My belief system is not about me at all. . . perhaps I don't make that clear. . . it is about Jesus. . . but you seem overly concerned with that belief system somehow encroaching upon yours.
While speaking of DOCTRINAL issues in a DOCTRINAL forum on an ex-cult site in a thread about the bible, Jesus, or prayer. . . may or may not seem like boundry hopping to you. . . I must internally question that logic.
You reject Christianity as your faith. You clearly have articulated that you stand by your words. . . with no fear or trepidation. I CAN respect that. Got it. . .
I articulate my faith. . . what you believe . . . you have articulated. . . I can respect your choice, but don't have to repect your faith as it runs contrary to what I truly believe. That means Bramble. . . my entire---complete---and all encompassing world view.
An objective truth. Meaning. . . truth with a corresponding object. . . which by its very nature rejects all other opposing or alternate objects.
There you have it
Seems to me. . . you have a very difficult time respecting my choice. . . which appears to be offensive to you. . .no surprize. . . the bible speaks of this very thing.
I have NO desire to offer you or others who reject Him. . . the Holy things of God. You have made clear you don't want them. They are not FOR you. They do not belong to you. . They belong to those who believe on Him.
Am I clear enough?
Let me articulate with the words of Jesus. . .
"Never give what is holy to dogs or throw your pearls before pigs. Otherwise, they will trample them with their feet and then turn around and attack you."
Just to add: It in no way is surprizing to me that you have an opinion about a faith and community you reject. . . but if you would take note. . . although I reject your faith. . . other than a clear rejection of it. . . I offer no insight into it or opinion of it. . . you are certainly free to participate in a conversation about the Christian faith and what you perceive its weakness or strength. . . I am free to wonder why you would?
Dear ((((Bramble and Kimberly and Anyone))))) else concerned,
Prayer is a conversation with GOD to beseech HIM to help with any needs in any persons life whether they are spiritual, physical or mental. When you were in TWI you probably learned that in The Word of GOD. We Christians are exhorted to pray for all (without exception) men and to pray without ceasing...and regardless of TWI's faults and misinterpretations; The Word of GOD states this clearly throughout.
Prayer has no boundaries because it is between the one praying and GOD; and only GOD can answer prayers in His own manner.
Respect is a two - way street. In many ways pagans and Wiccan have insulted and disrespected GOD, Christians and Christianity at times openly in threads and posts with their remarks. This is in essence completely expected as they are diametrically opposing doctrines. A Christian can only respond as a Christian and likewise a Wiccan and a Pagan can also only respond in kind.
What does GOD say about Witch craft and Idolatry? You would be appalled and offended if I were to provide the scriptural references, I am quite sure. They are opposing doctrines; and anyone who cannot clearly see that is not a workman of GOD’s Word. God is the epitome of Holiness; and He is only tolerant in this "Age of Grace" to give man his day; Yet scripturally, that in no way indicates that GOD respects or tolerates the doctrines of men…quite the contrary…the scripture is plain.
The only scripture I would like to discuss here is the following context of the verse that Geisha quoted:
Mat 7:6
Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
Jesus was instructing and teaching his disciples and followers:
1
. Give not that which is holy – GOD says that His word is Holy; as Holy as God is Holy and that He magnifies it to His Children by setting it above His own absolute Holiness.
2
. Unto the dogs – they were scavengers and feed the crumbs underneath their masters table
3.
Neither cast your pearls - Pearls are the knowledge , wisdom, understanding and practical application of the Word of GOD…why because:
1Cr 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
4.
Before swine – Jesus’ statement here is figurative and empathic and indicative of the nature of swine. Swine will feast on anything. This is a comparison between the opposing pagan doctrines of men. Pagans notoriously are attracted to and accepting of many manmade doctrines throughout their lifetimes and tend to be very tolerant of pluralistic thinking and multiple doctrines. They are seeking a belief system and view GOD as harsh hateful, intolerance and cruel at odds with their choices.
They seem to over value this being man’s day to the utmost…this is my humble opinion anyway…Partaking of God’s goodness’s to all without regard to his Will or doctrine, reproof and instruction. Man’s Will is done in Man’s Day by God’s allowance of free will choice and likewise, GOD will have HIS Day when HIS Will, will be done.
5.
Lest they trample them under their feet and turn again and render you - opposing doctrines natural cause division, stress, endless debates. Be not unequally yoked together, because there is no equally of doctrine…there is only opposition. There is personal respect and genuine Godly love and concern and compassion from a Christian standpoint and prayers are genuine. Jesus laid down HIS LIFE FOR ALL WITHOUT EXCEPTION OF MANKIND…There is no greater love!!! GOD loves everyone and hopes that ALL men might be saved!!! We Christians are imitators of GOD!!!
Gal 5:15
But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
Psa 138:2
I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name
Mat 7:1
Judge not, that ye be not judged.
GOD is the only Judge and judgement is also a two way street.
Christians’ are not judging pagans they are standing up for GOD from a Godly viewpoint, in a Godly manner!
Mat 7:2
For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
Mat 7:3
And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
This applies to all the contentions and accusations
Mat 7:4
Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam [is] in thine own eye?
Mat 7:5
Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
Mat 7:6
Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
Mat 7:7
Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Mat 7:8
For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
Mat 7:9
Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
Mat 7:10
Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
Mat 7:11
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
Mat 7:12
Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
Geisha and her husband are very close and dear friends of mine yet, I have fairly and without partiality examined her post in a Godly scriptural manner, and Bramble and Kimberly or Anyone else, I don’t see her remarks as a personal attack and I don’t see any reason for her to apologize for being a Christian!!! She is not expecting nor hoping for an apology from either of you or anyone else. On the contrary to your views of her intents I have always seen her bend our backwards with true and genuine grace , love and compassion for ALL!!!
Excuse me, are you capitalizing "God" out of respect, or emphasis?
... to beseech HIM to help with any needs in any persons life whether they are spiritual, physical or mental.
Yup, got that. This is not news.
When you were in TWI you probably learned that in The Word of GOD.
I learned it in & out of TWI
We Christians are exhorted to pray for all (without exception) men and to pray without ceasing...and regardless of TWI's faults and misinterpretations; The Word of GOD states this clearly throughout.
So pray. In what verse does it say that you have to tell us that you're praying for us?
Prayer has no boundaries because it is between the one praying and GOD; and only GOD can answer prayers in His own manner.
Agreed. Pray, pray without ceasing, but when you tell me that you're praying for me, usually it's prosylitizing (sp?).
But let me make a distinction here: when a Christian, or any other person tells me that they're praying for my health, or anything like that, I usually just smile and say thanks. When they tell me that they're praying for my soul, i.e. that my beliefs or lifestyle are wrong, then I feel that I have every reason to be annoyed.
Respect is a two - way street. In many ways pagans and Wiccan have insulted and disrespected GOD, Christians and Christianity at times openly in threads and posts with their remarks. This is in essence completely expected as they are diametrically opposing doctrines. A Christian can only respond as a Christian and likewise a Wiccan and a Pagan can also only respond in kind.
I agree, respect is a two way street. Where have pagans and Wiccans insulted your god? To my knowledge there are only two of us who regularly post here. Could you give examples of the insults and disrespect?
What does GOD say about Witch craft and Idolatry?
I've seen what your bible says, which may or may not be what your god thinks about it. Your god wants everybody to worship him and is jealous of any worship extended to other gods. Your bible wrongly equates worship of other gods with worship of the idols that they represent. I would guess that your god has the same attitude about witchcraft because it involves depending on power that doesn't derive from him, although I've seen sources (not at my fingertips right now) that claim that "witch" should be translated "poisoner", so I guess if I'm not a poisoner, I'm okay with your god.
You would be appalled and offended if I were to provide the scriptural references,
Appalled no, offended yes.
I am quite sure. They are opposing doctrines; and anyone who cannot clearly see that is not a workman of GOD’s Word. God is the epitome of Holiness; and He is only tolerant in this "Age of Grace" to give man his day; Yet scripturally, that in no way indicates that GOD respects or tolerates the doctrines of men…quite the contrary…the scripture is plain.
That all makes sense if you believe your holy book, for those of us who don't, it's just insulting.
Geisha and her husband are very close and dear friends of mine yet, I have fairly and without partiality examined her post in a Godly scriptural manner, ...
I dispute that you can examine anything on this subject without partiality, you are biased toward the biblical point of view...not that there's anything wrong with that
I jumped in here even though I am not the one being addressed and am not one who asked for an apology.
I am not surprised when certain Christians compare me to swine and dogs and insist that I am going to a fictional hell. I am not surprised when these same Christians look down their noses at us. Not surprised, but insulted just the same. I view Christianity the same way I view any other faith (or lack of faith), a personal choice that makes the Christian neither superior nor inferior to me, a path that works for that person, and brings comfort to that person; personal choices that I don't have the right or the expertise to judge. Yet those same people presume to judge me, as well as follwers of others faiths, plus atheists, agnostics et al.
This thread is challenging for me because I respect everyone involved.
I have to admit that along with Kimberly I've been waiting for Geisha to simply say something like, "Gee, I can understand why you might be offended by my reference in your direction when I used the word "swine." Speaking for myself, it just doesn't seem like the kind of thing that I would have a problem with.
But as long as the topic of talking to people who don't share my faith in Christ has been brought up, along with Bible verses, I'd like to share a couple.....
Acts 19:37
In this verse, an impartial judge counts the believers under Paul's leadership as not having spoken against the goddess Dianna. I perceive great wisdom in this. I think that if Paul was the aggressor in Ephesus he could have been blamed, but he was not blamed. The aggressors were the craftsman who were afraid that the changes in Ephesus' culture would rob them of their trade. I think that what Paul had in his heart was the exhortations to be as wise as serpents but harmless as doves. Or perhaps the turn the other cheek exhortation which my Lamsa Bible list as an Aramaic idiom that means to not brawl.
1 Co 5:12,13
Paul plainly says that God will judge those that are outside of the church along with questioning why should he judge the outsiders. Paul seemed willing to teach the believers to grow up and handle things inside the church rightly, but to leave the unbelievers alone. As a believer, I think that it is highly likely that anyone other than a Christain may likely speak against our beliefs even as the scriptures say that the things of the spirit are foolishness to the natural man. But if because of that verse I WERE TO CALL AN UNBELIEVER A FOOL I would count myself to be the offender for going against the more subtle verses.
