With the coming of the greater, the lesser disappears. The writer unfortunately is unaware of 'simple' principles like this that helps to 'rightly divide' the word.
All scripture written aforetime is written for our learning etc..etc..
The sacrifice of bulls and goats was superseded etc.. etc..etc...etc...etc...etc...etc...etc...etc...
"For our learning " This comes from Romans 15:4 and VPW's interpretation of it represents one of his bigger theological blunders.
Rom 15:4For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope. ( KJV)
"Learning" is from the Greek word - didaskalian. This is the same Greek word that is translated "DOCTRINE" all throughout the New Testament. So this verse could just as well be translated "for our doctrine".
I guess VP missed that - or he conviently ignored it. Regardless, it blows gaping hole in VPW's teaching that the OT does not "apply" now and is is only "for our learning".
VPW made a sharp distinction between doctrine and learning, whereas the scriptures do not. Didaskalia, is what is taught, or instruction as it is translated in many other versions.
Well, I guess if people want to keep the 'sabbath day' holy, continue blood sacrifices, stone unruly children,
give wave offerings, send goats off into the wilderness carrying their sins, etc.. that's up to them.
I tend to believe these were the doctrines 'aforetime' witten for our 'learning, teaching, doctrine' to 'appreciate' the differn'ce between THEN and NOW (in other words, we are to 'teach' (didaskalia, Romans 12: 7) the differn'ce between the old and the new, the law and the grace, the judgement and the mercy, the greater and the lesser.)
Thanks, Bramble. I am glad the subject interests you. I think, in part because of our culture, that there is a lot that is misunderstood about Judaism.
And like Christianity, there is a large amount of diversity in belief and practice among Jewish people. However, we do have certain things that bond us together as well. For example, when lighting the candles on Shabbot, I am reminded that people all over the world are also lighting their candles - that despite our differences there is a unity and connection among all of us. I believe that bond exists among all people, not just Jews. It is good to be reminded that we all have some things in common, that we are all truly connected in some fashion. It reminds me to take time to see past the differences, disagreements, etc.
In TWI ritual was denigrated--even though TWI used very structured rituals( HF, communion). Since then I have found ritual rich in symbology and healing and can't imagine trying to live a spirituality which tries to erase it as a form of expression.
We try too hard sometimes but we must seek which requires a few moves on our part. That is what unlocks many things we already have. They had it throughout history. And the moves we make will come to mind from within, a letting of those things that are be. Cause nothing really changes but our perception.
Seeing they cannot see. Another words things are seen but not understood.
A real game of making the right moves in the mind to see the moving of what's in the mind.
With the coming of the greater, the lesser disappears. The writer unfortunately is unaware of 'simple' principles like this that helps to 'rightly divide' the word.
All scripture written aforetime is written for our learning etc..etc..
The sacrifice of bulls and goats was superseded etc.. etc..etc...etc...etc...etc...etc...etc...etc...
As I've said on other threads, I believe Allen is a big boy and is responsibly for his words, but I think what he's trying to say here: "With the coming of the greater, the lesser disappears" - Before there was a gift of holy spirit, there were physical steps or rituals that people had to go through to become cleansed or scantified. For example, if someone touched a dead body, they were considered unclean. They had to go through certainly cleansing rituals or whathaveyou to enter the temple again. But after the gift of holy spirit was received, they were considered righteous, sanctified, etc., because they no longer had to live by the Law. I understand what Allen is trying to say, although he sort of says it with a sledgehammer... (your delivery needs a little work AW, but I get your point....)
So, Abi, and others -- please don't think that I'm taking you to task or anything with this next question - that's not the case at all here, but can you explain why it is that you prefer living under a law, not that it's obligitory or anything, when you have previously lived without it? What does it do for you or how exactly does it enhance your life?
As always, thanks again for entertaining my questions...
I can't really say I lived without being under a law in TWI. My experience was very legalistic. Grace was only on paper, not in actual living. It seems to me now that the mainstream churches had far more grace in their doctrine than we in TWI did.
