Dot, I think it's wonderful that you seem to get some comfort and reassurance from your beliefs, but I wouldn't invest much in this guy's "ministry".
Just take a close look at the video (a pretty OLD event it seems). First the little girl walks up on her own two feet, with no evidence of any pain or discomfort. Then the "minister" pushes her leg up to make it appear shorter, then - while praying - watch his fingers as he stretches that leg back out again.
Then he puts the little girl down and she walks ( and runs) pretty much the same as she did to begin with - still with a limp (which the minister excuses as simply old habit). I don't know, as charlatans go, I don't think this guy even rates up there with the likes of Peter Popoff or Benny Hinn. I think he's more on a par with Uri Geller maybe. Cheap tricks, unconvincing results...
"Allen died at the Jack Tar Hotel in San Francisco, California on June 11, 1970 at the age of 59. The coroner's report concluded Allen died from liver failure brought on by acute alcoholism.[1] Police found his body in a "room strewn with pills and empty liquor bottles."
I also read bad things about him, but I am still looking for the healing of God. It is my only option, and if I have to pass this guy, then I will, but there is a Godly healing somewhere. I am going to find it, or die trying. I will not conclude that there is no such thing as a miracle or a Godly healing from all that I read good or bad about him. I lived the bad in VPW, and I keep looking.
Thanks
From the link I posted, here is another thing said of his death:
Gerald King said, "We were in the Jack Tar Hotel in San Francisco in the late afternoon, and Bro. Allen said, 'Jerry, I feel tired, I believe I'll rest a bit, before we go to dinner.' " Jerry said, "I went to my room, and about 8:00 P.M. began to be concerned because I hadn't heard from Allen. I phoned his room, got no reply, so went up and knocked on the door, and still got no reply. I then proceeded to get the manager who opened the door, and we found Bro. Allen slumped over in an easy chair, dead."
The medical Examiner issued a certificate of death, stating the cause of death as "an apparent heart attack."
Many stories have been told, some stating that "the room was full of empty liquor bottles," and others, that he "died an alcoholic". . . but they are all lies, based on "narrow minded, evil surmisings," by people who would rather discredit the ministry, than to "believe the truth." Believing the truth, requires one to accept the prophecies, and act upon them.
George, I appreciate where you are coming from. Perhaps you think it is sad that I am still "hunting" for Jesus and the miracles seen in the 1st century church. Perhaps, you are concerned I will be tricked or hurt again. Believe me, I share those concerns.
But the alternative? To stop looking? I cannot abide that in my life. And although you may be concerned about my being tricked, I concern myself with people who did not find, so they stop looking.
You may prove to be the right one, when all is said and done. I hope not, for then life is even more bleak and without hope, than I have felt. Yes, I can rely on ME. But although reliable, I cannot restore, fix or help very much. For my "engine" to run, I have to repy on the "premise" that there is a God who loves me and wants us well.
And I would rather go out thinking that way, and never find it, then live thinking it does not exist.
So, I hear you. And maybe Allen is a con. In many places, your steel logic is wise and strong, but I really hope you are wrong.
I hope, there truly is a God that can look at my broken self, and reach out with restoration and wholeness -- or I must say -- if your version of the world is true, I wish to God I had never been born. For it would be a very dark planet.
That is not meant to make you less strong or convicted in things you share, but this is just my truth...
I also read bad things about him, but I am still looking for the healing of God. It is my only option, and if I have to pass this guy, then I will, but there is a Godly healing somewhere. I am going to find it, or die trying. I will not conclude that there is no such thing as a miracle or a Godly healing from all that I read good or bad about him. I lived the bad in VPW, and I keep looking.
I dont know if this guy is for real or not. I know that we are a bit gun shy when it comes to religions or ministries. So...
It is commendable that you continue to search for the healing of God. Do you search for someone else to do the healing or do you search to learn how to do it yourself? Sometimes it helps to define your search more clearly. Like google...you get better results when you get more specific.
Whatever the reason I sincerely pray that you find what you are looking for.
, but there is a Godly healing somewhere. I am going to find it, or die trying.
Dot my dear, that is precisely what worries me so much. :( God does NOT want you to die. God will not force healing on someone who is unwilling to hear Him. Living love requires loving yourself, it requires living too. Please take care of yourself while you are searching for the healing!
I mean, I believe there is healing. And when it is my time to go, I will be going still believing it is out there, and I have not found it rather than believe it is not available.
I am looking for people who have had successful ministries like BG so that I can learn how to be that kind of believer. Reading the Bible sometimes still has TWI in it. So, I read, but I am looking into ministries where there was fruit.
People are tired of religion, so am I. I want the "living" words in me, so I can present life to people encased in the death shrouds.
