hope it freezes every night from now til June! P.S. Pure Maple Syrup costs $40 a gallon around here. Sort of puts HiOSilver's $30 a gallon water in perspective- but the maple folks won't ship it for free! A nice big Maple tree will yield 5 gallons of sap on a good day and so I figure four of them should get 100 gallons in a good year. using my Kenmore to make the syrup should yield three gallons of syrup, which would pay for the unit in less than a month. There are advantages to doing things one's self! As a political friend once said, we just need to undertech the bastards! And here I had maple trees all around me all my life and never saw one being tapped until I looked it up on the internet a few years ago and found out how to do it myself. It's as simple as drilling a small hole about two-three inches into the tree on a slight incline about three feet off the ground, tapping a spout into the hole and collecting it in a bucket (I'll use my corny kegs to keep all the varmits around from drinking it all!). Just part of the glory of the Lord in the face of Jesus Christ.

Hey Oldiesman. Sorry it has taken me so long to address your last post but I've looked up the HiOSilver site and even read their patent. Looks like the thrust of their ad campaign is to show that Penta Water is worthless and their's is much better- even going so far as to get a patent so that Penta Water's claim to having the world's only patented water is voided. So I looked up the patent and I'm amazed they even received a patent. It talks about anearobic bacteria causing halitosis and how their water kills these bacteria in the back of the tongue. So, all you folks with halitosis, don't drink oxygenated water or you might be guilty of infringing on HiOSilver's patent! (of course you could always say you didn't have halitosis or didn't know that oxygenated water got rid of it.) Then there was a comparison on their site of the pH and oxygen content of their water compared to "Penta Hydrate Super Pro" water and "O2Go water", stating that "Penta Hydrate Super Pro" is only 19 ppm oxygen. So I got out the bottle of Penta Water I used to test oxygen concentration (that read 40 ppm) and looked at the label. It's not called "Penta Hydrate Super Pro" so I figure they're referring to someone other than the company, Bio-Hydration Research Lab, Inc., even while appearing to do so. (and we won't go to O2Go water, since it was reported to have only 15 ppm oxygen- assuming the company exists at all.) I even found on their site the name of an expert they use to debunk Penta Water- none other than The Amazing Randi, and his million dollar prize. They don't mention he's a magician! But the main thing that caught my attention was the pH of HiOSilver's water- 8.4, while the other two were 7.0. But in the patent they also mention ozone and so I'm unclear whether they use molecular oxygen or ozone in making their product. Anyway, not to worry, they'll ship you their product by UPS at no charge (if you live in the USA) for shipping. It only costs about $30 a gallon! Why they'll even throw in a free tee shirt! But here's a way to test oxygen content for yourself. A dissolved oxygen meter costs upwards of $700 the last time I looked, but you can make your own for about $130- the cost of the probe. I got mine from Sensorex Corporation, who evidently makes most of the probes for the d.o. meter industry around the world. The meter people then add electronics to the reader so it digitally comes out in whatever units you want. I use a made-in-china millivolt meter that costs $3 from Harbor Freight. Once you've put the two together and calibrate it by using two known data points (one can be distilled water kept from air after distilling so it has zero dissolved oxygen), make a little straight lined graph and then any millivolt reading of your meter can easily be converted to ppm- and all for a cost of about $133. But about pH, I've read that the body operates in a very narrow range of 6.9 to 7.6 and outside those limits is life threatening. Obviously that doesn't include the stomach pH after meals. It wasn't all that many years ago that I read that it was still a mystery as to why the concentrated acid in the stomach didn't chew away the stomach wall and kill everyone who ever ate anything. Ah, another of God's little secrets! Anyway, I wouldn't touch HiOSilver's 8.4 pH water for love nor money. But then I seldom even eat a Tum or Rolaid for indigestion. On a different subject, a fellow who read my book a number of years ago sent me a tape called "Dead Doctor's Don't Lie", by Dr. Joel Wallach. I thought it was very informative, dealing with the 90 essential neutrients the body needs- 60 of which are minerals. To drive his point home about medical doctors having no experience or education in the subject, he pointed out that the average lifespan of a medical doctor was 58-70 years (depending on who's numbers one used) verses the average lifespan of people in general in this country of 75.5 years. Imagine that, average folks know how to live longer than medical doctors do! Who'd have thunk it? (even though we only are 17th in longevity in the world- dispite all the scalpel and pill professors around, and their hoard of followers.) Anyway, I'd long since lost track of the tape- like so much of my stuff, it get's loaned out and never quite gets back to me. So I'd forgotten his name and looked it up from the title of his tape. Seems it was taken from a speach he gave in 1993 and has been sold, or given away, by the millions since then by everyone under the sun. A veritable VPW, except with a 90 minute tape instead of a 36 hour one! And he was only talking about food, not water, not oxygen. And so I'm back to where I started this thread, the body needs 3 pounds of food a day, three pounds of water and 6 pounds of oxygen. There is no end to the stuff available about food. But even though it is apparent from this thread that there is more interest than previously in the other two- especially combined together, it's still a fact that the average person can do without food for much longer than either water or oxygen. And my bet is that the vast majority of folks don't even know that only about one fifth of the air they breathe is oxygen. Soooo simple, but so profound.