I feel that a sound case for these things being offensive are being made outside of the scriptures in this thread. It's just that I happen to believe that the scriptural exhortations really do agree with them as it applies to a believer walking with wisdom.
Now, as it relates to some of you, you've been around a lot longer than I have and I'm certain that there is a history here that I don't know anything about. But as things relate to this conversation, I do not see that anyone is asking for an apology for being a Christain. If I saw that I would clearly be rooting for the other side.
But this issue of accidentally (or not) referring to someone else as a pig is not anything that the Lord did or any of the apostles that I've seen. As a matter of fact the exhortation to not offend anybody seems to apply to a "T."
Dear Geisha,
Please, I think that the Lord can and will fight his own battles if he's offended. But look at what he put up with (the crucifixion) for all of our sakes.
I did not ask anyone for an apology. I though Kimberly was trying to smooth troubled waters and wanted to acknowledge her kindness.
I do think refering to another person as swine is insulting, and the fact that it is in the Bible doesn't make it acceptable to me. But then, I was in TWI. I saw lots of ugly things wrapped in Bible verses, The Bible verses didn't make everything okay.
Prayer should be an act of love,and love goes hand in hand with respect as far as I'm concerned. While I can't make anyone do anything or not do anything, I can state my opinion. In my beliefs, my health, well being etc are best helped by those who pray for me with whole hearted love. Intent involves the deep matters of the heart.
I spent twenty years in TWI. I've read the Bible. I've gone to churches outside TWI. I was raised Roman Catholic, school and college(which I know is not Christian enough for some Christians). I didn't quit being a Christian because I hated it so very much but because I found something that spoke to me more deeply.
I know what the Bible says about witchcraft. The Bible witchcraft/ poisoner/practitioner has no relevancy to my beliefs, though you may disagree.
Where have I insulted the Christian God? Other than not being Christian and not pretending to be. And I am very sure you might find something I wrote in a snit but I doubt you'll find anything like that attributed to Oakspear. We are not joined at the hip and have actually never met and could even have different thoughts and reactions!
Prayer is a conversation with GOD...Excuse me, are you capitalizing "God" out of respect, or emphasis?
Both Oak
QUOTE
... to beseech HIM to help with any needs in any persons life whether they are spiritual, physical or mental.Yup, got that. This is not news.
I was fairly sure it wasn't new to You
QUOTE
When you were in TWI you probably learned that in The Word of GOD.I learned it in & out of TWI
Me too!!!
QUOTE
We Christians are exhorted to pray for all (without exception) men and to pray without ceasing...and regardless of TWI's faults and misinterpretations; The Word of GOD states this clearly throughout.So pray. In what verse does it say that you have to tell us that you're praying for us?
I don't recall any verse that requires a Christan to inform you that we are praying for You or Your soul...I think that it is optional. This brings a question to my mind that I hope that You might answer: Why would it bother You if anyone is praying for Your soul ??? You have at the very least an intellectual knowledge of GOD and Christianity there fore you know full well that this a common practice in Christianity and that it is GOD's desire that we demonstrate HIS Love and HIS Will
Except, I wish that You recognized that it isn't done with disdain or persecution or merely to convert by proselytizing.
When I pray for someones Soul this is what is in my heart: First of all Godly Love. Next of all Godly Compassion, then Hope.. I am thinking, that we both believe differently and we both are convinced to some degree that what we live and believe is the truth.
I can only speak for myself , but personally I believe GOD is the absolute truth. I am just sharing my heart now Oak; so then I think of the justice and judgment of GOD and Eternity and why wouldn't I pray for any one's soul to be saved from eternally being in hell??? If it were You in my shoes and me in Your's...both of us being human both of us having an understand of some of differences between right and wrong or good and evil. Would you not pray for my soul that I would not spend eternity in hell??? It isn't a place that I would want to go to or see anyone go to for ...eternity.....
The difference between us is that I Love GOD and believe Him and You don't Love GOD. He at the very least angers, offends and convicts You with His Word,
How can it hurt or offend you so if You have abandoned GOD and His Word and believe that He is only one of many gods and not a very nice one and from Your perspective jealous, cruel, unjust and unloving.
Is it because You know that He exists and that He will perform His Word and cast some to hell?
You get to choose to dislike or hate him or even believe that He does not exist. If I didn't believe in GOD it would be foolish and ludicrous and very harmless if anyone in a loving way prayed for my soul or not; If I was totally convinced and convicted in my beliefs. Why is it that You can never focus on GOD's Love, Mercy and Grace and only rather HIS Judgment and Justice???
True Christan's don't thro GOD or His Word unloving in pagans faces, nor do they feel in any way superior to them. The difference is that a Christan recognizes GOD in a Christan way and repents to GOD personally and lives that standard and a Pagan rejects Christianity and lives in a pagan way and opposes repentance. We ALL choose. It would break my heart and I have permission to add Geisha's to know anyone that is condemned to hell.
QUOTE
Prayer has no boundaries because it is between the one praying and GOD; and only GOD can answer prayers in His own manner.Agreed. Pray, pray without ceasing, but when you tell me that you're praying for me, usually it's proselytizing (sp?).
The spoken and written Word of GOD speaks in the form of doctrine reproof and correction. In all the doctrinal threads that any nonbeliever in The God of the Bible have posted in I have only seen contempt, anger, disdain and judgment toward GOD, no attempt is ever made to recognize His Love, Goodness , Mercy, Justice, Fairness of His Word and Will as a whole. Even when I am being fair and impartial with Geisha's post and at length present it scripturally for you in Love. You directly are ignoring the obvious and malign and impugning Jesus for saying it and further use it to state you are being persecuted by Christan's and Christianity. In this thread alone lie Your examples...the one's You request!!!
But let me make a distinction here: when a Christian, or any other person tells me that they're praying for my health, or anything like that, I usually just smile and say thanks. When they tell me that they're praying for my soul, i.e. that my beliefs or lifestyle are wrong, then I feel that I have every reason to be annoyed.
This is address above
QUOTE
Respect is a two - way street. In many ways pagans and Wiccan have insulted and disrespected GOD, Christians and Christianity at times openly in threads and posts with their remarks. This is in essence completely expected as they are diametrically opposing doctrines. A Christian can only respond as a Christian and likewise a Wiccan and a Pagan can also only respond in kind.I agree, respect is a two way street. Where have pagans and Wiccans insulted your god? To my knowledge there are only two of us who regularly post here. Could you give examples of the insults and disrespect?
This is also addressed in the above replies
QUOTE
What does GOD say about Witch craft and Idolatry?I've seen what your bible says, which may or may not be what your god thinks about it. Your god wants everybody to worship him and is jealous of any worship extended to other gods. Your bible wrongly equates worship of other gods with worship of the idols that they represent. I would guess that your god has the same attitude about witchcraft because it involves depending on power that doesn't derive from him, although I've seen sources (not at my fingertips right now) that claim that "witch" should be translated "poisoner", so I guess if I'm not a poisoner, I'm okay with your god.
This is accusative and maligning and impugning of my GOD...an example
QUOTE
You would be appalled and offended if I were to provide the scriptural references,Appalled no, offended yes.
Take that up with GOD as I have never attack You or Your beliefs...the Word of GOD that I speak and write is from GOD although I whole heartedly believe it I don't attack You with it and neither by the way does GOD attack You with it GOD's purpose is Salvation for ALL mankind!!!
QUOTE
I am quite sure. They are opposing doctrines; and anyone who cannot clearly see that is not a workman of GOD’s Word. God is the epitome of Holiness; and He is only tolerant in this "Age of Grace" to give man his day; Yet scripturally, that in no way indicates that GOD respects or tolerates the doctrines of men…quite the contrary…the scripture is plain.That all makes sense if you believe your holy book, for those of us who don't, it's just insulting.
Concerning GOD and HIS Word You have tunnel vision and selectively seeing only in part and only what You want to see. I am never happy to see anyone twist GOD's Word or blame GOD for their personal viewpoints or trials, tribulations and consequences.
QUOTE
Geisha and her husband are very close and dear friends of mine yet, I have fairly and without partiality examined her post in a Godly scriptural manner, ...I dispute that you can examine anything on this subject without partiality, you are biased toward the biblical point of view...not that there's anything wrong with that
Only a blind man would say without evidence that my rely was biased to Geisha's post because of my biblical point of view as a Christian
I jumped in here even though I am not the one being addressed and am not one who asked for an apology.
I am not surprised when certain Christians compare me to swine and dogs and insist that I am going to a fictional hell. I am not surprised when these same Christians look down their noses at us. Not surprised, but insulted just the same. I view Christianity the same way I view any other faith (or lack of faith), a personal choice that makes the Christian neither superior nor inferior to me, a path that works for that person, and brings comfort to that person; personal choices that I don't have the right or the expertise to judge. Yet those same people presume to judge me, as well as followers of others faiths, plus atheists, agnostics et al.
(sp?).
I am truly truly very sorry Oak and Anyone else who feels this way or believes this that You're perspective of GOD, Christianity and Christain is so clouded and jaded
But let me make a distinction here: when a Christian, or any other person tells me that they're praying for my health, or anything like that, I usually just smile and say thanks. When they tell me that they're praying for my soul, i.e. that my beliefs or lifestyle are wrong, then I feel that I have every reason to be annoyed.
I don't recall any verse that requires a Christan to inform you that we are praying for You or Your soul...I think that it is optional.
Cool! Then please "opt out" of telling me about it
This brings a question to my mind that I hope that You might answer: Why would it bother You if anyone is praying for Your soul ??? You have at the very least an intellectual knowledge of GOD and Christianity there fore you know full well that this a common practice in Christianity and that it is GOD's desire that we demonstrate HIS Love and HIS Will
It bothers me, and I think that I have answered this before, because it demonstrates a belief on the part of the person praying that there is something inferior about my beliefs and lifestyle compared to the beliefs and lifestyle of the one praying. It doesn't hurt me, but it insults and offends me.
...why wouldn't I pray for any one's soul to be saved from eternally being in hell???
Don't get me wrong, I understand why you do it, because you feel that the beliefs and/or lifestyle of the one that you pray for are somehow inferior to your own and therefore worthy of hell unless they are changed to your beliefs.
