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templelady

THE other side of the Welfare Coin

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Generally undiagnosed or untreated mental illness is involved with many of these cases.

And here is where I respectfully disagree Chas

Because I think that people with what is called "Personality Disorders" often have far more control that they are willing to exercise

It's kind of which came first the chicken or the egg

My viewpoint is that if you are able to "hold it together" and come across in a manner that permits you to manipulate others to get what you want.

Then you are conscious of your action and able to control same.

But then I have trouble with the whole concept of personality disorder because it is completely subjective both in its diagnosis and treatment

This is what I meant when I said we have made gods of the mental health professionals

IN the old days it was called being lazy, shiftless and a few others I won't post

IMO Looking at life differently, being eccentric or even wacky IS NOT a justification for behaving badly and not supporting oneself--And Maybe just Maybe we need to get back to that viewpoint.

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I agree, Chas. Turning her in like you did, CW, should put her in a place where she pretty much HAS to get help. I mean, if she can't steal electricity anymore, if she can't do whatever other illegal things she was doing, if the authorities have found out that she's being abused - and she is if her husband won't pay for the proper living conditions and food for her - if she won't even go to the trouble to fill out the proper forms to get help - then he's abusing her and she's abusing herself.

I mean, it costs a lot of money to get to be more than 100 lbs. overweight and to the point where one can't walk, much less keep themselves clean. Somebody is spending money on food - maybe they just need education on proper diet and that IS something programs can help with.

Maybe turning her in is the best thing you could do for her. Like Chas said, shelters and hospitals know what's available to help people in that kind of situation. Heck, with your internet prowess, you can find the specifics for her - I Googled briefly and found a few really good sites with the information you asked Mo for and the Ombudsman program that Chas talked about.

But, like Mo asked...

As a society we have made Gods of the mental health business and left the concept of free agency and self responsibility on the doorstep. "I can't", "Somebody has to help me", "It's not my fault", "My parents.........(fill in the blank)" Enough already--we need to face the fact that some people will never step up to the plate and take responsibility for themselves--the question then becomes just when do we as a society have an obligation to fund their misanthropic lifestyles

I wish I knew. I've helped folks when I could and on one occasion ended up getting slapped in the face for even trying to help. *shrug* You can't help people who won't help themselves and I have very little pity for those folks. Maybe it's cruel and heartless, but I'm not going to force myself on someone who obviously would rather live in squalor than accept help and I don't see how or why the government should do it either.

It's the folks who deserve, want and need the help who can't get it that I feel sorry for. I'm afraid so many dishonest people have ruined a good thing for the honest and honestly needy.

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I mean, it costs a lot of money to get to be more than 100 lbs. overweight and to the point where one can't walk, much less keep themselves clean.

I must take issue with this statement. I know from my own personal experience in life that to buy the food I need to keep healthy costs an average of $95/week. That's just for me. To buy the food that causes obesity and other problems costs an average $40/week. That's for both me and my husband.

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Got to thinking maybe it would help if I posted actual examples of the behaviors that drive me crazy

Brilliant woman IQ in the 180's up and quits her high paying job because she feels it is unreasonable of her supervisor to demand she get projects done on schedule. Claims that she can't handle the stress. Has depression issues --refuses to take medication because she doesn't believe in it. Goes back to school for more advanced mathematics. Finds school too stressful so quits which ends the Pell grants. Finally her husband who has severe Health issues is forced to work to support them both because welfare etc. demands that she get a job or get a doctor's reason why she can't work which she can't get because she refuses to go to the doctor

Is she sick? yes, could she do something to alleviate the problem? --you bet--Is her refusal to do so grounds for withholding aid??

20 something able bodied guy been in and out of treatment for alcohol. Has a job, gets place to live with first months rent paid for by the state, 2 weeks later up and quits job because he didn't like the hours and the boss got on his case for coming to work hung over, and applies for rent assistance and food stamps.

Do we owe him Aid???

And this addiction is a disease thing

Cancer is a disease

People who are addicts make the decision to get dressed, make the decision to go to the liquor store or the bar, make the decisions to purchase alcohol, make the decision to drink the same. YOU can make the decision not to do the above--in fact just sitting in your chair takes a lot less effort that doing the above. This whole "I'm sick" routine makes me sick--I used coke and crack to the tune of $17,000 in three months, I used because it gave me a group to belong to, I used because I liked the high, I used because I was mad at the world. And I quit by making the decision not to buy any more, not to party with those who were using. Was it easy? HE-- NO did I slip up? SEVERAL Times _ but the decision to quit was made with the same brain as the decision to start - If I can do it--anyone can--Believe me-I am in no way extraordinary

Woman in her 40's Gets a church to pay for her housing--claims she is too ill too work--with what no one is sure--but has the energy to everyday run to various agencies for free food, and clothes apply to various agencies for financial aid--all the while commuting from one end of town to the other on the bus Yet She is TOO Sick to go to an office and sit behind a desk for eight Hours???????

