Wierwille and others deceived many people, and they taught many things claiming a sort of divine mandate, all the while brainwashing their followers into practically worshiping the ground they walk on. I was flipping through the Blue Book earlier tonight, the book Stephanie gave me. I was looking at chapter 14, on Baptism. When I received it from her a few months ago, the first thing I noticed was Wierwille's obvious attempt to sound authoritative. He wanted people to believe him, and succeeded. This is how all cult leaders are, they want to spread their own personal gospel.
It makes me wonder though, if cult leaders actually believe what they preach. The mind of a cult follower is easy to discern...sincere, but sadly brainwashed, to put it simply. The leader on the other hand, is not sincere at all. They may start off sincere in their research (or not?), but they often get corrupted by the thought of becoming a god on earth, having thousands or possibly millions bow before them. If the cult leader is a master of deception, does this make him a megalomaniacal genius, or a brainwashed fool? Does the cult leader brainwash himself in the process of brainwashing others, or is he fully capable of critical thinking, using a form of doublethink to keep his power?
~Phil
I don't know the answer, Phil.
The best I can do is offer my opinion on Wierwille.
In retrospect, I don't really think he honestly believed what he expounded. The progression of his success is too calculated, progressive and intentionally deceptive to have been spontaneous.
On the other hand, I don't think he foresaw how quickly or how large his scheme would grow. Once he saw he was onto something, though, he seized the opportunity with fervor.
If he did believe his own words, it was certainly not evident in his own lifestyle. Biblically speaking, you tend to speak what is in your heart and out of that heart comes the life you manifest. There was an obvious incongruity in this area with Wierwille.
I also think he was quite mentally ill, which may be a separate issue or be inextricably intertwined into the mix.
Wierwille and others deceived many people, and they taught many things claiming a sort of divine mandate, all the while brainwashing their followers into practically worshiping the ground they walk on. I was flipping through the Blue Book earlier tonight, the book Stephanie gave me. I was looking at chapter 14, on Baptism. When I received it from her a few months ago, the first thing I noticed was Wierwille's obvious attempt to sound authoritative. He wanted people to believe him, and succeeded. This is how all cult leaders are, they want to spread their own personal gospel.
It makes me wonder though, if cult leaders actually believe what they preach. The mind of a cult follower is easy to discern...sincere, but sadly brainwashed, to put it simply. The leader on the other hand, is not sincere at all. They may start off sincere in their research (or not?), but they often get corrupted by the thought of becoming a god on earth, having thousands or possibly millions bow before them. If the cult leader is a master of deception, does this make him a megalomaniacal genius, or a brainwashed fool? Does the cult leader brainwash himself in the process of brainwashing others, or is he fully capable of critical thinking, using a form of doublethink to keep his power?
~Phil
In a few cases, you can remove the word "practically" from "practically worshipping the ground they walk on."
vpw definitely wanted to be SEEN as authoritative, and lcm himself documented how he could explode into
sudden angers if he even suspected he wasn't seen that way. If POP accurately reflects his statements,
then- as soon as he wasn't the be-all and end-all of twi- he was deeply troubled and went to cg to vent at
length and say twi was going to collapse. (Of course, he didn't say the reason it would collapse would be
"I'm relegated to a secondary role"...)
From what I've seen-what twi documented vpw himself saying, in a variety of sources, and from direct
comments overheard live by people, and on tapes twi put out where vpw spoke for himself-
I've formed an opinion.
His first exposure to ministry was an "expert" from out of town who travelled in and got lots of respect.
According to vpw, his reaction to that man was to say he wanted to be like him. Through vpw's childhood
and teenage-hood (as reported by neighbors and his own brother), there were no signs whatsoever of
vpw being interested in serving God, in the Bible, in church, in actually WORKING for God.
His brother made an aside that he got in a little trouble, and a neighbor said he was a troublemaker and
caused a lot of fuss to draw attention to himself as a teenager. vpw himself told the Corps that he had
weighed ministry alongside entertainment and business, and selected ministry above the others, as if he
didn't consider any of those PROFESSIONS different from any other.