If it were You in my shoes and me in Your's...both of us being human both of us having an understand of some of differences between right and wrong or good and evil. Would you not pray for my soul that I would not spend eternity in hell??? It isn't a place that I would want to go to or see anyone go to for ...eternity.....
Ah, but I'm not in your shoes and don't believe that your beliefs and/or lifestyle will get you hooked up to eternal damnation if you don't change to mine. I can intellectually understand where you are coming from, that doesn't mean I don't find it offensive.
More to come...I don't want to make these posts too long. If you're logged in, can you refrain from answering until I get all the way through?
The difference between us is that I Love GOD and believe Him and You don't Love GOD. He at the very least angers, offends and convicts You with His Word,
Part of what you say is correct. I don't love the god who is described in the bible and you do.
He does not anger me or offend me, because he has not personally one-on-one done anything to anger and offend me. Some of his followers have.
How can it hurt or offend you so if You have abandoned GOD and His Word and believe that He is only one of many gods and not a very nice one and from Your perspective jealous, cruel, unjust and unloving.
I'm sorry, where have I used the words cruel, unjust, or unloving? I believe I used the word "jealous", because that is a word that the bible uses to describe him. Why would you have a problem with a word that, according to the bible, your god uses to describe himself?
Is it because You know that He exists and that He will perform His Word and cast some to hell?
No, that is incorrect.
You get to choose to dislike or hate him or even believe that He does not exist. If I didn't believe in GOD it would be foolish and ludicrous and very harmless if anyone in a loving way prayed for my soul or not; If I was totally convinced and convicted in my beliefs.
It is harmless to me also if someone in my neighborhood thinks I'm ugly, yet if he was to tell me that, I'd probably be offended, true or not.
Why is it that You can never focus on GOD's Love, Mercy and Grace and only rather HIS Judgment and Justice???
Actually I find those attributes aplenty in the god who is described in the gospels, despite his son's use of "swine" . I find Christianity, when practiced according to Jesus' words, usually a very loving religion. I find much good in Christianity, and honor and look up to many Christians in my personal life.
True Christan's don't thro GOD or His Word unloving in pagans faces, nor do they feel in any way superior to them.
You could have fooled me. It looks like that's exactly what's being done!
The difference is that a Christan recognizes GOD in a Christan way and repents to GOD personally and lives that standard and a Pagan rejects Christianity and lives in a pagan way and opposes repentance.
Lives in a pagan way? What's that? Not too many people could tell the difference between a Christian and a pagan just by the way they lived their lives, or a Christian and an atheist, or a Buddhist for that matter.
The spoken and written Word of GOD speaks in the form of doctrine reproof and correction. In all the doctrinal threads that any nonbeliever in The God of the Bible have posted in I have only seen contempt, anger, disdain and judgment toward GOD, no attempt is ever made to recognize His Love, Goodness , Mercy, Justice, Fairness of His Word and Will as a whole.
That's true sometimes, but not always. You're generalizing.
You directly are ignoring the obvious...
Huh? :huh: What is the "obvious" that I'm ignoring?
...and malign and impugning Jesus for saying it...
What? I didn't malign or impugn Jesus!
...and further use it to state you are being persecuted by Christan's and Christianity.
I don't believe that I am being persecuted by Christians and Christianity. Please point out where I said that.
In this thread alone lie Your examples...the one's You request!!!
What does GOD say about Witch craft and Idolatry?I've seen what your bible says, which may or may not be what your god thinks about it. Your god wants everybody to worship him and is jealous of any worship extended to other gods. Your bible wrongly equates worship of other gods with worship of the idols that they represent. I would guess that your god has the same attitude about witchcraft because it involves depending on power that doesn't derive from him, although I've seen sources (not at my fingertips right now) that claim that "witch" should be translated "poisoner", so I guess if I'm not a poisoner, I'm okay with your god.
This is accusative and maligning and impugning of my GOD...an example
Let's see, I said
I don't necessarily believe that your bible accurately represents what god thinks - that's not maligning your god, just questioning some of his followers
Your god wants everyone to worship him, isn't that true? Isn't that what the whole bible is about?
That he is jealous of worship extended to other gods - the bible says that that's what your god says - why get offended at me? I didn't write the book
That worship of other gods does not equal worshipping the idols that they represent - sorry, but pagans never worshipped the actual idol, but the god that it represented
It seems to me that god doesn't like witchcraft because it is a different power, or "god" - what's wrong with that?
and I questioned the English translations' correctness in translated a certain Hebrew word as "witch"
- I don't see any maligning in there :blink:
Take that up with GOD as I have never attack You or Your beliefs...the Word of GOD that I speak and write is from GOD although I whole heartedly believe it I don't attack You with it and neither by the way does GOD attack You with it GOD's purpose is Salvation for ALL mankind!!!
Right, it's not my fault, God says it. Take some responsibility for what you say.
Concerning GOD and HIS Word You have tunnel vision and selectively seeing only in part and only what You want to see. I am never happy to see anyone twist GOD's Word or blame GOD for their personal viewpoints or trials, tribulations and consequences.
i think that you have me confused with someone else. I'm not blaming your god for anything.
Only a blind man would say without evidence that my rely was biased to Geisha's post because of my biblical point of view as a Christian
You are getting dangerously close to making this personal. No need to call names.
by Oakspear:
I am not surprised when certain Christians compare me to swine and dogs and insist that I am going to a fictional hell. I am not surprised when these same Christians look down their noses at us. Not surprised, but insulted just the same. I view Christianity the same way I view any other faith (or lack of faith), a personal choice that makes the Christian neither superior nor inferior to me, a path that works for that person, and brings comfort to that person; personal choices that I don't have the right or the expertise to judge. Yet those same people presume to judge me, as well as followers of others faiths, plus atheists, agnostics et al.
I am truly truly very sorry Oak and Anyone else who feels this way or believes this that You're perspective of GOD, Christianity and Christain is so clouded and jaded
Did you even read what I wrote?
That's about it. I would suggest that you actually read what I write rather than reading into it.
LOL My goodness I am popular. RG told me this was here. . . .and thanks RG for the lovely posts and including me in yours!!
NOW. . . . let's see. . .
Are we STILL complaining about being prayed for? Well, don't really HAVE a response to that. I do appreciate that Oakspear saw the humor. . . intended. . .
Hmmm not sure here. Kimberly is waiting for me to apologize to Bramble assuming I used scripture to hurt --- Jeff is pleading with me for. . . something?
Am I to apologize for quoting Jesus to make a point or for praying for a woman's health? Catch me up guys. You don't want me to proselytze. . . which I have been overly careful not to do. . . I guess asking you Bramble a simple question and giving the option to answer or not could on some planet somewhere be called proselytizing. Maybe.
When I make clear I have no desire to share the Christian faith with her(WHICH SHE DOESN"T WANT). . . I offend her by articulating my point with the words of the Savior. By the way, it is not like you illustrated my point or anything.
What is it you want. . . tell me. . . would you like me to strip down to my birthday suit and dance under the pale moonlight? Would you like me to change my belief system? Would you like me to not express my faith on the doctrinal forums in a thread about Jesus?
Not really sure here, but seems a bit of overkill. But, since it seems you REALLY are curious and my absence has caused a plethora of assumption let me once again bare my heart.
Now, consider this whatever you will.
Jesus loves you. Really loves you. I love you too. So much so, I truly do want you to have a relationship with Him. BUT, if you want something else. . . that is what you will get.
Your choice. God isn't going to send you to hell. . . you have chosen what you want and it is not Him. You have chosen. . . by your free-will.
BUT, since JEff has pleaded I am going to assume He wants this. . .
The bible tells us that we all sin and fall short of the Glory of God. Do you know. . . that includes Christians. It includes me. I am a sinner. . . How do we know that we are sinners. . . well, besides the bible? There is a moral code written on your hearts. Each of us knows right from wrong. . . it is wrong to hurt others. . . if there be no harm. . . do no harm. . . what defines harm? Where does that come from? It comes from God. His law written on our hearts.
Yet, at one time or another, we have done harm. We are human. . . . so, we have sinned. Fallen short of the Glory of God. . . . Now, what does that mean. . . it means that a God who spoke creation into being. . . has to be Holy. . . Perfect. . . and good. It is not too difficult to look rough next to perfection.
God KNOWS this. Because He loves us. . . He made a way to be reconciled to Him. Through His Son. You see, most Christians believe that Jesus is God. . . that He came here to earth and dwelt among us. Lived a perfect life. . . sinless and then died for us. . . was raised.......so that we might live in Him.
Why did He need to die so that we could live. Well, again the Holiness of God. His wrath had to be satisfied. . . not because He is mean. . . .but because of the offense against Him. Not only is the love of God displayed in Jesus so is the wrath of God. You cannot offend or approach such holiness and perfection. I guess you really have to consider what such a being might be like. Why HE would not tolerate the worship of something else. He is also a paradox. . . a wonderful paradox that takes everything in your life and turns it on its ear. The first will be last. . . the meek shall inherit. . .
Anyway. . . He does love us and didn't leave us without a way. He did it without us. . . our part was to kill Jesus. Yet, He made a way. He took the thing that was Holy and perfect and He loved and sacrificed it so that we might now approach Him. . . have a relationship with Him. In fact, it is a more personal relationship because it is a person. The person of Jesus.
All He asks is that we believe. Now, since He went to all that trouble for us. . . seems little to ask. Especially when you get so much in return. . . we are saved. . . from judgement. . . God is a judge. . . .
No one will be able to speak anything against Him on that day. Everyone will have to confess He is Lord. Every knee will bow. . . I choose to bow mine now..
But, we are free to reject the offer He makes. I just hope we do it with the utmost thought and care. . . you see, I really do believe this gospel message.
Now. . . the bible NEVER defends the existence of God. . . it declares it. . . .the same bible which has been declared irrelevant so many times. . . the same bible that will be here once we are gone to our just reward. It declares . . . the same God whose death knell has been rang by those now worm food. . . the same Jesus we still talk about today. . . the same God who men have been wrestling with for a very long time. . . It also declares a great a powerful love. . . in the gospel message and the person of Jesus. Very cool guy BTW.
So naming posters of a different belief 'swine' on GSC is an acceptable thing because it is in the Bible? Is this something like 'speaking the truth in love'?