DO we owe her aid????

This is just the tip of what I have seen in the last 15 years and continue to see on a daily basis

I have no desire to see anyone cold, hungry or going without medical care through no fault of their own

But When are we going to get back to the value that makes people accountable not only for the results of their cations but the consequences of same????????

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yes I think we should help them.

something is wrong.

they can not function.

here in NY being on welfare for anyone abe to work is NOT easy.

they do have to show up and anser for it and they do ave to have drug tests.

they do not have to be sober to collect but NOW the problem is documented and life will reflect the issue.

we can not let them sit homeless or starve.

what bothers me is the girls collecting the money with the baby daddy no name , and a guy sitting in the paid house with them.

eating the food feeling the love etc.

that makes me mad. the city is so unsafe many girls will have babies from one guy and another guy livng with them .

leaves alot of time for crime to happen. who will report them?

not me i do not want to live next to a angry thug and his children. they win hands down.

they can and do as they please float between this childs mama to that one. not a bad living really.

reminds me of alley cats.

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There is also fault on the welfare systems part because they allowed women to do it by not limiting the number of children with no father until recently. Too bad they didn't get it sooner.

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no father? no they have not always done dna tests for at least the last few decades. the laws here in NY have only been around for about ten years for child support . so what difference does it make anywya until they could what take their license, many could care less .

but it is better.

a story.

a friend of mine had a teenage son who had a baby that she raised since the day he was born.

her son got married and had 7more children with his wife.

old girlfriend fought for custody of her son and lost , so then she claimed she had another child by my friends son.

they took him to court she had to give name of all the possible fathers of whcih she named four. three left town couldnt be found etc.

so he went in and the judge told him well it is possible your the father YOU pay and pay he did and won custody of the baby when it was born. he had to defend himself to PROVE he was not the father! but he chose to keep the baby instead of fighting her.

so the baby sits in the family photo and you would say who is that??? and he says it is suppose to be my son .

cruel you say? my friend is balck as night so is her son . this baby is white as snow. He is married to a white woman and all of their children are mixed and remember he has a son by the girl from when he was a teen and they do not even remotely look alike and they are full blood brothers.

my friend gramma watches the kids and the parents of these NINE kids both work full time to give their children a good life.

BOTH times the girl got pregnate she wanted the pay check and the housing not the baby.

to me they are hero's

Edited by pond

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There is also fault on the welfare systems part because they allowed women to do it by not limiting the number of children with no father until recently. Too bad they didn't get it sooner.

While these women are responsible for getting pregnant and having children they cannot afford, the responsibility is not their's alone. It takes two to make a baby and there are far, far too many daddies out there who refuse to help raise their children, financially and otherwise.

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And here is where I respectfully disagree Chas

Because I think that people with what is called "Personality Disorders" often have far more control that they are willing to exercise

It's kind of which came first the chicken or the egg

My viewpoint is that if you are able to "hold it together" and come across in a manner that permits you to manipulate others to get what you want.

Then you are conscious of your action and able to control same.

But then I have trouble with the whole concept of personality disorder because it is completely subjective both in its diagnosis and treatment

This is what I meant when I said we have made gods of the mental health professionals

IN the old days it was called being lazy, shiftless and a few others I won't post

IMO Looking at life differently, being eccentric or even wacky IS NOT a justification for behaving badly and not supporting oneself--And Maybe just Maybe we need to get back to that viewpoint.

I don't exactly disagree with you here, because untreated mental illness can be at the choice of the patient - the patient going against medical advice. Personality disorders would be lumped in with this. Whether it's medication, therapy, or other treatment, if someone is offered treatment and refuses it, you can't do anything about it. That's their right as a patient. But you can without hold aid to them if they refuse to do what it takes to be at a higher level of functioning. I think what is not measured in the doling out of aid is the functioning level of people.

The real Gods of the health professionals aren't those in the mental health or behavioral health services, but the insurance companies.