I also want to wash the world off of me. Reading Smith Wigglesworth has been exciting. Also Kathi Oates.
Dot, your search touches my heart, and recent posts by you have allowed me to understand you much better, and certainly this morning when I've decided not to go to a church or fellowship, I will take a little time to pray for your situation, and beseech God to bless you and give you wisdom, strength and healing. The other thread about slain in the spirit was very very interesting to me... the various viewpoints and all, including yours.
Like you, I want the "real deal," and I believe that the spiritual can look pretty silly to the "natural man." Like Paul calling himself a fool for Christ. The preaching of the cross was to some, foolishness.
I've hit rock bottom hard enough to be willing to "chuck it all" and start all over, several times. Actually I could say that I'm there right now (long story... not worth the typing). We are sometimes all too willing to deny the spiritual, using logic.... "science" is more reliable than spirit. Paul spoke about "every high thing" that exalts itself over the knowledge of God.
Science is thought to have debunked what more primitive cultures deemed to be demonic forces.... "they" say that it was just terminology to explain forces that defied comprehension at the time... so we have theads here at GSC about whether or not epilepsy, for example, or cancer are spiritual. Modern medicine is having to deal with all kinds of immune diseases like lupis and we have all kinds of new "scientific" explanations for things like ADD... we're prescribing drugs that manipulate seratonin (sp?) levels in the body. I'm a big believer in medicine and science. I'm also a big believer in the stripes of Jesus.
The array of points-of-view represented on this forum is "deep as a river, high as a mountain"! It has helped me to shed a lot of foolishness, both on the natural side, and on the spiritual. It's all really one, of course. We are both spiritual and physical.
I would like to give you a cut-and-dry anwser from my heart, but it's not in there. I can only tell you where at this point in my journey my heart is settled, and where it questions. First of all, I'm leery of barking, "holy laughter," "slain in the spirit," and prophecies of all kinds (I did read that one you posted "for those who believe in prophesy," by the way... not making a judgement on that, specifically... other than to say I am leery). I'm unconvinced by arguements posted that being slain in the spirit and some of this other stuff is "scriptural." On the other hand, those who are freer thinkers than I have posted some worthy thoughts about re-thinking the meanings of some of these terms in the Bible, and interpreting various practices and beliefs. InvisibleDan and SirGuessalot made some great points. George Aar has a valid point of view (hi, George!). But ultimately, we need somehow to arrive at an authentic response to what is happening around us. We have to accept the limitations of both science and theology to really explain what happened at Columbine and 9/11, and why depression is so prevalent in our society. It's going to take an act of God to make this happen. Man's not going to evolve sufficiently to master it without the Master. He may make some progress, but he'll get rocked the next time around because he'll be so full of himself for being so smart!
The bottom line is that we have real lives, with real families and dogs and jobs, we have real bodies that suffer various afflictions, real yearnings that remain unfulfilled at times. Both religion and science have their answers, sometimes to the exclusion of the other, and once in a while, they are compatible.
Faulty faith is trumped by actual wisdom, but faulty wisdom is trumped by true faith (that is, faith in that which is actually true.) Does God see, and provide? Does He heal? I believe He does. Does He work in the "ministries" of alcholics and perverts? I seriously doubt it. I'm with George on this one. Again, I wish I could just give you an answer that would resolve your conflict and make everything all better. Best I can do is what I've posted here, and to pray for you. A verse that comes to heart is to be wise as a serpent, but harmless as a dove. Don't let psuedo-spiritual practicioners suck you into their void. But don't stop seeking God because of the right-brainers, either. God may not be what the smartest theologians say He is, but He is who He is! And there is a sanity that transcends logic... it's called peace, and joy, and righteousness, and "the holy spirit."
While I pray for you (and the "original dooj") and while I thank God for pond's new job this morning, I pray that there really is power in this earthen vessel, what Roy and one of the Gospel writers calls "virtue." Love never fails!
((((Dot)))) I do so hope you know I think the world of you and I think you're a very strong, compassionate and loving woman. I hope that you don't get so wrapped up in this quest of yours that you're easily snookered or miss the red flags that God does send your way. :)
I'm curious, too, if you spend any time getting really quiet - quiet with yourself - meditating, for lack of a better word. Not sitting with your brain going 100 mph over all the things going on in your life and heart, but just getting quiet, sitting and breathing, thinking nothing, of nothing at all, just "in" (breathe) - "out" (breathe).... That's when things get clear for me and, I think, why so many of us have incredible insights while we're in the shower or mindlessly washing dishes. It's a time when we stop life for a moment and get quiet in our own brains and hearts.