Hello Allen. I found the place you referred to on the above site but not the article. Only one small correction- the use of "super oxygenated blood". I would use the term "well oxygenated" rather than super oxygenated because anything that is "super saturated" (as in making oxygenated water under pressure) will gass off the excess oxygen when the pressure is releived, and if supersaturated enough will look milky as the excess oxygen comes off. Once the water clears you may be sure that it is saturated- which is why I initially made oxygen saturated water that way (I had no dissolved oxygen meter nor the lab setup to do a Winkler titration). If the water is close to freezing temperature, the saturation point will be about 75 ppm, although while under pressure it might be four or five times higher than that, depending on the pressure- the excess oxygen gassing off within a minute or so after the pressure vessel is tapped into a glass or bottle. Anyway, gas bubbles of any kind in the blood stream are bad news. As mentioned earlier on this thread, the bends in deep sea divers is caused by nitrogen bubbles forming in the blood stream if they depressurize too quickly. The cure for this condition is a hyperbaric chamber, where a diver is again put under oxygen pressure, the oxygen lowers the nitrogen concentration by displacement while under pressure, and then gradually the oxygen pressure is lowered to atmospheric. Since molecular oxygen is used by the body and molecular nitrogen is not, the excess oxygen under pressure is used up and no gasses form if the decompression is slow enough- a pretty easy solution for a serious problem (ie. the gas bubbles of nitrogen could cause stroke and blockages of all kinds in the blood stream- for example, two Red Blood Cells being forced into a capillary designed for only one and then getting stuck forever, killing the surrounding cells by cutting off their oxygen supply.) Regarding your other question about availability of oxygenated water in Australia, I can't answer that. I did post back on page 2 of this thread (my post of December 8), how you can make it yourself. If you need additional help on how to make it, just email me at anders@en.com. I was hoping that someone would actually make some since then and post a report here on their success or failure in doing so. But with spring approaching here in America, I doubt I'll be spending as much time here. Best wishes, Dave

Krys, if I'm an attack dog then you are a viper. How anyone could take this and turn it into this is, to me, an amazing poison pill you offer for consumption. Not a word about lymph nodes, which, after all, was the main part of the post as regards the theory and practice of oxygenated water. I was hoping that you'd at least recognize that lymphosites are cells which need oxygen to live and do their job, not to mention how they might get their oxygen. Actually, my quip about doing other's work for them had more to do with the fact that folks like you and the medical profession should have been discussing the benifits of oxygenated water thirty years ago, when Dr. Pakdaman first reported his work with cancer patients. But no, it takes an engineer to keep pounding the matter home thirty years later and being accused on this thread of far too many hateful things to even list them- all by no-names. Actually, this thread reminds me of when I first was introduced to PFAL in the mid sixties. I was a senior in college at the time and before that had attended Lutheran schools through grade school and high school. I'd gone to church every week, sang in the choir, organized paper drives, was president of my class most of those years (and when I refused to do it I agreed to be vice president and then had to do most of the work anyway), played football, basketball, etc., gave the speech at graduation on the value of a Christian education, and with all that figured that everyone I knew back home would just love to take this wonderful class called Power For Abundant Living. Boy was I surprised! Most figured they were far superior to me. After all, they knew that God sent doctors to heal people and so God healing people Himself was shear nonsense. (not to mention such a simple thing as drinking oxygenated water being able to help people as well.) And His actually providing evidence of the miraculous was nonsense as well. After all, while mentally assenting that He probably made the heavens and earth, it was obvious that He'd taken a walk since then. And we won't even consider those who thought Darwin quite superior to God. Actually, that's when I developed my 10% rule- only 10% of folks are even firing on all cylinders, let alone competent to discuss a particular issue. I'm probably exaggerating. It's probably far less than 10%! But two of the people that did take PFAL from my church were my 5-6 grade teacher and her future husband, my 7-8 grade teacher. I didn't hear from them again for over twenty years and I doubt they ever sent one dime to TWI and I know they never sent one dime to me. But they ended up in Tiawan for twenty years as missionaries (another of those five year committments that take twenty years to accomplish) and incorporated what they learned in their lives rather than becoming slaves to slogans like so many did that took PFAL. When they returned to the states they looked up mom and me to discuss my book and it was one of the great honors of my mom's life that they did- and the healing of her attitude that resulted was more than enough payment to me for effort spent all those long years ago to introduce them to a bible class. I read all the crap on Waydale disecting PFAL- as if the writers were far superior to Wierwille. But the fact is they were not. And their offerings of who else was a better bible teacher never satisfied either. I never met one who was more prepared, and better able to teach the simple things- like The Word of God is the Will of God, and the bible means what it says and says what it means, than he was. He was in many ways a culprit, but the man could teach the subject matter of the bible- which means, in part, hammering down the naysayers and all the attempts to debunk it, overt or subtle and devilish. So please be advised that I am more of a junk yard dog than an attack dog on the loose. I am chained and the owner of the junk yard, Jesus Christ himself, is very able to decide when I should be kept on a chain and when I can be let loose. So how about explaining why Kit's youthful hair is returning! I should have known you were never in the Way corp, since twi required not only a name but an address as well, and then years of attendence to boot. But then, so did the green card, which required a signature even, before one could get into a PFAL class (unless it as one of the many "illegal" classes held, and no one has even suggested that this did a bit of damage to anyone! But then maybe you don't think this nation has become a junk yard in need of many more than one junk yard dog like me! I used to be accused of being a trouble maker- until I realized that I never make trouble, I just won't back away from it if lives are at stake- much to the chagrin of those who do make the trouble.

Hello again Oldiesman. Coke and Pespi's water products are about 15 ppm (at least the bottles I tested were). That seems to be a common enough number in bottled water's that do add oxygen- assumedly because they can just use air under pressure rather than oxygen to raise the oxygen content that high. It's still double that of most tap water. I found the hiOsilver site interesting and if the product was first made since the beginning of last December it's probably owned by Goey, GarthP, Zixar, or perhaps even Krysilis- which would explain their gripes on this thread. But the web page evidently has been around for eight years so the question is whether they've had the hiOsilver product for that long. If they have, it sort of makes the point more eloquently than I could that the whole smoke and mrror comments about double blind studies are no more than thread killer attempts. I'd really hoped that Krysilis would spend her time posting about what she knew of oxygenated water and it's benefits on fish, animals and humans from her twenty years teaching biology. You would think that with access to the scientific method for so long she'd be able to tell the difference between what is science and what is not. But, alas, playing Mother Reprover seems to be a compulsory process with her- from which I conclude she was a fine WayCorp graduate. I guess she missed my opening comments about being far more interested in horses than people since they are at least honest and without guile- and would much rather run from a fight than start one. As for me, I haven't been interested in a popularity contest since at least grade school (although often enough I've been drafted by my peers to represent them, or do their work for them, since that time). About the only thing I'd object to from the link you cited was the claim that distilled water is cheeper than their spring water. If it is (in their case), they're paying way to much for spring water. I know it costs about 20 cents in electricity to boil a gallon of water in a small distiller (like the Kenmore Water Purifier I use). Actually that costs nothing in the winter because the heat goes into the room so that the thermostat doesn't come on as often- pay for the distilled water and get the heat for free. Summer time is a different story! In any event, I only use distilled water so that I know it must be the oxygen in it that has the profound effect and not anything else. But Penta Water has brought up the matter of the five