One can speak in tongues and still not believe that it is what TWI said it was, or even what other Christians say it is. Speaking in tongues is practiced by non-Christians, usually, but not exclusively, as a sign of religious ecstasy. I can easily imagine that speaking nonsence syllables would lull one to sleep.
As far as speaking in tongues = rest to the soul, here's the verses:
Isa 28:12 & 13: For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is] the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
"stammering" = le'eg, can be translated barbarous or foreign which some say refers to the foreign tongue of the Assyrians.
Exactly Garth. For me it is not a religious or spiritual thing in the sense it was in TWI. As I said previously, it is like meditation, a clearing of the mind of all the thoughts, worries, etc. of the day.
Allan, it really makes no difference to me if it makes sense to you or not. There are probably many aspects of what I believe, which may be contradictory if thought through logically. That's okay, I'm still learning and as I learn some of those contradictions will work themselves out, others may not. I am a student, not a master and I hope I never stop learning and studying.
As for being born again, I already said earlier that I believe anyone, Christian or not, can be born again. I just define that term a little differently than you do.
There are probably many aspects of what I believe, which may be contradictory if thought through logically. That's okay, I'm still learning and as I learn some of those contradictions will work themselves out, others may not. I am a student, not a master and I hope I never stop learning and studying.
Well said.
In many religious traditions, accepting the (seemingly) contradictory and the paradoxical is part of enlightenment. This is difficulty for the modern western mind, trained to look for linear, "rational", fits-like-a-hand-in-a-glove theology/cosmology.
And yet there are those of us who believe exactly in who Jesus was/is and the words/revelation he gave.
i.e. "strait is the gate and narrow is the way that leads to life", "I am the way,the truth and the life." "No man cometh to the Father but by me" etc...etc.. Like V.P. said..."Jesus either meant what he said or he lied".
To me those examples of statements made by Jesus are neither paradoxical, lyrical, or hypothetical.
They are an actual reality, to me.!! I am at peace about them, I don't need to analyze them to death nor look for a 'deep' spiritual meaning to them. I accept them as they are, the Words of God, and one day we find out how precisely how right they were or how wrong we were in our 'interpretation' of them.
I've been doing some research. Regarding your quotes - I will get back to you with further details as I have time, but you will find the context of the "straight is the way" verse to include the "golden rule" as well.
So you may find this interesting:
"You shall have no other gods before Me," is the essence of all 613 commandments and prohibitions of the Torah. On the other hand, the Talmud tells the famous story of the great sage Hillel, who told a man who asked to be taught the entire Torah while standing on one foot: "What is hateful to yourself, do not do to your fellow. This is the entire Torah--the rest is commentary."
and this as well:
"Most of what is known of Paul comes from his own writings and from the Acts of the Apostles . . . He was born Saul in the town of Tarsus in what is now southern Turkey, probably in about A.D. 10. Educated in Jerusalem "at the feet of Gamaliel," grandson of the great Jewish sage Hillel, he joined the Pharisees, a party of strict constructionists of the Judaic laws."
And Hillel learned it from the Torah - which is where Jesus learned it as well.
There is one God, the rest are fiction, being only because they are worshippped.
"You shall have no other gods before Me,"
Jeremiah 16:19-21 (King James Version)
19O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit.
20Shall a man make gods unto himself, and they are no gods?
21Therefore, behold, I will this once cause them to know, I will cause them to know mine hand and my might; and they shall know that my name is The LORD.
1 John 5
7For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
And yet Abi, what did Paul say of all his religious learning and training ? He counted IT AS DUNG, so that he could 'win' Christ. The word 'win' is to gain (completely for oneself).
well...i don't know allan, what did Paul say about his religous training and learning? Did heeven label it religous training and learning? What was it he called dung?
6Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
7But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
8Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
9And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
10That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
12Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
hmmmm....don't see religous learning and training specifyed.....as dung
And yet Abi, what did Paul say of all his religious learning and training ? He counted IT AS DUNG, so that he could 'win' Christ. The word 'win' is to gain (completely for oneself).