Like cman so eloquently stated.... the answers are usually already within us, it's just getting to that point where we are quiet enough to actually hear that still, small voice, ya know? :wub:
I have worked on quiet seas and I believe that God led me to the church and conference.
I have been to 11 churches over the past years here and they are void of power. The chatter in the halls are about cakes and the like. Nobody is talking about miracles.
This new place is.
I do see fruit.
BUT, I do have problems with some things as I wrote in Slain in the Spirit
It is interesting that you should mention this. I had thought of you as a woman with a gift, specifically the gift of healing as a ministry. I know that I am marginal at it. If I concentrate really hard and am truly wanting to heal someone I can get the mental image that you have described. But it is work for me. You sound like it is something that truly is a part of you. We all have our own gifts and places in the body, so it does not surprise me that you are better at it than I.
So of course I am a bit confused why you would look elsewhere when I see this gift in you from, I think all the way across the country? Am I just going nuts again?
Anyway the strange thing here is, just the other day (Tuesday to be exact) I was on my way to the range to requalify on my GAU (that's machine gun to you civies) when I saw this church that caught my eye. And as clear as day I heard in my soul, "You need to check this out". So I'm thinking, "Why?" Now I think I have my answer. I will check it out and see what I may see.
In the mean time I'm going to see what I may find in way of healing ministries and similar stuff for you.
I have no idea what relevence that story has to this thread, it just came to mind when I read your reply to me.
I have been loving the Lord, alone, since I left TWI. With the exception of some folks here and a few “churches” I have tried.
We all need each other to grow and learn.
I am not a researcher AT ALL. Something Wordwolf found in the scriptures, delivered me from a "dog chasing its tail practice," regarding that scripture of prayer and fasting.
I have been praying and whatnot for a long time and the Father has shown me things in my effort to Glom onto him.
BUT
In my own humanness, I have failed not having the body of Christ, to learn from as well. We are a family
I told this before:
There was a girl who came to twig, raped by her father and pregnant. She sat in twig, afraid to remove her coat, as her belly increased in size. One day, after her father had beaten her, she asked me to pray for her.
I did.
I told her, I SAW the baby and it looked fine.
THEN, I discovered she was crazy. She was never assaulted by her Dad, nor was she pregnant. She was tying pillows under her coat.
I was then afraid to minister to people as I felt like a fraud.
Years later, I was speaking with Tim Sulliv@n about this subject, and he told me how God can talk to us in symbolism/pictures.
He asked me what I saw. I told him I saw a see-through baby.
He said, “Like it wasn’t really there.”
And the second time, “I saw a cartoon baby that winked at me.”
He said, “Like it was fake or wasn’t real.”
I missed the symbolism and it stopped me for years….
I needed to learn that from someone else, in the body of Christ, so I could help people. I am willing and need to learn. If A A Allen is a joke, then so-be-it, it does not mean healing is. So, in my quest, if I run across goobers, well "so what," I guess.
(And others, BTW say Allen was lied about and died of a heart attack.)
So, although many times I do not want to RISK getting involved with other Christians, I think it is necessary for growth. I just have to wear my wise as a serpent cap, I imagine.
I hope it makes sense.
And BTW like you, I am being directed to the healing rooms. I will learn what I can
I go alone. Which is okay. But I do not have someone to bounce this off of -- except my phone friend.
First, I want to go on record by saying . . . "I have never seen anyone cast out more devils, than Bro. Allen did." According to Jesus Christ, . . ."Satan does not cast out Satan, else his kingdom would be divided and not stand..."
Secondly, A. A. Allen kept the tightest schedule of any man I have ever known, never was late to a meeting, never missed a service without making prior arrangements for someone to fill in. These are not the "marks of an alcoholic."
Next, I never saw one thing in the life of this man that was "un-Christ like". . . he had more compassion than any other person I have known . . . spent many hours in prayer. . . loved lost souls. . . All the marks of a Christ-centered life.
Said by a man who travelled with him for six years.
And this:
When God multiplied the Allen ministry, and his Miracle Magazine was being read by five million readers each month, the devil was "outraged" to say the least.
I spoke with Bro. Allen by telephone, from England, just a few days prior to his death. He told me he was "going to San Francisco, with Gerald King (his brother-in-law, and executive director) to meet with Burney Schwartz, to re-do the radio contracts." (The Allen Revival Hour was then carried on approximately 186 stations daily.)
I returned to the U.S. and a couple of days later, he died. I spoke with Gerald King, and others; read the Medical Examiners report, and was also an "honor guard" at his funeral.