According to vpw himself, it was at least A YEAR into his work as a minister- and doing weekly sermons-
that he actually BELIEVED THE BIBLE WAS THE WORD OF GOD. According to vpw himself, he considered
quitting as a minister more than once in his first few years of ministry.
Did vpw think himself called to the ministry, to serving God, by God Himself? I think all evidence supports
the position he did NOT, and considered it a comfortable living. He was always seen as having "the gift of gab",
able to talk his way around other people. It can be claimed that this is a strength in ministry.
When vpw studied for the ministry, his chosen area of study was not "Bible languages" not "Church history."
Go ahead, examine his understanding on both subjects. His limits on "Bible languages" was
"whatever George Lamsa and EW Bullinger said", and his understanding of Church history is remarkably shallow.
(You can learn more on the subject nowadays over the internet, and HE went to grad school.)
His chosen specialty was "Homiletics", or PREACHING. Again, the "gift of gab" as a specialty.
Any claims that God spoke to him (in 1942) were first claimed in the early 1970s, and even his wife never
heard any such claim from him in the years between. I defy ANYONE to say they HONESTLY believe a minister
can claim to have heard a fantastic promise of God, NOT be told "keep this secret" (he certainly spread his
claim far and wide), and NOT tell his wife the same day if they were face-to-face and not having some sort
of emergency.
========
So, it seems that the evidence supports a strong case of "he knew he wasn't called of God, he knew he was
faking it, he knew it was a steady job and perks to him" over "he believed God selected him out of all
ministers of that timeframe".
His claims to have learned from God were bolstered by knowledge he had, which other Christians hadn't heard.
This was BG Leonard's class-which he taught and claimed was his own- JE Stiles' book- which he retyped and
claimed was his own- and Bullinger's work- some of which he retyped and claimed was his own,
some of which was credited properly to Bullinger. He was able to impress the "Jesus People" of the late 60s/
early 70s, and "hijack the hippies" with his NEW claims that God spoke to him decades ago, the knowledge
he claimed came from God (plagiarizing the other Christians), and the combination of Leonard's class and
Stiles' book as its textbook. He'd been working with both for several years before he approached the hippies.
The other question raised was: did vpw believe his own hype later in life, or was he fully aware all through
life that he was almost entirely a fraud and taking credit for the work of others? This is a much tougher question.
Was he capable of lying so completely? Yes. He himself said that a salesman who wants to sell you a toothbrush
with only one bristle had to be very sincere to do so. He thought it was possible to be completely SINCERE,
look people in the eye, lie to them, and sell them something of no value.
But DID he lie completely, knowing he was a fraud? It's up to the individual opinion, the evidence can support
either position. Having given it a lot of thought, I personally believe (if I MUST pick a side) that vpw succeeded
in convincing HIMSELF that what he was doing was completely justified, that God was ok with him sinning,
with him doing anything he wanted and forming any pretext to support what he wanted, to-in effect- say that
whatever he wanted to do and say, that God supported it.
It was as early as his approach to the hippies that vpw had already been DOCUMENTED as having done that.
According to J1m D00p himself, vpw tried to find out about ORGIES, and vpw said that God was OK with
ORGIES. To be specific and use the terminology vpw used, he said that God had made that "available",
and that it wasn't BEST, but that it was permitted. He perverted the plain meaning of a handful of verses
in I Corinthians to do so- verses he later taught by PLAIN MEANING to the majority of his "ministry",
and taught his PRIVATE MEANING ("God's ok with fornication") to a handful of insiders, using it as a justification
for manipulating, molesting, and raping young women of God.
According to one person, vpw, when his final weeks dwindled to hours, said he was searching his mind,
desperately trying to find where he'd missed the mark, since God was permitting him to die.
Either vpw was STILL trying to deceive others, or he had completely deceived himself, had told himself God was
fine with all the things he'd done, and was baffled as to why he wasn't able to use his magickal believing powers
to blast his cancer clear of his body. (Of course, his inability to do so-when his most basic doctrines made
this a cinch for a man of his proclaimed "believing" stature- demonstrates rather plainly that his most basic
doctrine of "believing" fails miserably to perform as claimed.)
vpw died as he lived- a fraud who used the name of God as a cloak to cover his vices, his sins, his indulged lusts.