I don't know about the others on this thread, but I don't follow a revealed doctrine...no set law. There is a common framework of practices, symbology etc, but unverified personal gnossis is common. Sinful, unworthy, unrighteous incomplete man who needs a savior is not part of it. Divinity is seen as transcendent and immanent, living within man and creation already.
I would have to echo Bramble, in that at no time in my life was I under MORE laws than in TWI. That being said, I don't feel that I live under laws.
Again, it comes down to how strictly one practices - Chassidic, Orthodox, Conservative, Reformed, Reconstructionist - - there are a lot of differences between them. I see the laws as serving two purposes 1) is health (as in food safety, hygiene, etc.) and 2) ritual. The health part does not need an explanation. The ritual part is symbolic - its purpose is to remind us of something, be it God's love, God's forgiveness, how we are supposed to treat each other, thankfulness, etc. I don't believe God needs me to perform rituals, they are for my benefit not His. Therefore, I feel I have the liberty to choose. For example, I have never slaughtered an animal and offered it in sacrifice. Nor, for that matter, have I ever met anyone else who has. Instead, many Jews will take bread to a river or pond and toss it to the ducks. Each piece of bread is symbolic of a wrong that the individual has commited. By tossing it, we are releasing it - letting it go and accepting God's forgiveness with a desire to do better in the next year.
However, if I ever were to practice strictly (which is highly unlikely) I would go the Chassidic route. They are the most strictly observant, but they also do it with the greatest depth of understanding (in my opinion). They do not perform the law for the law's sake, but with a very deep and thorough understanding of what each ritual symbolizes.
Another example - Passover with my family. We eat the Seder supper with my extended family. However, again we do not sacrifice a lamb. In fact, we eat turkey. :) We do tell the passover story and observe many of the other Passover traditions, but the point isn't the performing of the law for the law's sake, it is to remind us of something. To remind us not only of what God has freed us from, but what He will continue to free us from.
Your replies certainly make sense; I understand where you are coming from and how your choices for worship work for you. I can also understand how you say you were never more under the Law than when you were in TWI - I think that's true for many, if not most of us, especially if you happened to be IN during LCM's reign. When I referred to previously not living under the Law, I was mainly referring to the teachings we all know concerning Sonship Rights, etc. But I do understand what you're saying...
My husband's family is Greek Orthodox. We have baptized both of our sons in the Greek Church, but neither of us actually subscribe 100% to their beliefs. When we discussed the possibility of baptizing Kristopher, our oldest son, it was actually something that I suggested. My reasoning was (1) his grandfather founded the church in the city where we had it done; (2) his mother, aunts, and other family members who first came over here from Greece are all getting up in age and it would really make them happy; (3) Kristopher was the first grandbaby - and would most likely carry on the family name in this country (the first grandson for a Greek family is THE GOLDEN CHILD - let me tell you!); and (4) to remind us to raise him in the Lord. After Andreas was born, there was basically no discussion about the matter - we just did it - and with the same reasons.
Overall, I think that our choosing to baptize the boys in the Greek Church helped to bridge the "Anglo Gap" - as he didn't marry a Greek girl - he got a League of Nations gal. The ceremony was full of symbolism, and some superstition, as Greeks are very superstition people. It was a beautiful ceremony and I have no regrets. Hubby and I still believe most of what we were taught in PFAL, but I do appreciate the religion that his family practices. So that being said, I understand your choices.
I have a question for Bramble - I thought you were agnostic - did I misunderstand you?
Galatians 5: 1-4 "Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith CHRIST has made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall PROFIT you nothing.
For I testify again to every man that is circumsised, that he is a DEBTOR TO DO THE WHOLE LAW.
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are FALLEN FROM GRACE. "
Whilst Chas may understand why you have embraced laws and traditions, I don't ! I don't believe that twi can be blamed for someone reducing forgiveness of sins to 'throwing bread to ducks' etc.. etc..
Whether it was twi or some other Christian outfit that someone belonged to, IF they were enlightened in the meaning of the grace that comes by way of JESUS CHRIST then to me they are without excuse.
5-14.
