I think the best thing is to not worship their gods nor honor their sacrifices if I was bidden to eat a meal dedicated to their gods as stated in 1 Co 8:1-13.
Well Jeff, maybe you and I can eat burgers and drink a few brews together sometime, dedicated to nothing other than a good time!
My last posts on this thread were to Kimberly and Rainbow girl--I had not seen geisha's reply about my 'complaining' prior to my last post to RB, who asked something about prayer.
How people think of me or want for me is their business. How people treat me crosses the line into my business, and I feel I have the right to speak up.
I just checked out your profile when I got here but before I logged back on And I must say that that is quite some personal photo.
I volunteer at 'Boo at the Zoo', a fundraiser for the Chidren's Zoo every year. At the time my boss, who knew I was a pagan, asked me a couple of times if I worshipped Satan, especially after he saw my pentacle that I was wearing at a social event. He laughed his @$$ off when I showed up in that getup. That red makeup was tough to get off, as was the black hair dye!
Ya know Oakspeare I gotta give you a lot of credit.
There are a lot of folks here who are very kind Christians and god bless'em.
There are a few who are still programmed into waythink
There are a few who will slam TWI and LCM but they remind me of him. Vicious, spitting, witch hunters(tresses), self-righteous, they know god's ways and jesus' ways and you are scum Oakie - you've turned your back on the one true light and nothing but ill awaits you. I admire you for being able to take that kind of snake venom-like verbiage and respond so civilly - if civility is a part of the bible (hmmm lemme scratch my butt for a sec - Love god with all thy heart soul mind and strength and thy neighbor as thyself - OH YEAH - a teaching of jesus!!!) then these venom spitting judges belong in a jihad courtroom instead of faking god's presence.
Oh and since I never named a single poster's name, this post cannot be construed as a personal attack thank you very much.
Well done sir!
So I will tip another ale and play this song for you...BTW if you are ever out this way gimme a holler and I will turn you on to my favorite ale which is named "Arrogant B@st@rd Ale" from Stone Brewing company and whose logo is a gargoyle. We'll down a few of those and some good eats.
The song was released in 1974 by Robert Hunter (former song writer for the Dead) - titled "The Boys in the Barroom"
Does God look down on the boys in the barroom
Mainly forsaken but surely not judged?
Jacks, kings, and aces, their faces in wine
Do Lord deliver our kind
From singing for whiskey, three strings on a fiddle
I hope I would always be willing to say as Paul did, even while in prison to the rulers of the land, "I wish you believed what I believe."
I never really found a good reason for NOT holding out hope that anyone might someday believe in Christ. After all, Paul said that he was set as an example and he called himself "chief among sinners."
But as for "those durn heathens" I think the best thing is to not worship their gods nor honor their sacrifices if I was bidden to eat a meal dedicated to their gods as stated in 1 Co 8:1-13. It's not that I think any less of believing that there is one God, it's just that I prefer to learn how to best apply that knowledge as it may benefit another's conscience.
But as the believers in Ephesus (Acts 19:37), I will not speak against their gods either because they did not and I believe that they were right.
So, in a nutshell, I believe what I believe. But in this case I seek anothers benefit.
Does that make sense to you? I hope it isn't rambling.
(edited for spelling)
p.s. Actually, I'm kind of jazzed to have a situation where so much scripture seems to apply so directly.
(added in editing) I'm fairly certain that "those durn heathens" need to get more from us than EEEWWWW!!!
I am sorry Jeff but you are going to have to refresh my memory. Where is it anyone said EEEEwwwwww about another person's faith. . . well, let me rephrase. . . . let's limit that to a non christians faith. . .
Who spoke against their Gods? Who said anything like that?
My great offense was to ask a simple question. . . make a joke to Oakspear(Who understood it) and tell BRamble I prayed for her health.
My other offense was to assure her I had no desire to witness to her or share my faith with her. . . . after apologizing for even a hint this might be the case. Thought that is what she wanted. . . . she pretty much said it was. . . .
I used a scripture and the words of Jesus to articulate this point. I have explained that to you once. . . . that is all you get from me.
I am not totally unaware that Wiccans consider proselytizing insulting. I think that has been laid out fairly well.
SO. . . .