Gerald King said, "We were in the Jack Tar Hotel in San Francisco in the late afternoon, and Bro. Allen said, 'Jerry, I feel tired, I believe I'll rest a bit, before we go to dinner.' " Jerry said, "I went to my room, and about 8:00 P.M. began to be concerned because I hadn't heard from Allen. I phoned his room, got no reply, so went up and knocked on the door, and still got no reply. I then proceeded to get the manager who opened the door, and we found Bro. Allen slumped over in an easy chair, dead."
The medical Examiner issued a certificate of death, stating the cause of death as "an apparent heart attack."
Many stories have been told, some stating that "the room was full of empty liquor bottles," and others, that he "died an alcoholic". . . but they are all lies, based on "narrow minded, evil surmisings," by people who would rather discredit the ministry, than to "believe the truth." Believing the truth, requires one to accept the prophecies, and act upon them.
Many prophecies are yet unfulfilled. . . "My Vision of the Destruction of America," which Allen saw atop the Empire State Building. . . and others.
I see. Thanks, Dot. Things are not always as they appear.
I'm glad you're staying connected, and I feel that God is watching over you. Nothing is more clear to me than that you are precious and beloved to God and to me.
I watched several of those videos and I believe they were truly healed people. I thought the girl was limping before and only for a short time after. I think it was real. I got a kick out of the lady in the wheelchair running behind it, pushing Rev. Allen in it down the ramp. Part of it seemed hokey, but she was up out of the chair and running!
I too believe God would have us healed. I'm excited about the future in terms of what we learn and do with God.
Personally, I'm learning about Jesus right now. After I get a solid understanding there, I'll move on to my next subject which may well be healing. I don't know right now. For right now, I'm just thankful I can open a bible again and enjoy it. TWI falsely accusing my son and me as they did and tossing us out like trash affected me for a long, long time. I'm now getting past all that and see my future in a whole different light than I did the first 10 or 12 years after the m & a.
Ya know, in Allen's vison he speaks of the Statue of liberty choking on white smoke,
This could not have been post dated, as he was dead.
I think there are prophets and the like alive and well, I think I missed some in the past, and I do feel we can learn from them.
My friend watched it and truly believes he saw healing as well.
It is nice to learn of and persue Jesus.
In this church I have been going to, during worship service, it is free thinking. They have an area for painters who wish to paint their hearts to God. This is all new to me, but the paintings were gorgeous.
It makes perfect sense, and that story that you told was the one that inspired me to reach out even further than I have in recent months.
Since coming to the Spot I have rediscovered the young lady that went out WOW in 82 and was methodically murdered. I have resurrected and reconciled that carefree, God loving, inquisitive and honest person with the calloused, angry, suspicious and guarded person that came home from the Corps. Now I am whole again and looking to understand and heal all the smaller cuts and abrasions.
It was the family here that helped make this possible. As you said it is contact with the body of Christ that helps us learn because we are a family. But there are so many more family members out there in the world that never even heard of twi, and all of us should at some point in time should try to connect with some of them. (That is if we want to be an active member of the body of Christ.)
By the way the "drunk" label was on him with his visons
And this story!
Both Bro. Allen and H. Kent Rogers, (his vice-president and crusade song leader) told me the same story, separate from each other.
The Allen party was in revival in the Auditorium at Knoxville, Tennessee. in the mid 1950's . . . There was no church large enough to accommodate the crowds, so the auditorium was chosen. The local pastors of the denomination he belonged to at that time, were clamoring for the "headquarters" to force Allen to "come back into the churches, where he belonged". . . (The real reason for the pressure to go back into the churches, was due to the fact that the local church would then receive the tithe from the offerings received; whereas, in the auditorium meetings, only the denominational headquarters got any tithe).
When Allen refused to "return to the churches", because the crowds attending the meetings were too big for any church to accommodate, the "preachers" decided to "rule or ruin" the Allen ministry!
Bro. Allen drove from the motel in Knoxville, to the auditorium each night, accompanied by Bro. Rogers, and one or two others of the team. Since Allen did not eat before the service, he stopped at a local cafe on the way, to have a glass of milk.
This particular evening in question, he remarked to Rogers, "Rog, that milk tasted funny". . . Rogers responded, "perhaps it was blinky," meaning about to sour. . .
They then left the cafe for the meeting, and after driving a couple of blocks, Bro. Allen told Rogers, "I feel really dizzy, and think I'd better let someone else drive." He pulled over, and when he stopped, the media were there, accompanied by several denominational pastors, and the police. (What a strange coincidence!)
Allen was then "ticketed" for DUI, and given a citation and allowed to proceed. He went to the auditorium , conducted the meetings, and in the following days newspaper, the headlines screamed, "Evangelist Allen arrested for drunk driving". . .