Chas is right, I do come across as 'sledgehammerish' at times and I hope you believe I bear no ill-will toward you in what I have posted Abi, but I believe these verses sum up what can happen. Maybe twi leadership and others will bear judgement for the trouble they have caused. Bless you.
Allan, I don't "blame" twi for my religious choices. I was born into a Jewish family, however I was not raised as a practicing Jew at all. I spent my early childhood in a very small town where we were the only Jewish family. By the time I was 6 or 7 I knew far more about Christianity than I did about Judaism, and that remained true until about 2 years ago.
In elementary school I attended catechism (sp), mostly because "all the other kids did". Ironically, when we were quized about what we were learning, I did very well in answering the questions. As a teen I checked out a couple of different churches, but none of them held my interest. In my early 20's, I was lost and directionless and my mother was dying - I joined TWI.
When I left TWI I attened a Vineyard church for a time and eventually decided I wasn't comfortable there. I then spent a year or two studying a variety of relgions including Native American, Pagan, Buhdaism - almost everything BUT Judaism. That was in large part due to the fact that I too, had a lot of inaccurate information about Judaism and legalism.
Then one day, during a seder supper with my extended family it occured to me that I should check out my heritage and I have. In doing so, I have found a religion that fits me well.
You may see it as my having fallen from grace - but I see as having come to a far deeper understanding of what Jesus taught than I have ever found anywhere else.
Hi Abi...if that blesses you (and it sounds like it really does !) then I'm sure Gods' blessed for you too !
I may be wrong, but I heard Bob Dylan was with Vineyard church for awhile (but got kicked out for marihooanah possession !) I think his church feelings are expressed in a few of his songs. 'Jokerman' is one that comes to mind, 'Everything is broken' is another.
Allan, you said, "Whilst Chas may understand why you have embraced laws and traditions, I don't ! I don't believe that twi can be blamed for someone reducing forgiveness of sins to 'throwing bread to ducks' etc.. "
It is very simple, Allan. It is symbolic. I don't believe that if I fail to perform a ritual I am sinning or somehow condemned.
Rather, it is the performing of the ritual which reminds me of all that God has done for me. I am sure there are many people who have no need for such rituals and symbolisms - yet even it TWI there was communion, the holy spirit dove, manifestations, etc. For me, I do find some comfort in the symbolisms - I have simply chosen those rituals and symbols that work for me. In some sense, that is really the only difference between Jusaism, Christianity, Pagan relgions, etc. Religions may have different names for their gods, different rituals and symbols, but many of the core morals and beliefs are the same and serve the same purposes. To offer us comfort, hope, and redemption. To give us a frame work of healthy boundaries that serve not only the individual, but a community as well.
Chas, I am somewhere in the pagan/Wiccan realm. But agnostic, as in 'I don't know' all the answers etc, works for me, too. I know what I have experienced and can't promise it would be the same for any one else. I tend to think of spiritual belief as being like finger prints--every one's are different.
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Goey
"For our learning " This comes from Romans 15:4 and VPW's interpretation of it represents one of his bigger theological blunders.
Rom 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope. ( KJV)
"Learning" is from the Greek word - didaskalian. This is the same Greek word that is translated "DOCTRINE" all throughout the New Testament. So this verse could just as well be translated "for our doctrine".
I guess VP missed that - or he conviently ignored it. Regardless, it blows gaping hole in VPW's teaching that the OT does not "apply" now and is is only "for our learning".
VPW made a sharp distinction between doctrine and learning, whereas the scriptures do not. Didaskalia, is what is taught, or instruction as it is translated in many other versions.
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Oakspear
...and why something being "for our learning" precluded it from also being "to us" was something that didn't make sense.
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allan w.
Well, I guess if people want to keep the 'sabbath day' holy, continue blood sacrifices, stone unruly children,
give wave offerings, send goats off into the wilderness carrying their sins, etc.. that's up to them.
I tend to believe these were the doctrines 'aforetime' witten for our 'learning, teaching, doctrine' to 'appreciate' the differn'ce between THEN and NOW (in other words, we are to 'teach' (didaskalia, Romans 12: 7) the differn'ce between the old and the new, the law and the grace, the judgement and the mercy, the greater and the lesser.)