If you hope they believe as you do. . . good for you. Honestly, I don't care. A no thank-you is good enough for me.
I believe as I do. . . they as they do. . . . I never said EEEEwwwwww about Wicca, witchcraft, or dancing naked under the pale moon light for that matter.
I made a joke to Oakspear. . . not the first time either. . . and because I did. . . . we are now two weeks into this thread.
If I could be plainer I would. . . . but here goes. . . . I don't care what faith they practice. . . it has little or NOTHING to do with me.
Maybe some think I should care. . . . that is their right. . . .but, we DO have freewill to choose what we want!
Again, I think MOST Wiccans are gentle people. How does their faith affect my life? Guess what? It doesn't. At all.
I will pass the mantle of holding out hope for them to you. . . . all yours. . . enjoy. . . . . . . go for it!
To summarize my position as it pertains to this thread:
I really did get that geisha was joking with me, she also gets it when I mess with her.
I started this thread to get a better feel for what Christians were thinking when they pray for the non-Christian's soul. I was not surprised at the answers, but feel a bit better educated about the mind set.
I don't have any problem with Christianity, or most Christians, but am mildly annoyed and slightly offended when I my beliefs are considered inferior; annoyed and offended, but not surprised: I understand where they are coming from because I've been there.
I also understand that some of what I say can be considered offensive to Christians. I try not to be, but sometimes it can't be avoided.
When threads contain vigorous debate, they can be a lot of fun, and mentally stimulating. To me they're less enjoyable when they are full of people talking past each other and misunderstanding or even misrepresenting others' positions.
For those who believe in jesus commanding people to hell for various forms of idolatry.... excerpts from a letter from Thomas Jefferson to The Reverend Benjamin Waterhouse (June 26, 1822) in an assault on organized religion...
"That good works, or the love of our neighbor, are nothing." (Read M&A)
"That faith is everything, and the more incomprehensible the proposition, the more merit in its faith." (Read PFAL)
"That God, from the beginning, elected certain individuals to be saved, and others to be damned; and that no crimes of the former can damn them; no virtues of the latter save." (Read Victor Paul Drunk Wierwille's sexual assault on women, perversions of the bible, and drunken debauchery)
This thread has covered a lot of territory, and I said before, I was jazzed to see in the scriptures the possibilities. I think that in the first century that if the early Christains had tried to chase the pagans out of town that they would have been slaughtered.
But I don't think that for them it was just a matter of survival.I think it was a matter of holding onto the concept of them not being better than anyone else.
When I think of established Christianity burning pagans at the stake as it has happened several times over several centuries I get just as mad as when my former splinter group deliberately wrecked my life even though in their own twisted manner they covered their actions with scripture references and the appearance of a viable ministry.
From my consideration of the scriptures I don't see any other good course besides keeping my Christian beliefs and caring for the welfare of those who don't believe in Christ as much as God who sends the rain on the just and the unjust alike.
I agree with Bramble in one respect for sure, that she has the right to speak up when she feels she has been mistreated.
And to Geisha, I did not say that you said EEEEWWWWWW to anyone. What I said is that they deserve to get more from us than EEEWWWW. I meant that if for all our scripture quoting or belief in Christ, that if they feel looked down on then all they ARE GETTING FROM US IS EEEWWWW!!! As in a marriage or any other relationship a person has to look at how it was taken, not just what was said. I'm sorry that you feel it was a waste of a day, I'm still jazzed.
And Oakspear, I'm glad that you seemed to get my joke about your photo. I'm glad that we had this go-round too.
Now before anyone says anything..... I know that first century Christians were killed in large numbers. It is just that they were taught to be harmless as doves.
I believe that when Nero blamed them for the burning of Rome it was to cover up his own madness.
And when the early Christians were accused of hating mankind what the Roman government was really doing was accusing the Christians of rejecting the many Roman style of culture and it's excesses.
What I'm trying to get at before I go that I believe that the early Christians had enough persecutions without having to add the offense of being self-important and offensive on top of everything else.
And in the course of history when the Christians persecuted they were just as wicked.
I just got caught up with this, and I want to say other than the whole pagan thing, Oakspear speaks for me. I was going to respond to some of the comments and he stated what I would have said as good or better than I would have said it. This post is just to announce that someone else (e.g. me) agrees with him.