Allen and Rogers both told me this story. . . and that Allen simply "paid the ticket" and went on, rather than interrupt the schedule of meetings. They both felt that the goal of the "vendetta" was to "stop the Allen meetings." When the denomination demanded that Allen "stop his ministry", he refused, and "went independent." That meant an end to the large "tithe" they had been receiving, so they continued to attempt to "blackball" the Allen ministry.
In Allen's own words, "All the criticism directed against this ministry can be summed up in three words, MONEY, MONEY, MONEY!"
Yes, eyes
Seeking people outside of the TWI box has lead to great learning.
Please try reading Smith Wigglesworth "Healing"
And tell me what you think.
Perhaps, this can be a family project. Two sisters, and anyone else, learning about healing...
It is interesting that you should mention this. I had thought of you as a woman with a gift, specifically the gift of healing as a ministry. I know that I am marginal at it. If I concentrate really hard and am truly wanting to heal someone I can get the mental image that you have described. But it is work for me. You sound like it is something that truly is a part of you. We all have our own gifts and places in the body, so it does not surprise me that you are better at it than I.
Agreed!
(((((((((((Dot))))))))))))
Just have time to make a quick comment here because we just got home from church and are heading back out for some "back to school" shopping for the kids. I love that AA Allen video! God is still powerful and wants to heal people. Dot, I believe that you have a real ministry for healing and working of miracles. I'm so glad you're after it. I know that God will protect you and give you discernment.
One of the things we do at church is pray together in small groups of 4 or 5. You never know who you're going to pray with, (except I make sure I'm always with Chuck). Anyway, this moring we turned around to pray with this man and his daughter who looked like 12 but she was 15. Everyone shares what they want to pray for and I asked to pray for my friend (Dot) in At. to find the right church. Anyway, this little girl name Rebecca prayed the most awesome prayer for you and I felt the power of God in that little group. Just wanted you to know that others are praying for you in your search.
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Dot Matrix
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George Aar
Dot, I think it's wonderful that you seem to get some comfort and reassurance from your beliefs, but I wouldn't invest much in this guy's "ministry".
Just take a close look at the video (a pretty OLD event it seems). First the little girl walks up on her own two feet, with no evidence of any pain or discomfort. Then the "minister" pushes her leg up to make it appear shorter, then - while praying - watch his fingers as he stretches that leg back out again.
Then he puts the little girl down and she walks ( and runs) pretty much the same as she did to begin with - still with a limp (which the minister excuses as simply old habit). I don't know, as charlatans go, I don't think this guy even rates up there with the likes of Peter Popoff or Benny Hinn. I think he's more on a par with Uri Geller maybe. Cheap tricks, unconvincing results...
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George Aar
And also:
"Allen died at the Jack Tar Hotel in San Francisco, California on June 11, 1970 at the age of 59. The coroner's report concluded Allen died from liver failure brought on by acute alcoholism.[1] Police found his body in a "room strewn with pills and empty liquor bottles."
Anybody else see a pattern here?
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Dot Matrix
Maybe he is/ was a con.
I also read bad things about him, but I am still looking for the healing of God. It is my only option, and if I have to pass this guy, then I will, but there is a Godly healing somewhere. I am going to find it, or die trying. I will not conclude that there is no such thing as a miracle or a Godly healing from all that I read good or bad about him. I lived the bad in VPW, and I keep looking.
Thanks
From the link I posted, here is another thing said of his death:
Gerald King said, "We were in the Jack Tar Hotel in San Francisco in the late afternoon, and Bro. Allen said, 'Jerry, I feel tired, I believe I'll rest a bit, before we go to dinner.' " Jerry said, "I went to my room, and about 8:00 P.M. began to be concerned because I hadn't heard from Allen. I phoned his room, got no reply, so went up and knocked on the door, and still got no reply. I then proceeded to get the manager who opened the door, and we found Bro. Allen slumped over in an easy chair, dead."
The medical Examiner issued a certificate of death, stating the cause of death as "an apparent heart attack."
Many stories have been told, some stating that "the room was full of empty liquor bottles," and others, that he "died an alcoholic". . . but they are all lies, based on "narrow minded, evil surmisings," by people who would rather discredit the ministry, than to "believe the truth." Believing the truth, requires one to accept the prophecies, and act upon them.
George, I appreciate where you are coming from. Perhaps you think it is sad that I am still "hunting" for Jesus and the miracles seen in the 1st century church. Perhaps, you are concerned I will be tricked or hurt again. Believe me, I share those concerns.
But the alternative? To stop looking? I cannot abide that in my life. And although you may be concerned about my being tricked, I concern myself with people who did not find, so they stop looking.
You may prove to be the right one, when all is said and done. I hope not, for then life is even more bleak and without hope, than I have felt. Yes, I can rely on ME. But although reliable, I cannot restore, fix or help very much. For my "engine" to run, I have to repy on the "premise" that there is a God who loves me and wants us well.