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dancing
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dancing
Abigail
Yes very true and the changes affect them both.
Seems not too many are interested here, perhaps more will speak.
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Abigail
Allan, you reveal your own ignorance about Judaism and your inability to read and comprehend what is written in a post.
The Alter Rebbe writes in his Siddur: It is proper to say before
prayer, "I hereby take upon myself to fulfill the mitzva `Love your
fellowman as yourself.'"
This means that the precept of Ahavat Yisrael [Leviticus 19:18] is the entry-gate
through which man can pass to stand before G-d to Daven. [Pray].
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Bramble
I'm reading this thread with interest. I know very little about Judaism so the information is all new to me. :)
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Abigail
Thanks, Bramble. I am glad the subject interests you. I think, in part because of our culture, that there is a lot that is misunderstood about Judaism.
And like Christianity, there is a large amount of diversity in belief and practice among Jewish people. However, we do have certain things that bond us together as well. For example, when lighting the candles on Shabbot, I am reminded that people all over the world are also lighting their candles - that despite our differences there is a unity and connection among all of us. I believe that bond exists among all people, not just Jews. It is good to be reminded that we all have some things in common, that we are all truly connected in some fashion. It reminds me to take time to see past the differences, disagreements, etc.
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Bramble
In TWI ritual was denigrated--even though TWI used very structured rituals( HF, communion). Since then I have found ritual rich in symbology and healing and can't imagine trying to live a spirituality which tries to erase it as a form of expression.
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Abigail
"Within each of us is a point where all of us meet. And within that
point is a place where we are all one simple essence. That is the soul of
the moshiach [messiah] within us.
If so, the person who we will call the moshiach [messiah] does not need to
convince us to follow. He only needs to awaken that sleeping moshiach [messiah] within
each of us. And then we will look and say, "I know this tzadik[righteous one]. He is
the spark I feel awake within me.
That is when we will all be liberated we and all the creation."
A Daily Dose of Wisdom from the Rebbe
-words and condensation by Tzvi Freeman
Tammuz 2, 5766 * June 28, 2006
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dancing
Great post Abigail,
We try too hard sometimes but we must seek which requires a few moves on our part. That is what unlocks many things we already have. They had it throughout history. And the moves we make will come to mind from within, a letting of those things that are be. Cause nothing really changes but our perception.
Seeing they cannot see. Another words things are seen but not understood.
A real game of making the right moves in the mind to see the moving of what's in the mind.
It's always been there, always will be.
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ChasUFarley
As I've said on other threads, I believe Allen is a big boy and is responsibly for his words, but I think what he's trying to say here: "With the coming of the greater, the lesser disappears" - Before there was a gift of holy spirit, there were physical steps or rituals that people had to go through to become cleansed or scantified. For example, if someone touched a dead body, they were considered unclean. They had to go through certainly cleansing rituals or whathaveyou to enter the temple again. But after the gift of holy spirit was received, they were considered righteous, sanctified, etc., because they no longer had to live by the Law. I understand what Allen is trying to say, although he sort of says it with a sledgehammer... (your delivery needs a little work AW, but I get your point....)
So, Abi, and others -- please don't think that I'm taking you to task or anything with this next question - that's not the case at all here, but can you explain why it is that you prefer living under a law, not that it's obligitory or anything, when you have previously lived without it? What does it do for you or how exactly does it enhance your life?
As always, thanks again for entertaining my questions...
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Bramble
I can't really say I lived without being under a law in TWI. My experience was very legalistic. Grace was only on paper, not in actual living. It seems to me now that the mainstream churches had far more grace in their doctrine than we in TWI did.
I don't know about the others on this thread, but I don't follow a revealed doctrine...no set law. There is a common framework of practices, symbology etc, but unverified personal gnossis is common. Sinful, unworthy, unrighteous incomplete man who needs a savior is not part of it. Divinity is seen as transcendent and immanent, living within man and creation already.