Think about it--Does anyone think of you as a swine? How do (Or would) you feel about them? Do their prayers for you warm your heart?
As far as praying for my soul...I know the Christian concept of soul but I don't personally hold that belief in soul.To me that translates as praying for my mind/will because I see myself as one piece--no body and soul or body soul and spirit. I am one entity, me.
People who love me think well of me, even with my imperfections. Those are the ones who really pray for me.
`My views on prayer differ from yours.
If the intent of the prayer is my health, great, obviously I want to be healthy--but if you actually view me as say, swine, ungodly, in need of changing beliefs and gods, then my view is that your prayer may not be in my best interest because your view of me is much different than my view of myself.
Also, a common Wiccan or pagan thought on prayer that is against the will of the person being prayed for--say to change their religion/ beliefs to a different belief/truth-- is that is a manipulative act and brings the same back to you.
I personally think that my adhearance to the belief that I should change others, held during my TWI years, brought some ugly repercussions into my life. Call it karma, or the law of returns or reap what you sow--I was zealous to change people, acted and prayed on that intent, and then had to live through people trying to change me, in a more intense way.
While I don't want people praying for me to change beliefs etc, I obviously can't stop them, I know it is common. I don't pray for Christians to stop being Christians, it is not my business.
Written after rainbow girl's post, i hadn't seen geisha's.
Oak when you take excerpts out of my replies to you and twist them to suit your point of view;I don't know what to do with that, I think a real honest upfront conversation would be much better
Oak when you take excerpts out of my replies to you and twist them to suit your point of view;I don't know what to do with that, I think a real honest upfront conversation would be much better
please point out specifically where I have done that.
So naming posters of a different belief 'swine' on GSC is an acceptable thing because it is in the Bible? Is this something like 'speaking the truth in love'?
Think about it--Does anyone think of you as a swine? How do (Or would) you feel about them? Do their prayers for you warm your heart?
As far as praying for my soul...I know the Christian concept of soul but I don't personally hold that belief in soul.To me that translates as praying for my mind/will because I see myself as one piece--no body and soul or body soul and spirit. I am one entity, me.
People who love me think well of me, even with my imperfections. Those are the ones who really pray for me.
`My views on prayer differ from yours.
If the intent of the prayer is my health, great, obviously I want to be healthy--but if you actually view me as say, swine, ungodly, in need of changing beliefs and gods, then my view is that your prayer may not be in my best interest because your view of me is much different than my view of myself.
Also, a common Wiccan or pagan thought on prayer that is against the will of the person being prayed for--say to change their religion/ beliefs to a different belief/truth-- is that is a manipulative act and brings the same back to you.
I personally think that my adhearance to the belief that I should change others, held during my TWI years, brought some ugly repercussions into my life. Call it karma, or the law of returns or reap what you sow--I was zealous to change people, acted and prayed on that intent, and then had to live through people trying to change me, in a more intense way.
While I don't want people praying for me to change beliefs etc, I obviously can't stop them, I know it is common. I don't pray for Christians to stop being Christians, it is not my business.
Written after rainbow girl's post, i hadn't seen geisha's.
Bramble,
Last word on the subject from me to you, but as we are TWO weeks into this thread and you are still offended about a verse of scripture(One you don't even believe). . . . Jesus's declaration about swine might be wearing a bit thin.
Here, let me give you a new analogy to trample on. . . should take a good two weeks with this one. "Like a dog with a bone."
Let's see, you don't want anyone praying for you to change your beliefs? How many times have I heard this?
Where have I ever said I was? Where have I ever tried to change you? Where is that on either of these threads?
Did I say change Bramble, I am praying for your soul? Did anyone?
You are offended, don't want proselytizing. . . . get to decide what is proselytizing. . . get to complain I do it. . . all on the DOCTRINAL threads. . . get to complain I am praying for your heath. . . you and Kimberly get to decide the deep things of my heart. . . analyze me. . . . based on a few threads in a doctrinal forum. Hmmm now THAT is a pretty good trick. . . familar too.
My goodness, if these are the heady things that offend. . . life must be pretty dull. As for health coming back at me. . . well you see, I have this problem with my neck and it pinches nerves that run down my arm. . . . a little prayer for my health. . . or whatever "turn around whammy" would not be met with disdain.
While you are analyzing my intent, love, heart, and life and are offended by my prayer for your health. . . . which apparently is done with the WRONG kind of love, some kind of disassociation, implied mental illness, some kind of malice, not true enough, or whatever complaint about me the day has brought. . . . I would gently remind you. . . .
You would not know me if you tripped over me. A few posts on a forum. . . . ususally in a DOCTRINAL thread about CHRISTIANITY. . . does not make you an expert on my motivation.
I have a friend whose wonderful young son was diagnosed with an autoimmune disorder which affects his joints and skin. My heart is just moved in prayer for him and his family. . . . I can be moved by compassion for another's suffering. Not too difficult. Even with a less than perfect heart.
Either way. . . carry on.
Along with prayer and proselytizing my hobbies include baseball, politics, baking. . . . home renovation and I like old movies.
I've beeen considering the verses where the Lord tells his disciples to not pray in the manner of the Pharisees and Saducees just to receive their reward from people. Instead He tells them to go into the closet and to not let their one hand know what the other is doing. He says that the end result of doing it this way is that God would reward them openly.
I've also seen the "I'll pray for you" line used as some kind of passive-aggressive attempt to hold onto the upper-hand or moral high ground in certain conversations.
I've read of a case (Foxe's Book of Martyrs) where the speaker was facing death for speaking, and infurated the judges by telling them he would pray for them because they were going to be held accountable by the Lord Jesus Christ for what they were doing to him. It seems to me that in that case the judges were probably most infuriated by speaker's lack of fear and honest concern, when they wanted the speaker to crumble and recant. In the case I'm recalling the speaker was put to death in a cruel fashion.
I THINK THAT IN CASES WHERE THE PERCEPTION IS THAT THE "I'LL PRAY FOR YOU" LINE IS HIGH-HANDED OR PASSIVE AGGRESIVE THAT THE "JUST" REWARD FROM PEOPLE THAT THE SPEAKER RECEIVES IS THAT THE SPEAKER WILL END UP BEING DESPISED.
Let your words be salted and seek to edify the hearers of your sayings! Or perhaps this one, Don't let your goodness be ill-spoken of!
(edited for spelling, grammar, and a little added for clarity)
This thread is challenging for me because I respect everyone involved.
I have to admit that along with Kimberly I've been waiting for Geisha to simply say something like, "Gee, I can understand why you might be offended by my reference in your direction when I used the word "swine." Speaking for myself, it just doesn't seem like the kind of thing that I would have a problem with.
But as long as the topic of talking to people who don't share my faith in Christ has been brought up, along with Bible verses, I'd like to share a couple.....
Acts 19:37
In this verse, an impartial judge counts the believers under Paul's leadership as not having spoken against the goddess Dianna. I perceive great wisdom in this. I think that if Paul was the aggressor in Ephesus he could have been blamed, but he was not blamed. The aggressors were the craftsman who were afraid that the changes in Ephesus' culture would rob them of their trade. I think that what Paul had in his heart was the exhortations to be as wise as serpents but harmless as doves. Or perhaps the turn the other cheek exhortation which my Lamsa Bible list as an Aramaic idiom that means to not brawl.
1 Co 5:12,13
Paul plainly says that God will judge those that are outside of the church along with questioning why should he judge the outsiders. Paul seemed willing to teach the believers to grow up and handle things inside the church rightly, but to leave the unbelievers alone. As a believer, I think that it is highly likely that anyone other than a Christain may likely speak against our beliefs even as the scriptures say that the things of the spirit are foolishness to the natural man. But if because of that verse I WERE TO CALL AN UNBELIEVER A FOOL I would count myself to be the offender for going against the more subtle verses.
I feel that a sound case for these things being offensive are being made outside of the scriptures in this thread. It's just that I happen to believe that the scriptural exhortations really do agree with them as it applies to a believer walking with wisdom.
Now, as it relates to some of you, you've been around a lot longer than I have and I'm certain that there is a history here that I don't know anything about. But as things relate to this conversation, I do not see that anyone is asking for an apology for being a Christain. If I saw that I would clearly be rooting for the other side.
But this issue of accidentally (or not) referring to someone else as a pig is not anything that the Lord did or any of the apostles that I've seen. As a matter of fact the exhortation to not offend anybody seems to apply to a "T."
Dear Geisha,
Please, I think that the Lord can and will fight his own battles if he's offended. But look at what he put up with (the crucifixion) for all of our sakes.
LOVE and PEACE,
JEFF
(edited for spelling)
Hmmm not sure here. Kimberly is waiting for me to apologize to Bramble assuming I used scripture to hurt --- Jeff is pleading with me for. . . something?
BUT, since JEff has pleaded I am going to assume He wants this. . .
Dear Geisha,
I hope you know that I consider you a sister in Christ. The same for Rainbowsgirl.
Since I do, I responded to you with scripture since I appreciate that you are very bold in your desire to believe the scriptures.
What I am looking for is for you to respond to the possibility that your presentation of the scriptures were in fact un-scriptural. Because even though I give you credit for quoting scripture, in this case I think that it is evident that your own words don't seem to convey concern for Bramble and Oakspear as much as they seem to convey that you actually look down on them.
No matter what your intentions were I wouldn't presume to know them. What I do know is that you guys have a history which I do not know. Whew... I hope you can make sense of that. :blink:
Could you find it in your heart to respond directly to the scriptures that I brought up? My honest assessment of those scriptures is that they would help you present Jesus Christ to any person who does not happen to believe in Christ right now.
We at one time did not believe the scriptures either. And considering the price that the Lord paid with his own flesh to bring me to God I think that I should be able to not even write off a man who actively persecutes Christians like the apostle Paul once did. Let alone folks like Bramble and Oakspear, who I happen to appreciate for their honesty in saying who they are.
And to be even more pointed than I was before, if Paul was willing to tell the Corinthians that it was not his job to judge those who were not in the church, then why have you judged Bramble and Oakspear?
I hope you know that I consider you a sister in Christ. The same for Rainbowsgirl.
Since I do, I responded to you with scripture since I appreciate that you are very bold in your desire to believe the scriptures.