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I don't exactly disagree with you here, because untreated mental illness can be at the choice of the patient - the patient going against medical advice. Personality disorders would be lumped in with this. Whether it's medication, therapy, or other treatment, if someone is offered treatment and refuses it, you can't do anything about it. That's their right as a patient. But you can without hold aid to them if they refuse to do what it takes to be at a higher level of functioning. I think what is not measured in the doling out of aid is the functioning level of people.

The real Gods of the health professionals aren't those in the mental health or behavioral health services, but the insurance companies.

Thank you for this post!

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Thank you for this post!

Well sorry, BUT do you want to work with a nut case?

do you want to have your co-worker be so fat they are slow and stink and eat to much food constantly?

Do you want your co-worker call in sick be late and all the issues mental helath issues bring in life?

I do not.

I tired of picking up the slack and I do not have compassion for those who get the same pay as I but cant function as the job dictates.

is this the stigma of having mental health issues every cries foul about?

to bad.

open a company and hire them then but be sure YOUR the one who has to do double time with them to get the job done.

Well sorry, BUT do you want to work with a nut case?

do you want to have your co-worker be so fat they are slow and stink and eat to much food constantly?

Do you want your co-worker call in sick be late and all the issues mental helath issues bring in life?

I do not.

I tired of picking up the slack and I do not have compassion for those who get the same pay as I but cant function as the job dictates.

is this the stigma of having mental health issues every cries foul about?

to bad.

open a company and hire them then but be sure YOUR the one who has to do double time with them to get the job done.

it seems to me all the energy is spent trying to get out of having to work for a living instead of actualy working.

and it isnt worth it to hire them or "give them a chance.

i would rather feed them off the roles.

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Well sorry, BUT do you want to work with a nut case?

do you want to have your co-worker be so fat they are slow and stink and eat to much food constantly?

Do you want your co-worker call in sick be late and all the issues mental helath issues bring in life?

I do not.

I tired of picking up the slack and I do not have compassion for those who get the same pay as I but cant function as the job dictates.

is this the stigma of having mental health issues every cries foul about?

to bad.

open a company and hire them then but be sure YOUR the one who has to do double time with them to get the job done.

At least that person is WORKING! They are paying taxes, just like you and I, and I'd rather see that then them living off the fat of my paycheck (which isn't so fat after the government gets ahold of it!) If your co-worker is such a piece of work, then that's really due to ineffective management of your company and/or department. (Sorry, I don't know what you do for a living.)

Stigmas with mental health treatment and diagnosis? You bet there is stigmas with it and you can't really tell people to suck it up - that's just heartless. Those issues still exist but nothing like they did 10, 15, 20 years ago. Health information is now more protected than it used to be thanks to HIPAA laws, but nonetheless ignorant people will still make judgments about those who need medication or therapy or hospitalization. I remember LCM saying that therapy was basically paying someone to be your friend - what a crock. I wonder how he felt about what when he was having thoughts of suicide?

But I digress...

There is tax breaks for companies who hire the mentally disabled - big difference, here - but that's another thread, I would think.

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Why are those people any different than any type of person who lies, cheats, conceils themselves and get away with it.

EXAMPLES...

1. COPORATIONS who know how to filter money for their own gain and benefit.

2. People who cheat on their taxes.

3. People who ACT like they are christian in one venue, and are fornicators on all other fronts?

4. People who have several IP addresses and pretend to be people that dont really exist?

5. People who will give you the shirt off of their back, as long as you wear it EXACTLY the way THEY tell you to?

I agree with one thing for sure

LET HIM THAT STOLE, STEAL NO MORE, BUT RATHER LET HIM LABOR..WORKING WITH HIS HANDS THE THING WHICH IS GOOD THAT HE MAY HAVE TO GIVE TO HIM THAT NEEDETH.

Its a matter of TRUTHFULNESS and NEED.

When it becomes a matter of GREED or HYPOCRACY....than why even have this discussion....THE STONES in your own passage way would first have to be picked up.

K,

HAVE A NICE DAY..

DAWN

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You dont think you pay more when Corporate American finds loop holes?

Check out gas prices, as one simple example.

You dont think you pay more when people cheat insurance companies and lie about losses?

And what is the price that you pay for dishonesty related to hidden IP addresses that speak to you on the internet?

We all pay....its all right verses wrong....and it all has the potential to be masked with deceit and hypocracy.