I am honing in on Oaks "mess with." I have never encountered that usage outside of southern vernacular. Are you sure you don't have roots in grits, although it may be distant. We go out to the garden and pick a mess of beans.
I think in one form or another we all sometimes mess with one another in these forums, threads....
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Oakspear
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JeffSjo
Well Oakspear, :blink:
I just checked out your profile when I got here but before I logged back on And I must say that that is quite some personal photo.
Edited by JeffSjoLink to comment
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Bramble
My last posts on this thread were to Kimberly and Rainbow girl--I had not seen geisha's reply about my 'complaining' prior to my last post to RB, who asked something about prayer.
How people think of me or want for me is their business. How people treat me crosses the line into my business, and I feel I have the right to speak up.
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Oakspear
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RumRunner
Ya know Oakspeare I gotta give you a lot of credit.
There are a lot of folks here who are very kind Christians and god bless'em.
There are a few who are still programmed into waythink
There are a few who will slam TWI and LCM but they remind me of him. Vicious, spitting, witch hunters(tresses), self-righteous, they know god's ways and jesus' ways and you are scum Oakie - you've turned your back on the one true light and nothing but ill awaits you. I admire you for being able to take that kind of snake venom-like verbiage and respond so civilly - if civility is a part of the bible (hmmm lemme scratch my butt for a sec - Love god with all thy heart soul mind and strength and thy neighbor as thyself - OH YEAH - a teaching of jesus!!!) then these venom spitting judges belong in a jihad courtroom instead of faking god's presence.
Oh and since I never named a single poster's name, this post cannot be construed as a personal attack thank you very much.
Well done sir!
So I will tip another ale and play this song for you...BTW if you are ever out this way gimme a holler and I will turn you on to my favorite ale which is named "Arrogant B@st@rd Ale" from Stone Brewing company and whose logo is a gargoyle. We'll down a few of those and some good eats.
The song was released in 1974 by Robert Hunter (former song writer for the Dead) - titled "The Boys in the Barroom"
Does God look down on the boys in the barroom
Mainly forsaken but surely not judged?
Jacks, kings, and aces, their faces in wine
Do Lord deliver our kind
From singing for whiskey, three strings on a fiddle
Four on the guitar and a song that I love
Many's the night we spent picking and singing
In hopes it be pleasing both here and above
Jack string fiddle to my sawtooth bow
Who loves loneliness, loves it alone
I love the dim lights like some love the dew
Only thing I wonder sometimes
Does God look down on the boys in the barroom
Mainly forsaken but surely not judged?
Jacks, kings, and aces, their faces in wine
Do Lord deliver our kind
Edited by RumRunnerLink to comment
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geisha779
I am sorry Jeff but you are going to have to refresh my memory. Where is it anyone said EEEEwwwwww about another person's faith. . . well, let me rephrase. . . . let's limit that to a non christians faith. . .
Who spoke against their Gods? Who said anything like that?
My great offense was to ask a simple question. . . make a joke to Oakspear(Who understood it) and tell BRamble I prayed for her health.
My other offense was to assure her I had no desire to witness to her or share my faith with her. . . . after apologizing for even a hint this might be the case. Thought that is what she wanted. . . . she pretty much said it was. . . .
I used a scripture and the words of Jesus to articulate this point. I have explained that to you once. . . . that is all you get from me.
I am not totally unaware that Wiccans consider proselytizing insulting. I think that has been laid out fairly well.
SO. . . .
If you hope they believe as you do. . . good for you. Honestly, I don't care. A no thank-you is good enough for me.
I believe as I do. . . they as they do. . . . I never said EEEEwwwwww about Wicca, witchcraft, or dancing naked under the pale moon light for that matter.
I made a joke to Oakspear. . . not the first time either. . . and because I did. . . . we are now two weeks into this thread.
If I could be plainer I would. . . . but here goes. . . . I don't care what faith they practice. . . it has little or NOTHING to do with me.
Maybe some think I should care. . . . that is their right. . . .but, we DO have freewill to choose what we want!
Again, I think MOST Wiccans are gentle people. How does their faith affect my life? Guess what? It doesn't. At all.