What I am looking for is for you to respond to the possibility that your presentation of the scriptures were in fact un-scriptural. Because even though I give you credit for quoting scripture, in this case I think that it is evident that your own words don't seem to convey concern for Bramble and Oakspear as much as they seem to convey that you actually look down on them.
No matter what your intentions were I wouldn't presume to know them. What I do know is that you guys have a history which I do not know. Whew... I hope you can make sense of that. :blink:
Could you find it in your heart to respond directly to the scriptures that I brought up? My honest assessment of those scriptures is that they would help you present Jesus Christ to any person who does not happen to believe in Christ right now.
We at one time did not believe the scriptures either. And considering the price that the Lord paid with his own flesh to bring me to God I think that I should be able to not even write off a man who actively persecutes Christians like the apostle Paul once did. Let alone folks like Bramble and Oakspear, who I happen to appreciate for their honesty in saying who they are.
And to be even more pointed than I was before, if Paul was willing to tell the Corinthians that it was not his job to judge those who were not in the church, then why have you judged Bramble and Oakspear?
Wow. Just WOW! My heart and judgements made upon it sure are popular. I like the one I got last night before logging off the best. . . :) Pretty darn sweet IMHO. . . but that is an aside. . .
Again, what do you want? If you appreciate their honesty in saying who they are. . . what is the problem? I think Bramble has CLEARLY articulated that she has another faith. Would you like me to try and change her? If I tell her the gospel the way YOU want. . . will she someday convert? Is that what I am reading? Please. . . . correct me if I am wrong.
When I made my statement to Bramble. . . was I TRYING to convert her? Win her to the Lord? Was that my intent? No, it was not. I was NOT trying to present the gospel in any paticular way or trying to win her soul for the Lord. I was NOT proselytizing.
You see, I actually do believe her when she tells me she doesn't want it. Jeff, not all will believe.
So, is it the Holy things of God you wish me to share with her? Why? Why would I do that? What would be the reason? Tell me? So they can be called ugly?
Did I not humble myself to your liking when I immediately apologized to her? Was it not enough? Did you read the thread?
If you are asking me to apologize for Jesus I won't do it.
If you are asking me if I purposely called Bramble a swine via scripture the answer is NO.
It is an analogy not a comparision. It was out of respect for what is holy not out of contempt for swine. The principal governs how one handles the gospel in the face of those who do not want the truth.
YET YET YET. . . it in NO way precludes me from loving Bramble. . . caring about her well-being and in this life. . . laying down my own for her if the need should ever be. This is my duty and heart whether she accepts it or not.
Why didn't you just ask me Jeff. . . instead of telling me what I meant?
Even though you didn't think I was asking you what you meant, I assure you by telling you what I saw in your posts along with plainly saying that I wasn't sure what was on your heart would suffice.
IMO Bramble did not get that you love her from your posts. What she said was that she thought that you looked down on her. I don't see any reason in her posts to think that she was going after you because you are a Christain, I think that she was being honest like she seems to be to me about pretty much everything else when she said that she felt that you were looking down on her.
I think that we should in general quit preaching anything but Christ and him crucified to "them durn heathens", and live and speak honestly that we are just as undeserving of that as anyone else.
For me it is not about you humbling yourself to my liking, it is in this case about you actually being humble enough to convey the love of Christ to someone who has in past times been worked over by religious jerks who abused people in the Lord's name.
The scriptures that I refered to directly and indirectly speak for themselves, as do I.
(Added "them durn heathens" to the third paragraph in editing)
Even though you didn't think I was asking you what you meant, I assure you by telling you what I saw in your posts along with plainly saying that I wasn't sure what was on your heart would suffice.
IMO Bramble did not get that you love her from your posts. What she said was that she thought that you looked down on her. I don't see any reason in her posts to think that she was going after you because you are a Christain, I think that she was being honest like she seems to be to me about pretty much everything else when she said that she felt that you were looking down on her.
I think that we should in general quit preaching anything but Christ and him crucified, and live and speak honestly that we are just as undeserving of that as anyone else.
For me it is not about you humbling yourself to my liking, it is in this case about you actually being humble enough to convey the love of Christ to someone who has in past times been worked over by religious jerks who abused people in the Lord's name.
The scriptures that I refered to directly and indirectly speak for themselves, as do I.
I was told by Bramble that she doesn't reject Christianity because of what happened in TWI, I believe that is in your thread about Jesus and Mary Magdelane. . . . here is the direct quote
"I am not pagan because LCM and VPW were jerks and TWI was a cult. In my view, the pagan beliefs are the real authentic me. It fits. I don't have other words to describe it, but I know it at a nonverbal level within myself."
I believe her. Some people will reject Jesus.
Now, what is Jesus to those who don't believe . . . . according to scripture?
1 Corinthians 1:23
23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to the Jews and foolishness to the Gentiles. Roman 9:32 Why is that? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.
Not believing and being offended is perfectly consistent with scripture. Those verses will be offensive to some. . . yet they are speaking of preaching Christ crucified.
What is not consistent with scripture is . . . we as true Christians. . . speaking a watered down . . . more tolerant and pluralistic gospel to entice those who do not accept the righteousness of God.
You see, if you had to sum up Jesus in a short statement. . . it would be. . . He is the righteousness of God revealed.
According to scripture . . . people turn to other things. . . works. . . to obtain their own righteousness. Is that fair enough?
I love that God accepts us where we are. . . he absolutley does. . . and then what does He say? Go the other way. If you don't think your path is wrong. . . that it is not leading you astray. . . I can say repent all day long. . . but, to what purpose?
Would you have me convict people?. . . . not my job.
My heart is not on trial here although it may appear so, and if you have decided about me. . . you have decided. I won't try to change your mind. . . or Brambles. . . these are your judgements. . . you stand by them.
No, it is not your job to convict people. IMO that isn't that far from what Paul said. Except when he said that it wasn't his place to judge those that are outside of the church I'm pretty sure that it meant that he did not judge them.
I'm not exactly sure about the "more tolerant and pluralistic gospel to entice those who do not accept the righteousness of God" remark, but both the scriptures and my remarks have more to do with a believer in Christ than anyone who does not believe. That statement of yours seems to be a judgement of them while I'm reasoning from the scriptures with a sister... go figure.
No, it is not your job to convict people. IMO that isn't that far from what Paul said. Except when he said that it wasn't his place to judge those that are outside of the church I'm pretty sure that it meant that he did not judge them.
I'm not exactly sure about the "more tolerant and pluralistic gospel to entice those who do not accept the righteousness of God" remark, but both the scriptures and my remarks have more to do with a believer in Christ than anyone who does not believe. That statement of yours seems to be a judgement of them while I'm reasoning from the scriptures with a sister... go figure.
WHOA. . . got it now. . . . what do you think judgements are? Do you know what kind of things Paul said about people. . . . judged them as condemned?
I make no judgement about anyone personally. Is that what you are saying I am doing? Because Bramble says I look down on her that makes it true? Bramble is entitled to her opinion. It is not my intent. . . I have made that crystal clear to her in times past. . . this is not our first go around. I won't repeat myself. . . why should I, people believe EXACTLY what they want. I am not on trial. . . Believe what you want and be accountable for it.
Do you think if I was just a weeee bit nicer to her she would repent and forsake WICCA? If we say Wicca is acceptable to the God of the bible. . . . say it if you want. Will it make it true?
BUT. . . .
When someone tells you no. . . do you not consider this as an answer? Do you think it means yes? What does the bible say about those who reject Christ?
Is it a secret here we can't speak of because it might offend? Are we worried about offending with the gospel. . . I am not ashamed of the gospel. . . are you?
It is the power of God unto salvation. . . we believe it is the only way to God. . . through Jesus. . . . it is good enough. . . we don't have to make it prettier.
I have told Bramble I want good things for her. . . that I pray for her. . . that offends her. . . that is what I have to offer. . . it has been rejected. Picked apart. . . judged and found lacking. I have offered my heart here more than once Jeff. . . do you think if it is a little better it will be acceptable?
If I say things opposed to the gospel and accept any way to God. . . maybe. . . I can't do that.
BTW we are to judge. . . . ourselves as well. . . we are NOT to judge hypocritically.
I would have to say. . . . things are unequivocal here. I accept them at their word.
Isn't that what they ask for. . . isn't that what God gives them. . .in freewill?
Feel free to share whatever you want any gospel you please . . . . I have been told NO. . . although I am not sure I ever even asked.
You know what, I've heard of folks who have said that they would not believe in Christ change their mind. I think where I'm at is even if they say they will not, I think...who knows, they may change their mind. Paul mentions this same concern for the unbelieving spouse- 1 Co 7:13
Even God mentions justifying the gentiles who did not seek after righteousness.- Rom 9:30
For me it stands to reason that at times, none of us sought His righteousness. Who's to say what might happen tomorrow.
But when I think of those that cannot hear the gospel because they've been turned off by hypocrisy or abuse I think that someone else may have to answer for their blood. Or who is to say for sure who has willfully rejected truth verses someone who has not yet found the answers that they will believe someday.
In all these things I think it is best to not know anything but Christ and him crucified.- 1 Co 2:2
You know what, I've heard of folks who have said that they would not believe in Christ change their mind. I think where I'm at is even if they say they will not, I think...who knows, they may change their mind. Paul mentions this same concern for the unbelieving spouse- 1 Co 7:13
Even God mentions justifying the gentiles who did not seek after righteousness.- Rom 9:30
For me it stands to reason that at times, none of us sought His righteousness. Who's to say what might happen tomorrow.
But when I think of those that cannot hear the gospel because they've been turned off by hypocrisy or abuse I think that someone else may have to answer for their blood. Or who is to say for sure who has willfully rejected truth verses someone who has not yet found the answers that they will believe someday.
In all these things I think it is best to not know anything but Christ and him crucified.- 1 Co 2:2
(added in editing)
:) right back at you, and thanks.
Jeff,
Are you looking down on her? On her faith? Do you want her to change? That she is not good enough now?
Is that your motivation in holding out hope she will accept Christ?
I would NEVER think that about you. . . . ever. That is not how I see your heart.
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RainbowsGirl
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Oakspear
But let me make a distinction here: when a Christian, or any other person tells me that they're praying for my health, or anything like that, I usually just smile and say thanks. When they tell me that they're praying for my soul, i.e. that my beliefs or lifestyle are wrong, then I feel that I have every reason to be annoyed.