He was swifter to blame God Almighty for his own death than decades of abusing his own body with alcohol and
tobacco, then getting cancer. (According to some people, it's unreasonable for me to suppose that the years
of large amounts of alcohol and tobacco are directly related to him getting cancer afterwards. I leave that to
the individual reader.)
My opinion is that he was a COMPLETE fraud, and-in the end-had succeeded in being a fraud TO HIMSELF as
well as to everyone else, and thought every grandiose idea that went through his mind either came from God
This discussion generates a whole new train of thought for me.
It's a sort of dilemma, really.
You see, in PLAF (The Wonder Class), VPW taught that "fruit of the spirit" was directly resultant from operation of the manifestations. This idea was reinforced in the Intermediate as well as the Advanced Class.
One aspect of FOS (fruit of the spirit) is "longsuffering", which Wierwille said is "patience" or a sense of tolerance, if you will.
Now, when VP was quoting The Apostle Paul as stating, " I thank my God I speak in tongues more than ye all", he used his homiletic skills to imply that he, VPW, himself, spoke in tongues more than any of us, or, at the very least,a great deal.
Yet, we have page after page after page documenting his absolutely explosive and unpredictably impatient and intolerant behavior.
So now here's the dilemma.
1. He really did SIT much but was incorrect in his interpretation of that section of scripture.
(Hence, his credibility is at stake.)
2. He was a blatant fraud.
Either way, it doesn't look too encouraging, folks.
the first thing I noticed was Wierwille's obvious attempt to sound authoritative. He wanted people to believe him, and succeeded. This is how all cult leaders are, they want to spread their own personal gospel.
Nowadays, I am very glad I could never get through those books.
What I find interesting is how often these books were used as references in teachings. VPW was considered a number one authority on everything and a lot of people brought his books along with the Bible to fellowship. We were given the blue book after the foundational class and expected to read it and reading the whole series was an important part of our spiritual understanding if I remember correctly. If we had questions, we were supposed to look at those. So, his gospel effectively continued after his death.
While we obviously will never be able to view what was really going on in the Vicster's brain, I think we can gain a little perspective by looking at someone who's in the same business.
Take a look at mini-MOG, Peter Popoff in action, and how Randi exposed what he was really up to:
So - obviously - Mr. Popoff KNEW he was blowing smoke, but he was able to convince his flock otherwise. I kinda think Mr. Wierwille had a similar mindset. An urgent need to flim-flam so as to attain a lifestyle that he thought he deserved. I really think these sorta guys are mentally defective. They have no capacity for empathy whatsoever, and are capable of anything to get what they want...
Amazing there's another video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxqRN5vjDHQ&NR=1 where it shows that after he was debunked on the Johnny Carson show in 1987 he declared bankruptcy, layed low for a few years, then re-imerged perpetraiting the same schtick in his $23 million dollar ministry in 2005.
It looks like the guy (and his wife and two kids) is willing to put in the time to make millions, he (they) just can't stop being a flim flam man, taking filthy lucre from innocent people hoping for miracles.
Reminds me of someone....and all his Mini Me's he left behind after he died who carry on the legacy......
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waysider
I don't know the answer, Phil.
The best I can do is offer my opinion on Wierwille.
In retrospect, I don't really think he honestly believed what he expounded. The progression of his success is too calculated, progressive and intentionally deceptive to have been spontaneous.
On the other hand, I don't think he foresaw how quickly or how large his scheme would grow. Once he saw he was onto something, though, he seized the opportunity with fervor.
If he did believe his own words, it was certainly not evident in his own lifestyle. Biblically speaking, you tend to speak what is in your heart and out of that heart comes the life you manifest. There was an obvious incongruity in this area with Wierwille.
I also think he was quite mentally ill, which may be a separate issue or be inextricably intertwined into the mix.
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WordWolf
In a few cases, you can remove the word "practically" from "practically worshipping the ground they walk on."
vpw definitely wanted to be SEEN as authoritative, and lcm himself documented how he could explode into
sudden angers if he even suspected he wasn't seen that way. If POP accurately reflects his statements,
then- as soon as he wasn't the be-all and end-all of twi- he was deeply troubled and went to cg to vent at
length and say twi was going to collapse. (Of course, he didn't say the reason it would collapse would be
"I'm relegated to a secondary role"...)
