And I'm not motivated in all this effort by thinking I'm going to discover something that the Lord hasn't previously communicated in much more simple and direct fashion. If you want to know why I'm doing this, all I can say is go listen to "Won't Get Fooled Again" by the Who. Fooled by Wierwille! Fooled by CES/STFI! Fooled by Dale Sides! Fooled by Momentus! "Won't Get Fooled Again"
Love,
Steve
Steve,
My pastor told an interesting story today.
He was walking down the street and there was a great big hole and he fell in. Well, it took him awhile, and all his effort, but he eventually climbed out of the hole.
Yet again, he was walking down the street and fell into a great big hole and had to climb out. It was a difficult process, but he finally got out of the hole.
The third time he walked down the street and fell into the hole, he got out much more quickly.
The next time he saw the hole, he walked around it. . . . .and the next time he saw the hole, he realized he needed to be taking a different street.
I don't think I would use the word "mystery" the way you do, because it's one of the words that was particularly abused by Darby and Wierwille, and I am still not sure I've got it figured out. But there is this... all language is metaphoric in nature, and every simile or metaphor will fail if it's pushed too far. The things Paul and others wanted to communicate about God and Jesus Christ were far too vast to be expressed in a single metaphor. I think there has to be a leap of imagination, inspired by the Spirit of God, to grasp the core meanings and relations between the metaphors. The words of the Word are far too small a box to pack all of God into.
Steve,
I have to wonder about this? I am sure there is something you are articulating that I am not grasping here.....remember I am blond. However, it concerns me a bit when I read this above... especially in light of your following paragraph concerning your motivation for not being lead astray again.
2 Peter 3
14So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. 15Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
Read in VP et al.
Although the things Paul wrote were difficult to understand, this was NOT to be the jumping off point for leaps of imagination. This is where false teachers take their opportunity. We can't keep falling into this trap. Paul's teachings, just like Peter's, were being distorted by apostate false teachers, not enemies on the other side of the planet wearing different uniforms. By those who were among them. At this time, Paul was already gone, and the message they were distorting was.... the day of the Lord, judgment, and His return...... they also attacked who Jesus is....
How were the believers to conduct themselves in these times? Amidst these things? Spotless and blameless.
Peter sums it up in one basic truth...But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity.
Any teaching that does not give Jesus Christ His full glory right now and throughout eternity....is false, leads to destruction, is unstable, and leads one astray. Paul writes of salvation.
Where does the leap of imagination enter? Look at Paul's teaching, his confession, and his focus. There is no where to go beyond that beginning and end. Some of us haven't even gotten there yet. What else is there that our imagination has to conjur?
There is no hidden knowledge. That is what the false teachers were teaching.....because they were living immoral lifestyles, and they were trying to get people to join. They were taking Paul's words and twisting them to justify immoral living. "All you have is this silly promise". But, they had hidden knowledge ...which btw excused their lifestyle. Sound familiar?
Jesus wasn't enough for them.....they wanted something else. They rejected Him and imagined something that would satisfy their senses.
This is where we keep getting tripped up......Jesus Christ ..... there is nothing else...and certainly nothing better.....and we can understand what Paul is saying IF we keep our focus on what he was speaking to....Jesus Christ.
A quest for some other knowledge or wisdom...only enslaves us. Sorry, I mean no offense, but a leap of imagination comes when we are trying to rationalize a belief or lifestyle.
He was walking down the street and there was a great big hole and he fell in. Well, it took him awhile, and all his effort, but he eventually climbed out of the hole.
Yet again, he was walking down the street and fell into a great big hole and had to climb out. It was a difficult process, but he finally got out of the hole.
The third time he walked down the street and fell into the hole, he got out much more quickly.
The next time he saw the hole, he walked around it. . . . .and the next time he saw the hole, he realized he needed to be taking a different street.
Is there something that is causing one to keep traveling these dangerous roads? That is the question I would be asking myself and the Lord.
I wouldn't be asking about words and their meaning, but, which way is my compass pointing.
Not about Stoics and neo-Platonists, but who is guiding me.
There is a path, and it's gate is narrow, which means there is not much room to wander far afield....or carry in too much baggage.
I like that road. It comes with a personal guide who loves us and leads us away from holes when we keep our eyes on Him.
Enough metaphors for you yet? LOL. ...We will do parables next. :)
John 10: 7-9
7Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
9I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
Notice I left out verse 10?
To all,
I’m gonna have to deviate a bit here. I think Steve and many of the rest of us here actually “know him that is true”; we “know him and the power of his resurrection”, “the fellowship of his sufferings and have been made “conformable to his death”.
It’s the next step in critical thinking as regards “it is written” that needs to be taken (and not with blinders on as you so skillfully speak to). The Dale Sides, VP’s and others (including you and me) must only be listened to when we speak ex cathedra (just kidding…)…OK when we “say what the Word says”. And if “they” say something different (or if it sounds like BS) we need to stand up and question it with all our might. We need to walk out on stupidity; on high-mindedness, on theological know-it-alls, on preachers who lift themselves up to the pulpit and proclaim their “connections” with the Almighty. Avoid those at all costs (somebody with a bonifide connection won’t be proclaiming it to the world…he/she will be doing miracles and signs and wonders as their calling cards).
Another interesting remark passed my desk this morning. I’m an engineer (by profession) and we are doing some work with a Chinese Baptist congregation (really…Chinese Baptists). They were thinking of moving into a building and renovating it to serve their needs. Then a synogogue building came up for sale (hard times for everyone I guess) and they decided, quite quickly, that this building would need less work and that they could move right in. My boss stopped into my office and remarked how easy this was and I said (quite presciently, I might add…I’m not too full of myself am I?), “Well they all have altars don’t they?” He stopped and thought about it…and I thought about it. He said, “I guess so.” (He’s Eastern Orthodox); and I said, “Damn, it shouldn’t be so. Churches shouldn’t have them.”
That’s not only the engineer speaking, but the theologian. The ensuing conversation evolved into the whys and wherefore’s of altars (hey, not all churches have them, but this one did and many “high” churches do and if not an altar, there is at least a raised dias and a pulpit). I talked of Jesus’ mission to “throw them down” (metaphorically, BTW) as part of his attempt (and fulfillment for believers, BTW) to bring us into greater fellowship with to God and his Son. This went on for quite some time. My boss has had five years of this type of thing.
