way back in the 70s

You are all so right on. Having been a part of TWI 1 so long ago, it amazed me sometimes that almost 30 years down the road I was still so affected by my experiences. Believe me, I was a loooong-time lurker and I am sure there are plenty more like me. Initially my purpose was to track down long-lost friends, first through TranceChat, then WayDale, now here. What a relief to have a place to go to where you can say what you want, disagree when you want, hold each other up when it's needed. That's what real love and respect is all about. And yes--the truth DOES set you free. And it's a whole lot easier be set free when there is a supportive community to listen and confirm that "nope, you're not a bit crazy...we know, we were part of it too".

Yep Goey, we really don't know when we hand that buck or two out, do we ? Like I said, sometimes I do and sometimes I can't. I read a book written by a homeless guy that stayed on the road for years, just he and his dog. They survived on odd jobs and handouts. He finally settled down, got some work and education, and became a writer. His story really opened my eyes to how it must be to have to live like that. Maybe that handful of change or that bag of burgers will help someone get through the day and enable them to get one step closer to having a stable life. Hope so, anyway.

:)--> Thanks, Dot.

"Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me." Like some of you, my sons and I have had our struggles financially. Unless I hit the lottery, guess I'll always be on that razor's edge. If I am so moved to help someone, and I do so whenever I can, I realize that sometimes there may indeed be a scam in the works. I really hope not, but in the final analysis, it won't be me that will have to answer for it. I work in an office, and one day several ladies were griping about scammers, welfare, and lazy people who never worked. One woman, who had been silent, raised her head up and said that had it not been for welfare, charity, and the kindness of others, she and her siblings would have starved when they were growing up. She admitted that her parents were both deadbeats and p*ssed away money and wouldn't work if it was offered. But the children couldn't help it. They survived on what was offered to them by others. I can still hear her voice as she said this. I will never forget it. Yep--the parents may be shiftless and worthy of contempt, but what of the children ? I do not begrudge one penny of my money that goes to help a child.

;)-->Why thank you ! If we work on the details a bit, we may be able to start our own movement...perhaps even assemble a class or two--NOT ! (Oh-that's right---it's been done before, and look what happened ! )

I dunno ! --> Since I have no idea where it originated, I'll make up my own doctrine and say that redemption of this sort is available to animals closely associated/domesticated in service to humans. How's that ? Heck, I'll even take it a step further and decree that yucky things like spiders and such are the REALLY stinky people who have to work their way up to being able to bond with humans. They do their spider/moth/worm thing and move on up the ladder. Tigers and wolves and such are just one step away from domestication. Thus saith Way Back ! And I'm opening the door for any other ideas that will make this fit like a hand in a glove. Ha !

AS IF we need any more screwy beliefs---but the idea behind the following brought me a measure of comfort when we lost some beloved pets. It sounds as if this may have some Eastern origins, but I really don't know. A friend told me he'd heard of a spiritual group that believed that God sent back all the "lost souls" as animals--the souls/spirits of folks that did bad stuff, refused salvation, or just coasted through life with no thought of a higher purpose. Anyway, seems the way these animal lost souls redeem themselves is to bond with a human and learn how to receive and give love. If they succeed in this, then at the end of their animal life, they have earned the right to go on to their reward. Mission accomplished. I have NO idea who believes this or where my friend got his info, but it is interesting and a point to ponder. Who knows ???

Kit--I've known at least 2 cats that earned their wings : 1. Zaire-a little stray pregnant cat that chose to live with me.We lived in the country and word got round in the cat world that I was a sucker, so every stray seemed to end up at our door. Little Zaire raised litters that didn't belong to her. The feral cats would sometimes abandon their babies. Never fear--Zaire was there ! 2. Moo-Zaire's son and my son's cat. (So named because of his black and white "cowhide" fur) Moo stayed with my son like a puppy and had the sweetest personality ever ! Oh I am a dog lover too. Have a little rescue dog that proves love at first sight really happens. Sure, animals go to heaven ! (hope so anyway !)