From what I've seen-what twi documented vpw himself saying, in a variety of sources, and from direct
comments overheard live by people, and on tapes twi put out where vpw spoke for himself-
I've formed an opinion.
His first exposure to ministry was an "expert" from out of town who travelled in and got lots of respect.
According to vpw, his reaction to that man was to say he wanted to be like him. Through vpw's childhood
and teenage-hood (as reported by neighbors and his own brother), there were no signs whatsoever of
vpw being interested in serving God, in the Bible, in church, in actually WORKING for God.
His brother made an aside that he got in a little trouble, and a neighbor said he was a troublemaker and
caused a lot of fuss to draw attention to himself as a teenager. vpw himself told the Corps that he had
weighed ministry alongside entertainment and business, and selected ministry above the others, as if he
didn't consider any of those PROFESSIONS different from any other.
According to vpw himself, it was at least A YEAR into his work as a minister- and doing weekly sermons-
that he actually BELIEVED THE BIBLE WAS THE WORD OF GOD. According to vpw himself, he considered
quitting as a minister more than once in his first few years of ministry.
Did vpw think himself called to the ministry, to serving God, by God Himself? I think all evidence supports
the position he did NOT, and considered it a comfortable living. He was always seen as having "the gift of gab",
able to talk his way around other people. It can be claimed that this is a strength in ministry.
When vpw studied for the ministry, his chosen area of study was not "Bible languages" not "Church history."
Go ahead, examine his understanding on both subjects. His limits on "Bible languages" was
"whatever George Lamsa and EW Bullinger said", and his understanding of Church history is remarkably shallow.
(You can learn more on the subject nowadays over the internet, and HE went to grad school.)
His chosen specialty was "Homiletics", or PREACHING. Again, the "gift of gab" as a specialty.
Any claims that God spoke to him (in 1942) were first claimed in the early 1970s, and even his wife never
heard any such claim from him in the years between. I defy ANYONE to say they HONESTLY believe a minister
can claim to have heard a fantastic promise of God, NOT be told "keep this secret" (he certainly spread his
claim far and wide), and NOT tell his wife the same day if they were face-to-face and not having some sort
of emergency.
========
So, it seems that the evidence supports a strong case of "he knew he wasn't called of God, he knew he was
faking it, he knew it was a steady job and perks to him" over "he believed God selected him out of all
ministers of that timeframe".
His claims to have learned from God were bolstered by knowledge he had, which other Christians hadn't heard.
This was BG Leonard's class-which he taught and claimed was his own- JE Stiles' book- which he retyped and
claimed was his own- and Bullinger's work- some of which he retyped and claimed was his own,
some of which was credited properly to Bullinger. He was able to impress the "Jesus People" of the late 60s/
early 70s, and "hijack the hippies" with his NEW claims that God spoke to him decades ago, the knowledge
he claimed came from God (plagiarizing the other Christians), and the combination of Leonard's class and
Stiles' book as its textbook. He'd been working with both for several years before he approached the hippies.
The other question raised was: did vpw believe his own hype later in life, or was he fully aware all through
life that he was almost entirely a fraud and taking credit for the work of others? This is a much tougher question.
Was he capable of lying so completely? Yes. He himself said that a salesman who wants to sell you a toothbrush
with only one bristle had to be very sincere to do so. He thought it was possible to be completely SINCERE,
look people in the eye, lie to them, and sell them something of no value.
But DID he lie completely, knowing he was a fraud? It's up to the individual opinion, the evidence can support
either position. Having given it a lot of thought, I personally believe (if I MUST pick a side) that vpw succeeded
in convincing HIMSELF that what he was doing was completely justified, that God was ok with him sinning,
with him doing anything he wanted and forming any pretext to support what he wanted, to-in effect- say that
whatever he wanted to do and say, that God supported it.
It was as early as his approach to the hippies that vpw had already been DOCUMENTED as having done that.
