Well, LizzyBuzz took her trazedone, and I've got about a half-an-hour before she wants me to start reading. For years now, I've been reading to her as she fell asleep. We started in the early days of our marriage with the Narnia Chronicles, The Lord of the Rings, etc. A few nights ago, I finished Tarzan and the Lost Empire, and then started reading I Am A Barbarian, also by Edgar Rice Burroughs. We're on a "ERB goes classical" trip. I Am A Barbarian is an historical novel set in the days of Caligula. It's sort of like a blood and thunder version of Eddie Cantor's movie, Roman Scandals. We'll get back to zoe aionios after I finish reading. By the way, I do voices and sound effects when I read, and I taught LizzyBuzz how to put the back of her hand to her forehead and swoon when the heroines are about to face a fate worse than death!
NT Wright too? My, the list of those who you hold in low regard is long.....I am really starting to lose track??
Now, step back for a moment and think....consider why I might post that particular clip.....give it some time...it will sink in. Was my purpose to "prove" something? Argue incessantly over words? Or to offer some comfort?
Got it yet?
Geisha
BTW...you are seriously asking about one of the world's leading and most respected bible scholar's study habits?
LOL too funny.
Doctrinal
Or....one could look at ultimate salvation as getting to spend an eternity with God in the presence of His glory.....it is how I look at it anyway.....
NT Wright too? My, the list of those who you hold in low regard is long.....I am really starting to lose track??
Now, step back for a moment and think....consider why I might post that particular clip.....give it some time...it will sink in. Was my purpose to "prove" something? Argue incessantly over words? Or to offer some comfort?
Got it yet?
Geisha
BTW...you are seriously asking about one of the world's leading and most respected bible scholar's study habits?
LOL too funny.
No, I could not leave my remarks at this is a "doctrinal" portion of the Forum...
N. T. Wright is not the Messiah; he's a man, a theologian who has theological opinions that are not quite Scriptural here. I'm offended by his method and point out errors and you're upset. If people want to have answers, the wrong ones don't help.
While I appreciate your excitement over yet another "talking head" and I'm sure NT will be there when its all said and done, but of course he's "one of the world's leading and most respected bible scholars"....again. Anyone can question anyone's "study habits". The pabulum that he's serving up on the dead and where they are does not make him immune to criticism...ever.
"27 Then came to him certain of the Sadducees which deny that there is any resurrection..."
Resurrection? Where'd that idea come from? Let's review a little history.
Israel left Egypt and eventually conquered part of the land God promised to Abraham. Everything went fine for awhile, as far as things COULD go fine at that time. Then Israel wanted a king. So they got Saul, and then David. In II Samuel 7, David thought to build a house for the Lord, but the Lord said through Nathan, "No, Dave, I'm gonna build a house for you. You're gonna have a son, and he will be my son too. Your house and your kingdom will be established forever."
Fast forward a few hundred years. The kingom has been divided in two. Israel is gone. Judah is in captivity at Babylon. What ever happened to God's promises? What about the promise of a kingdom that will be established forever. And while we're talking about promises, how's God gonna fulfill His promises to people who are stone cold dead in the ground? That's the background for Ezekiel. Ezekiel wasn't in Israel. He was a captive, too, far from home in the land of the Chaldeans. That's why Israel was saying "Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts." (Ezekiel 37:11). The Lord replied,
"12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
"13 And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
"14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the Lord have spoken it, and performed it, saith the Lord."
We've already looked at a few aspects of these verses, now we're going to look at a few more:
Notice the phrase "O my people". The Lord repeats it several times. He doesn't just toss it out, though, the way Wierwille did. Those words are covenant language. Whenever God says "I will be your God, and you will be my people" the context is a promise God has made... a covenant... a testament.
If you want to see another covenant, turn back a page or so to Ezekiel 36,
"22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord God; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went."
God isn't going to do this because of Israel's works. This is a covenant of GRACE in the "Old Testament"!?!
"23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen [Gentiles!?!] shall know that I am the Lord, saith the Lord God, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
"24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
"25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you"
Baptism.
"26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
"27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
"28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God."
This is a restatement of the New Testment, a testament of grace, not of works, that God had promised by Jeremiah (chapter 31) a generation or so before Ezekiel's time. Do any of its features sound familiar?
When the Lord God uses the phrase "O my people" in Ezekiel 37:12&13, He is tying the promise of the New Testament, and the gathering of His people back to the land of their fathers, with His promise of... the RESURRECTION!
The word "resurrection" doesn't appear in the books we call the "Old Testament", but plenty of people were arguing about it by the time of Luke. The Sadducees denied that there is any resurrection.
I intended to cover Luke 20:33-36 tonight. I din't make it past Luke 20:27. I, at least, found the digression both entertaining and edifying!
never is roberterasmus but I guess you know more than Jesus Christ
I am a fool and I at least am prove of it
we been talking back and forth
at least I have trying
Are you Craig M or something?
what going on my friend
have I made you mad
because never aimed too
I am sorry if you believe I have wrong you
I wrote to you because I enjoy reading your intake
with love and a holy kiss Roy
Roy, I don't necessarily agree with everything you say, but you are a model for me of true humility. You also have permission to hold my feet to the fire if I ever get too highminded!
trow away your greek and Hebrew Dictionary for now there holding you down
listin to Geisha
NT Wright, Robert Boling, Ted Campbell, Arthur Voobus and Dennis Pardee are just fools
and I am too
that had something that more than words
with love and a holy kiss Roy
Roy, Roy, Roy,
You're sweet to suggest that all these things are holding me back, but frankly I've never been closer to my Savior. I'm very opinionated until someone can change that opinion with what "is written". Please feel free to interact with my posts and take me to task if I am wrongly handling a subject doctrinally.
Practically is a totally different matter. How one lives with the materials we have been given is more important.
It took me a long time to come to appreciate Roy's point of view. I didn't respond to him immediately. I just watched, and tried to figure out what he was saying (sort of like studying the Bible) until I could begin to recognize the patterns. And then I saw his never wavering humility, and I thought, "Ya know, maybe, just maybe, the Lord wants me to be more like Roy."
I used to be a Bible-thumping firebrand when it came to the Bible. I could go at trinitarians, proof-text to proof-text, for three hours solid, and I actually did so on several occassions.
I no longer study the Bible because I want to prove to other people that I've got all the answers. But studying the Bible is still important to me because, when I stand in front of Jesus Christ, I want to hear HIM say, "Well done, thou good and faithful servant." I want to share the things I'm learning with other people who can appreciate it. When I've tried to discuss this stuff with my pastors and some of my enthusiastically Christian relatives, their eyes just glaze over. What's with that?
I've been watching Bob, too. He seems to me like an agreeable soul who is willing to submit the thoughts and intents of his heart to the critique of the living Word.