Long story short: It made me realize how we ,ourselves and I lift up (literally) personalities to lead us and they are woefully inadequate to do so. Those that are most successful have a coterie of helps and governments around them and they realize they are not “the show” (think Billy G.) and they build up lives and not tear them down. We know who “the Show” is and we worship Him only. We listen to His Son (and Him, BTW) and we strive to walk worthy of His calling wherewith we are (presently) called. It’s all in the church epistles. We do not think more highly than we ought, but we do “seek those things that are above, where Christ sits at the right hand of God”. It takes work, hard work to keep yourself and your family out of the spiritual soup that we are always swimming in; that theological bouliabase. If something smells fishy (love the pun?) leave.
He was walking down the street and there was a great big hole and he fell in. Well, it took him awhile, and all his effort, but he eventually climbed out of the hole.
Yet again, he was walking down the street and fell into a great big hole and had to climb out. It was a difficult process, but he finally got out of the hole.
The third time he walked down the street and fell into the hole, he got out much more quickly.
The next time he saw the hole, he walked around it. . . . .and the next time he saw the hole, he realized he needed to be taking a different street.
Is there something that is causing one to keep traveling these dangerous roads? That is the question I would be asking myself and the Lord.
I wouldn't be asking about words and their meaning, but, which way is my compass pointing.
Not about Stoics and neo-Platonists, but who is guiding me.
There is a path, and it's gate is narrow, which means there is not much room to wander far afield....or carry in too much baggage.
I like that road. It comes with a personal guide who loves us and leads us away from holes when we keep our eyes on Him.
Thirty-seven years ago I told the Lord I would do whatever He wanted me to do, as long as I was sure that it was His will. That was six years before I ever heard of TWI and seven years before I took Foundational PFAL for the first time. Looking back over those thiry-seven years, and indeed, my whole life, I can see how the Lord has been guiding me every step of the way. He guided me INTO all of those great big holes, or "pit-traps" if I may extend your pastor's metaphor. I don't see them as a horizontal series of holes in the road, rather I see them as nested. CES/STFI was a pit-trap located in the floor of the TWI pit-trap. Momentus was a pit-trap located in the floor of the CES/STFI pit-trap. I didn't fall all the way down Dale Sides' hole. It was just sort of there to give me some binocular vision.
I am convinced that my Guide led me into all of those things. He put His hand over the eyes of my understanding until I reached the time and place where He wanted me to be, and then He took his hand away. Why would my loving Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ do something like that?
In post #104 (page 6) of this thread, geisha, you wrote:
"It is funny you mention Momentus, I saw it mentioned on another thread... I think by you. Being somewhat unfamiliar, but often hearing it mentioned, I googled it. It took me to Factnet. I started reading this really great article, I was really moved. So I was curious, and when I looked to see who wrote it. It was YOU!
"I cannot applaud you enough for your courage in coming forth and sharing in such an intimate and important a manner. I was so touched and filled with respect. Momentus sounds like hell... the absence of God."
So you see, the job Jesus (as Master) gave to me (as servant) to do, was to experience falling into all those pit-traps, to observe Him as He led me out, and then to write about it. That's what I was doing when I wrote about Momentus. That's what I'm still doing as I conduct this thread.
And I can't take the credit for it. The courage you applaud came from Jesus Who heartened me at crucial times along the way. The respect you are filled with belongs to Him!
The last time He took His hand from before my eyes, so I could see where I really was, happened early in 1996. It was a little over a year since I had become a "grad" of Momentus, and my life SUCKED with a giant whooshing noise. When He took His hand off, He pointed out Jeremiah 17:5 to me, "Thus saith the Lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord. For he shall be like the heath in the desert, and shall not see when good cometh; but shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness, in a salt land and not inhabited."
ME!!!! A Christian... under an "OLD TESTAMENT" curse???????????
Then He showed me how a person can release a mouse that's got its head caught in a trap by disengaging the trap's spring from its snare, and He showed me that disengaging the spring from the snare is what the Bible calls "repentence". But in order for repentence to be affective, a person has to know what he's repenting of. In some ways, this thread is my public repentence for buying into and teaching Wierwille's eisegesis.
I don't see them as a horizontal series of holes in the road, rather I see them as nested.
Me too, Steve. And although i can guess that most Christians, perhaps even yourself, will consider me non-Christian, i feel its worth adding that so much of what you wrote reminds me of a developmental view of faith...where every stage of faith has a valid and valuable purpose, but rather than being completely discarded when their limits are reached, they are, in a sense, swallowed whole by a larger faith. As if our view of God and scripture is being pushed to be "repotted" from time to time, and if it has been a long time since we've experienced such earthquakes, we may even be overdue.
And along with "nested," i would include words like "unfolding," and "blooming." Like how a cross section of a flower's path of growth presents an opening into greater fullness that reaches out in all directions..."linear-multiplied"…and expansive in a way that includes the "gold" of all previous ways, yet does not include their limits.
I personally find comfort and wisdom in knowing that wherever i think i am with my faith...it is only temporary…and necessary as such….so i am less-disturbed when the cracks start to show...and more freely able to walk through the fires of humiliation without shame...private or public....but especially private.
Like an over-arching "faith in the developing nature of faith."
Thirty-seven years ago I told the Lord I would do whatever He wanted me to do, as long as I was sure that it was His will. That was six years before I ever heard of TWI and seven years before I took Foundational PFAL for the first time. Looking back over those thiry-seven years, and indeed, my whole life, I can see how the Lord has been guiding me every step of the way. He guided me INTO all of those great big holes, ...
Thanks for sharing the secret to a Holey Life.
I'm sorry I couldn't help it
Hey yesterday I wrote this big post for this thread and then made it vanish by hitting the wrong button I think my post fell into a hole.... <sniff>
Genesis 2:7a says, "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground..."
It doesn't say God formed man's body of the dust of the ground... it says god formed MAN of the dust of the ground. Let's explore some other verses that talk about this dust component.
"In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return." Genesis 3:19
Till YOU return unto the ground, for out of it were YOU taken. Dust YOU are, and unto dust will YOU return.
"And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes:" Genesis 18:27
I... am... dust and ashes.
"For he knoweth our frame; he remembereth that we are dust." Psalm 103:14
WE are dust.
I believe the Bible consistently associates identity, the "me" that makes me "me", with my dust component.
Jesus warns us to beware of false teachers who devour....and no shepherd I know of....throws His lambs to the wolves for sport. He watches over them and protects them. He won these victories already....not us....and I have never heard anyone say the Lord lead them into darkness. EVER!
As servants we are to bring glory to is name..... not blame.
Jesus lead you into the pit? Really? Jesus Christ who lived a perfect life in your stead.....suffered and died for your sins.... lead you into a brood of vipers? Guided you there? And blinded you too?
The Holy Spirit guides us into all truth. But, Jesus lead you into confusion and evil? Because that is what these groups are.