molecule clusters, which may or may not happen when water is distilled and then saturated with oxygen. Logic tells me that it does (or perhaps even breakes it down to one molecule non-clustered water) but I'll leave the testing of that to someone else- I really don't care to spend the time and money investigating it. But if I'm right, Penta Water's patented process will turn out to be worthless, except for advertising value. Kit Sober will be happy to hear that they use glass bottles- and also that they are located not too far north of her. Do they sell HiOsilver Water in New York? What does it cost? Can't say that I know much at all about plastic and how much/how fast oxygen leaks (if at all)out through a plastic bottle. But I wouldn't put highly oxygenated water in aluminum cans in a million years, even if they were coated on the inside with plastic. It's only the alluminum oxide protective barrier that readily forms on aluminum metal in air that keeps it from turning to dust in a hurry. And even so, it doesn't do all that well staying in tact. One final thing I've been meaning to post for some time now. Most of the literature talks about lymph nodes as being filters. But to an engineer a filter generally means that there is a filtrate and a precipitate formed by the filter. There evidently is no precipitate discharged by the lymph nodes and so it appears to be more like a screen than a filter. But I came across a site by a Dr. Greene, that made the case that a lymph node was really more like a school than a filter. And this school was charged with training lymphocytes how to deal with life as they knew it. And so they learned how to specialize in attacking various toxins and destroying them (chewing them up so that they became small enough to pass through the school while not overly disturbing the class in progress. Swelled lymph nodes are therefore the result of too many class disturbances so that a riot results and the doors are closed so as not to disturb the entire neighborhood. (We wouldn't want these fine schools to be shut down perminately after all by an irate neighborhood!) As this pertains to this thread, these lymphocites go from an inactivbe state (sitting at their desk writing a term paper) to an active state (screaming, running around, killing toxins, etc.). There's probably a wierd sounding alarm outside the front door to alert the neighborhood when the doors are shut, and even an automatic window shut/lock function if the noise level keeps increasing even after the doors are shut and locked. Problem is that after the roudiness goes on long enough with no oxygen supply, that some of the students morph into real lunitics called cancer cells- cells incapable of helping the body and only hurting it. Seems to me that highly oxygenated water would at least slow down the rate of lunitic formation if not reduce the number of riots in these schools. Warburg got the Nobel Prize in 1931 for his discovery of the nature and mode of action of the respritory enzyme in cells, which he found by measuring combustion in cells (which he called cellular respiration). Seems this "enzyme" was only one millionth of the weight of a cell but by such exact measurements he could determine the nature of this "enzyme" and how it acted. Seems he was comparing cells in an orderly school in a lymph node to one in which a riot was going on. That's a guess until I can find out more from his publications before and after that time. But I do know combustion and so as early as 1931 the process was known as a combustion reaction, which, by definition requires oxygen as one of the reactants and food/fuel as the other. Respiration on the cell level is merely a combustion reaction in a water solution. One glucose molecule plus six oxygen molecules produces 6 carbon dioxide molecules and six water molecules if the combustion is complete. And, it produces a net of 36 ATP "units of energy" for distribution and use by the cell. Unfortunately, many of the charts and pictures that talk about cellular respiration omit the oxygen all together, as if it didn't count. They go into great detail about electron transport, the Kreb cycle, glycolysis, nine enzymes involved, etc. But like a seminary that never quite gets around to teaching Bible because there are so many other things of interest to teach that everybody either forgets the obviously most basic knowledge or never learns it in the first place. So some obvious observations are in order. One glucose molecule requires 6 oxygen molecules for it to be completely burned and it's potential energy turned into the chemical energy of 36 ATP molecules. Chances are that one or more of the six oxygens required won't show up in time and so incomplete combustion happens and like a smoking engine in an old car, good energy goes out the tail pipe and starts clogging up the system. One article suggested that seldom are even 30 ATP's formed. And so, when it comes to oxygen, more of it being around is always better, as medical doctors have told me- not to mention that the higher the partial pressure of oxygen at the cell level the better- more of a chance that all six oxygens will arrive to chew up a glucose molecule.

Goey: Your second comment is largely answered by your first. If something is not dangerous, why would their need to be any double blind studies? As I've stated, these kind of studies are not in the realm of science but rather in the realm of probability and statistics. They do not show cause and effect like physics, chemistry, and the other exact sciences do. Engineers do not use them because engineers are required to show cause and effect in their designs. In fact, I cannot think of a single engineering course through college that even introduced the concept of P numbers. I only know about them because of the various statistics courses I took as electives- "an estimate that the probability of a hypotheses being true is correct". Fact is that I'm appauled at all the pill ads on TV these days and especially their disclaimers- "don't take this if you have liver, kidney, etc., problems and if in doubt consult your doctor", and then the common side effects listed, nausea, high blood pressure, diaherrea, constipation, etc.- all of which speak to the danger, not the safety, of the pills. And these all have passed the test of "pear reviewed", "properly designed", "published" (in an acceptable journal- preferably the New England Journal of Medicine backed by Harvard), "AMA approved" tests that are commonly double blinded, crossover tests. The "proven effective" is merely an add on to the main reason for the study, to show they are "safe" inspite of the fact that they are not 100% safe, merely 95%, 99.5%, or 99.9% safe under "normal" conditions- which means they are not safe! As far as your comment about removing bias, get real. These studies are funded by folks wanting to make money and greed is the biggest bias of all! Finally, the word ANECDOTAL, in its original sense means a secret history, or facts not generally known. If you doubt that, just look up the word in Noah Webster's American Dictionary of the English Language (1828). It has come to mean of questionable validity by the same folks that brought you statistical horsedang in the guise of science. So cut the crap about "anecdotal evidence" and limit your questions to evidence without the slur word in front of it. I've reported plenty of evidence and none of it is in the private domain. The biggest evidence is all that bottled water on grocery shelves these days- at least some of which- Dissanti, Aquafina, Penta Water, in particular- have oxygen added. My thesis is that the added oxygen is the reason why for years now there has been more space allotted to water on grocery shelves than 20 or 30 years ago. This is observable fact, not anecdotal evidence. And that fact alone shows the stupidity of the argument that one should not drink oxygenated water until the medical profession gets good and ready to endorse it. But that's not all. You have, on this forum, numerous people, including myself, who have publically stated that they drank oxygenated water and found it benificial. I've even reported that it helped various animals and that they like it and drink more of it than tap or well water. So call us all liars if you will, but don't blow smoke in our faces with the word anecdotal and fear tactics about it not being safe. All the bottled water sold these days speaks to millions of others who have benifited as well, or are at least buying it to try it out. All I know is that on a scale of 1 to 10, I'll bet my money on the medical profession being the bigger rip off artists than the bottled water folks. But after three months of discussion here, I have yet to hear from anyone that actually made their own oxygenated water (other than Kit Sober, who had been making it for herself long before this thread started.) Obviously money can be made by doing so but that was not my intent in starting this thread and telling everyone how to make it themselves. But the profit motive is a very good reason why bottled water manufacturers, as well as the medical profession, won't tell you that it works or how it works. So get off the double blind study routine. If you currently make the water yourself and sell it for profit, I'll understand your motives for trying to shut this thread down. Otherwise, it would be more helpful to explain to those interested what happens to water when you drink it, oxygenated or not. It is amazing to me the dirth of information on that subject on the internet. I remain at the point that any oxygen dissolved in it will go the same places that water does- until is it used by the body.

