way back in the 70s

Wow, learning ! "Human understanding does not come from a closed environment." That statement is indeed profound. I might add that neither does an understanding of God and His Word. I applaud those of you who had the confidence and courage to teach "outside the box".

I'd like to add/clarify on my comment please... I was totally in awe of the teachings I heard before I led a twig. I'd sit there flabbergasted that these folks had worked all this stuff. I honestly thought they came up with it totally on their own, using only the principles of PFAL, a KJV Bible, and concordance and possibly with a little help from a Greek/Aramaic dictionary. Some (just some) of them may have been. This was before the days when tapes were constantly used--once in a while we'd get a copy of a teaching tape and wear it out. I was intimidated and felt totally inadequate to lead a twig...didn't see how I could possibly be smart enough to put together a coherent, intelligent teaching that would bless our little group and hopefully answer some needs. As tapes, mags, etc. became more readily available, I saw then how things were recycled and passed around over and over again (sometimes verbatim). It was then I relaxed more about it, knowing that I could draw on those teachings and not steer my twig wrong. Didn't trust myself one bit. Guess in a way it sounds like I was lazy, but in reality, I was scared to death, thinking I would teach something that was "off the Word" and cause some catastrophe to befall those I loved so much. If I taught from what others had already done, I automatically assumed they were smarter and much more "in tune" with what God wanted, and, therefore, I would do no harm. Sheesh---pathetic, I know, but that's as honest as I can be about it.

I remember when I led my first twig that I was really nervous about "working and researching the Word" to come up with a teaching. It didn't take long for me to figure out that original research wasn't necessary at all. Just rehash a tape teaching or an article in the mag...teachings were a snap ! And I wasn't the only one. To be honest, I cannot recall hearing one teaching that was based on research done solely by the teacher...at the twig, branch, or limb level. You could always find a tape or article that was done by someone else before. And now I know that even the times I heard VP that the teachings were also "recycled".

How kind of you, Trefor ! I had heard that these kids depend on the church to feed them, buy their groceries, etc. And generally, around here, it seems they're pretty well taken care of. Bet they get homesick, though. Interesting religion, isn't it ?

OK, I'll fess up. I have found myself wanting to see this one again (after 30 years). Like the other classes, seminars,advances I attended, I'd like to see how they play out now to me. But that's just my personality--I'm the type of person that has several favorite books that I reread every few years. As I have changed, it's amazing how different things in the books become apparent to me that I didn't notice before. And parts that seemed so profound now seem downright silly. I swallowed the spill of those classes hook, line, and sinker back then, but this is now. Those were my "fog years". So...from a curiousity standpoint, yep, I'd like to see em...glasses off.

How awful for those kids , Refiner! Like I said before , I remember all too well what it's like to be on the other side of that door doing what you think is God's will. A smile and a kind word (even in refusal) doesn't take a huge chunk out of my time. Intrusive and irritating ? Sometimes, yes, but I've done the same thing to folks myself. Trefor, I had an offer from two cute lil Mormons to do some work around the house for me , and while it was tempting, I know me...I would have felt like I had to go to a few meetings or something to even the score--hah ! So..my general rule is "just say no" !

Like some of you, I remember with a shudder the times we were doing the door to door thing. It was a relief when someone was kind, even when they were not interested. I try to remember that, offer them a glass of ice water or coffee, but make it clear I am not interested in their beliefs. Usually they refuse the refreshment, but that's fine. I told the last group of JWs that IF there was a God (and I chose to believe there is), then He is bigger than any one denomination or group. There are many roads to the mountaintop, admittedly, some are more direct, but my road was a different one from theirs. It worked with the Mormons as well for some reason. Heck, those Mormons are just kids and who knows what wackos and meanies they encounter ?

In 70s terms, I "tripped out" because I was "off the Word". Then, I was "no longer standing". "Off the Word" also applied to any secular books, movies, or songs that were "natural man" based. What a long strange trip it's been !