So, I can't agree with your sentiment, "it is like being right back in TWI."
I've been watching you, too. You bring valuable things to the table, even the video of NT Wright. Your perspective on the Lord and His relation with the Way experience is different from mine. You got involved in a personal relation with Him AFTER you left the Way. I was involved in a personal relation with Him BEFORE I was exposed to TWI. But both perspectives are necessary if we're to have binocular vision. I am thankful for your involvement with this thread, and I think I'm getting to know you better as the unique soul you are.
This is the promise of resurrection set forth in Ezekiel 37,
"12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
"13 And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
"14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the Lord have spoken it, and performed it, saith the Lord."
Previously, Bob asked me if I applied my literal definition of "spirit" as air in motion or breath in all places (or something like that). I replied that I think the figurative meaning of "spirit" is conditioned by the context, and that the "Spirit of God" moving on the face of the waters as used in Genesis 1:2 indicates the life of God as evidenced by His power to move interacting with His creation.
Here in verse 14 we have God saying that He is going to put His spirit IN people (yes, Wierwille, spin in your grave, IN people, in the "Old Testament") as part of the promise of resurrection. To distinguish this use of "spirit", I'm going to call it the "Spirit of resurrection life". It is receiving this Spirit that imparts life to the dead souls of Israel. And I decided to capitalize the "S" in "Spirit. After all, it's only God's own.
This is the promise of resurrection set forth in Ezekiel 37,
"12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
"13 And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
"14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the Lord have spoken it, and performed it, saith the Lord."
Previously, Bob asked me if I applied my literal definition of "spirit" as air in motion or breath in all places (or something like that). I replied that I think the figurative meaning of "spirit" is conditioned by the context, and that the "Spirit of God" moving on the face of the waters as used in Genesis 1:2 indicates the life of God as evidenced by His power to move interacting with His creation.
Here in verse 14 we have God saying that He is going to put His spirit IN people (yes, Wierwille, spin in your grave, IN people, in the "Old Testament") as part of the promise of resurrection. To distinguish this use of "spirit", I'm going to call it the "Spirit of resurrection life". It is receiving this Spirit that imparts life to the dead souls of Israel. And I decided to capitalize the "S" in "Spirit. After all, it's only God's own.
More later...
Love,
Steve
Okay Steve, I am trying to figure out exactly what you mean when you say resurrection? Are you looking at these verses in light of Israel's resurrection of life as a community? Or as a build-up to the resurrection of Jesus? Or both?
Are you drawing a distinction between national resurrection and the individual resurrection promised in the NT? I know you made reference to chapter 36 with God's promise to restore Israel, but have we jumped to individuals? Just trying to follow along and you are losing me.
Okay Steve, I am trying to figure out exactly what you mean when you say resurrection? Are you looking at these verses in light of Israel's resurrection of life as a community? Or as a build-up to the resurrection of Jesus? Or both?
Are you drawing a distinction between national resurrection and the individual resurrection promised in the NT? I know you made reference to chapter 36 with God's promise to restore Israel, but have we jumped to individuals? Just trying to follow along and you are losing me.
Well, geisha, you've asked me some questions I don't have any pat answers for.
The New Testament is stated this way in Jeremiah 31,
"31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant [New Testament] with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
"32 Not according to the covenant I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt [Deuteronomy 5-28]; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband to them, saith the Lord:
"33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
"34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."
The gathering together as part of the New Testament is promised in Ezekiel 11:17-20,
"17 Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord God; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.
"18 And they shall come hither, and they shall take away all of the detestable things thereof and all the abominations thereof from thence.
"19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
"20 That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they will be my people, and I will be their God."
Remember, "they will be my people, and I will be their God" is covenant language, just as "and will be their God, and they shall be my people" of Jeremiah 31:33 is covenant language.
Ezekiel 36:22-28 puts the New Testament this way,
"22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord God; I do not this for your sakes [for the sake of your works], O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
"23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, saith the Lord God, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
"24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
"25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
"26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
"27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
"28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God."
Ezekiel 37:13&14 says,
"13 And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves.
"14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the Lord have spoken it, and performed it, saith the Lord."
It seems to me that the New Testament, and the resurrection and gathering together that are part of it, were promised to the house of Israel. I am inclined to think that this indicates the believing remnant of the house of Israel, but I don't presently have enough evidence to support or refute my opinion. I don't see any explicit promises of individual resurrection in the New Testament, but how could the house of Israel be resurrected if the individuals who comprise it are not individually resurrected?
Well, geisha, you've asked me some questions I don't have any pat answers for.
The New Testament is stated this way in Jeremiah 31,
"31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant [New Testament] with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
"32 Not according to the covenant I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt [Deuteronomy 5-28]; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband to them, saith the Lord:
"33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
"34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."
The gathering together as part of the New Testament is promised in Ezekiel 11:17-20,
"17 Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord God; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.
"18 And they shall come hither, and they shall take away all of the detestable things thereof and all the abominations thereof from thence.
"19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
"20 That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they will be my people, and I will be their God."
Remember, "they will be my people, and I will be their God" is covenant language, just as "and will be their God, and they shall be my people" of Jeremiah 31:33 is covenant language.
Ezekiel 36:22-28 puts the New Testament this way,
"22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord God; I do not this for your sakes [for the sake of your works], O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
"23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, saith the Lord God, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
"24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
"25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
"26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
"27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
"28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God."
Ezekiel 37:13&14 says,
"13 And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves.
"14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the Lord have spoken it, and performed it, saith the Lord."
It seems to me that the New Testament, and the resurrection and gathering together that are part of it, were promised to the house of Israel. I am inclined to think that this indicates the believing remnant of the house of Israel, but I don't presently have enough evidence to support or refute my opinion. I don't see any explicit promises of individual resurrection in the New Testament, but how could the house of Israel be resurrected if the individuals who comprise it are not individually resurrected?
Love,
Steve
Steve,
Thanks, but I was curious specifically how *you* were using resurrection, it would help me greatly to understand how you are interpreting these verse in Ezekiel 37. Also, help me in where you are going next with this as your platform, or jumping off point....it be might clear or foggy for explaining how you understand salvation....depending. I am trying to appreciate what it is you are learning.....but, you did say to hold your feet to the fire.
When God deals with Israel it is almost always as a nation....as one people instead of as individuals. Remember, God chose them as a nation of people? These verses do, I believe, give a build up to Jesus' resurrection, but, I also believe they are speaking specifically to Israel's restoration as a nation.
When I used the word New Testament, I used it as the division between the Old and New in the bible....not as a covenant. There may have been some confusion there. However, I do understand what you mean by an old and new covenant. :)
I am curious also, how you are using the term "gathering together" concerning chapter 11? Is that in reference to what we might call "The Right of Return" where people are returning, right now, to the nation of Israel.....which btw...became a nation in a day....and is blooming like a garden in the desert? Israel is one of the worlds leading suppliers of fruit!! Whenever I go to stay in GB....most of the fruit there is imported from Israel. Or do you reference some kind of "rapture" some believe is articulated in the NT. I have serious questions about the "rapture" and not sure what I believe.