I will pass the mantle of holding out hope for them to you. . . . all yours. . . enjoy. . . . . . . go for it!
:)
What a waste of a day off.
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sirguessalot
thanks RumRun...sounds like fun
ive met a few gscers in san diego before, too
...cant recall what we drank though
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Oakspear
To summarize my position as it pertains to this thread:
I really did get that geisha was joking with me, she also gets it when I mess with her.
I started this thread to get a better feel for what Christians were thinking when they pray for the non-Christian's soul. I was not surprised at the answers, but feel a bit better educated about the mind set.
I don't have any problem with Christianity, or most Christians, but am mildly annoyed and slightly offended when I my beliefs are considered inferior; annoyed and offended, but not surprised: I understand where they are coming from because I've been there.
I also understand that some of what I say can be considered offensive to Christians. I try not to be, but sometimes it can't be avoided.
When threads contain vigorous debate, they can be a lot of fun, and mentally stimulating. To me they're less enjoyable when they are full of people talking past each other and misunderstanding or even misrepresenting others' positions.
Thanks for playing!
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RumRunner
For those who believe in jesus commanding people to hell for various forms of idolatry.... excerpts from a letter from Thomas Jefferson to The Reverend Benjamin Waterhouse (June 26, 1822) in an assault on organized religion...
"That good works, or the love of our neighbor, are nothing." (Read M&A)
"That faith is everything, and the more incomprehensible the proposition, the more merit in its faith." (Read PFAL)
"That God, from the beginning, elected certain individuals to be saved, and others to be damned; and that no crimes of the former can damn them; no virtues of the latter save." (Read Victor Paul Drunk Wierwille's sexual assault on women, perversions of the bible, and drunken debauchery)
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JeffSjo
This thread has covered a lot of territory, and I said before, I was jazzed to see in the scriptures the possibilities. I think that in the first century that if the early Christains had tried to chase the pagans out of town that they would have been slaughtered.
But I don't think that for them it was just a matter of survival.I think it was a matter of holding onto the concept of them not being better than anyone else.
When I think of established Christianity burning pagans at the stake as it has happened several times over several centuries I get just as mad as when my former splinter group deliberately wrecked my life even though in their own twisted manner they covered their actions with scripture references and the appearance of a viable ministry.
From my consideration of the scriptures I don't see any other good course besides keeping my Christian beliefs and caring for the welfare of those who don't believe in Christ as much as God who sends the rain on the just and the unjust alike.
I agree with Bramble in one respect for sure, that she has the right to speak up when she feels she has been mistreated.
And to Geisha, I did not say that you said EEEEWWWWWW to anyone. What I said is that they deserve to get more from us than EEEWWWW. I meant that if for all our scripture quoting or belief in Christ, that if they feel looked down on then all they ARE GETTING FROM US IS EEEWWWW!!! As in a marriage or any other relationship a person has to look at how it was taken, not just what was said. I'm sorry that you feel it was a waste of a day, I'm still jazzed.
And Oakspear, I'm glad that you seemed to get my joke about your photo. I'm glad that we had this go-round too.
(edited for spelling)
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JeffSjo
Now before anyone says anything..... I know that first century Christians were killed in large numbers. It is just that they were taught to be harmless as doves.
I believe that when Nero blamed them for the burning of Rome it was to cover up his own madness.
And when the early Christians were accused of hating mankind what the Roman government was really doing was accusing the Christians of rejecting the many Roman style of culture and it's excesses.
What I'm trying to get at before I go that I believe that the early Christians had enough persecutions without having to add the offense of being self-important and offensive on top of everything else.
And in the course of history when the Christians persecuted they were just as wicked.
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Mister P-Mosh
I just got caught up with this, and I want to say other than the whole pagan thing, Oakspear speaks for me. I was going to respond to some of the comments and he stated what I would have said as good or better than I would have said it. This post is just to announce that someone else (e.g. me) agrees with him.
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kimberly
I am honing in on Oaks "mess with." I have never encountered that usage outside of southern vernacular. Are you sure you don't have roots in grits, although it may be distant. We go out to the garden and pick a mess of beans.
I think in one form or another we all sometimes mess with one another in these forums, threads....
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