Jesus is the door of the sheep....which means, no one gets by Him. He guided you out the door?
Jesus pulls us out of the pit, and we fall in when we take our eyes off Him. But, Jesus lead you into the pit instead?
We are redeemed from the "curse" of the law....and rescued from the power of darkness. No?
Jesus put His hands over your eyes? Really? The same Jesus who heals the blind? The one who sets the captives free? He lead you to be enslaved again so you could write about it?
2 Corinthians 4:4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. That is what we were blinded from seeing in TWI.
One of the worst theological errors you can make.....is attributing to the Lord the works of the devil....
Psalm 119:176
I have strayed like a lost sheep. Seek your servant, for I have not forgotten your commands.
The Lord is to be glorified, not held responsible for our own willful blindness. Don't forget, I was there too....by my own doing in seeking something other than Him. By letting my ears be tickled....and hearing exactly what I wanted to. That is how I got tricked. Scripture tells us how we are tricked. It isn't Jesus doing it. It also tells us in Jude how to rescue those caught up in apostasy. . ..
These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. And of some have compassion, making a difference:And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
God doesn't lead us into this...blind us and then have us tell about it. He says be careful...pray...keep yourselves in His love and look for the MERCY of the Lord...save them with fear...because He doesn't want us burned or caught up in these things. He is able to keep us from falling.
Being blind is not sanctification....that must be something those of you who "understand correctly" about Jesus get.....it is not the Lord I know.
Carry on.... I left this kind of thing years ago. Jesus is worthy of all praise, honor, and glory.
The way (pardon that would'ja?) I see it, ol'e Jesus has left the pen and gone out to round up Steve and corral him where he belongs. But that lil sheep keeps running off,.... Still, the shepard has been persistant, but every time that lil sheep sees the shepard approaching, off he goes again! It's almost as if the sheep thinks the shepard is trying to GET him! Now these wild runs from the shepard have led to quite a few pitfalls, from which this sheep has always eventually been rescued. Though it takes a while for the shepard to get the bleating lil guy out of the holes he's fallen into, he always places him back on the path to the door. He doesn't regret running the thief off on occasion,.... It's his sheep - after all.
You know, serving aboard a submarine was not particularly pleasant, but I did it because that's what I volunteered to do.
Being under the curse of Jeremiah 17:5 was not particularly pleasant, but I did it because that's what I volunteered to do when I told the Lord I would do whatever He wanted me to do.
You can believe whatever you please. I was there. The Lord and I have spent years discussing this.
You know, serving aboard a submarine was not particularly pleasant, but I did it because that's what I volunteered to do.
Being under the curse of Jeremiah 17:5 was not particularly pleasant, but I did it because that's what I volunteered to do when I told the Lord I would do whatever He wanted me to do.
You can believe whatever you please. I was there. The Lord and I have spent years discussing this.
Love,
Steve
I believe you Steve.
But the false doctrine you believed in various places, I'm not going to pin responsibility for those beliefs on God,
As you say, He took His hand from before your eyes,... I just don't think He put it there.
While God may lead you places, your shepard, Jesus, was faithful to retrieve you. Something you seem to agree with.
I don't understand.
You seem to be saying that you're not responsible for getting into ugly situations
because your God blinded your eyes so that you wouldn't see the truth....
But the false doctrine you believed in various places, I'm not going to pin responsibility for those beliefs on God,
As you say, He took His hand from before your eyes,... I just don't think He put it there.
While God may lead you places, your shepard, Jesus, was faithful to retrieve you. Something you seem to agree with.
I don't understand.
You seem to be saying that you're not responsible for getting into ugly situations
because your God blinded your eyes so that you wouldn't see the truth....
That sounds oddly familiar
No... I'm not saying I bear no responsibility. But why, when I was sitting in the Scientology Temple receiving a pitch, did the Lord tell me to scoot, yet on the other hand why did He orchestrate things so the very first twig teaching I heard was about something He had shown me supernaturally just a few months before? Why the Way? There were plenty of other cults around? Why did the Lord put me in Minnesota when I was there? Why did He put me in Indiana to get involved with CES? He DID open the eyes of my understanding at crucial points. Why didn't He do it sooner?
Yes, the metaphor (which requires a leap of the imagination to understand) of Jesus being a good shepherd is a wonderful thing. But He is also my Lord (which is also a metaphor that raises different images). If He tells me to do something, I'm supposed to do it, even if it's not pleasant. Jonah comes to mind. Does He want everybody to do the same job? No! But I am as certain as I am of anything that the job I have described is the job Jesus preserved and equipped me to do. If a person doesn't think Jesus would do something like that, then perhaps their view of what it means to be Lord is a little narrow.
By the way, Gen-2, there's a book called The Origins of Stoic Cosmology by David E. Hahm you might like if you enjoy wrapping your mind around paradigm shifts. They had a concept called "tonic motion", and I often wonder if Stoic scientists might have been able to get to string theory without going through atomic theory. I have recently seen a feature of a verse in Paul's writing that may depend on understanding "tonic motion" to get the full significance.
I hear you Steve. And I'm not "after you" by the way, in case you might think I am - no malice here.
Perhaps the trick is to move along to the next place in life God sends you, armed with all you've learned and be able to not be fooled again.
This time you just keep your eyes wide open and stay your hand. Don't give your heart away cheaply anymore. It's been your undoing.
Sometimes we get ourselves into situations and let them overtake us and God ends up having to kick us. This often takes the form of us crying unto the Lord and He hears us and delivers us from all our distresses. Later down the road we once again find ourselves crying out. My guess is you recognize the verse/verses I'm paraphrasing there. Hey you gave the Old Testament example earlier and the Who's song title. You seem to be piecing the answer to this all together yourself here.
The pattern isn't new Psalm 120 is the short form; may seem a little harsh but it's worth looking at.
Then re-read Psalm 107. God tells you why this stuff happens.
You're a good man, but pride is a wide hole. In the past you've allowed others to purchase your heart with a promise of a seat at their table, and then your hand goes up. You've just got to pay more attention and keep that from happening again. Sometimes the best seat at the table is the one no one cares to sit in.
No... I'm not saying I bear no responsibility. But why, when I was sitting in the Scientology Temple receiving a pitch, did the Lord tell me to scoot, yet on the other hand why did He orchestrate things so the very first twig teaching I heard was about something He had shown me supernaturally just a few months before? Why the Way? There were plenty of other cults around? Why did the Lord put me in Minnesota when I was there? Why did He put me in Indiana to get involved with CES? He DID open the eyes of my understanding at crucial points. Why didn't He do it sooner?