Hello Oldiesman. Since it's been a week now that Zixar has not answered your questions, allow me to take a shot at them. First of all, from the "flavor" of all of Zixar's previous posts, his "free oxygen" comment appears to be more smoke and mirrors designed to confuse the issue and put molecular oxygen in the category of "free radicals", oxygen free radicals" and "reactive oxygen species". Fact is that molecular oxygen, O2, is neither free nor a radical. We either pay the energy cost required to get it into our system by breathing, or, as suggested in this thread, we can pay the cost of maximizing it's presence in water and then drinking it. The second option does not replace the first, but it does inhance it by increasing the partial pressure and concentration of oxygen in the entire body- while at the same time increasing our hydration level as well. A bonifide two-for-one deal! Secondly, molecular oxygen is not a radical, it is a molecule. A radical is part of a molecule, and the term "free radical" is used of those distructive ions (radicals) that participate in one reaction and then move on to participate in another, and another, as they do their destructive work. "Oxygen free radicals" are ions that contain oxygen. Finally, the term "reactive oxygen speces" seems to me to be a deliberate attempt to include molecular oxygen in the category of "free radical" when it is not. In the nature of problem solving, the problem cannot be the solution as well. Molecular oxygen is the solution to the body's problems, not their cause. Regarding your second question about antioxidants, the class of chemical reactions called "redox" reactions (oxidation-reduction reactions) involves two or more molecules reacting with each other such that one is oxidized and the other reduced. There may be no oxygen involved in the reaction at all. I suppose that oxygen was used as the zero point on the oxidation scale because it is so common. For example, in extractive metallurgy, many metals begin their journey from being in the ground as sulfide ores. A common process for concentrating these ores is to grind them fine and bubble them up through water with a pinch of this or that (eg. pine tar) added to the water as wetting agents that will captivate the sulfide ore so it attaches to an air bubble. The air bubbles do nothing to the gangue- so the sulfide ore floats to the top on the bubbles and the gangue stays on the bottom. It is entirely a physical process, not a chemical one. But once the ore is concentrated, it then goes into a furnace and various fluxes are added, including carbon. The metalic ion is reduced to metal (ie. the metalic ion gets electrons to negate it's positive charge) and the sulfide loses it's excess electrons and is oxidixed. And so, the class of foods called antioxidants are those that work against free radical formation. For example, iron has a great affinity for oxygen, as anybody who ever lived in Cleveland during the chrome plated car bumper era knows. Given a few short years, many cars had the iron in the bumpers completely chewed away by the salt water from the roads in winter time and the oxygen it contained, so that only the plate- of copper, nickel and chrome- remained hanging on. What people may not know is that at the surface of a piece of iron left out to rust, the color is reddish brown, the color of Fe+3. But if one takes a miner's pick and hammers on the rust, underlying the reddish brown will be black Fe+2 (the reduced form of iron oxide). The surface is Fe+3 (the oxidized form of iron oxide). And the dirty rotten iron atom goes easily from +2 to +3 valence and back again and so is a worthy oxygen transport system to take the oxygen from the air to the good metal hidden beneith all that rust- particularly in a salt water solution. The copper, nickel, chrome plate has no such mechanism and so survives long after the iron has all turned to rust. So also, in hemoglobin the iron ion in the heme molecule needs to be in the +2 valence state in order for it to pick up oxygen and transport it. If it is in the +3 state it is called methemoglobin and can hold no oxygen. So Fe+2 is the reduced state (closer to metal) and Fe+3 is the oxidized state. Although I am no expert on antioxidants and their role in the body, it seems apparent that, for one thing, they would tend to keep the iron ion in hemoglobin in the +2 state rather than the +3 state where it can do no good. Along these lines, the hemoglobin molecule is shaped like a bean, C shaped if you will. But it has two states, a closed one and an open one, and O or a C. While traveling through the blood stream it is in the O state and only opens to the C state to grab onto oxygen in the lungs or when it is squeezed in the capillary to give up one or more oxygen molecules. The dynamics of hemoglobin loading depends on how much oxygen is around to be grabbed onto, the plasma oxygen concentration, but also depends on the water quality around it, since it'a ability to load requires that water line the inside of the C before oxygen can get to the heme group. In the blood stream generally, the iron would soon be oxidized to the +3 state if the "bean" did not stay tightly closed- oxygenated water or no oxygenated water. And so hemoglobin does quite an acrobatic act as it flows through the body- and too much iron in the system is as bad as not enough iron in the system. Like most things in the body, and in life as well, it's quite a balancing act. My experience with oxygenated water is that it helps this balancing act, not hurts it in the least. Hypoxia (too little oxygen) is the problem, not hyperoxia (too much oxygen)! If it were possible to get more than enough oxygen by drinking oxygenated water, (and I don't think it is), the body has a ready system to slow things down- breathe less frequently or less deeply, both of which options mean the body has to expend less energy to breathe and the heart has to pump with less intensity and/or frequency- a very good thing. Anyway, this whole debate seems to go back and forth from "won't work" to "it's dangerous", depending on the mood of the adverasries. My claim is that it does work and is not dangerous. And that claim comes from knowledge and reason, not blind studies of the blind leading the blind into the ditch. I don't know of anything that makes antioxidants a "fad". And oxygenated water has been around long enough that it also is not a "fad". I should warn the medical profession that there are a lot of unemployed engineers around these days due to the systematic efforts to bring America down to the "world class" level (since it is not possible to bring the rest of the world up to where America was in standard of living.) And all these engineers can read and understand what they read every bit as well as medical doctors can. Some may even go to the bother of learning yet another foreign language, medicalese. Even the old "sawbones" (surgeons) can't blow much smoke in our faces any more, given the internet, even though the engineers I know would much rather cut on metal than cut on people. I respect a sergeon's skill with a scalpel, but if they want to claim that what we eat, drink, and breathe is their exclusive domain to determine, they'd better go back to school and learn these areas because they didn't learn them in medical school. And, it seems to me, we're fast aproaching the time when no one can afford medical insurance or the high cost of medical care, and so we'd better take our health back into our own hands or we'll surely end up both broke and dead. Hope that helps Oldiesman. We're a week closer to spring and motorcycle riding time!