According to J1m D00p himself, vpw tried to find out about ORGIES, and vpw said that God was OK with
ORGIES. To be specific and use the terminology vpw used, he said that God had made that "available",
and that it wasn't BEST, but that it was permitted. He perverted the plain meaning of a handful of verses
in I Corinthians to do so- verses he later taught by PLAIN MEANING to the majority of his "ministry",
and taught his PRIVATE MEANING ("God's ok with fornication") to a handful of insiders, using it as a justification
for manipulating, molesting, and raping young women of God.
According to one person, vpw, when his final weeks dwindled to hours, said he was searching his mind,
desperately trying to find where he'd missed the mark, since God was permitting him to die.
Either vpw was STILL trying to deceive others, or he had completely deceived himself, had told himself God was
fine with all the things he'd done, and was baffled as to why he wasn't able to use his magickal believing powers
to blast his cancer clear of his body. (Of course, his inability to do so-when his most basic doctrines made
this a cinch for a man of his proclaimed "believing" stature- demonstrates rather plainly that his most basic
doctrine of "believing" fails miserably to perform as claimed.)
vpw died as he lived- a fraud who used the name of God as a cloak to cover his vices, his sins, his indulged lusts.
He was swifter to blame God Almighty for his own death than decades of abusing his own body with alcohol and
tobacco, then getting cancer. (According to some people, it's unreasonable for me to suppose that the years
of large amounts of alcohol and tobacco are directly related to him getting cancer afterwards. I leave that to
the individual reader.)
My opinion is that he was a COMPLETE fraud, and-in the end-had succeeded in being a fraud TO HIMSELF as
well as to everyone else, and thought every grandiose idea that went through his mind either came from God
or was endorsed by God.
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waysider
This discussion generates a whole new train of thought for me.
It's a sort of dilemma, really.
You see, in PLAF (The Wonder Class), VPW taught that "fruit of the spirit" was directly resultant from operation of the manifestations. This idea was reinforced in the Intermediate as well as the Advanced Class.
One aspect of FOS (fruit of the spirit) is "longsuffering", which Wierwille said is "patience" or a sense of tolerance, if you will.
Now, when VP was quoting The Apostle Paul as stating, " I thank my God I speak in tongues more than ye all", he used his homiletic skills to imply that he, VPW, himself, spoke in tongues more than any of us, or, at the very least,a great deal.
Yet, we have page after page after page documenting his absolutely explosive and unpredictably impatient and intolerant behavior.
So now here's the dilemma.
1. He really did SIT much but was incorrect in his interpretation of that section of scripture.
(Hence, his credibility is at stake.)
2. He was a blatant fraud.
Either way, it doesn't look too encouraging, folks.
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kenwas
Nowadays, I am very glad I could never get through those books.
What I find interesting is how often these books were used as references in teachings. VPW was considered a number one authority on everything and a lot of people brought his books along with the Bible to fellowship. We were given the blue book after the foundational class and expected to read it and reading the whole series was an important part of our spiritual understanding if I remember correctly. If we had questions, we were supposed to look at those. So, his gospel effectively continued after his death.
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George Aar
While we obviously will never be able to view what was really going on in the Vicster's brain, I think we can gain a little perspective by looking at someone who's in the same business.
Take a look at mini-MOG, Peter Popoff in action, and how Randi exposed what he was really up to:
So - obviously - Mr. Popoff KNEW he was blowing smoke, but he was able to convince his flock otherwise. I kinda think Mr. Wierwille had a similar mindset. An urgent need to flim-flam so as to attain a lifestyle that he thought he deserved. I really think these sorta guys are mentally defective. They have no capacity for empathy whatsoever, and are capable of anything to get what they want...
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now I see
Amazing there's another video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxqRN5vjDHQ&NR=1 where it shows that after he was debunked on the Johnny Carson show in 1987 he declared bankruptcy, layed low for a few years, then re-imerged perpetraiting the same schtick in his $23 million dollar ministry in 2005.
It looks like the guy (and his wife and two kids) is willing to put in the time to make millions, he (they) just can't stop being a flim flam man, taking filthy lucre from innocent people hoping for miracles.
Reminds me of someone....and all his Mini Me's he left behind after he died who carry on the legacy......
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