I agree, respect is a two way street. Where have pagans and Wiccans insulted your god? To my knowledge there are only two of us who regularly post here. Could you give examples of the insults and disrespect? I've seen what your bible says, which may or may not be what your god thinks about it. Your god wants everybody to worship him and is jealous of any worship extended to other gods. Your bible wrongly equates worship of other gods with worship of the idols that they represent. I would guess that your god has the same attitude about witchcraft because it involves depending on power that doesn't derive from him, although I've seen sources (not at my fingertips right now) that claim that "witch" should be translated "poisoner", so I guess if I'm not a poisoner, I'm okay with your god.Appalled no, offended yes. That all makes sense if you believe your holy book, for those of us who don't, it's just insulting. I dispute that you can examine anything on this subject without partiality, you are biased toward the biblical point of view...not that there's anything wrong with thatI jumped in here even though I am not the one being addressed and am not one who asked for an apology.
I am not surprised when certain Christians compare me to swine and dogs and insist that I am going to a fictional hell. I am not surprised when these same Christians look down their noses at us. Not surprised, but insulted just the same. I view Christianity the same way I view any other faith (or lack of faith), a personal choice that makes the Christian neither superior nor inferior to me, a path that works for that person, and brings comfort to that person; personal choices that I don't have the right or the expertise to judge. Yet those same people presume to judge me, as well as follwers of others faiths, plus atheists, agnostics et al.
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JeffSjo
This thread is challenging for me because I respect everyone involved.
I have to admit that along with Kimberly I've been waiting for Geisha to simply say something like, "Gee, I can understand why you might be offended by my reference in your direction when I used the word "swine." Speaking for myself, it just doesn't seem like the kind of thing that I would have a problem with.
But as long as the topic of talking to people who don't share my faith in Christ has been brought up, along with Bible verses, I'd like to share a couple.....
Acts 19:37
In this verse, an impartial judge counts the believers under Paul's leadership as not having spoken against the goddess Dianna. I perceive great wisdom in this. I think that if Paul was the aggressor in Ephesus he could have been blamed, but he was not blamed. The aggressors were the craftsman who were afraid that the changes in Ephesus' culture would rob them of their trade. I think that what Paul had in his heart was the exhortations to be as wise as serpents but harmless as doves. Or perhaps the turn the other cheek exhortation which my Lamsa Bible list as an Aramaic idiom that means to not brawl.
1 Co 5:12,13
Paul plainly says that God will judge those that are outside of the church along with questioning why should he judge the outsiders. Paul seemed willing to teach the believers to grow up and handle things inside the church rightly, but to leave the unbelievers alone. As a believer, I think that it is highly likely that anyone other than a Christain may likely speak against our beliefs even as the scriptures say that the things of the spirit are foolishness to the natural man. But if because of that verse I WERE TO CALL AN UNBELIEVER A FOOL I would count myself to be the offender for going against the more subtle verses.
I feel that a sound case for these things being offensive are being made outside of the scriptures in this thread. It's just that I happen to believe that the scriptural exhortations really do agree with them as it applies to a believer walking with wisdom.
Now, as it relates to some of you, you've been around a lot longer than I have and I'm certain that there is a history here that I don't know anything about. But as things relate to this conversation, I do not see that anyone is asking for an apology for being a Christain. If I saw that I would clearly be rooting for the other side.
But this issue of accidentally (or not) referring to someone else as a pig is not anything that the Lord did or any of the apostles that I've seen. As a matter of fact the exhortation to not offend anybody seems to apply to a "T."
Dear Geisha,
Please, I think that the Lord can and will fight his own battles if he's offended. But look at what he put up with (the crucifixion) for all of our sakes.
LOVE and PEACE,
JEFF
(edited for spelling)
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Bramble
Just a couple points:
I did not ask anyone for an apology. I though Kimberly was trying to smooth troubled waters and wanted to acknowledge her kindness.
I do think refering to another person as swine is insulting, and the fact that it is in the Bible doesn't make it acceptable to me. But then, I was in TWI. I saw lots of ugly things wrapped in Bible verses, The Bible verses didn't make everything okay.
Prayer should be an act of love,and love goes hand in hand with respect as far as I'm concerned. While I can't make anyone do anything or not do anything, I can state my opinion. In my beliefs, my health, well being etc are best helped by those who pray for me with whole hearted love. Intent involves the deep matters of the heart.
I spent twenty years in TWI. I've read the Bible. I've gone to churches outside TWI. I was raised Roman Catholic, school and college(which I know is not Christian enough for some Christians). I didn't quit being a Christian because I hated it so very much but because I found something that spoke to me more deeply.
I know what the Bible says about witchcraft. The Bible witchcraft/ poisoner/practitioner has no relevancy to my beliefs, though you may disagree.
Where have I insulted the Christian God? Other than not being Christian and not pretending to be. And I am very sure you might find something I wrote in a snit but I doubt you'll find anything like that attributed to Oakspear. We are not joined at the hip and have actually never met and could even have different thoughts and reactions!
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RainbowsGirl
Oak Wrote:
QUOTE (RainbowsGirl @ Jan 20 2009, 05:21 PM)
Geisha wrote:
Prayer is a conversation with GOD...Excuse me, are you capitalizing "God" out of respect, or emphasis?
Both Oak
QUOTE
... to beseech HIM to help with any needs in any persons life whether they are spiritual, physical or mental.Yup, got that. This is not news.
I was fairly sure it wasn't new to You
QUOTE
When you were in TWI you probably learned that in The Word of GOD.I learned it in & out of TWI
Me too!!!
QUOTE
We Christians are exhorted to pray for all (without exception) men and to pray without ceasing...and regardless of TWI's faults and misinterpretations; The Word of GOD states this clearly throughout.So pray. In what verse does it say that you have to tell us that you're praying for us?
I don't recall any verse that requires a Christan to inform you that we are praying for You or Your soul...I think that it is optional. This brings a question to my mind that I hope that You might answer: Why would it bother You if anyone is praying for Your soul ??? You have at the very least an intellectual knowledge of GOD and Christianity there fore you know full well that this a common practice in Christianity and that it is GOD's desire that we demonstrate HIS Love and HIS Will
Except, I wish that You recognized that it isn't done with disdain or persecution or merely to convert by proselytizing.
When I pray for someones Soul this is what is in my heart: First of all Godly Love. Next of all Godly Compassion, then Hope.. I am thinking, that we both believe differently and we both are convinced to some degree that what we live and believe is the truth.
I can only speak for myself , but personally I believe GOD is the absolute truth. I am just sharing my heart now Oak; so then I think of the justice and judgment of GOD and Eternity and why wouldn't I pray for any one's soul to be saved from eternally being in hell??? If it were You in my shoes and me in Your's...both of us being human both of us having an understand of some of differences between right and wrong or good and evil. Would you not pray for my soul that I would not spend eternity in hell??? It isn't a place that I would want to go to or see anyone go to for ...eternity.....
The difference between us is that I Love GOD and believe Him and You don't Love GOD. He at the very least angers, offends and convicts You with His Word,
How can it hurt or offend you so if You have abandoned GOD and His Word and believe that He is only one of many gods and not a very nice one and from Your perspective jealous, cruel, unjust and unloving.
Is it because You know that He exists and that He will perform His Word and cast some to hell?
You get to choose to dislike or hate him or even believe that He does not exist. If I didn't believe in GOD it would be foolish and ludicrous and very harmless if anyone in a loving way prayed for my soul or not; If I was totally convinced and convicted in my beliefs. Why is it that You can never focus on GOD's Love, Mercy and Grace and only rather HIS Judgment and Justice???
True Christan's don't thro GOD or His Word unloving in pagans faces, nor do they feel in any way superior to them. The difference is that a Christan recognizes GOD in a Christan way and repents to GOD personally and lives that standard and a Pagan rejects Christianity and lives in a pagan way and opposes repentance. We ALL choose. It would break my heart and I have permission to add Geisha's to know anyone that is condemned to hell.
QUOTE
Prayer has no boundaries because it is between the one praying and GOD; and only GOD can answer prayers in His own manner.Agreed. Pray, pray without ceasing, but when you tell me that you're praying for me, usually it's proselytizing (sp?).
The spoken and written Word of GOD speaks in the form of doctrine reproof and correction. In all the doctrinal threads that any nonbeliever in The God of the Bible have posted in I have only seen contempt, anger, disdain and judgment toward GOD, no attempt is ever made to recognize His Love, Goodness , Mercy, Justice, Fairness of His Word and Will as a whole. Even when I am being fair and impartial with Geisha's post and at length present it scripturally for you in Love. You directly are ignoring the obvious and malign and impugning Jesus for saying it and further use it to state you are being persecuted by Christan's and Christianity. In this thread alone lie Your examples...the one's You request!!!
But let me make a distinction here: when a Christian, or any other person tells me that they're praying for my health, or anything like that, I usually just smile and say thanks. When they tell me that they're praying for my soul, i.e. that my beliefs or lifestyle are wrong, then I feel that I have every reason to be annoyed.
This is address above
QUOTE
Respect is a two - way street. In many ways pagans and Wiccan have insulted and disrespected GOD, Christians and Christianity at times openly in threads and posts with their remarks. This is in essence completely expected as they are diametrically opposing doctrines. A Christian can only respond as a Christian and likewise a Wiccan and a Pagan can also only respond in kind.I agree, respect is a two way street. Where have pagans and Wiccans insulted your god? To my knowledge there are only two of us who regularly post here. Could you give examples of the insults and disrespect?
This is also addressed in the above replies
QUOTE
What does GOD say about Witch craft and Idolatry?I've seen what your bible says, which may or may not be what your god thinks about it. Your god wants everybody to worship him and is jealous of any worship extended to other gods. Your bible wrongly equates worship of other gods with worship of the idols that they represent. I would guess that your god has the same attitude about witchcraft because it involves depending on power that doesn't derive from him, although I've seen sources (not at my fingertips right now) that claim that "witch" should be translated "poisoner", so I guess if I'm not a poisoner, I'm okay with your god.
This is accusative and maligning and impugning of my GOD...an example
QUOTE
You would be appalled and offended if I were to provide the scriptural references,Appalled no, offended yes.
Take that up with GOD as I have never attack You or Your beliefs...the Word of GOD that I speak and write is from GOD although I whole heartedly believe it I don't attack You with it and neither by the way does GOD attack You with it GOD's purpose is Salvation for ALL mankind!!!