ROFL WordWolf :D--> Loved John, but ooohhh that Yoko ! And Trefor and all you other long time ago'ers, it was that way for us too, and thus, part of the appeal for me. We had "open house" in the Way home where I lived, and while we had posters up on the wall with verses on them, anybody could come hang out, play ping pong (yep, we did), talk, listen to non-ministry music...whatever-without being recruited. And it was not a plan to nab em into a class. All kinds of folks came--all races, walks of life, economic backgrounds, etc. IF they showed interest, we followed through. Same went for going out with folks we worked with, went to school with, etc. It was not at all forced or pressured. But that was then--before TWI started acting like Amway salesman. Or maybe we all had it "wrong" from TWIs standpoint from the beginning, they found out, and set out to put a stop to all our nonsense. That's when this ole gal beat a trail...

What wise words indeed, Shaz. Most of us do need the support and approval of those we look up to...be it in our family, our work situation, or groups we are involved in. The validation we get from a pat on the back or an "atta-boy/girl" makes us feel we matter. TWI exploited that, often in reverse. Negative reinforcement replaced positive in many cases. Seems to me most of us would knock ourselves out to gain the approval of local leadership, who were operating under the guise of staying in fellowship with the Big Guy. Leadership, of course, was doing the same thing to garner the favor of the BOD. They had a nice little setup going there...for a while anyway. I got out, thank God, before the worst of it broke loose. Fear is a great motivator and control tactic... it works for a time, anyway. But I choose to believe that "There is no fear in love, but perfect love casteth out fear"...Too bad they forgot that, or chose to ignore it. Glad we didn't.

Refiner- VERY interesting parallels. As a matter of fact, my son is involved with a "disfellowshipped" JW and she is sadly knocking herself out to "prove herself worthy" of being accepted back. I find it very sad. I left twi early on for the escalating control tactics, for one thing. I am finding my experience with twi helps me to understand my son's girlfriend and her situation. I do not try to talk her out of anything, but there have been some times we are able to discuss some issues. It's almost eerie that I can see the hold they have on her due to my involvement with twi. Thanks for your input.

Lots of thought provoking stuff here. As a once Jesus-Freak-Hippie-Flower Child, I must admit, that yes, to an extent, our youth and lack of life experience were exploited. But I also wonder about when the power plays actually began. Oh, believe me, even way back then there were signs of what was to become much more blatant and abusive. Perhaps our inexperience allowed it, but then again, we were not totally blind. We were a generation that questioned established authority the likes of which had not been seen in a long time. We were free thinkers and dreamers. Perhaps it was those very characteristics that led to the increasing power plays and control methods. Perhaps the powers that "were" thought they had free run by exploiting our youthful inexperience, but found out quickly that we could not easily be contained, and thus began tightening the reins more and more and more. Glad I got out before they put the bit in my mouth. Others were not so lucky.

Are there any surviving copies of the ROA72 movie ? There are several folks that were in our local twig that "made the cut" and I am curious, after all these years, to see it again. Mostly, I'd like to see the faces of those people (we had some real characters in our group-ha !). I am also intrigued as to how the film would play out to me now. There is lots of water under the ole bridge and I'd be seeing it minus those rose-tinted glasses I once wore. Just wondering....

"Beam me up, Scotty..."

Did this just post TWICE ???? SPOOOOOKY ! Sorry if it did...