Your terms are confusing to me....it is not you, but me....your time line as well....Ezekiel jumps around from present to future.....it is helpful to follow closely. I know your focus is spirit....and God breathing life into them.....but knowing who....helps clarify how. It also gives God the glory in understanding the incredible faithfulness on God's part!!
Ezekiel speaks to the blessings that follows necessary judgment...just look at our own individual walks to understand that....it also emphasizes God's sovereignty to bring judgment and restoration and a clear warning to Israel of judgment. It also stresses the need for Israel's national accountability before God. Agree?
So, help me understand how these verses speak to salvation, or life giving spirit? I am listening.
To Add: Something you might find really interesting Steve, is that in February 2010 Israel's Prime Minister...Benjamin Netanyahu, while speaking at a Nazi death camp in Poland, delivered a speech warning the world of new genocidal threats against the Jewish people and also declared that the prophecies of Ezekiel 37 have been fulfilled. Fascinating.
Thanks, but I was curious specifically how *you* were using resurrection, it would help me greatly to understand how you are interpreting these verse in Ezekiel 37. Also, help me in where you are going next with this as your platform, or jumping off point....it be might clear or foggy for explaining how you understand salvation....depending. I am trying to appreciate what it is you are learning.....but, you did say to hold your feet to the fire.
When God deals with Israel it is almost always as a nation....as one people instead of as individuals. Remember, God chose them as a nation of people? These verses do, I believe, give a build up to Jesus' resurrection, but, I also believe they are speaking specifically to Israel's restoration as a nation.
When I used the word New Testament, I used it as the division between the Old and New in the bible....not as a covenant. There may have been some confusion there. However, I do understand what you mean by an old and new covenant. :)
I am curious also, how you are using the term "gathering together" concerning chapter 11? Is that in reference to what we might call "The Right of Return" where people are returning, right now, to the nation of Israel.....which btw...became a nation in a day....and is blooming like a garden in the desert? Israel is one of the worlds leading suppliers of fruit!! Whenever I go to stay in GB....most of the fruit there is imported from Israel. Or do you reference some kind of "rapture" some believe is articulated in the NT. I have serious questions about the "rapture" and not sure what I believe.
Your terms are confusing to me....it is not you, but me....your time line as well....Ezekiel jumps around from present to future.....it is helpful to follow closely. I know your focus is spirit....and God breathing life into them.....but knowing who....helps clarify how. It also gives God the glory in understanding the incredible faithfulness on God's part!!
Ezekiel speaks to the blessings that follows necessary judgment...just look at our own individual walks to understand that....it also emphasizes God's sovereignty to bring judgment and restoration and a clear warning to Israel of judgment. It also stresses the need for Israel's national accountability before God. Agree?
So, help me understand how these verses speak to salvation, or life giving spirit? I am listening.
To Add: Something you might find really interesting Steve, is that in February 2010 Israel's Prime Minister...Benjamin Netanyahu, while speaking at a Nazi death camp in Poland, delivered a speech warning the world of new genocidal threats against the Jewish people and also declared that the prophecies of Ezekiel 37 have been fulfilled. Fascinating.
Thank you, Geisha! I DID ask you to hold my feet to the fire, and you are indeed doing so. You've raised a lot of questions, general and fundamental, as well as specific and not-so-fundamental. And not just in your latest post. I've been reviewing the thread. You were the first to respond, with a clip from Monty Python's Life of Brian :-)
I'm not inclined right now to jump forward to 19th century understandings of "resurrection." I want to understand as closely as possible what the word originally meant to Luke and Paul. That way, I will be more likely to read "out from" what they wrote, rather than to read foreign, modern significances "into" the word resurrection.
Remind me later on, and we'll discuss some of the other issues you've brought up.
I intended to cover Luke 20:33-36 tonight. I din't make it past Luke 20:27.
So... Back to Luke 20. Remember, we're on the trail of zoe aionios, "life of age". The Sadducees who didn't believe in the resurrection asked Jesus, about the woman who had been legitimately married to seven brothers,
"33 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife of them is she? for seven had her to wife.
"34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world [aion "age"] marry, and are given in marriage:
"35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world [aion "age"], and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
"36 Neither can they die anymore: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection."
People often ask, when looking at these verses, "what does it mean to neither marry nor be given in marriage?", or "what does it mean to be equal to the angels?" I ain't even gonna try to answer those questions, because I can't! I just don't know.
But I do see that Jesus views there to be two ages, "this age" and "that age", and that the resurrection (in which people receive the Spirit of resurrection life) is associated with "that age".
Remember Luke 18,
"29 And he [Jesus] said unto them [his followers], Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or parents, or brethren, or wife, or children, for the kingdom of God's sake,
"30 Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time [en toi kairoi tautoi "in this opportune moment"], and in the world [aion "age"] to come life everlasting [zoe aionios "life of age"].
I submit, as a working definition for zoe aionios, "the Spirit of resurrection life in the age to come".
The certain ruler asked Jesus what he had to do to inherit the Spirit of resurrection life in the age to come. Jesus said that those who made sacrifices for the kingdom's sake would receive the Spirit of resurrection life in the age to come.
Is the Spirit of resurrection life in the age to come everlasting? Indeed it is. Luke 20:36 says of those who receive it, "Neither can they die anymore."
And Luke 20:36 also says, "and [they] are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection."
People become the children of God by receiving the Spirit of resurrection life in the age to come.
Thank you, Geisha! I DID ask you to hold my feet to the fire, and you are indeed doing so. You've raised a lot of questions, general and fundamental, as well as specific and not-so-fundamental. And not just in your latest post. I've been reviewing the thread. You were the first to respond, with a clip from Monty Python's Life of Brian :-)
I'm not inclined right now to jump forward to 19th century understandings of "resurrection." I want to understand as closely as possible what the word originally meant to Luke and Paul. That way, I will be more likely to read "out from" what they wrote, rather than to read foreign, modern significances "into" the word resurrection.
Remind me later on, and we'll discuss some of the other issues you've brought up.
Love,
Steve
Steve,
WHO said anything about a 19th century understanding of resurrection??? Where did that come from? I simply asked you what YOU meant when you wrote the following:
"This is the promise of resurrection set forth in Ezekiel 37"
What do YOU mean by this? You used the word? Are you speaking specifically to the restoration.....or resurrection of Israel as a nation.....as Ezekiel is....or are you speaking of individuals raised for judgment? Or both?Is Ezekiel speaking to one and hinting at the other?
SIMPLE question.