Zixar: I'm still waiting on you to redo your previous post and admit that the solubility of oxygen in the water fraction of of the blood, the plasma, is much more than 3 ppm. I'm also waiting on you to answer Oldiesman's questions. In the mean time I'll merely point out that resorption in the bowel, of the water secreted with bile for digestion, is different than absorption of water in the small intestine on an empty stomach. It remains that 80% of the water we drink is absorbed in the small intestine, not the bowel. I'm also waiting on you to admit that oxygen in welding grade oxygen bottles is the same as oxygen in medical grade oxygen bottles. I'm also waiting on you to admit that the majority of water we drink goes into the lymph system and gets distributed to the entire body without necessarily having to go into the circulatory system first. And it would be helpful if you admitted that every molecule of the oxygen we breathe has to get dissolved in water (the plasma) in the lungs before it can even get close to hemoglobin in a red blood cell. In other words, hemoglobin is not the be all and end all of oxygen transport in the body but is rather a subset of that transport, even though a very important one. Granted that hemoglobin loading and unloading is a facinating study in itself, but so also is the lymph system, and you apparently still don't want to talk about that in any detail. Come to think about it, seems that with the discussion of the lacteals and all the other lymph nodes in the body that are part of the lymph system, that you aught to admit that the lymph system is not limited to "leakage" from the capillaries going right back to the blood system. As for Long Gone's question of all the hydrochloric acid in the stomach and enzymes secreted for digestion, perhaps you should address that as well. I rather suspect that the pyloric valve closes when the stomach is full of food, not necessarily when we drink water on an empty stomach. Reports on drinking oxygenated water on a full stomach, or while eating, indicate that there is no positive effect on performance in horses. But there is a positive effect when consumed on an empty stomach (and every athlete knows that you work out on an empty stomach, not a full one.) It seems that about all oxygen does on a full stomach is neutralize hydrochloric acid- no damage, but then no help either. Bile secreted in the duodinum during digestion does a good job of neutralizing acid, and I rather suspect that the main function of the pyloric valve is to regulate how much food is emptied into the small intestine and when.

HELLO Zixar! Maybe we're finally getting somewhere. If you rethink your last post realizing that the saturation of oxygen in water at 100 F is not 3 but 6.8 ppm, you'll see exactly what I have been talking about for the last two months. The number you call saturated (3 ppm) is the maximum concentration that can be delivered when healthy hemoglobin drops it's oxygen off into the plasma at a capillary, because hemoglobin cannot deliver oxygen at a pressure greater than 39 mm Hg. As we age that goes down, and down, and down- unless we drink oxygenated water! So in the air, the oxygen partial pressure is 21% of 760 mm Hg or 160 mm Hg. By the time it gets into the alveolus of the lungs it's only about 105 mm Hg. By the time it gets into the arterial system it is only about 95 mm Hg and by the time it gets through the capillaries and is knocking on the door of the capillary wall, including the oxygen furnished by the unloading of hemoglobin, it is only a maximum of 39 mm Hg (ie. only 3 ppm oxygen generally in the plasma). The drop of pressure in the capillaries is by far the larget single oxygen pressure drop in the whole circulatory system- from 95 to 39 mm Hg. But then it must cross the capillary membrane and get into the interstitial fluid, which drops it further to about 25 mm Hg. It drops further in pressure as it crosses the cell membrane so that in the cystol, knocking at the door of the mitochondria, where it is actually used for combustion (metabolism) it is 10 mm Hg down to zero mm Hg. And it is this range, 0- 10 mm Hg that is the difference between life and death. The lecture notes in front of me give as reading assignment, West, J.B. "Respiratory Physiology- The Essentials" (4th Ed.) and Mines, AH., "Respiratory Physiology", Raven Press, Chapters 4, 5, & 6. The lecture was by a Dr. Baer, entitled, "Oxygen & Carbon Dioxide Transport By Blood". Hopefully you can find it with your search engine as I don't know the site location. The paper is 16 pages long and is excellent. But now let's say you drink a 16 oz bottle of water that is nice and cold, say 40 F, is saturated with oxygen (which is about 65 ppm at 40 F) and do so on an empty stomach. Even if you drink it all at once, you will not burp. And if you are standing or sitting upright, the water has about an 18 inch drop to get to the small intestines. It probably won't get to the small intestines as fast as merely pouring the water out in front of you from the height of the mouth, but from Pakdaman's work of long ago, it appears that the plasma oxygen concentration goes up about 18% in a matter of five minutes or so and stays there for about an hour. So the processing of the water and the oxygen with it starts pretty darn fast. Since you can feel the cold water going down to the stomach it appears that it doesn't warm all the way up to 100F before reaching the small intestines. But lets say it warms half the way up before reaching there. Still one does not burp, meaning that any oxygen that comes out of the water as the temperature rises (say 65 ppm to 35 ppm) gets absorbed by the tissues lining the mouth, tongue, stomach, etc. and the water they are immersed in. Actually, my guess is that the few seconds it takes to get to the small intestine doesn't heat 16 oz. of water much at all. And once there it goes wherever the pressure gradient is highest. As one paper I read said, the body will take care of it's pressure requirements before all else- including the pressure gradient from water with oxygen at close to 760 mm Hg to plasma at 39 mm Hg in the capillaries and to water in the interstitial space that is only about 30 mm Hg. But before you get to thinking that this can kill you, think again. Hyperbaric therapy begins above 760 mm Hg oxygen partial pressure. And the literature published by the medical doctors in that field state that people can be kept alive that have no hemoglobin function if they can get the plasma oxygen concentration above 30 ppm. The hyperbaric pressure needed to do that is 30 divided by 6.8 (the solubility of oxygen in fresh water at 100 F) or 4.4 atmospheres. I'm not recommending that at all and have no interest in becoming a medical doctor. I'm just saying that people with no hemoglobin function whatsoever can be kept alive in a hyperbaric chamber if the plasma oxygen concentration can be gotten above 30 ppm. It's been done. In the hypothetical case above, drinking a cold glass of oxygen saturated water, remember that we are not overwhelming the body's ability to handle it at all. As I said early on in this thread, the body is 60% water and so a 200# person will consist of 120# of water on average. We're adding 1# to 120#, or less than 1%, to the water content of the body. But if the 120# of water, whether in the circulatory system, the lymph system, the interstitial spaces or in the cells themselves (which, by the way contain two thirds of the body's water), contains on average 3 ppm oxygen, and we add 1# containing 65 ppm, the resulting average oxygen concentration in the body's water now becomes (120x3 + 65x1)/121 or 3.5 ppm-still way below the saturation point. That's a 17% increase in all the water in the body and it's going to help you not hurt you. How long it takes to get everywhere in the body, and how it gets there remains to be seen, whether through the lymph system, circulatory system, directly into the intestitial spaces, or directly into the cells it first meets on it's way down the hatch, and in what ratios, the fact is that it does do so. So just put 6.8 where you figured saturation was 3 and report back. Thanks for the input.