Ozzy is a HOOT ! And anyone that has a lick of sense can tell that his so-called "evilness" is a PR ploy--whatever sells...If anyone saw the episode of the Osbournes when Sharon arranged for the big concert finale to include bubbles (a la Welk) coming from the stage...Ozzy's comment : BUBBLES ?? Jeez Sharon, I'm the friggin' prince of darkness ! BUBBLES ? Needless to say, the bubbles stayed...HA ! When my son went to OzzFest a couple of years ago, he said Ozzy ruled the night. (A shock to him because he said he was so "old". -->) My son was concerned about Marilyn Manson and I told him MM laughs all the way to the bank. He is a performer, not a way of life, and to view it as such and nothing more. Those poor folks caught up in the fantasy just feed that big ole bank vault he has. Shock value, nothing more. And speaking of spooky myths, anyone recall the one with Rosemary's Baby/ Manson family/ Roman Polanski and Sharon Tate ? I recall being told that the movie was in fact reflecting the truth that Tate WAS carrying the spawn of Satan when she was so brutally murdered and Manson and co. were commissioned by Ole Scratch to get rid of it because TWI had thwarted his plans for some sort of world-takeover or somesuch. My oh my...

Well I guess so !!! Not to sound harsh or unfeeling, but perhaps it was similar to what an AA person said to me years ago in reference to a family member's alcoholism. He said that all alcoholics are healed of the disease. Unfortunately, some of them have to die in order to be released from it. I was horrified when I was told this. After all, we were discussing someone I loved. Later I came to see the truth of the statement. Perhaps this unfortunate person at ROA was indeed "freed" of AIDS, but not because LCM's pronouncement made it so. I do hold the hope that miracles can happen, but certainly a healing from this dreadful disease would have been shouted from the mountaintops.

Tom and alfa: Blind Faith was after Cream, and I'm not even sure what song was referenced when the comment was made to me. Now I know that EC went through major drug dependency battles and I am assuming some of his music reflected the spiritual strength he had to draw on to fight those battles. But I have serious doubts about PFAL or TWI influencing him...

To slightly change directions (and offer a flip side to the Wrong Seed thread), we were told in the 70's that Eric Clapton and Carlos Santana were born again due to the witness of TWI believers. I even recall something about EC's lyrics in a song referring to SIT, so it was deduced he was a PFAL grad. Hmmmmm... -->

AS IF Ian and Co would get on the stage at ROA ! Wonder if they would have played their set before or after LCM's spite/spitfests ? -->

Wonder if Tull's Ian Anderson had heard of TWI ? Seems to me he wrote a song about it once : "People what have you done ? You locked Him in a golden cage. Made Him bend to your religion"... ("My God") Pretty seedy, huh ? Sounds right on to me. As well as Ian being a musical genius, I always felt Tull was very spiritual (in all the right ways), but what did I know ??? HA !

Read it a while back and I've heard it is a required book in some college sociology classes. It should really be an eye-opener for those that have forgotten (or have never had to worry) about having ten bucks in your pocket and how are you gonna buy gas and groceries and pay rent and never mind that tooth that needs to be filled or the bald tires on your car. I found the author to be a bit condescending in places...after all, this was her "pretend" life and a research project for her writing, but interesting and informative to those who have not had to make every dollar scream just to stay alive. Makes me reconsider Wally World, for sure. Worth the read !

Oh, my friend, how often I have felt the same way ! Sometimes God SEEMS silent because of all the things going on in our heads...tough to turn it off, isn't it ? When you've got eighty billion things to ponder, it's not easy to be still and know that God is there...especially if you're "the responsible one". Guess that's what we need to try to do...like MO said. Those were indeed wise and loving words.

Details, details, details ! Haven't gotten any further than the Concert and Sunday Teaching Service page and the musical notes on the banner at the top are BACKWARDS ! Irks me to no end to see that ! There, I feel better now...

As a mother who loves her sons dearly, I rue the day I ever laid a hand (or a spoon or whatever) on either of them in order to "get their attention" or correct them. I do not always know the answer, the solution varies with each child and each circumstance, but hitting and physical aggression is NEVER the answer. Think about it---if it really worked, there would be no need to whack, pop, or smack over and over again. And the thing about not hitting a child in anger ? What a copout ! Most instances of punishment to a child are carried out when the "enforcer" is angry, frustrated, or embarrassed.