Paul

[TheInvisibleDan]

Invisible Dan,

Concerning historical evidence Bruce refers to early Jewish writings – especially the Jewish Historian Josephus http://www.worldinvisible.com/library/ffbruce/ntdocrli/ntdocc09.htm

The Works of Josephus is a good read for anyone that enjoys ancient history and touches on noteworthy people and events in the Bible. I'm not here to defend Bruce – just responding to you asking what evidence he provides. He does list some books for further reading of which I've read a couple

http://www.worldinvisible.com/library/ffbruce/ntdocrli/ntdocbib.htm

I'm not hung up in trying to defend the "integrity" of the Bible – or that I could prove it's infallible by doctrinal or philosophical argument. My opinion on any Bible stuff is going to be biased for sure – I'm a Bible-believing Christian. My point in these posts has been – from the things I've read, I believe the New Testament documents are reliable in terms of historical and geographical references, who wrote them, when they wrote them and because of my Christian bias [philosophical presupposition] view them as doctrinally and philosophically harmonious with the Old Testament.

The field of higher criticism is -like any field -not without its boondoggles, while its many significant contributions to exploring the Biblical literature are apparently not as well known to a general audience outside the more sensational theories that hit the news from time to time. I wouldn't, for example, consider James Cameron among the top ten. It was fascinating news for about 15 minutes (lol) and the whole thing went flat. This all on the heels of Dan Brown and "Judas" over the past couple of years. The "Gospel of Judas" was at least quite interesting.

I suppose my "philosophical presupposition" in my "critical" appoach may be summed up simply as attempting to make distinction between the "wheat" and the "tares" that occupy the field of Biblical literature. We will never entirely root out all the tares, but I think we've certainly much to gain in trying, in considering scriptures from root to fruit, instead of assuming they all emerge from the same source.

I even think the very character of Christ can all the more be guiding here. In fact, in my personal experience -such seems to far surpass the doctrinal hypnoticism cast by "All scripture is God -breathed..." and the limitations thereof.

Like I said before - I guess it comes down to which scholars you refer to. I have The Commentary on the New Testament: Acts by R.C.H. Lenski, Speaking about the noted scholar Sir W.M. Ramsay, Lenski says on page 8, 9:

"Ramsay…started with the view that the Acts were of little value historically because, like John's Gospel, they had been written with an ulterior purpose. But in his Bearing of Recent Discovery, p.89, he confesses: "The more I have studied the narrative of Acts, and the more I have learned year after year about the Greco-Roman society and thoughts and fashions and organizations in those provinces, the more I admire and the better I understand. I set out to look for truth on the borderland where Greece and Asia meet and found it here."

End of excerpt

I haven't done a "google" on this yet, but are you aware of any websites featuring his writings?

I'de like to revisit a chapter he did exploring the theory that Paul may have known Jesus prior to His crucifixion.

Unfortunately I can't recall the title of that particular Ramsey book at the moment.

It's been many years since I last read it.

I am no longer a follower of the Bible-worshipping crowd like TWI. I think that produces a cold, lifeless, legalistic religion that prohibits God from intruding. I view the Bible as a means to connect with God. Nor do I think the Bible or my faith will fall apart if I'm wrong on how many were crucified with Jesus. Because I focus on the central figure of the crucifixion – Jesus! I agree with your sentiment that Christians should be more concerned about following the teachings of Jesus and not getting hung up on doctrinal differences.

I intended to take on the premise of the writer - not you personally. Though I understand this might well be unavoidable,

depending on how much one might identify with a certain writer. In any event, T-Bone, I regard you a fine person and poster, even if I disagree with

"Bruce!" :) - or even should I disagree with you. Your posts are thoughtful, your spirit shines through.

Danny

Edited March 31, 2007 by TheInvisibleDan

[TheInvisibleDan]

Dannny said:

"Lets get real- Christians will never reach a consensus on such "basics" as the state of the dead, or how many crucifed, of the infallibility of super holy books, or how many demons it takes to dance on the eyeball of a chalatan, or how many gods it takes to fit into your toaster, - in the grand scheme of things, it all seems such piddly nonsense."

Indeed.

"But what if we all agreed to disagree, and to live by "Love your neighbor as your own self", and even "love your enemies"?

Far be it from me to get all touchy-feely, but you might have something there. I don't think the "let's kill everybody who doesn't agree with us" mantra is getting us anywhere...

Lol. No, I don't all this war business is doing anyone any good, outside of whoever's profiting from it all.

It's crazy stuff. I want to get a bumper sticker made, "Are We an Advanced Civilization Yet?"

But someone would most likely fill my gas tank with sugar (lol).

Anyways.. I'm just wasting thread space.. Maybe even without a point.. Love.. Yeah, get back to living that in everything..

C'mon! I thought yours was a fine usage of thread space.

The cowboys and the ranchers can be friends!

[T-Bone]

Thanks for your kind words, Invisible Dan – and the feeling is moochal…I knew your criticism was directed towards Bruce – and it is a fair assumption on your part that I favor his work…And disagreements don’t bother me one iota. In fact, I really do enjoy the dynamics of a thread like this. Challenges often get me to review why I think a certain way. Sometimes I reassess what really matters to me on an issue…what’s negotiable, what’s not. And it’s not always about me getting my point across. For some reason I enjoy hearing other people think out loud. All great posts on this thread!

I like what you said in post # 26: “I even think the very character of Christ can all the more be guiding here.” …Maybe that’s related in a roundabout way to my saying the Bible is a means to connect with God. I started thinking that after leaving TWI – perhaps out of rebellion to TWI’s worship of the Bible.

[anotherDan]

This thread is about four months cold, but I hope you don't mind if I open it up again. I enjoyed reading it, especially the interaction of Danny and T-Bone.

Doesn’t anyone else here find it curious that Paul in those epistles directly attributed to him never so much alludes even once to this rather significant mind-blowing conversion experience played in Acts - no cgi fx withheld - on the “road to Damascus” ?

1Cr 9:1 Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord?

1Cr 15:8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

I think these passages from the Pauline Epistles "alludes" to "this rather significant mind-blowing conversion experience."

As to the premise of the thread, I respect Lindy's question, and his own place in his journey to live authenticly. Sometimes you really have to "chuck it all" and start from scratch. (George, Arr Example!) I still feel that I can harmonize the Pauline Christ with the Evangelists' Jesus. The Gospels and the Epistles were written for different reasons. Paul apparently had no desire to document either his own conversion experience, nor to write a Life of Christ. He did give us the words of the Lord Jesus "that it is more blessed to give than to receive," but it was (like his quotations from the OT) in reference to his ministry via letter as a pastor and teacher. He also wrote the first surviving account of the Lord's Supper in 1Cor.11.

Your icebreaker ("my story" "about me" ? I forget what it's called) Lindy, was even colder than this thread, but I just read it. It's how I got here, in fact, through your profile. I learned a lot there, and I thank you for writing it! The most elegant writing comes from those who are really feeling something!

So let's say we throw Paul out, for discussion's sake. Can we know Jesus from the Gospels? How do we relate to this Messiah/Teacher/Example? It doesn't seem like you have quite "chucked it all" as Arr Example has. Could you tell us more about how Lindy vs. the Cosmos is developing?

Edited August 7, 2007 by anotherDan

[TheInvisibleDan]

This thread is about four months cold, but I hope you don't mind if I open it up again. I enjoyed reading it, especially the interaction of Danny and T-Bone.

1Cr 9:1 Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord?

1Cr 15:8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

I think these passages from the Pauline Epistles "alludes" to "this rather significant mind-blowing conversion experience."

The question in my mind though is - which conversion-version?

Danny