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Abigail
Chas,
I would have to echo Bramble, in that at no time in my life was I under MORE laws than in TWI. That being said, I don't feel that I live under laws.
Again, it comes down to how strictly one practices - Chassidic, Orthodox, Conservative, Reformed, Reconstructionist - - there are a lot of differences between them. I see the laws as serving two purposes 1) is health (as in food safety, hygiene, etc.) and 2) ritual. The health part does not need an explanation. The ritual part is symbolic - its purpose is to remind us of something, be it God's love, God's forgiveness, how we are supposed to treat each other, thankfulness, etc. I don't believe God needs me to perform rituals, they are for my benefit not His. Therefore, I feel I have the liberty to choose. For example, I have never slaughtered an animal and offered it in sacrifice. Nor, for that matter, have I ever met anyone else who has. Instead, many Jews will take bread to a river or pond and toss it to the ducks. Each piece of bread is symbolic of a wrong that the individual has commited. By tossing it, we are releasing it - letting it go and accepting God's forgiveness with a desire to do better in the next year.
However, if I ever were to practice strictly (which is highly unlikely) I would go the Chassidic route. They are the most strictly observant, but they also do it with the greatest depth of understanding (in my opinion). They do not perform the law for the law's sake, but with a very deep and thorough understanding of what each ritual symbolizes.
Another example - Passover with my family. We eat the Seder supper with my extended family. However, again we do not sacrifice a lamb. In fact, we eat turkey. :) We do tell the passover story and observe many of the other Passover traditions, but the point isn't the performing of the law for the law's sake, it is to remind us of something. To remind us not only of what God has freed us from, but what He will continue to free us from.
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ChasUFarley
Your replies certainly make sense; I understand where you are coming from and how your choices for worship work for you. I can also understand how you say you were never more under the Law than when you were in TWI - I think that's true for many, if not most of us, especially if you happened to be IN during LCM's reign. When I referred to previously not living under the Law, I was mainly referring to the teachings we all know concerning Sonship Rights, etc. But I do understand what you're saying...
My husband's family is Greek Orthodox. We have baptized both of our sons in the Greek Church, but neither of us actually subscribe 100% to their beliefs. When we discussed the possibility of baptizing Kristopher, our oldest son, it was actually something that I suggested. My reasoning was (1) his grandfather founded the church in the city where we had it done; (2) his mother, aunts, and other family members who first came over here from Greece are all getting up in age and it would really make them happy; (3) Kristopher was the first grandbaby - and would most likely carry on the family name in this country (the first grandson for a Greek family is THE GOLDEN CHILD - let me tell you!); and (4) to remind us to raise him in the Lord. After Andreas was born, there was basically no discussion about the matter - we just did it - and with the same reasons.
Overall, I think that our choosing to baptize the boys in the Greek Church helped to bridge the "Anglo Gap" - as he didn't marry a Greek girl - he got a League of Nations gal. The ceremony was full of symbolism, and some superstition, as Greeks are very superstition people. It was a beautiful ceremony and I have no regrets. Hubby and I still believe most of what we were taught in PFAL, but I do appreciate the religion that his family practices. So that being said, I understand your choices.
I have a question for Bramble - I thought you were agnostic - did I misunderstand you?
Thanks!
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allan w.
Galatians 5: 1-4 "Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith CHRIST has made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall PROFIT you nothing.
For I testify again to every man that is circumsised, that he is a DEBTOR TO DO THE WHOLE LAW.
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are FALLEN FROM GRACE. "
Whilst Chas may understand why you have embraced laws and traditions, I don't ! I don't believe that twi can be blamed for someone reducing forgiveness of sins to 'throwing bread to ducks' etc.. etc..
Whether it was twi or some other Christian outfit that someone belonged to, IF they were enlightened in the meaning of the grace that comes by way of JESUS CHRIST then to me they are without excuse.
5-14.
Chas is right, I do come across as 'sledgehammerish' at times and I hope you believe I bear no ill-will toward you in what I have posted Abi, but I believe these verses sum up what can happen. Maybe twi leadership and others will bear judgement for the trouble they have caused. Bless you.