Yes, the metaphor (which requires a leap of the imagination to understand) of Jesus being a good shepherd is a wonderful thing. But He is also my Lord (which is also a metaphor that raises different images). If He tells me to do something, I'm supposed to do it, even if it's not pleasant. Jonah comes to mind. Does He want everybody to do the same job? No! But I am as certain as I am of anything that the job I have described is the job Jesus preserved and equipped me to do. If a person doesn't think Jesus would do something like that, then perhaps their view of what it means to be Lord is a little narrow.
Love,
Steve
Hey Steve,
To me you owe no justifications for your time in The Way International, but then I don't usually bother explaining myself to anybody that tries to put me down for it. And for whatever it's worth to you, sometimes I act like people are putting me down for it when they aren't, and other times people do put me down for it but that's not usually to my face.
What else can we do but trust the Lord to lead us on? If we do have anything genuinely good to contribute to ANY group we now belong to I can only hope that we can prove that good and perfect will of God with all patience and forbearnce...you know...biblical Christianity. :)
I never heard anybody who read the bible insult David for the horrors that would have kiled and/or ruined most of us. But there are Psalms that indicate that David knew what it was to be a gazingstock(Isn't that the word Paul used?...hmmm) to everybody around him.
Jesus suffered the crucifiction and even before hand in OT scripture it is prophecied that he was esteemed smitten by God and people hid their faces from him, yet in truth he was doing God's will.
I can only hope you learn and see the things you need to to be led by the Lord Steve. I will say it without the unwelcome commentary on my part as concerning your time in The Way and CES though.
By the way, Gen-2, there's a book called The Origins of Stoic Cosmology by David E. Hahm you might like if you enjoy wrapping your mind around paradigm shifts. They had a concept called "tonic motion", and I often wonder if Stoic scientists might have been able to get to string theory without going through atomic theory. I have recently seen a feature of a verse in Paul's writing that may depend on understanding "tonic motion" to get the full significance.
Love,
Steve
Considering what Gen-2 has shared about her work and education this might work for her but because I don't have a clue as to physics I wouldn't touch this one with a ten foot pole.
I never believed in the trinity until the day I reasoned that instead of 1 + 1 + 1 = 1 I realized 0 + 0 + 0 = 0...
I had to take another honest look at what constituted divinity. From glory to glory.
I understood how God can be both inside the tent and totally outside the realm of the tent at the same time. How can nothing have a position or actual location? To say ok, here is where I put nothing...
Suddenly I felt I had discovered the logic of the ancients. Today I believe that Jesus is God in one angle... Just as certain abstract mathematical equations can come up with two right answers. When we take off the armor, gear, trappings of God and get down to our skivvies we are all fueled by the selfsame spirit.
The new birth is zero. Yes there is one God, who is zero. :)
By the way, Gen-2, there's a book called The Origins of Stoic Cosmology by David E. Hahm you might like if you enjoy wrapping your mind around paradigm shifts. They had a concept called "tonic motion", and I often wonder if Stoic scientists might have been able to get to string theory without going through atomic theory. I have recently seen a feature of a verse in Paul's writing that may depend on understanding "tonic motion" to get the full significance.
Love,
Steve
I'll look into this this weekend Steve. I wonder if this is related to that old Motus Tonicus of the German guy Stahl {which I think is a crock} but that theory was sort of Voodoo medical science anyways. A Tantric thriller that could have explained eternal life or could have been a recipie for schnitzel.
Oh... And string theory arose out of fractal mathematics, not Physics. It probably wouldn't have been pursued if it were not for computers and Mandlebrot sets, Those things are incredibly full of cascading repeating algorithms, but only when you start plotting them and graphing them do you see that each fractal can form a different, detailed picture. It's eerie that these things seem like instructions, blueprints if you will, for things we see in nature. But mostly - they were pretty! Just google Mandlebrot Set and look at some "images''.
Well they let Particle Physicists in on this and M-Theory quickly arose and proved to be a mess. Then the Astronomers and Quantum Phycisists like me got a hold of it and we just started guessing about everything in a free-for-all of excitement (we're so undisciplined). Soon there was almost as much laughter as fact!
We're still sorting out the mess we made. Right now it's other dimensions, God Particles and anything "nano" that causes great gushes of excitement and funding. As for String Theory,... most of the physicists don't know all the math and they are an unhappy and denying lot when they're made to look foolish.
I look forward to Tonic motion though. I have a glass with ice in it standing by.................!
I'll look into this this weekend Steve. I wonder if this is related to that old Motus Tonicus of the German guy Stahl {which I think is a crock} but that theory was sort of Voodoo medical science anyways. A Tantric thriller that could have explained eternal life or could have been a recipie for schnitzel.
Oh... And string theory arose out of fractal mathematics, not Physics. It probably wouldn't have been pursued if it were not for computers and Mandlebrot sets, Those things are incredibly full of cascading repeating algorithms, but only when you start plotting them and graphing them do you see that each fractal can form a different, detailed picture. It's eerie that these things seem like instructions, blueprints if you will, for things we see in nature. But mostly - they were pretty! Just google Mandlebrot Set and look at some "images''.
Well they let Particle Physicists in on this and M-Theory quickly arose and proved to be a mess. Then the Astronomers and Quantum Phycisists like me got a hold of it and we just started guessing about everything in a free-for-all of excitement (we're so undisciplined). Soon there was almost as much laughter as fact!
We're still sorting out the mess we made. Right now it's other dimensions, God Particles and anything "nano" that causes great gushes of excitement and funding. As for String Theory,... most of the physicists don't know all the math and they are an unhappy and denying lot when they're made to look foolish.
I look forward to Tonic motion though. I have a glass with ice in it standing by.................!
It seems like it would be a lot of fun to sit across the kitchen table drinking beer and talking till the wee small hours of the morning... except alcohol and my meds don't play well together anymore.
I'm certainly no expert in physics or math, I've just been exposed to enough of it stand in awe those who are. What's the current standing of chaos theory? I understand string theory has had a number of ups and downs. I was exposed to Mandelbrot sets in a book on chaos theory. It seems like an interesting method for God to use a few simple principles to generate seemingless endless variety that still exhibits qualities of beauty and order.
Mixing physics and theology can be intriguing. What do you make of Ecclesiastes 9:11?
Well, we were looking at Genesis 2:7, "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath [neshamah "breath"] of life; and man became a living soul."
You notice I've included the Hebrew word neshamah, which I believe to be correctly translated "breath". But before we can look at neshamah, I want to look at ruach, which means "air in motion", as it's used in Ezekiel 37:
"1 The hand of the Lord was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit [ruach 'air in motion'] of the Lord, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,
"2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.
"3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord God, thou knowest.
"4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the Lord.