GarthP: Since you are so starved for attention and recognition on this thread I'll give you some, in the hope that you'll finally shut up and not clutter the place with everything but questions or comments on on oxygenated water. Actually I'm quite surprised that you didn't latch onto the word hate and launch into a dissertation on how we should love everyone and everything. Then your fellow-travelers could list all the scriptures of what God hates and everyone could suffer through another hundred posts before finding any more information about oxygenated water. But, alas, you chose to focus on my 90% rule (ie. only 10% of any given group of people are firing on all cylinders at any given time- that's my theory of relativity in case you didn't know). Then you just have to change it as in the above quote from you. I didn't say that 90% of medical doctors were quacks. So please cease and desist from puting words in my mouth. I'm quite capable of choosing my own words, even though, in hind sight, my statement might have been better said by saying that I hated what the medical profession had become- the snake oil salesmen of the twentieth and twenty first centuries- pills and the knife. There are two things I recall that God hates, a lying tongue and feet that run to mischief. Do consider that the next time you want to distort what I say or strain out gnats and swallow camels. To the rest of you, sorry again for the interruption. The problem generally in talking about gasses, weither oxygen, carbon dioxide, nitrogen, or most others, is that one can't see them, can't smell them, feel them, weight them, or even determine that they exist except indirectly. It wasn't until oxygen was discovered, and determined to be only 21% of the weight of air, that we even knew it existed. Of course it existed since Adam, we just didn't know it. We know there is air in our tires because we hear something coming out when one gets punctured by a nail. And we know a little about pressure because the tire is flat when all the air leaks out and it's inflated again when we get it fixed. The guy that fixes it might even ask you how much pressure you want in your tire because the ride is a little better if the pressure is 28 psi. But you get better gas milage (even if only a little better) if your tires are inflated to 32 psi. So it's our choice- provided we stay within the limits that the tire was designed for. It always tells you in the fine print on the tire. Then there's the matter of how fast or how slow something happens, it's rate- as in the hourly rate you get paid for work. It physicaly takes time to do anything. With computer chips they talk about nanoseconds, which is one billionth of a second. Not much time but time nevertheless. In the case of water saturated with oxygen under an oxygen atmosphere, how long all the oxygen remains in the water once the bottle is opened and left with air above it depends on a number of things, chief of which are temperature of both the water and the air above it, and the time relationship of the composition of the air immediately above the water. In other words, just because the air in your kitchen is 21% oxygen, that doesn't mean that the air at the surface of the water is 21% oxygen- simply because oxygen is coming out of the water and making the air at the surface much richer in oxygen than that in the room generally. So if you asked me how long water with 75 ppm oxygen in it will stay at 75 ppm, I'd reply that it would be less than that in a matter of minutes, even if you kept the water near freezing. If you asked me how long it stayed above 40 ppm I'd say at least overnight (again assuming the water was kept close to freezing). If you asked me how long it would take for the oxygen content to get down to 15 ppm (where many of the bottled water oxygen contents are to begin with) I'd say days. If you asked me how long it would take for the oxygen content to get down to the same amount as is in your tap water (0-8 ppm), I'd likely say weeks, if not months! There's another factor that's involved, namely the relative solubilities of oxygen and nitrogen in water. Nitrogen is less soluble in water than oxygen is. And so, even with 79% nitrogen and only 21% oxygen above the water/air interface, it takes longer than one would expect for the nitrogen to again replace oxygen in water. You might say that water loves oxygen more than it loves nitrogen. So it hangs onto oxygen as long as it can before nitrogen overwhelms it. It's the reason I was so surprised that oxygenated water stayed above 40 ppm in a horses water bucket over night (starting out at 75 ppm). As I mentioned a few posts ago, carbon dioxide is 22 times as soluble in water than oxygen is. Fortunately air doesn't contain very much carbon dioxide. In fact there is so little carbon dioxide in air that it's just included in the "other" when one wants to get more precise than 21% oxygen, 79% nitrogen. Actually, the 79% nitrogen is only 78% nitrogen and the "other" is 1%. Of the "other" the vast majority is argon. So that leaves only a very little of a very little that is left for carbon dioxide. For those of you who may not know, the solid form of carbon dioxide is dry ice. You can make your own soft drink by throwing a little piece of dry ice into water and adding some sugar and whatever tasty thing you like- like lemon or lime, or whatever. I'm not recommending it because the body really doesn't want any more CO2. But if you have access to dry ice it's cheaper than buying soft drinks at the store. Just don't put a cap on the concoction before all the dry ice is gone or you're likely to have the bottle burst on you and a mess all over the place- sort of like opening a can of coke or pepsi that's warm and has been dropped! Finally, to give you a picture of what happens to an open or closed bottle, allow me to tell yet another story. I had occassion to teach a high school chemistry class back in the mid 79's for a couple of months and we were getting into the matter of vapor pressure. So I took an empty gallon can (like the square gallon cans one used to keep gasoline in) put an inch or two of water in the bottom, and asked the class what they thought would happen if I heated the water to boiling, screwed the top on, and then put the can into cold water. Some speculated that the can would blow up, others said that nothing would happen, and I don't think anybody even suspected that a pair of invisable hands would descend from heaven and crush that can. So after they were through speculating I got the water to boiling, so that one could see steam coming out the spout. The steam drove out all the air above the water so that all that was left in the can was water vapor and liquid water- both at 212 F. When I put the cap on and cooled both the vapor and water, the temperature dropped to the point that a vacuum was created in the can as the vapor went back to liquid water. The demonstration was dramatic- just like an ivisable pair of hands crushed the can. So one of the students asked what would happen if I again heated the water with the cap on. So I said, "Let's see". As the water heated up the vapor pressure again increased and ever so slowly the can started to undo the damage caused by the invisable hands. Don't know what the pressure was inside since I didn't have a pressure gauge attached to it. Couldn't have been much. But before the can got back to it's original shape it sprung a leak and with it a psssst with a pin point jet of steam coming out. They all dove under their desks! They were in no danger at all, but thought they were. And so it appears to be on this thread about oxygenated water. If one doesn't have a feel for what a millimeter of mercury pressure is, or a psi, one can easily figure that one of them can cause an explosion. Just like the comments about oxygen in the room or the refrigerator on this thread. Fact is that if you have a candle burning in the living room and you replace the air in the room with pure oxygen, the candle will burn five times as fast, maybe even a little faster than that since the flame temperature will go up. But it won't explode the room. And it won't light a candle that is not burning. Oxygen is the agent that causes combustable things to burn, it does not burn itself. It is to be used with caution for that very reason, things burn five times faster if they are set on fire in an oxygen atmosphere rather than in air. On the other side of the coin, someone using oxygen from an oxygen generator should be aware that they are consuming the oxygen in the room and increasing the nitrogen concentration as the oxygen generator seperates the two- if they don't have adequate ventilation to the room. In the extreme, you'll notice that the lit candle will go out! But opening a window or door, even in the dead of winter, has been a easy solution to that problem for a very long time. Nothing like a breath of fresh air. And due to another gas law, or rather a combination of them, PV=nRT, one can readily see that if the pressure is atmospheric, and the volume of the room doesn't change, then an inflow of very cold air will increase the oxygen concentration much faster than if it is warm air coming in. (in the "puvnert" equation n represents the mass of air/oxygen, R is a constant, so that if T goes down, n must go up, given that both P and V are constant.) (Sorry about that mathmatics, I've tried to keep it to a minimum but just couldn't help myself.)