The puppy given to me the year I went WONC. A little girl in the apartment complex we lived in gave her to me. She was christened Miss Chiquita Banana Carmelita Pope. She was so small that we had to attach a bell to her collar so we'd know where she was and so was also known as Chiquie, the Ding-Ding Queen.(We got elaborate with the naming thing, didn't we ?) Of course, that was "back in the day" before it was illegal to have furry friends. Chiquie stayed with me for years.

Oh I do not believe for one minute that our lives were wasted. It may sound simplistic and I do not wish to minimize any of the tragedies and sorrows endured, but we went down that road and this is where we are now. Older and wiser. Glasses off. And with a clearer understanding of what love really is and what it is not. Some people never come to that realization. Some of us learned it the hard way. (Speaking from personal experience here.) I,too, used to think the road to hell was paved with good intentions until I heard a TV preacher (gasp) make the comment that nothing could be further from the truth. "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God." The good intentions we had came from a purity of heart, OUR hearts, not from TWI, or any other church, or organization, or teaching. That counts for everything with God. We did the best we knew to do at that time. Oh indeed, mistakes were made, but our motivation was not to hurt. Our motivations sprang from that purity of heart.

Guys, I just wanted to say that I appreciate everything I've read here. What started out in my mind as a rather lighthearted discussion has really brought to light more injustices and control tactics endured by former and current TWI members. I hope those who are curious about TWI and searching for their truth read through this and other topics just to see how many people have been hurt in so many different ways. It's important for them to see it. It's NOT about loving one another and the rightly-divided truth of the Word. Among other things, it's about control, impossible standards,money and power. It's about fear and guilt and never being good enough. It's about abuse and really knowing how to hit someone where it hurts...going after their hearts and those they love and trying to make anything other than their current truth (pretty significant phrase to me) appear meaningless. Love ??? Peace of mind ??? Knowing that you know that you know ? Not anymore....maybe not ever.

Outofdafog--No sooner seen than done ! :)-->

How very very sad. And I understand, with a heavy heart, why these folks are still in. You are right, Cat. It's because of the fear. It's the number one tool of abusers everywhere. There is no fear in LOVE because perfect love casteth out fear. I seem to recall learning that long long ago... Thanks, Cat, for being so honest. Most of us were led to say, do, or think things regarding our fellow believers (and ourselves) under the guise of being obedient to leadership, and , therefore, to God. I am so glad we're out. And we need to be there for those wondering just how they can break free. (And to keep those still "in", in our thoughts. There but for the grace of God, go I.)

Oh my, Cat. And the husband still wanted to be a part of TWI after all that...We had a twig member to die as well...she had a serious heart defect from birth. Oh, how I loved my little sister in the Word...She knew she was going to die about a month before she left us and did so with great dignity, keeping those she loved (friends and family) first in her heart, never failing to tell us how much she loved us and that she would be OK--she could face this. Mind you, she didn't embrace impending death, she would have preferred to stay with us, but the only thing that could save her was not medically available at the time--until recently, there was no hope for those needing complete heart and lung transplants. At any rate, after she passed, those she loved in TWI made statements (even to her family), that she worshipped death and could have been healed but chose not to be and, as a matter of fact, her entire family was to blame because they encouraged her to die. What comfort--huh ? Living in love, indeed. I was never so grateful that I was out by that time. It was painful enough to lose her without having to hear the accusations and blame they heaped on her and her family. And there were plenty of comments about the house she lived in--the books, decor, and knick-knacks that meant so much to her. I can shrug off some things, even laugh about others, but these actions and comments I will never forget. It makes me want to weep. And it makes me want to scream out loud in the faces of those who acted so very smug in the Word (supposedly--not MY Bible, anyway) "What WERE you thinking ? Do you not realize how hurtful and HATEFUL you are ? " Once said, those comments they made can never be unsaid. They are there forever as long as there are those of us alive to remember.