Where do you get the "completely for oneself" part?
Boy all of this is getting tough to keep up with, as I no longer have concordances and stuff. But it is good to study and think this stuff through again - it has been a while.
I will work my way backards I think . . . .
As Dancing pointed out, what was counted as dung was the "gain" for himself, which he ultimately "lost". When one looks at who Paul was (a pharasse) and the era he lived in, these verses take on a more in depth meaning. Paul was very zealous for the law, but the law for law's sake IS worthless - with or without Jesus as a messiah. It is a trap many fell into then (the legalism) and still fall into today, including Christians. Jesus taught what Hillel taugh, which is what Moses also taught - the golden rule. Paul had lost sight of that and was legalistically performing the law for law's sake, without any heart or understanding behind it. What he gained from that legalistic practice, and ultimately lost, is what was counted dung.
People who are unfamiliar with Judaism often have this mind picture of a very legalistic and rigid practice of rules and rituals; kosher home, no electricity from sun down Friday to sun down Saturday, separate dishes for different foods, etc. Certainly there are some who practice that way. But there are many who are not so legalistic and rigid.
Paul counted those things as loss for Christ, why? Because Jesus DID teach a better way. He went right back to the heart of the Torah, do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Forgive others, because we have all sinned.
Heck, even the chapter you quoted from Matthew covers that, "judge not or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged . . . "
Now, for the verses you quoted earlier . . .
"small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it . . . ."
What precedes this section is that if you ask God to give good gifts, He will, and then "do unto others as you would have them do to you, for this sums up the law and the Prophets (again, taught by Moses first and also Hillel).
What follows that section is information on false prophets in sheep's clothing. It goes on to say we will know them by their fruit. He then goes on to describe those who propesy, drive out demons, and perform miracles in Jesus' name, and yet Jesus says he never knew them and calls them evil doers.
In other words, there are many out there who will claim to be followers of Jesus, who are false prophets and will lead people astray from the narrow road that leads to life.
Finally, "no man cometh by the father but by me", well yeah, I agree with that. Jesus taught and lived an example of what is taught in the Torah and Kabbalah. That is not to say one must be Jewish to have access to God. There are many people of many faiths who live their lives very much in accordance with those things, regardless of what religious label they place upon themselves or even if they place none at all.
I believe that one of the number of things Paul counted 'as dung' was the application and relevancy of the O.T. once the fulness of what happened on Pentecost hit him. If even by the mere fact that he never went back to the laws and the fables that he had grown up with. New times, new light.
And yes, Jesus did say NO man COMETH to the Father but by way of him. To me, that means that there is NO OTHER SUBSTITUTE for Jesus to gain access to GOD (in this day and time)
I believe that one of the number of things Paul counted 'as dung' was the application and relevancy of the O.T. once the fulness of what happened on Pentecost hit him. If even by the mere fact that he never went back to the laws and the fables that he had grown up with. New times, new light.
With the coming of the greater, the lesser disappears. The writer unfortunately is unaware of 'simple' principles like this that helps to 'rightly divide' the word.
All scripture written aforetime is written for our learning etc..etc..
The sacrifice of bulls and goats was superseded etc.. etc..etc...etc...etc...etc...etc...etc...etc...
Since we are talking interfaith here, or supposed to be
this
The believer is free from the old law of weakness, failure, and defeat, for he is now covered by the spiritual law of life in Christ Jesus. The old law had dominion over us, but now "sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace" (Romans 6:14). The new "law of the Spirit of life" is stronger than the old "law of sin and death." With the coming of the greater the lesser terminates. For example, if I drop the pen I am holding, it will fall to the ground because of the law of gravity. But if I place my other hand under the pen as it drops, the law of power and strength in my hand will make the law of gravity ineffective and the pen will no longer fall to the ground. The moment we believed Romans 10:9, the old law of failure and defeat became ineffective because of the strength of the new law of spiritual life in Christ Jesus.