You also wrote the following, which is ambiguous at best, unless we draw a distinction between who and what is being resurrected. Don't you think?
Here in verse 14 we have God saying that He is going to put His spirit IN people (yes, Wierwille, spin in your grave, IN people, in the "Old Testament") as part of the promise of resurrection. To distinguish this use of "spirit", I'm going to call it the "Spirit of resurrection life". It is receiving this Spirit that imparts life to the dead souls of Israel. And I decided to capitalize the "S" in "Spirit. After all, it's only God's own.
What people? All of the people of Israel? When VP spoke of spirit upon people in the OT he actually spoke to individuals.....and good Lord, don't make me say the man was right!! :) What "life" specifically is Ezekiel referencing in chapter 37 that God will resurrect? Because, if he is speaking to Israel's "life" as a community it is a elemental component to the resurrection of the dead. Part of the build up to the resurrection of Jesus. However, it could be he is speaking to a community being resurrected.....and hinting at the future resurrection of individuals.
I am trying to figure out what you are saying. Since you wrote it, I assume you understand what it is you are trying to convey. What "promise" of resurrection? It is definitely a resurrection analogy, but you have extrapolated specifics from it.
Further, when you say specifically...
The gathering together as part of the New Testament is promised in Ezekiel 11:17-20,
"17 Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord God; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.
"18 And they shall come hither, and they shall take away all of the detestable things thereof and all the abominations thereof from thence.
"19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
"20 That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they will be my people, and I will be their God."
I am actually very confused. What "gathering together" in the New Testament are you talking about?
The promises in Ezekiel 11 are speaking to God bringing the people of Israel back into the land of Israel from the places where they have been scattered. No? Which is why I tried to illustrate this with what we can look at today in Israel's immigration policy or "Right of return". The reunion of the diaspora. The dispersed people of Israel.
Isn't THAT what Ezekiel 11 is speaking to? I am simply trying to understand how you are seeing these verses. We can't read something into them that isn't there?
Are you drawing a distinction between national resurrection and the individual resurrection promised in the NT?
It took me awhile to figure out what this sentence means.
The modern concept of a nation-state, meaning a politico-ethnic unity, didn't even start budding until the middle ages, and didn't come into full blossom until the 19th century. There were ethnic unities in antiquity that we would roughly think of as "tribes." There were also political unities we would label "kingdoms," but the two concepts didn't necessarily overlap back then as they do in our word "nation".
And the idea of being an "individual" was different, too. People were more inclined to identify themselves as members of a family or of a patronage arrangement (I Corinthians 1:12) than they would be to identify themselves as existentially isolated "individuals" like some of us do today.
God's promises were to the house of Israel, and I think specifically to the believing remnant of that house. Individuals could receive the benefits of those promises to the extent that they were members of the believing remnant of Israel. The purpose of baptism, both with water AND with holy Spirit, was for an individual person to identify him or herself as a member of the believing remnant, and the function of administering baptism was to sign to the recipient that the believing remnant accepted him or her.
The return of an Israelitish government to the promised land in 1948 may be an immediate, partial fulfillment of some of the prophecies in Ezekiel, as was the return in the days of Ezra and Nehemiah, but I don't see how it could be a fulfillment of the promise of the resurrection without people rising from the dead (and I don't mean zombies )!
How can I avoid reading modern, foreign meanings into Ezekiel 37 if I start out with categories dictated by modern, foreign terms?
It took me awhile to figure out what this sentence means.
The modern concept of a nation-state, meaning a politico-ethnic unity, didn't even start budding until the middle ages, and didn't come into full blossom until the 19th century. There were ethnic unities in antiquity that we would roughly think of as "tribes." There were also political unities we would label "kingdoms," but the two concepts didn't necessarily overlap back then as they do in our word "nation".
And the idea of being an "individual" was different, too. People were more inclined to identify themselves as members of a family or of a patronage arrangement (I Corinthians 1:12) than they would be to identify themselves as existentially isolated "individuals" like some of us do today.
God's promises were to the house of Israel, and I think specifically to the believing remnant of that house. Individuals could receive the benefits of those promises to the extent that they were members of the believing remnant of Israel. The purpose of baptism, both with water AND with holy Spirit, was for an individual person to identify him or herself as a member of the believing remnant, and the function of administering baptism was to sign to the recipient that the believing remnant accepted him or her.
The return of an Israelitish government to the promised land in 1948 may be an immediate, partial fulfillment of some of the prophecies in Ezekiel, as was the return in the days of Ezra and Nehemiah, but I don't see how it could be a fulfillment of the promise of the resurrection without people rising from the dead (and I don't mean zombies )!
How can I avoid reading modern, foreign meanings into Ezekiel 37 if I start out with categories dictated by modern, foreign terms?
Love,
Steve
Um, God called Israel as a people, a nation, and gave them a land???
Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD, the people he chose for his inheritance
I have no earthly idea why you are giving me a history lesson? Not that I don't love history mind you :) I spent 6 long years earning two history degrees....one a MA in 19th Century history....But, I still don't know what you meant by the term promise of resurrection, and any good study bible will do to understand Ezekiel 37 and the promise to resurrect Israel as a nation(pardon the term I guess??) Although, you find it in your bible and despite the fact that the idea of nation has changed.....it is still an appropriate use of the word!
If you don't understand the concept of resurrecting a scattered people back into a nation....to be one people after having roamed the earth, booted and persecuted....then I guess you don't follow what I am saying.
Jacob ... had a dream in which he saw a stairway resting on the earth, with its top reaching to heaven, and the angels of God were ascending and descending on it. There above it stood the Lord, and he said: "I am the Lord, the God of your father Abraham and the God of Isaac. I will give you and your descendants the land on which you are lying. Your descendants will be like the dust of the earth, and you will spread out to the west and to the east, to the north and to the south. All peoples on earth will be blessed through you and your offspring. I am with you and will watch over you wherever you go, and I will bring you back to this land. I will not leave you until I have done what I have promised you."
Leviticus 26:33-38 "And I will scatter you among the heathen, and will draw out a sword after you: and your land shall be desolate, and your cities waste. Then shall the land enjoy her sabbaths, as long as it lieth desolate, and ye be in your enemies' land; even then shall the land rest, and enjoy her sabbaths. As long as it lieth desolate it shall rest; because it did not rest in your sabbaths, when ye dwelt upon it. And upon them that are left alive of you I will send a faintness into their hearts in the lands of their enemies; and the sound of a shaken leaf shall chase them; and they shall flee, as fleeing from a sword; and they shall fall when none pursueth. And they shall fall one upon another, as it were before a sword, when none pursueth: and ye shall have no power to stand before your enemies. And ye shall perish among the heathen, and the land of your enemies shall eat you up."