Ya know, guys, I find this really sad. What seemed to be an alternative, non-denominational choice to grow spiritually and "live in love" (wasn't there a book by that title ?) has become more confining and controlling than any mainstream denomination that I am familiar with. The good manners and household hints sessions I can see coming in handy and being informative, but it became so mitilaristic and regimented. You MUST do it this way or be judged to be less-than or spiritually deficient. The torment of self-doubt that lots of people endured (and still are) negates what appealed to me initially about the ministry. By the way, was there EVER a statement made to the effect to "Check a man's tool shed and you'll know how he attends to his personal hygiene" ? And I suspect I am phrasing this much more respectfully than the refrigerator/woman pronouncement.

Well, Goey...you hit the nail on the head. I am amazed and amused by such total crap. Yes, I can laugh about it, but I also remember the anxiety brought on by these "have-tos". Of course, I didn't hang around long enough for the inspection era, but it was coming. I remember vividly a visit to our Way Home by a Corps person . We were FLAT broke and literally had nothing to eat or any disposable income to priss the place up a bit. Bless her heart...our limb leader who was head of the household somehow scraped together enough to assemble a picnic meal we served outside in our yard. (What a thrill to have sandwiches with meat and cheese !) And to help with atmosphere, I chose a classical album (being a musician, I had an eclectic selection to choose from, but I had already been told about how many rock musicians were possessed, so I decided on some works by Franz Liszt). This was the days before many albums had been released by TWI folks-I think there was one album out from Pressed Down, Shaken Together, and Running Over and one out by Good Seed, and needless to say, we could not afford to buy either. Anyway, we cleaned, welcomed our guest, played the music, and had the picnic. I was relieved that it seemed to go well. Little did I know that our leader was totally raked over the coals for EVERYTHING ! The choice of food, the sparseness of the house, and how dare we play music from a possessed person ? (It was news to me.) I was crushed --for all of us--especially her. She was the one that had to take it on the chin for that day. I do believe that was the beginning of the end for me as far as TWI. We had done our best and it was not good enough. I never did make it to the AC--I secretly thought it was insane that when someone returned, there was evil EVERYWHERE ! Control, paranoia, abuse...It may differ for some, but those seeds were sprouting even in the early to mid 70's. I didn't hang around too much longer, thank God.

Fascinating - and troubling as well. Thanks for the info...I agree that helpful, commonsense tips can come in handy---but as suggestions, not have-tos (chapter and verse, please). How sad, Hope R, that poor fellow that tried so hard...but I pray he realizes now that "All things work to the good..." How many loving churches /groups/charities would have jumped at the chance to welcome the guy. I'd like to think he's found his place and some peace of mind like many of us. (Still working on that, guess I always will be a "work in progress". But GUESS WHAT ??? I DO hang my tp properly. But anyone that comes to visit can forget about the folding part---and hope they're on good terms with dust bunnies. We coexist quite peacefully here!)

Ya know, WordWolf, having read some of these documents, I concluded a while back that lcm had serious unresolved issues with us females. There was an undercurrent of us being "less than" long ago and it just got worse, evidently. Translated itself into the ridiculous rules of housekeeping (among other things) I suppose. As Gladtobeout said, it was just another way to prove you fell short, didn't measure up. That struck a chord with me. By the way, just curious, what IS the correct way to hang toilet paper and fold a t-shirt ? And who the heck appointed themselves the experts to decide these things ?

OK---now, help me out pah-leeeeze ! Just how in the name of gawd can the connection be made between a fridge top and my bottom ??? (By the way, there's a small layer of dust on my refrigerator top--I just checked--ha !) Thanks for the info, but I don't understand. And Bramble, I would doodle all the live-long day now and tape every flippin' one of em up on the walls !!!!