I disagree with Peter Wade on this one. When he drops the pen with his other hand under it, the law of gravity still applies. The pen does not hit the floor simply because he caught it with his other hand. However, gravity STILL caused the pen to fall and therefore still exists.
Likewise, when Rom 6:14 is read in context, the idea is that death and sin no longer have "mastery" over Jesus , because he has died and been raised from the dead (verses 8 - 10).
Paul then goes on to write that we should also "count" [consider] ourselves dead to sin but alive to God. (verse 11) Notice this is a figure of speach. We are to "count" ourselves dead to sin because we are not literally dead to sin.
He then writes that we should not allow sin to reign in our mortal body, nor offer our body to sin but rather offer ourselves to God.
Then he states "we are not under the law but under grace"
THEN he goes on to refer to us as slaves to righteousness and slaves to God. Ironically, he quotes the very law he claims we are no longer under, to further explain how we are to offer ourselves to God.
He also acknowledges that the law is spiritual.
Still in the same context, but in chapter 8, Paul writes about those who live according to sinful nature and those who live according to the spirit. He states that the sinful mind is hostile to God and does NOT submit to God's Law. [Thereby implying that God's law does, in fact, still existence].
To a large degree, this entire section is about heart and intent. Performing the law, the tithe, or any ritual begrudingly is not what God desires. God desires a cheerful giver, right? Why would anyone think that cheerful giving would only apply to the giving of money?
Does God benefit if I light the shabbot candles on Friday night, or do I? Do I truly benefit if I only light those candles because I HAVE to, or out of fear of negative consequences for failing to light them, and not because I desire to?
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Oakspear
One can speak in tongues and still not believe that it is what TWI said it was, or even what other Christians say it is. Speaking in tongues is practiced by non-Christians, usually, but not exclusively, as a sign of religious ecstasy. I can easily imagine that speaking nonsence syllables would lull one to sleep.
As far as speaking in tongues = rest to the soul, here's the verses:
Isa 28:12 & 13: For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is] the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
"stammering" = le'eg, can be translated barbarous or foreign which some say refers to the foreign tongue of the Assyrians.
"lips" = generally refers to a langauge.
Read the whole context
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Abigail
Exactly Garth. For me it is not a religious or spiritual thing in the sense it was in TWI. As I said previously, it is like meditation, a clearing of the mind of all the thoughts, worries, etc. of the day.
Allan, it really makes no difference to me if it makes sense to you or not. There are probably many aspects of what I believe, which may be contradictory if thought through logically. That's okay, I'm still learning and as I learn some of those contradictions will work themselves out, others may not. I am a student, not a master and I hope I never stop learning and studying.
As for being born again, I already said earlier that I believe anyone, Christian or not, can be born again. I just define that term a little differently than you do.
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Oakspear
In many religious traditions, accepting the (seemingly) contradictory and the paradoxical is part of enlightenment. This is difficulty for the modern western mind, trained to look for linear, "rational", fits-like-a-hand-in-a-glove theology/cosmology.
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allan w.
And yet there are those of us who believe exactly in who Jesus was/is and the words/revelation he gave.
i.e. "strait is the gate and narrow is the way that leads to life", "I am the way,the truth and the life." "No man cometh to the Father but by me" etc...etc.. Like V.P. said..."Jesus either meant what he said or he lied".
To me those examples of statements made by Jesus are neither paradoxical, lyrical, or hypothetical.
They are an actual reality, to me.!! I am at peace about them, I don't need to analyze them to death nor look for a 'deep' spiritual meaning to them. I accept them as they are, the Words of God, and one day we find out how precisely how right they were or how wrong we were in our 'interpretation' of them.
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Abigail
Allan,
I've been doing some research. Regarding your quotes - I will get back to you with further details as I have time, but you will find the context of the "straight is the way" verse to include the "golden rule" as well.