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Abigail
Allan, I don't "blame" twi for my religious choices. I was born into a Jewish family, however I was not raised as a practicing Jew at all. I spent my early childhood in a very small town where we were the only Jewish family. By the time I was 6 or 7 I knew far more about Christianity than I did about Judaism, and that remained true until about 2 years ago.
In elementary school I attended catechism (sp), mostly because "all the other kids did". Ironically, when we were quized about what we were learning, I did very well in answering the questions. As a teen I checked out a couple of different churches, but none of them held my interest. In my early 20's, I was lost and directionless and my mother was dying - I joined TWI.
When I left TWI I attened a Vineyard church for a time and eventually decided I wasn't comfortable there. I then spent a year or two studying a variety of relgions including Native American, Pagan, Buhdaism - almost everything BUT Judaism. That was in large part due to the fact that I too, had a lot of inaccurate information about Judaism and legalism.
Then one day, during a seder supper with my extended family it occured to me that I should check out my heritage and I have. In doing so, I have found a religion that fits me well.
You may see it as my having fallen from grace - but I see as having come to a far deeper understanding of what Jesus taught than I have ever found anywhere else.
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dancing
Love has always been the highest Law.
Always, and boundless, a law that ends Law.
Yes a two edged sword.
Cutting twice going in and twice coming out.
To those ready to take it on.
The thoughts and intents of the heart.
Fruit of the Spirit against such there is no Law.
And the fruit of the spirit is love and more.
Perhaps the parable of parables.
Not attained through carnal thinking.
But by our intellect merging with the wisdom of God,
that makes foolish the wisdom of the world,
beyond what is written in scrolls and books and forums,
but that which is written and continues to be written in the heart.
We must use our thoughts and minds to see godliness.
It is all over the bible, and a simple but real game.
A game of stategy. To seek with the whole heart mind and soul.
And it is limitless, which includes religions of all sorts.
They can contribute in many ways.
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allan w.
Hi Abi...if that blesses you (and it sounds like it really does !) then I'm sure Gods' blessed for you too !
I may be wrong, but I heard Bob Dylan was with Vineyard church for awhile (but got kicked out for marihooanah possession !) I think his church feelings are expressed in a few of his songs. 'Jokerman' is one that comes to mind, 'Everything is broken' is another.
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Abigail
To further clarify . . . .
Allan, you said, "Whilst Chas may understand why you have embraced laws and traditions, I don't ! I don't believe that twi can be blamed for someone reducing forgiveness of sins to 'throwing bread to ducks' etc.. "
It is very simple, Allan. It is symbolic. I don't believe that if I fail to perform a ritual I am sinning or somehow condemned.
Rather, it is the performing of the ritual which reminds me of all that God has done for me. I am sure there are many people who have no need for such rituals and symbolisms - yet even it TWI there was communion, the holy spirit dove, manifestations, etc. For me, I do find some comfort in the symbolisms - I have simply chosen those rituals and symbols that work for me. In some sense, that is really the only difference between Jusaism, Christianity, Pagan relgions, etc. Religions may have different names for their gods, different rituals and symbols, but many of the core morals and beliefs are the same and serve the same purposes. To offer us comfort, hope, and redemption. To give us a frame work of healthy boundaries that serve not only the individual, but a community as well.
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Bramble
Chas, I am somewhere in the pagan/Wiccan realm. But agnostic, as in 'I don't know' all the answers etc, works for me, too. I know what I have experienced and can't promise it would be the same for any one else. I tend to think of spiritual belief as being like finger prints--every one's are different.
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dancing
Bramble, feel free to pm me.
I may be able to help.
But as we know we let patience work it's work.
answers come and questions too.
There are many who have been enlightened, not many hear though.
Peace.
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allan w.
Oh God...Clay wants you as an apprentice within the anamcara project ! ( I don't recall Abi saying she needed (help) Clay ?
Sorry, my mistake...BRAMBLE...(ditto to what I said anyway)
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dancing
Bramble is already better at talking to the dead then me.
Bramble proved it on the bully thread.
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