"5 Thus saith the Lord God unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath [ruach 'air in motion'] to enter into you, and ye shall live:
"6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath [ruach 'air in motion'] in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the Lord.
"7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.
"8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath [ruach 'air in motion'] in them.
"9 Then he said unto me, prophesy unto the wind [ruach 'air in motion'], prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind [ruach 'air in motion'], Thus saith the Lord God; Come from the four winds [ruach 'air in motion'], O breath [ruach 'air in motion'], and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
"10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath [ruach 'air in motion'] came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.
"11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
"12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
"13 And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves.
"14 And shall put my spirit [ruach 'air in motion'] in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the Lord have spoken it, and performed it, saith the Lord.
The word ruach occurs ten times in these fourteen verses. Twice ruach is translated "spirit", interestingly enough in the first and the fourteenth verses, with reference to the Spirit of God, five times it is translated "breath", and three times as "wind". In the entire Old Testament, ruach is translated "spirit" 232 times, "breath" 28 times and "wind" 90 times. All the rest of the English words used to translate ruach are in the single digits. The literal meaning of ruach is doubtlessly "air in motion". So what does the word "spirit" really mean?
In antiquity, before the days of electronic monitoring equipment, or even an awareness of what the pulse meant, the surest way to tell whether or not a person was alive was by finding out if that person was breathing. If air was moving in and out of his body, he was alive. If air wasn't moving in and out of his body, he was dead. Because air moving in and out of the body was so closely associated with life, ruach took on the figurative meaning of "life as evidenced by the power to move".
When Genesis 1:2 says "the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters", its figurative meaning is that the life of God, as evidenced by His power to move, exerted itself in what He had created.
So why does Genesis 2:7 say God breathed into man's nostrils the breath [neshamah] of life instead of the spirit [ruach] of life? Well, to the best of my understanding, all breath is wind, or air in motion, but not all wind moves in and out of bodies. Some wind just blows about wherever it pleases.
So the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, got his respiration going, and man became a living soul.
More before long. Remember, we're on the trail of Wierwille's accuracy in his definition of salvation.
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geisha779
Hebrews 4:12 .. . . to whom is it written? It was written to the Jews who had intellectually agreed to the gospel, the facts about Jesus, the authority and power of the 1st century church, but were no
geisha779
Hey Gen-2 I am curious what people think strong meat really is? :) Perhaps it is. . . to the measure of the stature of the fullness in Christ. . . . and not some super-duper special x-ray ability,
cman
Excuse me there Bob, but your post has a narrow view. I will not use the word you used to describe a perspective. Other words come to mind. But, you are, as all, entitled to your own works.
year2027
God first
thanks Steve
I see your understand it better than me
because the body and soul are two stages of three but i never saw it was two parts of creation
and i love the poem your mom taught you
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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geisha779
Steve,
My pastor told an interesting story today.
He was walking down the street and there was a great big hole and he fell in. Well, it took him awhile, and all his effort, but he eventually climbed out of the hole.
Yet again, he was walking down the street and fell into a great big hole and had to climb out. It was a difficult process, but he finally got out of the hole.
The third time he walked down the street and fell into the hole, he got out much more quickly.
The next time he saw the hole, he walked around it. . . . .and the next time he saw the hole, he realized he needed to be taking a different street.
_____________________________________________________________________________________
Is there something that is causing one to keep traveling these dangerous roads? That is the question I would be asking myself and the Lord.
I wouldn't be asking about words and their meaning, but, which way is my compass pointing.
Not about Stoics and neo-Platonists, but who is guiding me.
There is a path, and it's gate is narrow, which means there is not much room to wander far afield....or carry in too much baggage.
I like that road. It comes with a personal guide who loves us and leads us away from holes when we keep our eyes on Him.
Enough metaphors for you yet? LOL. ...We will do parables next. :)
John 10: 7-9
7Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
9I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
Notice I left out verse 10?
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geisha779
Steve,
I have to wonder about this? I am sure there is something you are articulating that I am not grasping here.....remember I am blond. However, it concerns me a bit when I read this above... especially in light of your following paragraph concerning your motivation for not being lead astray again.
2 Peter 3
14So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. 15Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
Read in VP et al.
Although the things Paul wrote were difficult to understand, this was NOT to be the jumping off point for leaps of imagination. This is where false teachers take their opportunity. We can't keep falling into this trap. Paul's teachings, just like Peter's, were being distorted by apostate false teachers, not enemies on the other side of the planet wearing different uniforms. By those who were among them. At this time, Paul was already gone, and the message they were distorting was.... the day of the Lord, judgment, and His return...... they also attacked who Jesus is....
How were the believers to conduct themselves in these times? Amidst these things? Spotless and blameless.
Peter sums it up in one basic truth...But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity.
Any teaching that does not give Jesus Christ His full glory right now and throughout eternity....is false, leads to destruction, is unstable, and leads one astray. Paul writes of salvation.
Where does the leap of imagination enter? Look at Paul's teaching, his confession, and his focus. There is no where to go beyond that beginning and end. Some of us haven't even gotten there yet. What else is there that our imagination has to conjur?
There is no hidden knowledge. That is what the false teachers were teaching.....because they were living immoral lifestyles, and they were trying to get people to join. They were taking Paul's words and twisting them to justify immoral living. "All you have is this silly promise". But, they had hidden knowledge ...which btw excused their lifestyle. Sound familiar?
Jesus wasn't enough for them.....they wanted something else. They rejected Him and imagined something that would satisfy their senses.
This is where we keep getting tripped up......Jesus Christ ..... there is nothing else...and certainly nothing better.....and we can understand what Paul is saying IF we keep our focus on what he was speaking to....Jesus Christ.
A quest for some other knowledge or wisdom...only enslaves us. Sorry, I mean no offense, but a leap of imagination comes when we are trying to rationalize a belief or lifestyle.
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roberterasmus
To all,
I’m gonna have to deviate a bit here. I think Steve and many of the rest of us here actually “know him that is true”; we “know him and the power of his resurrection”, “the fellowship of his sufferings and have been made “conformable to his death”.
It’s the next step in critical thinking as regards “it is written” that needs to be taken (and not with blinders on as you so skillfully speak to). The Dale Sides, VP’s and others (including you and me) must only be listened to when we speak ex cathedra (just kidding…)…OK when we “say what the Word says”. And if “they” say something different (or if it sounds like BS) we need to stand up and question it with all our might. We need to walk out on stupidity; on high-mindedness, on theological know-it-alls, on preachers who lift themselves up to the pulpit and proclaim their “connections” with the Almighty. Avoid those at all costs (somebody with a bonifide connection won’t be proclaiming it to the world…he/she will be doing miracles and signs and wonders as their calling cards).