So you may find this interesting:
"You shall have no other gods before Me," is the essence of all 613 commandments and prohibitions of the Torah. On the other hand, the Talmud tells the famous story of the great sage Hillel, who told a man who asked to be taught the entire Torah while standing on one foot: "What is hateful to yourself, do not do to your fellow. This is the entire Torah--the rest is commentary."
and this as well:
"Most of what is known of Paul comes from his own writings and from the Acts of the Apostles . . . He was born Saul in the town of Tarsus in what is now southern Turkey, probably in about A.D. 10. Educated in Jerusalem "at the feet of Gamaliel," grandson of the great Jewish sage Hillel, he joined the Pharisees, a party of strict constructionists of the Judaic laws."
And Hillel learned it from the Torah - which is where Jesus learned it as well.
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dancing
So many wise and yet knowing the truth.
There is one God, the rest are fiction, being only because they are worshippped.
"You shall have no other gods before Me,"
Jeremiah 16:19-21 (King James Version)
19O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit.
20Shall a man make gods unto himself, and they are no gods?
21Therefore, behold, I will this once cause them to know, I will cause them to know mine hand and my might; and they shall know that my name is The LORD.
1 John 5
7For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
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allan w.
And yet Abi, what did Paul say of all his religious learning and training ? He counted IT AS DUNG, so that he could 'win' Christ. The word 'win' is to gain (completely for oneself).
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dancing
well...i don't know allan, what did Paul say about his religous training and learning? Did heeven label it religous training and learning? What was it he called dung?
6Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
7But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
8Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
9And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
10That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
12Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
hmmmm....don't see religous learning and training specifyed.....as dung
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Oakspear
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Abigail
Boy all of this is getting tough to keep up with, as I no longer have concordances and stuff. But it is good to study and think this stuff through again - it has been a while.
I will work my way backards I think . . . .
As Dancing pointed out, what was counted as dung was the "gain" for himself, which he ultimately "lost". When one looks at who Paul was (a pharasse) and the era he lived in, these verses take on a more in depth meaning. Paul was very zealous for the law, but the law for law's sake IS worthless - with or without Jesus as a messiah. It is a trap many fell into then (the legalism) and still fall into today, including Christians. Jesus taught what Hillel taugh, which is what Moses also taught - the golden rule. Paul had lost sight of that and was legalistically performing the law for law's sake, without any heart or understanding behind it. What he gained from that legalistic practice, and ultimately lost, is what was counted dung.
People who are unfamiliar with Judaism often have this mind picture of a very legalistic and rigid practice of rules and rituals; kosher home, no electricity from sun down Friday to sun down Saturday, separate dishes for different foods, etc. Certainly there are some who practice that way. But there are many who are not so legalistic and rigid.
Paul counted those things as loss for Christ, why? Because Jesus DID teach a better way. He went right back to the heart of the Torah, do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Forgive others, because we have all sinned.
Heck, even the chapter you quoted from Matthew covers that, "judge not or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged . . . "
Now, for the verses you quoted earlier . . .
"small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it . . . ."
What precedes this section is that if you ask God to give good gifts, He will, and then "do unto others as you would have them do to you, for this sums up the law and the Prophets (again, taught by Moses first and also Hillel).
What follows that section is information on false prophets in sheep's clothing. It goes on to say we will know them by their fruit. He then goes on to describe those who propesy, drive out demons, and perform miracles in Jesus' name, and yet Jesus says he never knew them and calls them evil doers.
In other words, there are many out there who will claim to be followers of Jesus, who are false prophets and will lead people astray from the narrow road that leads to life.
Finally, "no man cometh by the father but by me", well yeah, I agree with that. Jesus taught and lived an example of what is taught in the Torah and Kabbalah. That is not to say one must be Jewish to have access to God. There are many people of many faiths who live their lives very much in accordance with those things, regardless of what religious label they place upon themselves or even if they place none at all.
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dancing
yeah all I use is the computer bibles anymore.
I figured whatever sticks that is good ain't goin anywhere anyway.
Shoot all that study study study, drive a person nuts.
Either God loves and is with me or not.
Counting all things dung is loving God more then our selves.
Which means we get that back too, loving ourselves.
Much grace and peace and love to you and yours Abigail,
Clay
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allan w.