And I would rather go out thinking that way, and never find it, then live thinking it does not exist.
So, I hear you. And maybe Allen is a con. In many places, your steel logic is wise and strong, but I really hope you are wrong.
I hope, there truly is a God that can look at my broken self, and reach out with restoration and wholeness -- or I must say -- if your version of the world is true, I wish to God I had never been born. For it would be a very dark planet.
That is not meant to make you less strong or convicted in things you share, but this is just my truth...
edited for punctuation
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Eyesopen
I dont know if this guy is for real or not. I know that we are a bit gun shy when it comes to religions or ministries. So...
It is commendable that you continue to search for the healing of God. Do you search for someone else to do the healing or do you search to learn how to do it yourself? Sometimes it helps to define your search more clearly. Like google...you get better results when you get more specific.
Whatever the reason I sincerely pray that you find what you are looking for.
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Abigail
Dot my dear, that is precisely what worries me so much. :( God does NOT want you to die. God will not force healing on someone who is unwilling to hear Him. Living love requires loving yourself, it requires living too. Please take care of yourself while you are searching for the healing!
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Dot Matrix
Thanks
I do not mean the trying will kill me
I mean, I believe there is healing. And when it is my time to go, I will be going still believing it is out there, and I have not found it rather than believe it is not available.
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Abi
I see what you are saying.
There was a woman of faith who prayed for her schizophrenic son. She and her prayer partner prayed a bunch.
Well, rather than put him away, she kept her faith and her son stabbed her 68 times and she died.
I do see...
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Abigail
Okay (((Dot)))
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Dot Matrix
Eyes
I am looking for people who have had successful ministries like BG so that I can learn how to be that kind of believer. Reading the Bible sometimes still has TWI in it. So, I read, but I am looking into ministries where there was fruit.
People are tired of religion, so am I. I want the "living" words in me, so I can present life to people encased in the death shrouds.
I also want to wash the world off of me. Reading Smith Wigglesworth has been exciting. Also Kathi Oates.
I will keep looking
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anotherDan
Dot, your search touches my heart, and recent posts by you have allowed me to understand you much better, and certainly this morning when I've decided not to go to a church or fellowship, I will take a little time to pray for your situation, and beseech God to bless you and give you wisdom, strength and healing. The other thread about slain in the spirit was very very interesting to me... the various viewpoints and all, including yours.
Like you, I want the "real deal," and I believe that the spiritual can look pretty silly to the "natural man." Like Paul calling himself a fool for Christ. The preaching of the cross was to some, foolishness.
I've hit rock bottom hard enough to be willing to "chuck it all" and start all over, several times. Actually I could say that I'm there right now (long story... not worth the typing). We are sometimes all too willing to deny the spiritual, using logic.... "science" is more reliable than spirit. Paul spoke about "every high thing" that exalts itself over the knowledge of God.
Science is thought to have debunked what more primitive cultures deemed to be demonic forces.... "they" say that it was just terminology to explain forces that defied comprehension at the time... so we have theads here at GSC about whether or not epilepsy, for example, or cancer are spiritual. Modern medicine is having to deal with all kinds of immune diseases like lupis and we have all kinds of new "scientific" explanations for things like ADD... we're prescribing drugs that manipulate seratonin (sp?) levels in the body. I'm a big believer in medicine and science. I'm also a big believer in the stripes of Jesus.
The array of points-of-view represented on this forum is "deep as a river, high as a mountain"! It has helped me to shed a lot of foolishness, both on the natural side, and on the spiritual. It's all really one, of course. We are both spiritual and physical.
I would like to give you a cut-and-dry anwser from my heart, but it's not in there. I can only tell you where at this point in my journey my heart is settled, and where it questions. First of all, I'm leery of barking, "holy laughter," "slain in the spirit," and prophecies of all kinds (I did read that one you posted "for those who believe in prophesy," by the way... not making a judgement on that, specifically... other than to say I am leery). I'm unconvinced by arguements posted that being slain in the spirit and some of this other stuff is "scriptural." On the other hand, those who are freer thinkers than I have posted some worthy thoughts about re-thinking the meanings of some of these terms in the Bible, and interpreting various practices and beliefs. InvisibleDan and SirGuessalot made some great points. George Aar has a valid point of view (hi, George!). But ultimately, we need somehow to arrive at an authentic response to what is happening around us. We have to accept the limitations of both science and theology to really explain what happened at Columbine and 9/11, and why depression is so prevalent in our society. It's going to take an act of God to make this happen. Man's not going to evolve sufficiently to master it without the Master. He may make some progress, but he'll get rocked the next time around because he'll be so full of himself for being so smart!