Goey: The best I've been able to find out is that 80% of the water we consume enters the body at the small intestines. It's a guess that 2/3 of this water goes directly into the lacteals and 1/3 goes into the blood stream, and that guess is based on the relative size of each "pipe", circulatory and lymph, that comes out of each villi. It assumes that there are plenty of aquaporin to let the water pass through the blood membrane, because, if not, much more would go directly into the lacteal system that has no such membrane to restrict it from entering. As an aside, it seems that the tongue is filled with lymphatics and so no doubt some water we drink gets into the body right at the tongue and gums and mouth. No doubt more gets absorbed as we swallow and in the stomach. But evidently 80% remains to be absorbed in the small intestine. Otherwise, it seems to me, we'd all have the runs all the time and no solid feces at all. Granted that the bowel reabsorbs water that is secreted with bile just below the stomach, but if it also had to absorb the water we drink as well, it seems it would soon be overwhelmed. Anyway, I'll be happy to be corrected if you find a more definative work on how the water we drink gets absorbed by the body. At this point all I really know is that it doesn't all get absorbed by the blood stream before it can do any good. The blood system is only half the size of the lymphatic system and so it is fair to assume that twice as much water is in it as is in the blood system. How all the water we drink (about 3 pounds (48 ounces) a day in the average person) gets to every place in the body so that the body is kept at an average composition of 60% water, is still way beyond me to figure out. But I now know that there are all kinds of cross links in the lymph system that are not found in the circulatory system. I also now know that the walls of the lymph system are much thinner and more fragile than those of the circulatory system and so gas (oxygen) transport across them is much easier. So if we drink a bottle of coke, the water in it will be saturated with carbon dioxide (which is 22 times more solubile in water than oxyygen is) and this carbon dioxide will go whereever water goes. The same applies to to a bottle of oxygen saturated water. The oxygen will go wherever the water goes. In the first case, the carbon dioxide is unwanted by the body and so the body wants to get rid of it from the time it enters the mouth. Therefore the burps that have been brought up from time to time here, because everyone has had that experience drinking soft drinks. But in the second case every cell of the body wants the oxygen in the water and so will take it whereever they find it. If the lymph system is filled with carbon dioxide gas in water there can only be trouble. If it's filled with oxygen in water it must lead to good health. Not that it will overcome in an instant any and every disease that has taken years and years to manifest itself, but it is going to help, not hurt- how little or how much it helps remains to be seen, not waited on until the medical profession gets good and ready to tell us. In fact, this is the principle behind hyperbaric treatment for the bends. With the bends, the nitrogen solubilized in the water of the body under pressure begins to come out of solution as the pressure returns to normal, and this causes nitrogen gas bubbles to form in the blood stream, which then plug it up arteries and cause stroke. The solution is to pressurize the body in a hyperbaric chamber under an oxygen atmosphere, thereby reducing the amount of nitrogen in the blood stream by exhaling it. As the pressure is gradually reduced back to atmospheric, the excess oxygen in the blood, the oxygen needed to displace the excess nitrogen, is used up by the body and so no oxygen gas bubbles form and the victim recovers from the bends. Unfortunately, the medical profession has limited the use of hyperbarics for most of the past century to cases of the bends instead of everything else it's good for as well. As reported early in this thread, it works for strokes of all kinds and yet when the medicare regs came out in the early 70's it was not approved for stroke victims because "it would break the bank", ie, social security would have been in deep trouble long before now- too many people on social security would have been healed and lived too long for the system to stand. Around the time I started this thread two friends ended up in the hospital for a week. One, Rich, spent the week with an oxygen tube up his nose. The bills for both of them exceeded $80,000 and neither of them had any surgery but suposedly were there only for observation. While visiting one evening Rich's doctor came in and I tried to bring up the matter of hyperbaric treatment. He'd been a doctor for many years and only replied that he'd seen one at another local hospital where he'd worked years prior but that doctors had mostly lost interest in the therapy. He said that Rich's problem was not lack of oxygen. So here I was, looking at Rich with an oxygen tube up his nose and his doctor saying that oxygen was not his problem. That's the arrogance of the medical profession these days. By the end of the week Rich felt much better but the doctor did not prescribe oxygen for him. His problem was congestive heart failure and the doctor didn't seem to think that lack of oxygen had anything to do with it- except he'd ordered a tube stuck up his nose with oxygen coming out of it for a week. The doctor clearly didn't want to discuss oxygen and immediately started his backward shuffle to get out of the room. So I asked him if he'd done blood gas levels and he said they weren't needed, but allowed that they were easy to do. That's when I knew he was lying because they are not easy to do- especially when the sample has to be passed through lots of hands before testing so that everyone can share in the $80,000 bill. Plasma oxygen must be measured immediately as it keeps being used up on it's way to the lab. Anyway, the doctors parting shot when he reached the door was "ve vill put that out of our minds". Five minutes max he was in the room. Along these lines, recently I read that over half of the bankrupcies in this country last year were middle class families with health insurance that had to declare bankrupcy because their share of the medical bills was too much for them to handle. After seeing the huge stack of bills for Rich and Mary Ann, I don't doubt that for a minute. And, what's worse, is that every page says to report fraud and overbilling, except that if one does that, Medicare and Medicaid will simply not pay the bill and leave it to folks like Rich and Mary Ann to pay it themselves and be forced into bankrupcy. And that's just one story of many that I know. So do I hate the medical profession, you bet I do. I've met fine doctors but would be surprised it more than ten percent of doctors in general are even honest let alone capable. But $80,000 for a weeks stay for two at Hotel Hospital, does put the cost of oxygenated water into perspective in a hurry. Rich and Mary Ann didn't even have their own room but had to visit each other when they could down the hall.