I believe that one of the number of things Paul counted 'as dung' was the application and relevancy of the O.T. once the fulness of what happened on Pentecost hit him. If even by the mere fact that he never went back to the laws and the fables that he had grown up with. New times, new light.
And yes, Jesus did say NO man COMETH to the Father but by way of him. To me, that means that there is NO OTHER SUBSTITUTE for Jesus to gain access to GOD (in this day and time)
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dancing
How do ya figure that?
I won't speak for Paul but,
For me, it has a bunch of good stuff in it.
A lot of new light.
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dancing
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dancing
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allan w.
With the coming of the greater, the lesser disappears. The writer unfortunately is unaware of 'simple' principles like this that helps to 'rightly divide' the word.
All scripture written aforetime is written for our learning etc..etc..
The sacrifice of bulls and goats was superseded etc.. etc..etc...etc...etc...etc...etc...etc...etc...
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dancing
You know I never really saw that in the bible.
I do see a lot that says different though.
Maybe I'll start a thread on it.
The coming of the greater....
hmmmm....was there a lesser?
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allan w.
sure there was...
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dancing
nevermind....
you can start the thread allan
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dancing
hmmm maybe this is what you are talking about allan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covenant_of_B...u'll%C3%A1h
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dancing
Since we are talking interfaith here, or supposed to be
this
The believer is free from the old law of weakness, failure, and defeat, for he is now covered by the spiritual law of life in Christ Jesus. The old law had dominion over us, but now "sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace" (Romans 6:14). The new "law of the Spirit of life" is stronger than the old "law of sin and death." With the coming of the greater the lesser terminates. For example, if I drop the pen I am holding, it will fall to the ground because of the law of gravity. But if I place my other hand under the pen as it drops, the law of power and strength in my hand will make the law of gravity ineffective and the pen will no longer fall to the ground. The moment we believed Romans 10:9, the old law of failure and defeat became ineffective because of the strength of the new law of spiritual life in Christ Jesus.
from
http://peterwade.com/articles/wade/condemn.shtml
Are you spiritual allan?
I think this by Peter Wade was happening throughout history.
And not quite in his words.
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Abigail
I disagree with Peter Wade on this one. When he drops the pen with his other hand under it, the law of gravity still applies. The pen does not hit the floor simply because he caught it with his other hand. However, gravity STILL caused the pen to fall and therefore still exists.
Likewise, when Rom 6:14 is read in context, the idea is that death and sin no longer have "mastery" over Jesus , because he has died and been raised from the dead (verses 8 - 10).
Paul then goes on to write that we should also "count" [consider] ourselves dead to sin but alive to God. (verse 11) Notice this is a figure of speach. We are to "count" ourselves dead to sin because we are not literally dead to sin.
He then writes that we should not allow sin to reign in our mortal body, nor offer our body to sin but rather offer ourselves to God.
Then he states "we are not under the law but under grace"
THEN he goes on to refer to us as slaves to righteousness and slaves to God. Ironically, he quotes the very law he claims we are no longer under, to further explain how we are to offer ourselves to God.
He also acknowledges that the law is spiritual.
Still in the same context, but in chapter 8, Paul writes about those who live according to sinful nature and those who live according to the spirit. He states that the sinful mind is hostile to God and does NOT submit to God's Law. [Thereby implying that God's law does, in fact, still existence].
To a large degree, this entire section is about heart and intent. Performing the law, the tithe, or any ritual begrudingly is not what God desires. God desires a cheerful giver, right? Why would anyone think that cheerful giving would only apply to the giving of money?
Does God benefit if I light the shabbot candles on Friday night, or do I? Do I truly benefit if I only light those candles because I HAVE to, or out of fear of negative consequences for failing to light them, and not because I desire to?
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dancing
Great points and ideas Abigail!
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dancing
If we think of dead to sin as spiritual, then yes it's true and "literal" as in literally spiritual.
But in the flesh it's a different deal. Although all wrongs are not sin.
Just a couple of half thoughts and hey! A new catch phrase to burn "literally spiritual"
:):):)
2muchfun
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