Another interesting remark passed my desk this morning. I’m an engineer (by profession) and we are doing some work with a Chinese Baptist congregation (really…Chinese Baptists). They were thinking of moving into a building and renovating it to serve their needs. Then a synogogue building came up for sale (hard times for everyone I guess) and they decided, quite quickly, that this building would need less work and that they could move right in. My boss stopped into my office and remarked how easy this was and I said (quite presciently, I might add…I’m not too full of myself am I?), “Well they all have altars don’t they?” He stopped and thought about it…and I thought about it. He said, “I guess so.” (He’s Eastern Orthodox); and I said, “Damn, it shouldn’t be so. Churches shouldn’t have them.”
That’s not only the engineer speaking, but the theologian. The ensuing conversation evolved into the whys and wherefore’s of altars (hey, not all churches have them, but this one did and many “high” churches do and if not an altar, there is at least a raised dias and a pulpit). I talked of Jesus’ mission to “throw them down” (metaphorically, BTW) as part of his attempt (and fulfillment for believers, BTW) to bring us into greater fellowship with to God and his Son. This went on for quite some time. My boss has had five years of this type of thing.
Long story short: It made me realize how we ,ourselves and I lift up (literally) personalities to lead us and they are woefully inadequate to do so. Those that are most successful have a coterie of helps and governments around them and they realize they are not “the show” (think Billy G.) and they build up lives and not tear them down. We know who “the Show” is and we worship Him only. We listen to His Son (and Him, BTW) and we strive to walk worthy of His calling wherewith we are (presently) called. It’s all in the church epistles. We do not think more highly than we ought, but we do “seek those things that are above, where Christ sits at the right hand of God”. It takes work, hard work to keep yourself and your family out of the spiritual soup that we are always swimming in; that theological bouliabase. If something smells fishy (love the pun?) leave.
RE
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Steve Lortz
Thirty-seven years ago I told the Lord I would do whatever He wanted me to do, as long as I was sure that it was His will. That was six years before I ever heard of TWI and seven years before I took Foundational PFAL for the first time. Looking back over those thiry-seven years, and indeed, my whole life, I can see how the Lord has been guiding me every step of the way. He guided me INTO all of those great big holes, or "pit-traps" if I may extend your pastor's metaphor. I don't see them as a horizontal series of holes in the road, rather I see them as nested. CES/STFI was a pit-trap located in the floor of the TWI pit-trap. Momentus was a pit-trap located in the floor of the CES/STFI pit-trap. I didn't fall all the way down Dale Sides' hole. It was just sort of there to give me some binocular vision.
I am convinced that my Guide led me into all of those things. He put His hand over the eyes of my understanding until I reached the time and place where He wanted me to be, and then He took his hand away. Why would my loving Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ do something like that?
In post #104 (page 6) of this thread, geisha, you wrote:
"It is funny you mention Momentus, I saw it mentioned on another thread... I think by you. Being somewhat unfamiliar, but often hearing it mentioned, I googled it. It took me to Factnet. I started reading this really great article, I was really moved. So I was curious, and when I looked to see who wrote it. It was YOU!
"I cannot applaud you enough for your courage in coming forth and sharing in such an intimate and important a manner. I was so touched and filled with respect. Momentus sounds like hell... the absence of God."
So you see, the job Jesus (as Master) gave to me (as servant) to do, was to experience falling into all those pit-traps, to observe Him as He led me out, and then to write about it. That's what I was doing when I wrote about Momentus. That's what I'm still doing as I conduct this thread.
And I can't take the credit for it. The courage you applaud came from Jesus Who heartened me at crucial times along the way. The respect you are filled with belongs to Him!
The last time He took His hand from before my eyes, so I could see where I really was, happened early in 1996. It was a little over a year since I had become a "grad" of Momentus, and my life SUCKED with a giant whooshing noise. When He took His hand off, He pointed out Jeremiah 17:5 to me, "Thus saith the Lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord. For he shall be like the heath in the desert, and shall not see when good cometh; but shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness, in a salt land and not inhabited."
ME!!!! A Christian... under an "OLD TESTAMENT" curse???????????
Then He showed me how a person can release a mouse that's got its head caught in a trap by disengaging the trap's spring from its snare, and He showed me that disengaging the spring from the snare is what the Bible calls "repentence". But in order for repentence to be affective, a person has to know what he's repenting of. In some ways, this thread is my public repentence for buying into and teaching Wierwille's eisegesis.
Love,
Steve
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sirguessalot
Me too, Steve. And although i can guess that most Christians, perhaps even yourself, will consider me non-Christian, i feel its worth adding that so much of what you wrote reminds me of a developmental view of faith...where every stage of faith has a valid and valuable purpose, but rather than being completely discarded when their limits are reached, they are, in a sense, swallowed whole by a larger faith. As if our view of God and scripture is being pushed to be "repotted" from time to time, and if it has been a long time since we've experienced such earthquakes, we may even be overdue.
And along with "nested," i would include words like "unfolding," and "blooming." Like how a cross section of a flower's path of growth presents an opening into greater fullness that reaches out in all directions..."linear-multiplied"…and expansive in a way that includes the "gold" of all previous ways, yet does not include their limits.
I personally find comfort and wisdom in knowing that wherever i think i am with my faith...it is only temporary…and necessary as such….so i am less-disturbed when the cracks start to show...and more freely able to walk through the fires of humiliation without shame...private or public....but especially private.
Like an over-arching "faith in the developing nature of faith."
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Gen-2
Thanks for sharing the secret to a Holey Life.
I'm sorry I couldn't help it
Hey yesterday I wrote this big post for this thread and then made it vanish by hitting the wrong button I think my post fell into a hole.... <sniff>
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Steve Lortz
Love,
Steve
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Steve Lortz
Genesis 2:7a says, "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground..."
It doesn't say God formed man's body of the dust of the ground... it says god formed MAN of the dust of the ground. Let's explore some other verses that talk about this dust component.
"In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return." Genesis 3:19
Till YOU return unto the ground, for out of it were YOU taken. Dust YOU are, and unto dust will YOU return.
"And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes:" Genesis 18:27
I... am... dust and ashes.
"For he knoweth our frame; he remembereth that we are dust." Psalm 103:14
WE are dust.
I believe the Bible consistently associates identity, the "me" that makes me "me", with my dust component.
Next time we'll look at the "breath" component.