Deuteronomy 28:64-67 "And the LORD shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone. And among these nations shalt thou find no ease, neither shall the sole of thy foot have rest:
I am with you and will save you,' declares the Lord. `Though I completely destroy all the nations among which I scatter you, I will not completely destroy you. I will discipline you but only with justice; I will not let you go entirely unpunished.'
"... the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee" (Deuteronomy 30:3).
"... Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel" (Ezekiel 17:11).
How can you discount the whole idea of Ezekiel 36, 37 being a prophecy of resurrecting Israel as a nation, because the term has changed from then to now?
It would still be a particular chosen people called back into a land for community...resurrecting that community. Which btw is why I used the word community. Israel is populated with people, very much alive, and in a community that is still being resurrected...no? It isn't over yet....
That is how you can read other meaning into those verses, by discounting the whole concept. Not to put too fine a point on it, but.....Moses didn't even enter the promised land....MOSES!
Only two people from the Exodus entered.(I don't have my bible here) Anything anyone did receive was by faith, but Israel was basically dealt with in the OT as a, pardon the term, nation.
It is okay Steve, I can see we are speaking at cross purposes. :)
How can you discount the whole idea of Ezekiel 36, 37 being a prophecy of resurrecting Israel as a nation, because the term has changed from then to now?
It is okay Steve, I can see we are speaking at cross purposes. :)
Well, that's what open and honest discussion is for... for us to recognize when we're talking at cross purposes, and for us to figure out how to tune into a common wavelength. And you do it so well!
As for the question, "Are you drawing a distinction between national Israel and the individual resurrection promised in the NT?"
I understand now how you are using the phrase, "national Israel".
I was very cautious about it, because the phrase "national Israel" took on overtones among dispensationalists during the 19th century, when Zionism was on the rise, overtones which can still be heard on the radio/TV and read on the internet to this day.
What do you mean when you use the phrase "individual resurrection promised in the NT"?
Love,
Steve
And by the way, I don't think I've ever discounted the whole idea of Ezekiel 36, 37 being a prophecy of resurrecting Israel as a nation, except that I believe it applies to the believing remnant, and not necessarily to every descendent of the man Israel based on genetics.
I am becoming convinced that prophesies about a glowing future for Israel will be fulfilled in the everlasting, eschatological kingdom that all the elect (both Jews and Gentiles) in Christ from all ages will inherit. Along the lines of there being both a corporate and an individual aspect to resurrection, I think it was Geerhardus Vos who pointed out that the Greek word translated regeneration is used both of the eschatological new creation and of the individual new creature (see Matthew 19:28, Titus 3:5).
The eschatological new creation, however, is not completely future. Christ inaugurated it at his first advent. There is a new corporate man in Christ. There are new individual creatures in Christ.
In Vosian terms the age to come has “intruded” into the present. Christ is now ascended on high, and spiritually, his elect have been seated with him. The already of the age to come is spiritual. The not yet will arrive at the redemption of the elect’s bodies and the physical establishment on Earth of the eschatological kingdom. It is helpful to view the Bible as having a storyline of creation, fall, redemption, consummation.
*****
Geerhardus Vos is a noted figure in two-age eschatology. I was going to post a link to an primer on two-age eschatology that includes Vos’s noted two-age diagram. The site (www.two-age.org) is defunct, however, and the Internet Archive WayBackMachine, which retrieved an archive of the web page earlier today, will not presently retrieve it.
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geisha779
Hebrews 4:12 .. . . to whom is it written? It was written to the Jews who had intellectually agreed to the gospel, the facts about Jesus, the authority and power of the 1st century church, but were no
geisha779
Hey Gen-2 I am curious what people think strong meat really is? :) Perhaps it is. . . to the measure of the stature of the fullness in Christ. . . . and not some super-duper special x-ray ability,
cman
Excuse me there Bob, but your post has a narrow view. I will not use the word you used to describe a perspective. Other words come to mind. But, you are, as all, entitled to your own works.
Steve Lortz
Well, LizzyBuzz took her trazedone, and I've got about a half-an-hour before she wants me to start reading. For years now, I've been reading to her as she fell asleep. We started in the early days of our marriage with the Narnia Chronicles, The Lord of the Rings, etc. A few nights ago, I finished Tarzan and the Lost Empire, and then started reading I Am A Barbarian, also by Edgar Rice Burroughs. We're on a "ERB goes classical" trip. I Am A Barbarian is an historical novel set in the days of Caligula. It's sort of like a blood and thunder version of Eddie Cantor's movie, Roman Scandals. We'll get back to zoe aionios after I finish reading. By the way, I do voices and sound effects when I read, and I taught LizzyBuzz how to put the back of her hand to her forehead and swoon when the heroines are about to face a fate worse than death!
Love,
Steve
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roberterasmus
Doctrinal
That one covers it too.
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roberterasmus
No, I could not leave my remarks at this is a "doctrinal" portion of the Forum...
N. T. Wright is not the Messiah; he's a man, a theologian who has theological opinions that are not quite Scriptural here. I'm offended by his method and point out errors and you're upset. If people want to have answers, the wrong ones don't help.
While I appreciate your excitement over yet another "talking head" and I'm sure NT will be there when its all said and done, but of course he's "one of the world's leading and most respected bible scholars"....again. Anyone can question anyone's "study habits". The pabulum that he's serving up on the dead and where they are does not make him immune to criticism...ever.
RE
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year2027
God first
thanks Robert
never is roberterasmus but I guess you know more than Jesus Christ
I am a fool and I at least am prove of it
we been talking back and forth
at least I have trying
Are you Craig M or something?
what going on my friend
have I made you mad
because never aimed too
I am sorry if you believe I have wrong you
I wrote to you because I enjoy reading your intake
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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Steve Lortz
Luke, chapter 20,
"27 Then came to him certain of the Sadducees which deny that there is any resurrection..."
Resurrection? Where'd that idea come from? Let's review a little history.
Israel left Egypt and eventually conquered part of the land God promised to Abraham. Everything went fine for awhile, as far as things COULD go fine at that time. Then Israel wanted a king. So they got Saul, and then David. In II Samuel 7, David thought to build a house for the Lord, but the Lord said through Nathan, "No, Dave, I'm gonna build a house for you. You're gonna have a son, and he will be my son too. Your house and your kingdom will be established forever."
Fast forward a few hundred years. The kingom has been divided in two. Israel is gone. Judah is in captivity at Babylon. What ever happened to God's promises? What about the promise of a kingdom that will be established forever. And while we're talking about promises, how's God gonna fulfill His promises to people who are stone cold dead in the ground? That's the background for Ezekiel. Ezekiel wasn't in Israel. He was a captive, too, far from home in the land of the Chaldeans. That's why Israel was saying "Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts." (Ezekiel 37:11). The Lord replied,
"12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
"13 And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
"14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the Lord have spoken it, and performed it, saith the Lord."