...which brings to mind when I went WONC (again, in the 70's) and we "decorated" our sparse apartment with hand-done posters of Bible verses. I was told to remove one of them because the curls on the border resembled something "devilish" when viewed from a certain angle in a certain light. I was crushed, but immediately took it down. I was secretly tormented that unknowingly I was channeling you-know-whats through my magic marker "Love One Another" poster. Sad, ain't it ?

OK, all...I had to pluck up my courage to start a discussion, but I am really curious about comments regarding house inspections, the "right way" to fold t-shirts, clean vents behind sofas, etc etc. I admit I am rather casual about my home--we LIVE in every room and it is comfortably clean, but yes, you may see crumbs on the counter from time to time, it is a constant battle to get my son to empty the trash, and (gasp) even as I write this, there are TWO unwashed glasses in the sink. I recall a comment long ago that the reason a person got sick was "obvious"--a Rolling Stone magazine was spotted in the house...and some nonsense about checking the cleanliness of the top of the refrigerator ??? I do not wish to cause any pain or embarrassment by asking, but what gives ? Have I been doing it all wrong all these years ????? SHEESH !

Amen...and Amen. There are some very wise and healing words in this thread. Take heed. The truth should NEVER be discounted or hidden or forgotten. That is the only way abusers can be brought to light. The abusers can be ministers, grandfathers, aunts or uncles, folks you think you know, priests, or members "in good standing" in TWI. And just as society is now publically screaming in its outrage over abusers in the Catholic church (and rightfully so), any person, organization or group that has turned a blind eye and deaf ear to those who have been so horribly wronged is as guilty in the coverup as if they themselves had committed the crimes.

Beyond words it is sad. As a family, we did not find out about the abuse until my beloved niece began acting out (at the age of 21) in such a manner that she lost everything she had-her home, her husband, and her child. I wonder how she held on for 15 plus years before it all came to the surface. Having been through a similar situation to yours myself, someone who had never experienced it made the statement to me that the attackers could not take from me who I was...and even though it was said with love to me I had to respond that in a sense they did. A part of me was stolen and crushed and I would never ever be the same. Bruises heal, but crimes like these leave their mark as long as we are alive. Most of us learn to go on and become stronger, but the way is long and lonely at times. Good thing I'm not God---there would be a special place in hell for those guilty of such crimes. My forgiveness DOES have boundaries and I freely and unashamedly admit it.

Cool Waters, Mo, Cat, Dot: (and all of my brothers and sisters that endured such pain): My heart is truly with you all. Indeed, sometimes it seems easy to suggest or tell someone how they "should" deal with such trauma. Each of us finds our own road to healing in very unique ways and on varied timetables. I can only imagine how much you have endured. Having had a case of child molestation in my family, I can say that I have not, nor can I conceive of losing one bit of sleep over my disgust and revulsion toward the offender. Do I care what happens to him ? Not one bit. Do I feel sorry for him now that he is wheelchair bound and disabled ? Not for a second. However, what does cause me pain to this day is the memory that an unthinkable crime was taking place under our very noses. Two precious children had their innocence crushed and their lives altered forever by what took place...and all the love in the world cannot ever change what happened to them. Will I "come to terms" with this ? Perhaps...but I do not know. I can say that if my feelings toward this man are wrong, and if I stand before God Himself, I will admit to such feelings with no apology. Do I consider myself a victim because I will not "let go" of what happened ? Nope. As was said before, I will attempt to channel the anger and bitterness to do what I can so it doesn't happen again. To tap into those feelings and acknowledge them does give me a sense of power. Perhaps I can help someone else, give them a shoulder to lean on, and do what I can to see such abusers come to justice. It's all I can do. May you find some peace of mind in your own way and in your own time.

Just a thought--If the tree is diseased, the fruit it bears (if any) will be so too. The sickness started long ago, continued, and is still there. I think of the "super-viruses" prevalent today. They may lie dormant for a while and appear to be defeated by "new and improved" treatments, only to morph and return to wreak havoc and destruction.