Love,
Steve
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year2027
God first
thanks Steve
So do we have a choice about it?
dust is what we become unless we are changed but how?
the dust does not chance our inner self chances into a spirit seed
from dust to dust but not just dust
we are body, soul, and spirit or Exegesis, Eisegesis, and the line of the circle
or the holy view
the dust of body view
the life of the dust view
and the holy spirit view
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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geisha779
Steve,
Jesus warns us to beware of false teachers who devour....and no shepherd I know of....throws His lambs to the wolves for sport. He watches over them and protects them. He won these victories already....not us....and I have never heard anyone say the Lord lead them into darkness. EVER!
As servants we are to bring glory to is name..... not blame.
Jesus lead you into the pit? Really? Jesus Christ who lived a perfect life in your stead.....suffered and died for your sins.... lead you into a brood of vipers? Guided you there? And blinded you too?
The Holy Spirit guides us into all truth. But, Jesus lead you into confusion and evil? Because that is what these groups are.
Jesus is the door of the sheep....which means, no one gets by Him. He guided you out the door?
Jesus pulls us out of the pit, and we fall in when we take our eyes off Him. But, Jesus lead you into the pit instead?
We are redeemed from the "curse" of the law....and rescued from the power of darkness. No?
Jesus put His hands over your eyes? Really? The same Jesus who heals the blind? The one who sets the captives free? He lead you to be enslaved again so you could write about it?
2 Corinthians 4:4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. That is what we were blinded from seeing in TWI.
One of the worst theological errors you can make.....is attributing to the Lord the works of the devil....
Psalm 119:176
I have strayed like a lost sheep. Seek your servant, for I have not forgotten your commands.
The Lord is to be glorified, not held responsible for our own willful blindness. Don't forget, I was there too....by my own doing in seeking something other than Him. By letting my ears be tickled....and hearing exactly what I wanted to. That is how I got tricked. Scripture tells us how we are tricked. It isn't Jesus doing it. It also tells us in Jude how to rescue those caught up in apostasy. . ..
These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit. But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. And of some have compassion, making a difference: And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh. Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
God doesn't lead us into this...blind us and then have us tell about it. He says be careful...pray...keep yourselves in His love and look for the MERCY of the Lord...save them with fear...because He doesn't want us burned or caught up in these things. He is able to keep us from falling.
Being blind is not sanctification....that must be something those of you who "understand correctly" about Jesus get.....it is not the Lord I know.
Carry on.... I left this kind of thing years ago. Jesus is worthy of all praise, honor, and glory.
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Gen-2
The way (pardon that would'ja?) I see it, ol'e Jesus has left the pen and gone out to round up Steve and corral him where he belongs. But that lil sheep keeps running off,.... Still, the shepard has been persistant, but every time that lil sheep sees the shepard approaching, off he goes again! It's almost as if the sheep thinks the shepard is trying to GET him! Now these wild runs from the shepard have led to quite a few pitfalls, from which this sheep has always eventually been rescued. Though it takes a while for the shepard to get the bleating lil guy out of the holes he's fallen into, he always places him back on the path to the door. He doesn't regret running the thief off on occasion,.... It's his sheep - after all.
baaaa!!!
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Steve Lortz
You know, serving aboard a submarine was not particularly pleasant, but I did it because that's what I volunteered to do.
Being under the curse of Jeremiah 17:5 was not particularly pleasant, but I did it because that's what I volunteered to do when I told the Lord I would do whatever He wanted me to do.
You can believe whatever you please. I was there. The Lord and I have spent years discussing this.
Love,
Steve
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Gen-2
I believe you Steve.
But the false doctrine you believed in various places, I'm not going to pin responsibility for those beliefs on God,
As you say, He took His hand from before your eyes,... I just don't think He put it there.
While God may lead you places, your shepard, Jesus, was faithful to retrieve you. Something you seem to agree with.
I don't understand.
You seem to be saying that you're not responsible for getting into ugly situations
because your God blinded your eyes so that you wouldn't see the truth....
That sounds oddly familiar
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Steve Lortz
No... I'm not saying I bear no responsibility. But why, when I was sitting in the Scientology Temple receiving a pitch, did the Lord tell me to scoot, yet on the other hand why did He orchestrate things so the very first twig teaching I heard was about something He had shown me supernaturally just a few months before? Why the Way? There were plenty of other cults around? Why did the Lord put me in Minnesota when I was there? Why did He put me in Indiana to get involved with CES? He DID open the eyes of my understanding at crucial points. Why didn't He do it sooner?
Yes, the metaphor (which requires a leap of the imagination to understand) of Jesus being a good shepherd is a wonderful thing. But He is also my Lord (which is also a metaphor that raises different images). If He tells me to do something, I'm supposed to do it, even if it's not pleasant. Jonah comes to mind. Does He want everybody to do the same job? No! But I am as certain as I am of anything that the job I have described is the job Jesus preserved and equipped me to do. If a person doesn't think Jesus would do something like that, then perhaps their view of what it means to be Lord is a little narrow.
Love,
Steve
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Steve Lortz
By the way, Gen-2, there's a book called The Origins of Stoic Cosmology by David E. Hahm you might like if you enjoy wrapping your mind around paradigm shifts. They had a concept called "tonic motion", and I often wonder if Stoic scientists might have been able to get to string theory without going through atomic theory. I have recently seen a feature of a verse in Paul's writing that may depend on understanding "tonic motion" to get the full significance.
Love,
Steve
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year2027
God first
thanks Steve
that was the stage you needed my friend
Jesus Christ move us from one stage to another stage
we outgrown The Way Ministry you no longer needed that cain
you saw that hole as a pit but it really was a stage of life
just a path that help you get to place you are
like stones we have to look under
like trail that takes us to place we need to be
many paths to the finish
the Way Ministry had it good points and its bad but from its Bad we could see clearly to find ourself out of the dark
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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Gen-2
I hear you Steve. And I'm not "after you" by the way, in case you might think I am - no malice here.
Perhaps the trick is to move along to the next place in life God sends you, armed with all you've learned and be able to not be fooled again.
This time you just keep your eyes wide open and stay your hand. Don't give your heart away cheaply anymore. It's been your undoing.
Sometimes we get ourselves into situations and let them overtake us and God ends up having to kick us. This often takes the form of us crying unto the Lord and He hears us and delivers us from all our distresses. Later down the road we once again find ourselves crying out. My guess is you recognize the verse/verses I'm paraphrasing there. Hey you gave the Old Testament example earlier and the Who's song title. You seem to be piecing the answer to this all together yourself here.
The pattern isn't new Psalm 120 is the short form; may seem a little harsh but it's worth looking at.
Then re-read Psalm 107. God tells you why this stuff happens.
You're a good man, but pride is a wide hole. In the past you've allowed others to purchase your heart with a promise of a seat at their table, and then your hand goes up. You've just got to pay more attention and keep that from happening again. Sometimes the best seat at the table is the one no one cares to sit in.