The bottom line is that we have real lives, with real families and dogs and jobs, we have real bodies that suffer various afflictions, real yearnings that remain unfulfilled at times. Both religion and science have their answers, sometimes to the exclusion of the other, and once in a while, they are compatible.
Faulty faith is trumped by actual wisdom, but faulty wisdom is trumped by true faith (that is, faith in that which is actually true.) Does God see, and provide? Does He heal? I believe He does. Does He work in the "ministries" of alcholics and perverts? I seriously doubt it. I'm with George on this one. Again, I wish I could just give you an answer that would resolve your conflict and make everything all better. Best I can do is what I've posted here, and to pray for you. A verse that comes to heart is to be wise as a serpent, but harmless as a dove. Don't let psuedo-spiritual practicioners suck you into their void. But don't stop seeking God because of the right-brainers, either. God may not be what the smartest theologians say He is, but He is who He is! And there is a sanity that transcends logic... it's called peace, and joy, and righteousness, and "the holy spirit."
While I pray for you (and the "original dooj") and while I thank God for pond's new job this morning, I pray that there really is power in this earthen vessel, what Roy and one of the Gospel writers calls "virtue." Love never fails!
My confession of faith.
Your deliverance is coming
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Belle
((((Dot)))) I do so hope you know I think the world of you and I think you're a very strong, compassionate and loving woman. I hope that you don't get so wrapped up in this quest of yours that you're easily snookered or miss the red flags that God does send your way. :)
I'm curious, too, if you spend any time getting really quiet - quiet with yourself - meditating, for lack of a better word. Not sitting with your brain going 100 mph over all the things going on in your life and heart, but just getting quiet, sitting and breathing, thinking nothing, of nothing at all, just "in" (breathe) - "out" (breathe).... That's when things get clear for me and, I think, why so many of us have incredible insights while we're in the shower or mindlessly washing dishes.
It's a time when we stop life for a moment and get quiet in our own brains and hearts.
Like cman so eloquently stated.... the answers are usually already within us, it's just getting to that point where we are quiet enough to actually hear that still, small voice, ya know? :wub:
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Dot Matrix
I have worked on quiet seas and I believe that God led me to the church and conference.
I have been to 11 churches over the past years here and they are void of power. The chatter in the halls are about cakes and the like. Nobody is talking about miracles.
This new place is.
I do see fruit.
BUT, I do have problems with some things as I wrote in Slain in the Spirit
thanks Belle!
(((Another Dan))))
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Eyesopen
((((((Dot))))))
It is interesting that you should mention this. I had thought of you as a woman with a gift, specifically the gift of healing as a ministry. I know that I am marginal at it. If I concentrate really hard and am truly wanting to heal someone I can get the mental image that you have described. But it is work for me. You sound like it is something that truly is a part of you. We all have our own gifts and places in the body, so it does not surprise me that you are better at it than I.
So of course I am a bit confused why you would look elsewhere when I see this gift in you from, I think all the way across the country? Am I just going nuts again?
Anyway the strange thing here is, just the other day (Tuesday to be exact) I was on my way to the range to requalify on my GAU (that's machine gun to you civies) when I saw this church that caught my eye. And as clear as day I heard in my soul, "You need to check this out". So I'm thinking, "Why?" Now I think I have my answer. I will check it out and see what I may see.
In the mean time I'm going to see what I may find in way of healing ministries and similar stuff for you.
I have no idea what relevence that story has to this thread, it just came to mind when I read your reply to me.
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Dot Matrix
Sorry, got a call.
Here is what happens with quiet seas...
I am doing okay
I go to a church
I see things I am not used to
My mind says, utto you do not want to get tricked.
BUT
I do not want fear to take away answers.
I have to go look. Pray with me for protection and that I find "it"
Thanks guys
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Dot Matrix
Eyes:
I have been loving the Lord, alone, since I left TWI. With the exception of some folks here and a few “churches” I have tried.
We all need each other to grow and learn.
I am not a researcher AT ALL. Something Wordwolf found in the scriptures, delivered me from a "dog chasing its tail practice," regarding that scripture of prayer and fasting.
I have been praying and whatnot for a long time and the Father has shown me things in my effort to Glom onto him.
BUT
In my own humanness, I have failed not having the body of Christ, to learn from as well. We are a family
I told this before:
There was a girl who came to twig, raped by her father and pregnant. She sat in twig, afraid to remove her coat, as her belly increased in size. One day, after her father had beaten her, she asked me to pray for her.
I did.
I told her, I SAW the baby and it looked fine.
THEN, I discovered she was crazy. She was never assaulted by her Dad, nor was she pregnant. She was tying pillows under her coat.