Sorry to the rest of you for the distraction. Hopefuylly what follows will have a little more substance to chew on. From Gray's Anatomy: "The lymphatic vessels of the small intestine receive the special designation of lacteals or chyliferous vessels; they differ in no respect from the lymphatic vessels generally excepting that during the process of digestion they contain a milk-white fluid, the chyle." So when food is not being digested the lacteals contain the water that you drink between meals. Also from Gray's Anatomy: "Two views are presently held as to the mode in which lymph is formed: one being by the physical processes of filtration, diffusion, and osmosis, and the other, that in addition to these physical processes, the endotheleal cells have an active secretory function." Granted that this was written at least before 1916 (the edition from which the quotes come), but I rather doubt that the view of an active secretory role of the lymph system has been debunked by the AMA, at least not in the secretion of gasses, particularly oxygen, from the lymph- if it is in the water to begin with! So, from the above two quotes it appears that the part of the lymph system called the lacteals, is on a par with the part not originating in the small intestine. How they are interconnected and/or related is still way beyond me. I did find on a University of Michigan Medical School site a table from "Medcharts Anatomy", by Thomas R. Gest and Jaye Schlesiunger, (1995) cataloging the lymphatics of the abdoman. They show 45 types or classes of lymph nodes in the abdomen alone. And in the class, mesenteric nodes, there is a note saying there are about 200 of these nodes alone. Previously I'd read that there are an estimated 200 lymph nodes in the entire body and now I find that there are some 200 of them in just one of 45 classes of nodes in the abdomen alone! Further, "in the viscera, lymphatics generally follow arteries and form plexuses (networks) around them." And so the statement earlier in this thread implying that the lacteals merely conveyed water to the thoractic duct so it can get into the blood stream, omits the fact that before doing so this water goes through hundreds if not thousands of lymph nodes that have lots of different things done in them, and in the process wraps around the arterial side of the blood stream to transfer oxygen from the lymph directly to the plasma. At least that's my take on the above quotes. But lets cut to the chase for a moment. I started this thread as a "here's looking at you" kind of toast to your health. In a former time I might have had coke or pepsi in my glass. We've all drank plenty of that for years and years. And it's basically just carbon dioxide saturated water with some sugar and other stuff thrown in to give it a taste. And carbon dioxide is 22 times as soluble in water as oxygen is. So we have deliberately added lots of stuff to the body that the body absolutely wants to get rid of. So I suggest that we drink water with oxygen added, something the body must have or die, and the resulting uproar by some is quite astounding. All I can figure is that it is a pecking order kind of thing, some wanting to object simply to assert their presumed right to be superior- or simply to take up space- hero's in their own mind. I brought up Penta Water because it's on the market and I know that it contains at least 40 ppm oxygen. They don't claim that on the bottle, in fact I've seen no bottled water that even puts a number to the oxygen concentration on the label. But my thesis two years ago was that a good number of bottled water companies add oxygen to their water and this is what makes people come back for more- it works! Add a little oxygen and it works a little, add a lot and it works a lot. Therefore the huge amount of bottled water products on the grocery shelves is explained- not as a fad that will go away but as something that will probably in the end drive soft drink companies out of business. No doubt Penta Water will hate this thread because I'm telling the world how oxygen in water helps the body, or at least how I think it helps the body. Bye, bye trade secrets. And I've told you all how to make it yourself. If they want to challenge what I say they can always take the oxygen out of their product and see if their sales increase or decrease. Or maybe have a Penta Lite product. Penta Water pitches an entirely different premise than added oxygen, the small water clusters, that may or may not do a thing, or may or may not be any different sized water clusters than that soon formed in the lacteals once the water gets there. Penta Water does state on it's label that USP medical grade oxygen is used in their process and so avoids the matter of welding grade and medical grade oxygen coming from the same producers. Hmmm, I wonder what doctor gave them a prescription to get the medical grade oxygen? I always thought that a doctor's perscription was for a specific individual and not blanket coverage for the whole country. Or maybe they purchased a license from FEDGOV and thereby have permission to use medical grade without a doctors perscription. Whatever, I have no quarrel with Penta Water. It's the easiest way to try some seriously oxygenated water to see if it does anything for you or not. Or don't do so, don't make your own, go get some coke or pepsi. It's all the same to me. I didn't come here to force anybody to do anything, just like I never forced anybody to take PFAL. Nor did I force anybody to leave twi when I did, although i sure wish many of my friend would have instead of figuring I was right next to the devil for being "tripped out". Penta Water wants to make money and I have no problem with that. I don't even have a problem with their getting a patent on the way they make the water. It's a slick way to intimidate some into thinking they might be violating their patent by making their own oxygenated water. But the patent doesn't cover the addition of oxygen to water generally because that is not patentable. Lots of people have been doing that for years. It merely covers adding oxygen to water that is made according to their process. And fat chance anybody will accidently stumble onto the way they process the water. Anyway, here's looking at ya. Oh, and Chuck, I'm still waiting for you to offer to buy me a steak here at Paw's Steak House. Any chance we can get a table away from the busseling crowd?

Well Zixar, looks like you're no chemist at all. I was rather hoping that you were. For you to say, "your precious Henry's Law", as if this was some small, insignificant law of my private domain, tells more about your character and lack of knowledge than you know. Henry's law has been around for two hundred years, having first been reported by William Henry (1774-1836), an English chemist. Every chemistry student and engineering student learns it their first year in college. So it appears to me that your terminology is a common ploy to take attention off your ignorance and embarrassment for being so obviously uninformed. And then you continue to assert that one cannot bubble oxygen through water in a bottle and get it to saturation under an oxygen environment, for you certainly can, with no more pressure than it takes for a bubble to form at the bottom of the bottle. Naw, you're no chemist. But your buddy Garth immediately showed up to chime in with his "Dr. Dave" line, to shore up the "your precious Henry's Law" defamation. So maybe you and he should go play in the sandbox somewhere and let the adults alone. Looks like Garth has only one arrow in his quiver, belittling names, but he forgot to bring his bow to the hunt! Come back when you both grow up.

Oldiesman, VPW well knew that most of the folks that went into the Way Corp had no money and also that most of them had families that hated them because they took PFAL and therefore were "cult" members (just a different "cult" than the rest of the family was involved in- Lutherans, Catholics, etc., those "acceptable cults") I'm not saying that the people that sponsored them came up empty as a result of their charity, for I trust they did receive back from God in good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, in one way or another. They might have been discouraged by what they later saw as a result of their kindness, but I have to trust that they got over it, as did the ones they sponsored. Hell, some of them even wrote me letters asking me to sponsor them! So I usually replied that I'd consider sponsoring them AFTER they left the Corp. I even did so on occassion but usually regretted it afterwards. For the most part they had big mouths but no ears. But that was long ago and one sees things differently at 61 than at 25- sort of a throwing out the bathwater while trying not to damage the baby. Thank God for drains in the bath tub these days!