QUOTE
I am quite sure. They are opposing doctrines; and anyone who cannot clearly see that is not a workman of GOD’s Word. God is the epitome of Holiness; and He is only tolerant in this "Age of Grace" to give man his day; Yet scripturally, that in no way indicates that GOD respects or tolerates the doctrines of men…quite the contrary…the scripture is plain.That all makes sense if you believe your holy book, for those of us who don't, it's just insulting.
Concerning GOD and HIS Word You have tunnel vision and selectively seeing only in part and only what You want to see. I am never happy to see anyone twist GOD's Word or blame GOD for their personal viewpoints or trials, tribulations and consequences.
QUOTE
Geisha and her husband are very close and dear friends of mine yet, I have fairly and without partiality examined her post in a Godly scriptural manner, ...I dispute that you can examine anything on this subject without partiality, you are biased toward the biblical point of view...not that there's anything wrong with that
Only a blind man would say without evidence that my rely was biased to Geisha's post because of my biblical point of view as a Christian
I jumped in here even though I am not the one being addressed and am not one who asked for an apology.
I am not surprised when certain Christians compare me to swine and dogs and insist that I am going to a fictional hell. I am not surprised when these same Christians look down their noses at us. Not surprised, but insulted just the same. I view Christianity the same way I view any other faith (or lack of faith), a personal choice that makes the Christian neither superior nor inferior to me, a path that works for that person, and brings comfort to that person; personal choices that I don't have the right or the expertise to judge. Yet those same people presume to judge me, as well as followers of others faiths, plus atheists, agnostics et al.
(sp?).
I am truly truly very sorry Oak and Anyone else who feels this way or believes this that You're perspective of GOD, Christianity and Christain is so clouded and jaded
But let me make a distinction here: when a Christian, or any other person tells me that they're praying for my health, or anything like that, I usually just smile and say thanks. When they tell me that they're praying for my soul, i.e. that my beliefs or lifestyle are wrong, then I feel that I have every reason to be annoyed.
This is addressed above
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Oakspear
More to come...I don't want to make these posts too long. If you're logged in, can you refrain from answering until I get all the way through?
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Oakspear
He does not anger me or offend me, because he has not personally one-on-one done anything to anger and offend me. Some of his followers have.
I'm sorry, where have I used the words cruel, unjust, or unloving? I believe I used the word "jealous", because that is a word that the bible uses to describe him. Why would you have a problem with a word that, according to the bible, your god uses to describe himself? No, that is incorrect. It is harmless to me also if someone in my neighborhood thinks I'm ugly, yet if he was to tell me that, I'd probably be offended, true or not. Actually I find those attributes aplenty in the god who is described in the gospels, despite his son's use of "swine"More to come
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Oakspear
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Oakspear
by Oakspear:
What does GOD say about Witch craft and Idolatry?I've seen what your bible says, which may or may not be what your god thinks about it. Your god wants everybody to worship him and is jealous of any worship extended to other gods. Your bible wrongly equates worship of other gods with worship of the idols that they represent. I would guess that your god has the same attitude about witchcraft because it involves depending on power that doesn't derive from him, although I've seen sources (not at my fingertips right now) that claim that "witch" should be translated "poisoner", so I guess if I'm not a poisoner, I'm okay with your god.
Let's see, I said
- I don't see any maligning in there :blink:
Right, it's not my fault, God says it. Take some responsibility for what you say. i think that you have me confused with someone else. I'm not blaming your god for anything. You are getting dangerously close to making this personal. No need to call names.by Oakspear:
I am not surprised when certain Christians compare me to swine and dogs and insist that I am going to a fictional hell. I am not surprised when these same Christians look down their noses at us. Not surprised, but insulted just the same. I view Christianity the same way I view any other faith (or lack of faith), a personal choice that makes the Christian neither superior nor inferior to me, a path that works for that person, and brings comfort to that person; personal choices that I don't have the right or the expertise to judge. Yet those same people presume to judge me, as well as followers of others faiths, plus atheists, agnostics et al.
Did you even read what I wrote?That's about it. I would suggest that you actually read what I write rather than reading into it.
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geisha779
LOL My goodness I am popular. RG told me this was here. . . .and thanks RG for the lovely posts and including me in yours!!
NOW. . . . let's see. . .
Are we STILL complaining about being prayed for? Well, don't really HAVE a response to that. I do appreciate that Oakspear saw the humor. . . intended. . .
Hmmm not sure here. Kimberly is waiting for me to apologize to Bramble assuming I used scripture to hurt --- Jeff is pleading with me for. . . something?
Am I to apologize for quoting Jesus to make a point or for praying for a woman's health? Catch me up guys. You don't want me to proselytze. . . which I have been overly careful not to do. . . I guess asking you Bramble a simple question and giving the option to answer or not could on some planet somewhere be called proselytizing. Maybe.
When I make clear I have no desire to share the Christian faith with her(WHICH SHE DOESN"T WANT). . . I offend her by articulating my point with the words of the Savior. By the way, it is not like you illustrated my point or anything.
What is it you want. . . tell me. . . would you like me to strip down to my birthday suit and dance under the pale moonlight? Would you like me to change my belief system? Would you like me to not express my faith on the doctrinal forums in a thread about Jesus?
Not really sure here, but seems a bit of overkill. But, since it seems you REALLY are curious and my absence has caused a plethora of assumption let me once again bare my heart.
Now, consider this whatever you will.
Jesus loves you. Really loves you. I love you too. So much so, I truly do want you to have a relationship with Him. BUT, if you want something else. . . that is what you will get.
Your choice. God isn't going to send you to hell. . . you have chosen what you want and it is not Him. You have chosen. . . by your free-will.
BUT, since JEff has pleaded I am going to assume He wants this. . .
The bible tells us that we all sin and fall short of the Glory of God. Do you know. . . that includes Christians. It includes me. I am a sinner. . . How do we know that we are sinners. . . well, besides the bible? There is a moral code written on your hearts. Each of us knows right from wrong. . . it is wrong to hurt others. . . if there be no harm. . . do no harm. . . what defines harm? Where does that come from? It comes from God. His law written on our hearts.
Yet, at one time or another, we have done harm. We are human. . . . so, we have sinned. Fallen short of the Glory of God. . . . Now, what does that mean. . . it means that a God who spoke creation into being. . . has to be Holy. . . Perfect. . . and good. It is not too difficult to look rough next to perfection.
God KNOWS this. Because He loves us. . . He made a way to be reconciled to Him. Through His Son. You see, most Christians believe that Jesus is God. . . that He came here to earth and dwelt among us. Lived a perfect life. . . sinless and then died for us. . . was raised.......so that we might live in Him.
Why did He need to die so that we could live. Well, again the Holiness of God. His wrath had to be satisfied. . . not because He is mean. . . .but because of the offense against Him. Not only is the love of God displayed in Jesus so is the wrath of God. You cannot offend or approach such holiness and perfection. I guess you really have to consider what such a being might be like. Why HE would not tolerate the worship of something else. He is also a paradox. . . a wonderful paradox that takes everything in your life and turns it on its ear. The first will be last. . . the meek shall inherit. . .
Anyway. . . He does love us and didn't leave us without a way. He did it without us. . . our part was to kill Jesus. Yet, He made a way. He took the thing that was Holy and perfect and He loved and sacrificed it so that we might now approach Him. . . have a relationship with Him. In fact, it is a more personal relationship because it is a person. The person of Jesus.
All He asks is that we believe. Now, since He went to all that trouble for us. . . seems little to ask. Especially when you get so much in return. . . we are saved. . . from judgement. . . God is a judge. . . .
No one will be able to speak anything against Him on that day. Everyone will have to confess He is Lord. Every knee will bow. . . I choose to bow mine now..
But, we are free to reject the offer He makes. I just hope we do it with the utmost thought and care. . . you see, I really do believe this gospel message.
Now. . . the bible NEVER defends the existence of God. . . it declares it. . . .the same bible which has been declared irrelevant so many times. . . the same bible that will be here once we are gone to our just reward. It declares . . . the same God whose death knell has been rang by those now worm food. . . the same Jesus we still talk about today. . . the same God who men have been wrestling with for a very long time. . . It also declares a great a powerful love. . . in the gospel message and the person of Jesus. Very cool guy BTW.
Now. . . that is what you call proseltyzing!!
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Oakspear
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Bramble
So naming posters of a different belief 'swine' on GSC is an acceptable thing because it is in the Bible? Is this something like 'speaking the truth in love'?
Think about it--Does anyone think of you as a swine? How do (Or would) you feel about them? Do their prayers for you warm your heart?
As far as praying for my soul...I know the Christian concept of soul but I don't personally hold that belief in soul.To me that translates as praying for my mind/will because I see myself as one piece--no body and soul or body soul and spirit. I am one entity, me.
People who love me think well of me, even with my imperfections. Those are the ones who really pray for me.
`My views on prayer differ from yours.
If the intent of the prayer is my health, great, obviously I want to be healthy--but if you actually view me as say, swine, ungodly, in need of changing beliefs and gods, then my view is that your prayer may not be in my best interest because your view of me is much different than my view of myself.
Also, a common Wiccan or pagan thought on prayer that is against the will of the person being prayed for--say to change their religion/ beliefs to a different belief/truth-- is that is a manipulative act and brings the same back to you.
I personally think that my adhearance to the belief that I should change others, held during my TWI years, brought some ugly repercussions into my life. Call it karma, or the law of returns or reap what you sow--I was zealous to change people, acted and prayed on that intent, and then had to live through people trying to change me, in a more intense way.
While I don't want people praying for me to change beliefs etc, I obviously can't stop them, I know it is common. I don't pray for Christians to stop being Christians, it is not my business.
Written after rainbow girl's post, i hadn't seen geisha's.
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RainbowsGirl
Oak when you take excerpts out of my replies to you and twist them to suit your point of view;I don't know what to do with that, I think a real honest upfront conversation would be much better
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geisha779
Cute very cute!
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Oakspear
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geisha779
Bramble,
Last word on the subject from me to you, but as we are TWO weeks into this thread and you are still offended about a verse of scripture(One you don't even believe). . . . Jesus's declaration about swine might be wearing a bit thin.