We've already looked at a few aspects of these verses, now we're going to look at a few more:
Notice the phrase "O my people". The Lord repeats it several times. He doesn't just toss it out, though, the way Wierwille did. Those words are covenant language. Whenever God says "I will be your God, and you will be my people" the context is a promise God has made... a covenant... a testament.
If you want to see another covenant, turn back a page or so to Ezekiel 36,
"22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord God; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went."
God isn't going to do this because of Israel's works. This is a covenant of GRACE in the "Old Testament"!?!
"23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen [Gentiles!?!] shall know that I am the Lord, saith the Lord God, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
"24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
"25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you"
Baptism.
"26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
"27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
"28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God."
This is a restatement of the New Testment, a testament of grace, not of works, that God had promised by Jeremiah (chapter 31) a generation or so before Ezekiel's time. Do any of its features sound familiar?
When the Lord God uses the phrase "O my people" in Ezekiel 37:12&13, He is tying the promise of the New Testament, and the gathering of His people back to the land of their fathers, with His promise of... the RESURRECTION!
The word "resurrection" doesn't appear in the books we call the "Old Testament", but plenty of people were arguing about it by the time of Luke. The Sadducees denied that there is any resurrection.
I intended to cover Luke 20:33-36 tonight. I din't make it past Luke 20:27. I, at least, found the digression both entertaining and edifying!
Love,
Steve
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Steve Lortz
Roy, I don't necessarily agree with everything you say, but you are a model for me of true humility. You also have permission to hold my feet to the fire if I ever get too highminded!
with love and a holy kiss Steve
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year2027
God first
thanks Steve
you are a token of love my friend
you have more love than I could ever measure
my friend roberterasmus and I enjoying what he writes
but I enjoy you too
I enjoy what you write
and you give your love
I love you my friend
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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roberterasmus
Roy, Roy, Roy,
You're sweet to suggest that all these things are holding me back, but frankly I've never been closer to my Savior. I'm very opinionated until someone can change that opinion with what "is written". Please feel free to interact with my posts and take me to task if I am wrongly handling a subject doctrinally.
Practically is a totally different matter. How one lives with the materials we have been given is more important.
Hugs and kisses (both holy),
Bob
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cman
Why would anyone want to change your opinion?
Seems you are the one trying to change minds.
I suppose I could post some about your content.
Why would anyone want to do that with your present state?
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geisha779
Amen...it is like being right back in TWI
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year2027
God frist
thanks Bob
I love you
thanks my friend
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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Steve Lortz
It took me a long time to come to appreciate Roy's point of view. I didn't respond to him immediately. I just watched, and tried to figure out what he was saying (sort of like studying the Bible) until I could begin to recognize the patterns. And then I saw his never wavering humility, and I thought, "Ya know, maybe, just maybe, the Lord wants me to be more like Roy."
I used to be a Bible-thumping firebrand when it came to the Bible. I could go at trinitarians, proof-text to proof-text, for three hours solid, and I actually did so on several occassions.
I no longer study the Bible because I want to prove to other people that I've got all the answers. But studying the Bible is still important to me because, when I stand in front of Jesus Christ, I want to hear HIM say, "Well done, thou good and faithful servant." I want to share the things I'm learning with other people who can appreciate it. When I've tried to discuss this stuff with my pastors and some of my enthusiastically Christian relatives, their eyes just glaze over. What's with that?
I've been watching Bob, too. He seems to me like an agreeable soul who is willing to submit the thoughts and intents of his heart to the critique of the living Word.
So, I can't agree with your sentiment, "it is like being right back in TWI."
I've been watching you, too. You bring valuable things to the table, even the video of NT Wright. Your perspective on the Lord and His relation with the Way experience is different from mine. You got involved in a personal relation with Him AFTER you left the Way. I was involved in a personal relation with Him BEFORE I was exposed to TWI. But both perspectives are necessary if we're to have binocular vision. I am thankful for your involvement with this thread, and I think I'm getting to know you better as the unique soul you are.
As Roy would say, with love and a holy kiss Steve
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Steve Lortz
This is the promise of resurrection set forth in Ezekiel 37,
"12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
"13 And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
"14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the Lord have spoken it, and performed it, saith the Lord."
Previously, Bob asked me if I applied my literal definition of "spirit" as air in motion or breath in all places (or something like that). I replied that I think the figurative meaning of "spirit" is conditioned by the context, and that the "Spirit of God" moving on the face of the waters as used in Genesis 1:2 indicates the life of God as evidenced by His power to move interacting with His creation.
Here in verse 14 we have God saying that He is going to put His spirit IN people (yes, Wierwille, spin in your grave, IN people, in the "Old Testament") as part of the promise of resurrection. To distinguish this use of "spirit", I'm going to call it the "Spirit of resurrection life". It is receiving this Spirit that imparts life to the dead souls of Israel. And I decided to capitalize the "S" in "Spirit. After all, it's only God's own.
More later...
Love,
Steve
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year2027
God first
thanks Steve
thank you my friend
there not words that you thanks enough
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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geisha779
Okay Steve, I am trying to figure out exactly what you mean when you say resurrection? Are you looking at these verses in light of Israel's resurrection of life as a community? Or as a build-up to the resurrection of Jesus? Or both?
Are you drawing a distinction between national resurrection and the individual resurrection promised in the NT? I know you made reference to chapter 36 with God's promise to restore Israel, but have we jumped to individuals? Just trying to follow along and you are losing me.
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Steve Lortz
Well, geisha, you've asked me some questions I don't have any pat answers for.
The New Testament is stated this way in Jeremiah 31,
"31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant [New Testament] with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
"32 Not according to the covenant I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt [Deuteronomy 5-28]; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband to them, saith the Lord:
"33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
"34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."
The gathering together as part of the New Testament is promised in Ezekiel 11:17-20,
"17 Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord God; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.
"18 And they shall come hither, and they shall take away all of the detestable things thereof and all the abominations thereof from thence.
"19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
"20 That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they will be my people, and I will be their God."
Remember, "they will be my people, and I will be their God" is covenant language, just as "and will be their God, and they shall be my people" of Jeremiah 31:33 is covenant language.
Ezekiel 36:22-28 puts the New Testament this way,
"22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord God; I do not this for your sakes [for the sake of your works], O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
"23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, saith the Lord God, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
"24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
"25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
"26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
"27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
"28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God."
Ezekiel 37:13&14 says,
"13 And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves.
"14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the Lord have spoken it, and performed it, saith the Lord."
It seems to me that the New Testament, and the resurrection and gathering together that are part of it, were promised to the house of Israel. I am inclined to think that this indicates the believing remnant of the house of Israel, but I don't presently have enough evidence to support or refute my opinion. I don't see any explicit promises of individual resurrection in the New Testament, but how could the house of Israel be resurrected if the individuals who comprise it are not individually resurrected?