Dawn

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I've heard it all, how corporate America is doing it, How the other guy is doing it, how somehow the cheaters reasons for cheating are better reasons than any other cheaters reasons--

Bottom Line is they are cheating and lying.

Don't like the system--start working for changes --put some of that energy you use to run from agency to church, to charities looking for a free handout, while doing nothing to help yourself to work, to make changes

We aren't talking about the legitimately disabled here, the elderly, the too young--We are talking about able bodied adults who would rather spend their time and energy in getting the rest of us to subsidize them, whether through tax dollars or our donations to church and charity, rather than finding a job and supporting themselves

If I sound annoyed it probably is because every day I work with two groups of people

those who are down and out and whose desire is to get back in the game of life--who work, day labor and odd jobs, who pound the pavement in Alaska winters looking for a job-even a minimum wage job all for the purpose of getting back on their feet

those who are down and out and whose idea is to do as little as possible to change it. Whose first question is Can I get rental assistance? and where do I apply for food stamps? Who are indignant when we won't be a reference and say they have no money and can't work. Who spend their nights sitting up playing video games and annoying their roommates and then roll out of bed at noon followed by two hours of watching TV. Only to cry when their rent is due "I can't find a job-no one will hire me."

Granted there are people out there who need help who aren't getting it --and that needs to be addressed

But the reason it is so hard to make headway is because of all the people in that second group I deal with.

They are the ones who tar everyone with that nasty brush of "welfare mentality"

Edited by templelady

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I also think that people should worry about themselves a little more, and not so much about what other people are always doing or getting away with. SOMETHING about a beam in the eye... I am thinking. NONE of us are exempt. I am reminesent of the smoker who quits and tells the smoker who does....shame on you...or the crack cocaine addict that quits and tells the current addict...."HEY MAN, WHATS YOUR PROBLEM"??

Compassion...is it REALLY about putting yourself in the other guys shoes or is it more about...HEY LOOSER...WHERE ARE your shoes?

Dawn

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Dawn,

I'll begin by saying you obviously know nothing about me whatsoever if you are directing your post to me.

So I will inform you of a couple of things to aid:

I am active in helping the abused and homeless and in fact was part of providing some essential clothing as Christmas gifts. I even bake cookies for men in jail once a year when it is allowed for people to go in and help those who are trying to help themselves spiritually. I fed and loved a little chocolate skinned girl thru her schooling because she refused to follow her neighbors pattern of life and steal from the system. (a few things, enough for now)

I have personally been sexually abused from 4-9 years old, singled out and not given love by my father who would come home and hug by sister and brother (both now dead way too early) and not even spit in my direction because my mother was raped and I was a product of it and I disgusted my father because of it. I was raped as an adult. And I can't get into the other form of abuse because people know me and my husband and it would not be wise.

I work and shop, etc in situations where I have people who have mastered working the system and they flaunt it in my face almost as if they want me to deck them. I see a devil on their shoulders leading them into that crap and hateful attitude.

I grew up in Florida where you can sit and watch the system being worked over in living color. And where you can also get lost in the southern part of the state and if you do not speak Spanish or have a cell phone you can stay lost. Because the road signs are in Spanish and the maps on the walls of the gas stations are also in Spanish. (now this was years ago mind you so perhaps that has changed and I want to allow that or I would be a dang fool)

We are not talking about people who do not have shoes here. You need to get that before you proceed.

Kathy

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I don't exactly disagree with you here, because untreated mental illness can be at the choice of the patient - the patient going against medical advice. Personality disorders would be lumped in with this. Whether it's medication, therapy, or other treatment, if someone is offered treatment and refuses it, you can't do anything about it. That's their right as a patient. But you can without hold aid to them if they refuse to do what it takes to be at a higher level of functioning. I think what is not measured in the doling out of aid is the functioning level of people.

The real Gods of the health professionals aren't those in the mental health or behavioral health services, but the insurance companies.

If you ask a psychiatrist what are the most difficult parts about treating mental illnesses, they will tell that after the proper diagnosis is found, and the right medicaction (which often comes down to trial and error), it is getting patients to take their medication. The reason for this is because mentally ill people usually do not think logically and rationally (hence the label mentally ill). To most people, the notion of I have an illness and therefore need to take this medication may be simple and straightforward. To someone who's brain does not fuction normally, it is not so simple and straightforward.

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Abi,

What I have as problem with is the idea that having a personality disorder-whether treated or not- means that someone is automatically incapable of holding gainful employment. It has become a carte blanc to deny responsibility for one's own life

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