I was then afraid to minister to people as I felt like a fraud.
Years later, I was speaking with Tim Sulliv@n about this subject, and he told me how God can talk to us in symbolism/pictures.
He asked me what I saw. I told him I saw a see-through baby.
He said, “Like it wasn’t really there.”
And the second time, “I saw a cartoon baby that winked at me.”
He said, “Like it was fake or wasn’t real.”
I missed the symbolism and it stopped me for years….
I needed to learn that from someone else, in the body of Christ, so I could help people. I am willing and need to learn. If A A Allen is a joke, then so-be-it, it does not mean healing is. So, in my quest, if I run across goobers, well "so what," I guess.
(And others, BTW say Allen was lied about and died of a heart attack.)
So, although many times I do not want to RISK getting involved with other Christians, I think it is necessary for growth. I just have to wear my wise as a serpent cap, I imagine.
I hope it makes sense.
And BTW like you, I am being directed to the healing rooms. I will learn what I can
I go alone. Which is okay. But I do not have someone to bounce this off of -- except my phone friend.
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Dot Matrix
another Dan this was also spoken of Allen
Said by a man who travelled with him for six years.And this:
This vison had people calling him drunk
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anotherDan
I see. Thanks, Dot. Things are not always as they appear.
I'm glad you're staying connected, and I feel that God is watching over you. Nothing is more clear to me than that you are precious and beloved to God and to me.
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Dot Matrix
((Another Dan))
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bowtwi
I watched several of those videos and I believe they were truly healed people. I thought the girl was limping before and only for a short time after. I think it was real. I got a kick out of the lady in the wheelchair running behind it, pushing Rev. Allen in it down the ramp. Part of it seemed hokey, but she was up out of the chair and running!
I too believe God would have us healed. I'm excited about the future in terms of what we learn and do with God.
Personally, I'm learning about Jesus right now. After I get a solid understanding there, I'll move on to my next subject which may well be healing. I don't know right now. For right now, I'm just thankful I can open a bible again and enjoy it. TWI falsely accusing my son and me as they did and tossing us out like trash affected me for a long, long time. I'm now getting past all that and see my future in a whole different light than I did the first 10 or 12 years after the m & a.
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Dot Matrix
Thanks Bow for your input
Ya know, in Allen's vison he speaks of the Statue of liberty choking on white smoke,
This could not have been post dated, as he was dead.
I think there are prophets and the like alive and well, I think I missed some in the past, and I do feel we can learn from them.
My friend watched it and truly believes he saw healing as well.
It is nice to learn of and persue Jesus.
In this church I have been going to, during worship service, it is free thinking. They have an area for painters who wish to paint their hearts to God. This is all new to me, but the paintings were gorgeous.
Thinking out of the tiny "way" box is freeing
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Eyesopen
Dot,
It makes perfect sense, and that story that you told was the one that inspired me to reach out even further than I have in recent months.
Since coming to the Spot I have rediscovered the young lady that went out WOW in 82 and was methodically murdered. I have resurrected and reconciled that carefree, God loving, inquisitive and honest person with the calloused, angry, suspicious and guarded person that came home from the Corps. Now I am whole again and looking to understand and heal all the smaller cuts and abrasions.
It was the family here that helped make this possible. As you said it is contact with the body of Christ that helps us learn because we are a family. But there are so many more family members out there in the world that never even heard of twi, and all of us should at some point in time should try to connect with some of them. (That is if we want to be an active member of the body of Christ.)
Seek and you shall find.
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Dot Matrix
By the way the "drunk" label was on him with his visons
And this story!
Yes, eyes
Seeking people outside of the TWI box has lead to great learning.
Please try reading Smith Wigglesworth "Healing"
And tell me what you think.
Perhaps, this can be a family project. Two sisters, and anyone else, learning about healing...
Bow, when you are ready, three sisters
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wrdsandwrks
Agreed!
(((((((((((Dot))))))))))))
Just have time to make a quick comment here because we just got home from church and are heading back out for some "back to school" shopping for the kids. I love that AA Allen video! God is still powerful and wants to heal people. Dot, I believe that you have a real ministry for healing and working of miracles. I'm so glad you're after it. I know that God will protect you and give you discernment.
One of the things we do at church is pray together in small groups of 4 or 5. You never know who you're going to pray with, (except I make sure I'm always with Chuck). Anyway, this moring we turned around to pray with this man and his daughter who looked like 12 but she was 15. Everyone shares what they want to pray for and I asked to pray for my friend (Dot) in At. to find the right church. Anyway, this little girl name Rebecca prayed the most awesome prayer for you and I felt the power of God in that little group. Just wanted you to know that others are praying for you in your search.
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