Don't be fooled again.
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JeffSjo
Hey Steve,
To me you owe no justifications for your time in The Way International, but then I don't usually bother explaining myself to anybody that tries to put me down for it. And for whatever it's worth to you, sometimes I act like people are putting me down for it when they aren't, and other times people do put me down for it but that's not usually to my face.
What else can we do but trust the Lord to lead us on? If we do have anything genuinely good to contribute to ANY group we now belong to I can only hope that we can prove that good and perfect will of God with all patience and forbearnce...you know...biblical Christianity. :)
I never heard anybody who read the bible insult David for the horrors that would have kiled and/or ruined most of us. But there are Psalms that indicate that David knew what it was to be a gazingstock(Isn't that the word Paul used?...hmmm) to everybody around him.
Jesus suffered the crucifiction and even before hand in OT scripture it is prophecied that he was esteemed smitten by God and people hid their faces from him, yet in truth he was doing God's will.
I can only hope you learn and see the things you need to to be led by the Lord Steve. I will say it without the unwelcome commentary on my part as concerning your time in The Way and CES though.
Considering what Gen-2 has shared about her work and education this might work for her but because I don't have a clue as to physics I wouldn't touch this one with a ten foot pole.
(edited to correct typos)
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DrWearWord
I never believed in the trinity until the day I reasoned that instead of 1 + 1 + 1 = 1 I realized 0 + 0 + 0 = 0...
I had to take another honest look at what constituted divinity. From glory to glory.
I understood how God can be both inside the tent and totally outside the realm of the tent at the same time. How can nothing have a position or actual location? To say ok, here is where I put nothing...
Suddenly I felt I had discovered the logic of the ancients. Today I believe that Jesus is God in one angle... Just as certain abstract mathematical equations can come up with two right answers. When we take off the armor, gear, trappings of God and get down to our skivvies we are all fueled by the selfsame spirit.
The new birth is zero. Yes there is one God, who is zero. :)
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JeffSjo
Hey DrWearWord,
Did you by any chance post this last one of yours in the wrong thread?
JEFF
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Gen-2
I'll look into this this weekend Steve. I wonder if this is related to that old Motus Tonicus of the German guy Stahl {which I think is a crock} but that theory was sort of Voodoo medical science anyways. A Tantric thriller that could have explained eternal life or could have been a recipie for schnitzel.
Oh... And string theory arose out of fractal mathematics, not Physics. It probably wouldn't have been pursued if it were not for computers and Mandlebrot sets, Those things are incredibly full of cascading repeating algorithms, but only when you start plotting them and graphing them do you see that each fractal can form a different, detailed picture. It's eerie that these things seem like instructions, blueprints if you will, for things we see in nature. But mostly - they were pretty! Just google Mandlebrot Set and look at some "images''.
Well they let Particle Physicists in on this and M-Theory quickly arose and proved to be a mess. Then the Astronomers and Quantum Phycisists like me got a hold of it and we just started guessing about everything in a free-for-all of excitement (we're so undisciplined). Soon there was almost as much laughter as fact!
We're still sorting out the mess we made. Right now it's other dimensions, God Particles and anything "nano" that causes great gushes of excitement and funding. As for String Theory,... most of the physicists don't know all the math and they are an unhappy and denying lot when they're made to look foolish.
I look forward to Tonic motion though. I have a glass with ice in it standing by.................!
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Steve Lortz
It seems like it would be a lot of fun to sit across the kitchen table drinking beer and talking till the wee small hours of the morning... except alcohol and my meds don't play well together anymore.
I'm certainly no expert in physics or math, I've just been exposed to enough of it stand in awe those who are. What's the current standing of chaos theory? I understand string theory has had a number of ups and downs. I was exposed to Mandelbrot sets in a book on chaos theory. It seems like an interesting method for God to use a few simple principles to generate seemingless endless variety that still exhibits qualities of beauty and order.
Mixing physics and theology can be intriguing. What do you make of Ecclesiastes 9:11?
Love,
Steve
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Steve Lortz
Well, we were looking at Genesis 2:7, "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath [neshamah "breath"] of life; and man became a living soul."
You notice I've included the Hebrew word neshamah, which I believe to be correctly translated "breath". But before we can look at neshamah, I want to look at ruach, which means "air in motion", as it's used in Ezekiel 37:
"1 The hand of the Lord was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit [ruach 'air in motion'] of the Lord, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,
"2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.
"3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord God, thou knowest.
"4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the Lord.
"5 Thus saith the Lord God unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath [ruach 'air in motion'] to enter into you, and ye shall live:
"6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath [ruach 'air in motion'] in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the Lord.
"7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.
"8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath [ruach 'air in motion'] in them.
"9 Then he said unto me, prophesy unto the wind [ruach 'air in motion'], prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind [ruach 'air in motion'], Thus saith the Lord God; Come from the four winds [ruach 'air in motion'], O breath [ruach 'air in motion'], and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
"10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath [ruach 'air in motion'] came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.
"11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
"12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
"13 And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves.
"14 And shall put my spirit [ruach 'air in motion'] in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the Lord have spoken it, and performed it, saith the Lord.
The word ruach occurs ten times in these fourteen verses. Twice ruach is translated "spirit", interestingly enough in the first and the fourteenth verses, with reference to the Spirit of God, five times it is translated "breath", and three times as "wind". In the entire Old Testament, ruach is translated "spirit" 232 times, "breath" 28 times and "wind" 90 times. All the rest of the English words used to translate ruach are in the single digits. The literal meaning of ruach is doubtlessly "air in motion". So what does the word "spirit" really mean?
In antiquity, before the days of electronic monitoring equipment, or even an awareness of what the pulse meant, the surest way to tell whether or not a person was alive was by finding out if that person was breathing. If air was moving in and out of his body, he was alive. If air wasn't moving in and out of his body, he was dead. Because air moving in and out of the body was so closely associated with life, ruach took on the figurative meaning of "life as evidenced by the power to move".
When Genesis 1:2 says "the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters", its figurative meaning is that the life of God, as evidenced by His power to move, exerted itself in what He had created.
So why does Genesis 2:7 say God breathed into man's nostrils the breath [neshamah] of life instead of the spirit [ruach] of life? Well, to the best of my understanding, all breath is wind, or air in motion, but not all wind moves in and out of bodies. Some wind just blows about wherever it pleases.
So the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, got his respiration going, and man became a living soul.
More before long. Remember, we're on the trail of Wierwille's accuracy in his definition of salvation.
Love,
Steve
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