Love,
Steve
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geisha779
Steve,
Thanks, but I was curious specifically how *you* were using resurrection, it would help me greatly to understand how you are interpreting these verse in Ezekiel 37. Also, help me in where you are going next with this as your platform, or jumping off point....it be might clear or foggy for explaining how you understand salvation....depending. I am trying to appreciate what it is you are learning.....but, you did say to hold your feet to the fire.
When God deals with Israel it is almost always as a nation....as one people instead of as individuals. Remember, God chose them as a nation of people? These verses do, I believe, give a build up to Jesus' resurrection, but, I also believe they are speaking specifically to Israel's restoration as a nation.
When I used the word New Testament, I used it as the division between the Old and New in the bible....not as a covenant. There may have been some confusion there. However, I do understand what you mean by an old and new covenant. :)
I am curious also, how you are using the term "gathering together" concerning chapter 11? Is that in reference to what we might call "The Right of Return" where people are returning, right now, to the nation of Israel.....which btw...became a nation in a day....and is blooming like a garden in the desert? Israel is one of the worlds leading suppliers of fruit!! Whenever I go to stay in GB....most of the fruit there is imported from Israel. Or do you reference some kind of "rapture" some believe is articulated in the NT. I have serious questions about the "rapture" and not sure what I believe.
Your terms are confusing to me....it is not you, but me....your time line as well....Ezekiel jumps around from present to future.....it is helpful to follow closely. I know your focus is spirit....and God breathing life into them.....but knowing who....helps clarify how. It also gives God the glory in understanding the incredible faithfulness on God's part!!
Ezekiel speaks to the blessings that follows necessary judgment...just look at our own individual walks to understand that....it also emphasizes God's sovereignty to bring judgment and restoration and a clear warning to Israel of judgment. It also stresses the need for Israel's national accountability before God. Agree?
So, help me understand how these verses speak to salvation, or life giving spirit? I am listening.
To Add: Something you might find really interesting Steve, is that in February 2010 Israel's Prime Minister...Benjamin Netanyahu, while speaking at a Nazi death camp in Poland, delivered a speech warning the world of new genocidal threats against the Jewish people and also declared that the prophecies of Ezekiel 37 have been fulfilled. Fascinating.
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Steve Lortz
Thank you, Geisha! I DID ask you to hold my feet to the fire, and you are indeed doing so. You've raised a lot of questions, general and fundamental, as well as specific and not-so-fundamental. And not just in your latest post. I've been reviewing the thread. You were the first to respond, with a clip from Monty Python's Life of Brian :-)
I'm not inclined right now to jump forward to 19th century understandings of "resurrection." I want to understand as closely as possible what the word originally meant to Luke and Paul. That way, I will be more likely to read "out from" what they wrote, rather than to read foreign, modern significances "into" the word resurrection.
Remind me later on, and we'll discuss some of the other issues you've brought up.
Love,
Steve
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Steve Lortz
So... Back to Luke 20. Remember, we're on the trail of zoe aionios, "life of age". The Sadducees who didn't believe in the resurrection asked Jesus, about the woman who had been legitimately married to seven brothers,
"33 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife of them is she? for seven had her to wife.
"34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world [aion "age"] marry, and are given in marriage:
"35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world [aion "age"], and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
"36 Neither can they die anymore: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection."
People often ask, when looking at these verses, "what does it mean to neither marry nor be given in marriage?", or "what does it mean to be equal to the angels?" I ain't even gonna try to answer those questions, because I can't! I just don't know.
But I do see that Jesus views there to be two ages, "this age" and "that age", and that the resurrection (in which people receive the Spirit of resurrection life) is associated with "that age".
Remember Luke 18,
"29 And he [Jesus] said unto them [his followers], Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or parents, or brethren, or wife, or children, for the kingdom of God's sake,
"30 Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time [en toi kairoi tautoi "in this opportune moment"], and in the world [aion "age"] to come life everlasting [zoe aionios "life of age"].
I submit, as a working definition for zoe aionios, "the Spirit of resurrection life in the age to come".
The certain ruler asked Jesus what he had to do to inherit the Spirit of resurrection life in the age to come. Jesus said that those who made sacrifices for the kingdom's sake would receive the Spirit of resurrection life in the age to come.
Is the Spirit of resurrection life in the age to come everlasting? Indeed it is. Luke 20:36 says of those who receive it, "Neither can they die anymore."
And Luke 20:36 also says, "and [they] are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection."
People become the children of God by receiving the Spirit of resurrection life in the age to come.
There's your "spiritual seed", Roy!
More later...
Love,
Steve
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geisha779
Steve,
WHO said anything about a 19th century understanding of resurrection??? Where did that come from? I simply asked you what YOU meant when you wrote the following:
"This is the promise of resurrection set forth in Ezekiel 37"
What do YOU mean by this? You used the word? Are you speaking specifically to the restoration.....or resurrection of Israel as a nation.....as Ezekiel is....or are you speaking of individuals raised for judgment? Or both? Is Ezekiel speaking to one and hinting at the other?
SIMPLE question.
You also wrote the following, which is ambiguous at best, unless we draw a distinction between who and what is being resurrected. Don't you think?
Here in verse 14 we have God saying that He is going to put His spirit IN people (yes, Wierwille, spin in your grave, IN people, in the "Old Testament") as part of the promise of resurrection. To distinguish this use of "spirit", I'm going to call it the "Spirit of resurrection life". It is receiving this Spirit that imparts life to the dead souls of Israel. And I decided to capitalize the "S" in "Spirit. After all, it's only God's own.
What people? All of the people of Israel? When VP spoke of spirit upon people in the OT he actually spoke to individuals.....and good Lord, don't make me say the man was right!! :) What "life" specifically is Ezekiel referencing in chapter 37 that God will resurrect? Because, if he is speaking to Israel's "life" as a community it is a elemental component to the resurrection of the dead. Part of the build up to the resurrection of Jesus. However, it could be he is speaking to a community being resurrected.....and hinting at the future resurrection of individuals.
I am trying to figure out what you are saying. Since you wrote it, I assume you understand what it is you are trying to convey. What "promise" of resurrection? It is definitely a resurrection analogy, but you have extrapolated specifics from it.
Further, when you say specifically...
The gathering together as part of the New Testament is promised in Ezekiel 11:17-20,
"17 Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord God; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.
"18 And they shall come hither, and they shall take away all of the detestable things thereof and all the abominations thereof from thence.
"19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
"20 That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they will be my people, and I will be their God."
I am actually very confused. What "gathering together" in the New Testament are you talking about?
The promises in Ezekiel 11 are speaking to God bringing the people of Israel back into the land of Israel from the places where they have been scattered. No? Which is why I tried to illustrate this with what we can look at today in Israel's immigration policy or "Right of return". The reunion of the diaspora. The dispersed people of Israel.