Here, let me give you a new analogy to trample on. . . should take a good two weeks with this one. "Like a dog with a bone."
Let's see, you don't want anyone praying for you to change your beliefs? How many times have I heard this?
Where have I ever said I was? Where have I ever tried to change you? Where is that on either of these threads?
Did I say change Bramble, I am praying for your soul? Did anyone?
You are offended, don't want proselytizing. . . . get to decide what is proselytizing. . . get to complain I do it. . . all on the DOCTRINAL threads. . . get to complain I am praying for your heath. . . you and Kimberly get to decide the deep things of my heart. . . analyze me. . . . based on a few threads in a doctrinal forum. Hmmm now THAT is a pretty good trick. . . familar too.
My goodness, if these are the heady things that offend. . . life must be pretty dull. As for health coming back at me. . . well you see, I have this problem with my neck and it pinches nerves that run down my arm. . . . a little prayer for my health. . . or whatever "turn around whammy" would not be met with disdain.
While you are analyzing my intent, love, heart, and life and are offended by my prayer for your health. . . . which apparently is done with the WRONG kind of love, some kind of disassociation, implied mental illness, some kind of malice, not true enough, or whatever complaint about me the day has brought. . . . I would gently remind you. . . .
You would not know me if you tripped over me. A few posts on a forum. . . . ususally in a DOCTRINAL thread about CHRISTIANITY. . . does not make you an expert on my motivation.
I have a friend whose wonderful young son was diagnosed with an autoimmune disorder which affects his joints and skin. My heart is just moved in prayer for him and his family. . . . I can be moved by compassion for another's suffering. Not too difficult. Even with a less than perfect heart.
Either way. . . carry on.
Along with prayer and proselytizing my hobbies include baseball, politics, baking. . . . home renovation and I like old movies.
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JeffSjo
Dear Geisha,
I hope you know that I consider you a sister in Christ. The same for Rainbowsgirl.
Since I do, I responded to you with scripture since I appreciate that you are very bold in your desire to believe the scriptures.
What I am looking for is for you to respond to the possibility that your presentation of the scriptures were in fact un-scriptural. Because even though I give you credit for quoting scripture, in this case I think that it is evident that your own words don't seem to convey concern for Bramble and Oakspear as much as they seem to convey that you actually look down on them.
No matter what your intentions were I wouldn't presume to know them. What I do know is that you guys have a history which I do not know. Whew... I hope you can make sense of that. :blink:
Could you find it in your heart to respond directly to the scriptures that I brought up? My honest assessment of those scriptures is that they would help you present Jesus Christ to any person who does not happen to believe in Christ right now.
We at one time did not believe the scriptures either. And considering the price that the Lord paid with his own flesh to bring me to God I think that I should be able to not even write off a man who actively persecutes Christians like the apostle Paul once did. Let alone folks like Bramble and Oakspear, who I happen to appreciate for their honesty in saying who they are.
And to be even more pointed than I was before, if Paul was willing to tell the Corinthians that it was not his job to judge those who were not in the church, then why have you judged Bramble and Oakspear?
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geisha779
Wow. Just WOW! My heart and judgements made upon it sure are popular. I like the one I got last night before logging off the best. . . :) Pretty darn sweet IMHO. . . but that is an aside. . .
Again, what do you want? If you appreciate their honesty in saying who they are. . . what is the problem? I think Bramble has CLEARLY articulated that she has another faith. Would you like me to try and change her? If I tell her the gospel the way YOU want. . . will she someday convert? Is that what I am reading? Please. . . . correct me if I am wrong.
When I made my statement to Bramble. . . was I TRYING to convert her? Win her to the Lord? Was that my intent? No, it was not. I was NOT trying to present the gospel in any paticular way or trying to win her soul for the Lord. I was NOT proselytizing.
You see, I actually do believe her when she tells me she doesn't want it. Jeff, not all will believe.
So, is it the Holy things of God you wish me to share with her? Why? Why would I do that? What would be the reason? Tell me? So they can be called ugly?
Did I not humble myself to your liking when I immediately apologized to her? Was it not enough? Did you read the thread?
If you are asking me to apologize for Jesus I won't do it.
If you are asking me if I purposely called Bramble a swine via scripture the answer is NO.
It is an analogy not a comparision. It was out of respect for what is holy not out of contempt for swine. The principal governs how one handles the gospel in the face of those who do not want the truth.
YET YET YET. . . it in NO way precludes me from loving Bramble. . . caring about her well-being and in this life. . . laying down my own for her if the need should ever be. This is my duty and heart whether she accepts it or not.
Why didn't you just ask me Jeff. . . instead of telling me what I meant?
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JeffSjo
Dear Geisha,
Even though you didn't think I was asking you what you meant, I assure you by telling you what I saw in your posts along with plainly saying that I wasn't sure what was on your heart would suffice.
IMO Bramble did not get that you love her from your posts. What she said was that she thought that you looked down on her. I don't see any reason in her posts to think that she was going after you because you are a Christain, I think that she was being honest like she seems to be to me about pretty much everything else when she said that she felt that you were looking down on her.
I think that we should in general quit preaching anything but Christ and him crucified to "them durn heathens", and live and speak honestly that we are just as undeserving of that as anyone else.
For me it is not about you humbling yourself to my liking, it is in this case about you actually being humble enough to convey the love of Christ to someone who has in past times been worked over by religious jerks who abused people in the Lord's name.
The scriptures that I refered to directly and indirectly speak for themselves, as do I.
(Added "them durn heathens" to the third paragraph in editing)
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geisha779
I was told by Bramble that she doesn't reject Christianity because of what happened in TWI, I believe that is in your thread about Jesus and Mary Magdelane. . . . here is the direct quote
"I am not pagan because LCM and VPW were jerks and TWI was a cult. In my view, the pagan beliefs are the real authentic me. It fits. I don't have other words to describe it, but I know it at a nonverbal level within myself."
I believe her. Some people will reject Jesus.
Now, what is Jesus to those who don't believe . . . . according to scripture?
1 Corinthians 1:23
23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to the Jews and foolishness to the Gentiles. Roman 9:32 Why is that? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.
Not believing and being offended is perfectly consistent with scripture. Those verses will be offensive to some. . . yet they are speaking of preaching Christ crucified.
What is not consistent with scripture is . . . we as true Christians. . . speaking a watered down . . . more tolerant and pluralistic gospel to entice those who do not accept the righteousness of God.
You see, if you had to sum up Jesus in a short statement. . . it would be. . . He is the righteousness of God revealed.
According to scripture . . . people turn to other things. . . works. . . to obtain their own righteousness. Is that fair enough?
I love that God accepts us where we are. . . he absolutley does. . . and then what does He say? Go the other way. If you don't think your path is wrong. . . that it is not leading you astray. . . I can say repent all day long. . . but, to what purpose?
Would you have me convict people?. . . . not my job.
My heart is not on trial here although it may appear so, and if you have decided about me. . . you have decided. I won't try to change your mind. . . or Brambles. . . these are your judgements. . . you stand by them.
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JeffSjo
No, it is not your job to convict people. IMO that isn't that far from what Paul said. Except when he said that it wasn't his place to judge those that are outside of the church I'm pretty sure that it meant that he did not judge them.
I'm not exactly sure about the "more tolerant and pluralistic gospel to entice those who do not accept the righteousness of God" remark, but both the scriptures and my remarks have more to do with a believer in Christ than anyone who does not believe. That statement of yours seems to be a judgement of them while I'm reasoning from the scriptures with a sister... go figure.
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geisha779
WHOA. . . got it now. . . . what do you think judgements are? Do you know what kind of things Paul said about people. . . . judged them as condemned?
I make no judgement about anyone personally. Is that what you are saying I am doing? Because Bramble says I look down on her that makes it true? Bramble is entitled to her opinion. It is not my intent. . . I have made that crystal clear to her in times past. . . this is not our first go around. I won't repeat myself. . . why should I, people believe EXACTLY what they want. I am not on trial. . . Believe what you want and be accountable for it.
Do you think if I was just a weeee bit nicer to her she would repent and forsake WICCA? If we say Wicca is acceptable to the God of the bible. . . . say it if you want. Will it make it true?
BUT. . . .
When someone tells you no. . . do you not consider this as an answer? Do you think it means yes? What does the bible say about those who reject Christ?
Is it a secret here we can't speak of because it might offend? Are we worried about offending with the gospel. . . I am not ashamed of the gospel. . . are you?
It is the power of God unto salvation. . . we believe it is the only way to God. . . through Jesus. . . . it is good enough. . . we don't have to make it prettier.
I have told Bramble I want good things for her. . . that I pray for her. . . that offends her. . . that is what I have to offer. . . it has been rejected. Picked apart. . . judged and found lacking. I have offered my heart here more than once Jeff. . . do you think if it is a little better it will be acceptable?
If I say things opposed to the gospel and accept any way to God. . . maybe. . . I can't do that.
BTW we are to judge. . . . ourselves as well. . . we are NOT to judge hypocritically.
I would have to say. . . . things are unequivocal here. I accept them at their word.
Isn't that what they ask for. . . isn't that what God gives them. . .in freewill?
Feel free to share whatever you want any gospel you please . . . . I have been told NO. . . although I am not sure I ever even asked.
. . . take care :)
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JeffSjo
You know what, I've heard of folks who have said that they would not believe in Christ change their mind. I think where I'm at is even if they say they will not, I think...who knows, they may change their mind. Paul mentions this same concern for the unbelieving spouse- 1 Co 7:13
Even God mentions justifying the gentiles who did not seek after righteousness.- Rom 9:30
For me it stands to reason that at times, none of us sought His righteousness. Who's to say what might happen tomorrow.
But when I think of those that cannot hear the gospel because they've been turned off by hypocrisy or abuse I think that someone else may have to answer for their blood. Or who is to say for sure who has willfully rejected truth verses someone who has not yet found the answers that they will believe someday.
In all these things I think it is best to not know anything but Christ and him crucified.- 1 Co 2:2
(added in editing)
:) right back at you, and thanks.
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geisha779
Jeff,
Are you looking down on her? On her faith? Do you want her to change? That she is not good enough now?
Is that your motivation in holding out hope she will accept Christ?
I would NEVER think that about you. . . . ever. That is not how I see your heart.
:)
Edited by geisha779Link to comment
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