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It's a tempest in a teapot. A made-for-Greasespot drama. Just as we love to see the underdog win, we like to see the overdog lose. Overdogs, in this instance, are the mildly annoying "leaders" of a TWI offshoot.

Too many checks and balances stifle an organization. Too few, and it rots from within. They chose too few, apparently. There was no built-in reality check to restrain the loony impulses (like dream interpretation) which TWI utterly supressed. I wonder if CES leadership was psychologically unprepared for the ("spiritual") freedom they gave themselves. In one respect, they became like sheltered kids from a strict home, arriving at college and experiencing liberation for the first time. Naive, impulsive, bad choices were inevitable.

Let's face it, to believe your dreams are from God is just asking for trouble. That is fantasy, not faith. But it also served to give them power, and they took advantage of that power, as "leaders" do.

I wish CES had risen to become everything its founding idealists dreamed of, but within their dreams the seeds of opportunism were already planted - planted within the less-than-idealistic egotism of the founders. They gave themselves free reign because they, these children of Wierwille, believed they were smarter than Wierwille, and sought to perfect the Wierwille ministry model, which they didn't understand was inherently corrupt. Maybe they didn't get it because they were still a part of it.

--

I think most "leaders" recognize that line they cross, when they begin to believe the "ministry" belongs to them.

  • "My ministry serves God."
  • "I am the ministry's greatest servant."
  • "To serve me is to serve God."

And so it goes.

--

I am sure the CES (or more recently, the Spiders and Truth Fellowship) founders made an effort to get it right, but the rot (of self-serving opportunism) overtook them. They gave themselves too much power over the decision-making process, and integrity, principle, went out the window. How did the opportunism take over?

People apprehend virtue, but we feel vice, and serving vice feels nice. Denying vice can be painful. Vice connects with our emotions, which is why doing the right thing often requires resisting what feels good. We may congratulate ourselves for resisting the obvious vices, looking down upon those who do not, but we can easily sneak in the subtle ones. Religious types make a show of denying themselves physical comforts (for a while), but quickly find compensation in the many ego perqs with which followers seem compelled to shower them.

I found this interesting. It's probably not the first time it's been introduced with respect to the cults we see around us. Here is a list of the "7 deadly sins." Note the order. The first is rooted in the flesh. The seventh, solidly in the mind. Also notice, they are almost like a rainbow, a spectrum of human frailty.

1 Lust (Latin, luxuria)

2 Gluttony (Latin, gula)

3 Greed/Avarice (Latin, avaritia)

4 Sloth/Laziness (Latin, acedia)

5 Wrath/Anger (Latin, ira)

6 Envy (Latin, invidia)

7 Pride/Hubris (Latin, superbia)

(from Wikipedia)

Any of these remind you of a leader's behavior? (Sure, they're human frailties, but they manifest differently in leadership, and because they are leadership, inevitably hurt other people.)

Most "leaders" can manage to suppress 1-4 early in their careers. The seeds of 5, 6, and 7 are much easier to conceal, growing in the darkness, but over the years become so powerful eventually that they open the door to the others.

What I've come to understand from the universal pattern of ecclesiastical disappointments, great and small: our vices may be no more resourceful or creative than our virtues, but they ARE more persistent, more "faithful" to their ends.

--

This isn't deja vu. No thanks to TWI, we've been through it, and we see what's happening to CES, and we're not too surprised, and we pretty much know where they're headed. But CES still appears saintly, compared to the vile TWI of Rosalie Rivenbark and her team. CES "abuses" are almost cute by comparison.

What makes the whole "CES mess" somewhat amusing is the foolishness of individuals we'd all concede are pretty smart otherwise. Those individuals would happily tell you, in a hundred different ways ("Buy my book!"), just how smart they were, and are.

It is satisfying to see the proud brought down a few notches by their folly, and it's good to see the irony, this time around, from the outside looking in.

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It's a tempest in a teapot. A made-for-Greasespot drama. Just as we love to see the underdog win, we like to see the overdog lose. Overdogs, in this instance, are the mildly annoying "leaders" of a TWI offshoot....

Let's face it, to believe your dreams are from God is just asking for trouble. That is fantasy, not faith. But it also served to give them power, and they took advantage of that power, as "leaders" do....

--

This isn't deja vu. No thanks to TWI, we've been through it, and we see what's happening to CES, and we're not too surprised, and we pretty much know where they're headed. But CES still appears saintly, compared to the vile TWI of Rosalie Rivenbark and her team. CES "abuses" are almost cute by comparison.

What makes the whole "CES mess" somewhat amusing is the foolishness of individuals we'd all concede are pretty smart otherwise. Those individuals would happily tell you, in a hundred different ways ("Buy my book!"), just how smart they were, and are.

It is satisfying to see the proud brought down a few notches by their folly, and it's good to see the irony, this time around, from the outside looking in.

Just a set of random musings...

I continually see CES in two parts. There is the leadership - those that knew or should have known better. The guys that "knew the job was dangerous when they took it." These folks got their reward, be it good or bad.

Then there are "the followers." I really even hate using this term - but I can't find any others at the time. These folks run the gamut - some drank all the kool-aide, glady - other's sipped it and spit it out as soon as it touched their tongues.

I'll venture to say that most of the folks in this second were just looking for a way to serve God. The seeds of their distrust for anything other than the TWI model was bred in them by the parent cult. We can point fingers and say, "How come you didn't see this coming?" I'm not of a mind to do that though.

The worst part of Christianity is the religion that rides on its coat tails. Perhaps that is the real lesson for us all - beware the need to control God and others.

Perhaps we try too hard to put God in a box when all that is needed is a willing heart.

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Maybe they didn't get it because they were still a part of it.

amen. and amen.

The guys that "knew the job was dangerous when they took it."

and now on to the really important stuff: who can identify the source of the above quote? we say it and hear it said all the time, but i was surprised recently when i went looking for its origin.

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amen. and amen.

and now on to the really important stuff: who can identify the source of the above quote? we say it and hear it said all the time, but i was surprised recently when i went looking for its origin.

why do I keep getting all of these returns saying "super chicken"??? surely that can't be it!

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Satori001 - Some dreams are from God. It's all through the Bible and prophesied for our time (Acts 2).

I keep a dream journal bec/ I've had these dreams my whole life, my father had them and my grandmother had them. They come true. Two days or two years later -- they come true, in very vivid detail.

My grandmother used to say, "That's the end of my dream!" when I would tell her something that happened that day. She had already dreamed it.

Maybe sometimes it's my subconscious picking up on subtleties my conscious mind wants to deny. But when you dream about something happening in a certain place, people having certain hair color and mannerisms, and someone you've never met wearing the same darn pantsuit in your dream that they are wearing two weeks later when you meet them, someone saying "My name is _____, and then you meet that person 2 years later --- that's from GOD! There is simply no other explanation.

That being said, yes, we have to be careful what dreams we project onto others. It has to line up with God's Word. This is where people can get out of whack.

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