Isn't THAT what Ezekiel 11 is speaking to? I am simply trying to understand how you are seeing these verses. We can't read something into them that isn't there?
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Steve Lortz
It took me awhile to figure out what this sentence means.
The modern concept of a nation-state, meaning a politico-ethnic unity, didn't even start budding until the middle ages, and didn't come into full blossom until the 19th century. There were ethnic unities in antiquity that we would roughly think of as "tribes." There were also political unities we would label "kingdoms," but the two concepts didn't necessarily overlap back then as they do in our word "nation".
And the idea of being an "individual" was different, too. People were more inclined to identify themselves as members of a family or of a patronage arrangement (I Corinthians 1:12) than they would be to identify themselves as existentially isolated "individuals" like some of us do today.
God's promises were to the house of Israel, and I think specifically to the believing remnant of that house. Individuals could receive the benefits of those promises to the extent that they were members of the believing remnant of Israel. The purpose of baptism, both with water AND with holy Spirit, was for an individual person to identify him or herself as a member of the believing remnant, and the function of administering baptism was to sign to the recipient that the believing remnant accepted him or her.
The return of an Israelitish government to the promised land in 1948 may be an immediate, partial fulfillment of some of the prophecies in Ezekiel, as was the return in the days of Ezra and Nehemiah, but I don't see how it could be a fulfillment of the promise of the resurrection without people rising from the dead (and I don't mean zombies
)!
How can I avoid reading modern, foreign meanings into Ezekiel 37 if I start out with categories dictated by modern, foreign terms?
Love,
Steve
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geisha779
Um, God called Israel as a people, a nation, and gave them a land???
Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD, the people he chose for his inheritance
I have no earthly idea why you are giving me a history lesson? Not that I don't love history mind you :) I spent 6 long years earning two history degrees....one a MA in 19th Century history....But, I still don't know what you meant by the term promise of resurrection, and any good study bible will do to understand Ezekiel 37 and the promise to resurrect Israel as a nation(pardon the term I guess??) Although, you find it in your bible and despite the fact that the idea of nation has changed.....it is still an appropriate use of the word!
If you don't understand the concept of resurrecting a scattered people back into a nation....to be one people after having roamed the earth, booted and persecuted....then I guess you don't follow what I am saying.
Jacob ... had a dream in which he saw a stairway resting on the earth, with its top reaching to heaven, and the angels of God were ascending and descending on it. There above it stood the Lord, and he said: "I am the Lord, the God of your father Abraham and the God of Isaac. I will give you and your descendants the land on which you are lying. Your descendants will be like the dust of the earth, and you will spread out to the west and to the east, to the north and to the south. All peoples on earth will be blessed through you and your offspring. I am with you and will watch over you wherever you go, and I will bring you back to this land. I will not leave you until I have done what I have promised you."
Leviticus 26:33-38 "And I will scatter you among the heathen, and will draw out a sword after you: and your land shall be desolate, and your cities waste. Then shall the land enjoy her sabbaths, as long as it lieth desolate, and ye be in your enemies' land; even then shall the land rest, and enjoy her sabbaths. As long as it lieth desolate it shall rest; because it did not rest in your sabbaths, when ye dwelt upon it. And upon them that are left alive of you I will send a faintness into their hearts in the lands of their enemies; and the sound of a shaken leaf shall chase them; and they shall flee, as fleeing from a sword; and they shall fall when none pursueth. And they shall fall one upon another, as it were before a sword, when none pursueth: and ye shall have no power to stand before your enemies. And ye shall perish among the heathen, and the land of your enemies shall eat you up."
Deuteronomy 28:64-67 "And the LORD shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone. And among these nations shalt thou find no ease, neither shall the sole of thy foot have rest:
I am with you and will save you,' declares the Lord. `Though I completely destroy all the nations among which I scatter you, I will not completely destroy you. I will discipline you but only with justice; I will not let you go entirely unpunished.'
"... the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee" (Deuteronomy 30:3).
"... Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel" (Ezekiel 17:11).
How can you discount the whole idea of Ezekiel 36, 37 being a prophecy of resurrecting Israel as a nation, because the term has changed from then to now?
It would still be a particular chosen people called back into a land for community...resurrecting that community. Which btw is why I used the word community. Israel is populated with people, very much alive, and in a community that is still being resurrected...no? It isn't over yet....
That is how you can read other meaning into those verses, by discounting the whole concept. Not to put too fine a point on it, but.....Moses didn't even enter the promised land....MOSES!
Only two people from the Exodus entered.(I don't have my bible here) Anything anyone did receive was by faith, but Israel was basically dealt with in the OT as a, pardon the term, nation.
It is okay Steve, I can see we are speaking at cross purposes. :)
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Steve Lortz
Well, that's what open and honest discussion is for... for us to recognize when we're talking at cross purposes, and for us to figure out how to tune into a common wavelength. And you do it so well!
As for the question, "Are you drawing a distinction between national Israel and the individual resurrection promised in the NT?"
I understand now how you are using the phrase, "national Israel".
I was very cautious about it, because the phrase "national Israel" took on overtones among dispensationalists during the 19th century, when Zionism was on the rise, overtones which can still be heard on the radio/TV and read on the internet to this day.
What do you mean when you use the phrase "individual resurrection promised in the NT"?
Love,
Steve
And by the way, I don't think I've ever discounted the whole idea of Ezekiel 36, 37 being a prophecy of resurrecting Israel as a nation, except that I believe it applies to the believing remnant, and not necessarily to every descendent of the man Israel based on genetics.
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Cynic
I am becoming convinced that prophesies about a glowing future for Israel will be fulfilled in the everlasting, eschatological kingdom that all the elect (both Jews and Gentiles) in Christ from all ages will inherit. Along the lines of there being both a corporate and an individual aspect to resurrection, I think it was Geerhardus Vos who pointed out that the Greek word translated regeneration is used both of the eschatological new creation and of the individual new creature (see Matthew 19:28, Titus 3:5).
The eschatological new creation, however, is not completely future. Christ inaugurated it at his first advent. There is a new corporate man in Christ. There are new individual creatures in Christ.
In Vosian terms the age to come has “intruded” into the present. Christ is now ascended on high, and spiritually, his elect have been seated with him. The already of the age to come is spiritual. The not yet will arrive at the redemption of the elect’s bodies and the physical establishment on Earth of the eschatological kingdom. It is helpful to view the Bible as having a storyline of creation, fall, redemption, consummation.
*****
Geerhardus Vos is a noted figure in two-age eschatology. I was going to post a link to an primer on two-age eschatology that includes Vos’s noted two-age diagram. The site (www.two-age.org) is defunct, however, and the Internet Archive WayBackMachine, which retrieved an archive of the web page earlier today, will not presently retrieve it.
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