What were the three heavens? I'd like to hear more about that.
I feel really stupid, but I have a problem answering that question. It seems to me that the answer depends. I've got a couple of answers.
1. When I said three heavens was a Jewish notion, I was looking at Easton's Bible Dictionary under "heaven." When he said three heavens was a Jewish notion, he was referring to the firmament where the fowls fly as the first, the starry sky as two, and the spiritual realm as three - although they didn't number them. I just opened 5 or 6 websites on the subject. They all agreed with Easton. After looking at many of the verses Easton and these websites referred to, I agree that the Jews definitely had 1 of these three notions in mind when they said heaven.
However, I doubt that the Jews were taught in Temple that there were three heavens, & they were numbered 1, 2, & 3, such that when Paul referred to the third heaven, the Jews would immediately recognize, "Oh, the third heaven - Paul is referring to the spiritual realm." I don't see any indication that the Jews numbered the heavens.
2. So, there seems to be the possibility that when Paul referred to the third heaven, he was referring to the new heaven and earth to come after this present heaven and earth pass away. Then Gen.1:1 would be the first, we are in the second, & the coming would be the third. This makes sense to me.
I would say that both perspectives of the heavens may very well be accurate. Wierwilles comment about what the "ancient" Jews believed umm, I don't see it.
No doubt ideas have varied considerably over the pre-Christian millennia.
What did Stone Age Man think? (Never mind the thoughts of Greek philosophers over an extended period.)
What did Egyptians of relevant times think? What did Assyrians think?
Are there any common "ancient" concepts? "Locations" for heaven?
Or is it simply a recognition of there being something "much bigger" than us and our planet?
Is heaven a manmade concept?
Is, indeed, God, a manmade concept?
...Is it perhaps time I went to bed (it's 2AM)? Since my bedroom's way above street level - will I be in heaven?
"The ancients... who exactly?"
First, Luke, the author of Acts 2:2, a physician, an educated Greco-Roman. Second, "Theopholus," probably the Roman magistrate assigned to review Paul's case for Nero, again an educated Greco-Roman. Can't get much more exact than that.
"No doubt ideas have varied considerably over the pre-Christian millennia."
Acts 2:2 wasn't written in the pre-Christian millennia. It was written in the mid-first-century, probably in the 60s.
"What did Stone Age Man think?"
Apart from Otzi the Ice Man, how many stone age men do we know? If we could know what Otzi thought, how would we know his thoughts would be representative of "Sone Age Man?"
"(Never mind the thoughts of Greek philosophers over an extended period.)"
Fortunately, we DO know what Greek philosophers thought over an extended period, because many of them wrote, and some of their works have survived. If you doubt me, I suggest you get hold of a copy of The Origins of Stoic Cosmology by David E. Hahm (1977). It goes into EXCRUCIATING detail regarding what the Stoics thought, and why. Stoicism became and remained the dominant philosophy for every educated Greco-Roman from about 300 BC to AD 200. It didn't lose its place until Pax Romana collapsed in the third-century. The mid-first-century was the hay day of Stoicism. Seneca, Rome's greatest intellectual at the time, contemporaneous with Paul and Luke, was a great promoter of Stoicism, and he was the tutor for young Nero. Yes... we need to mind the thoughts of specific philosophies that shaped the intellectual world at the time Luke was writing.
"What did Egyptians at relevant times think? What did Assyrians think?"
As far as Acts 2:2 is concerned, that the Egyptians and the Assyrians thought doesn't matter one whit.
"Are there any common 'ancient' concepts?"
Yes, at specific times and places there were.
"'Locations' for heaven?"
Again, yes. Go out on a clear night away from modern light pollution and look up. You can see heaven with your eyes.
"Or is it simply a recognition of something 'much bigger' than us and our planet?"
No! To the Stoics, the Void was much bigger than our planet, OR the heavens, OR even the Cosmos itself.
"Is heaven a manmade concept?"
Yes, as are ALL concepts.
"Is, indeed, God, a manmade concept?"
God, Whom I believe manifests His works objectively in Creation, has given you the freedom to answer that question for yourself, as well as to ask it.
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Psalm 14:2 New Living Translation (NLT) 2 The Lord looks down from heaven on the entire human race; he looks to see if anyone is truly wise, if anyone seeks God. From this verse
Jbarrax
Yeah, I know what VP taught about them. I'm assuming Tom's take is slightly different.
What sayest thou Heller? :-)
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Tom
I feel really stupid, but I have a problem answering that question. It seems to me that the answer depends. I've got a couple of answers.
1. When I said three heavens was a Jewish notion, I was looking at Easton's Bible Dictionary under "heaven." When he said three heavens was a Jewish notion, he was referring to the firmament where the fowls fly as the first, the starry sky as two, and the spiritual realm as three - although they didn't number them. I just opened 5 or 6 websites on the subject. They all agreed with Easton. After looking at many of the verses Easton and these websites referred to, I agree that the Jews definitely had 1 of these three notions in mind when they said heaven.
However, I doubt that the Jews were taught in Temple that there were three heavens, & they were numbered 1, 2, & 3, such that when Paul referred to the third heaven, the Jews would immediately recognize, "Oh, the third heaven - Paul is referring to the spiritual realm." I don't see any indication that the Jews numbered the heavens.
2. So, there seems to be the possibility that when Paul referred to the third heaven, he was referring to the new heaven and earth to come after this present heaven and earth pass away. Then Gen.1:1 would be the first, we are in the second, & the coming would be the third. This makes sense to me.
I would say that both perspectives of the heavens may very well be accurate. Wierwilles comment about what the "ancient" Jews believed umm, I don't see it.
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Steve Lortz
"The ancients... who exactly?"
First, Luke, the author of Acts 2:2, a physician, an educated Greco-Roman. Second, "Theopholus," probably the Roman magistrate assigned to review Paul's case for Nero, again an educated Greco-Roman. Can't get much more exact than that.
"No doubt ideas have varied considerably over the pre-Christian millennia."
Acts 2:2 wasn't written in the pre-Christian millennia. It was written in the mid-first-century, probably in the 60s.
"What did Stone Age Man think?"
Apart from Otzi the Ice Man, how many stone age men do we know? If we could know what Otzi thought, how would we know his thoughts would be representative of "Sone Age Man?"
"(Never mind the thoughts of Greek philosophers over an extended period.)"
Fortunately, we DO know what Greek philosophers thought over an extended period, because many of them wrote, and some of their works have survived. If you doubt me, I suggest you get hold of a copy of The Origins of Stoic Cosmology by David E. Hahm (1977). It goes into EXCRUCIATING detail regarding what the Stoics thought, and why. Stoicism became and remained the dominant philosophy for every educated Greco-Roman from about 300 BC to AD 200. It didn't lose its place until Pax Romana collapsed in the third-century. The mid-first-century was the hay day of Stoicism. Seneca, Rome's greatest intellectual at the time, contemporaneous with Paul and Luke, was a great promoter of Stoicism, and he was the tutor for young Nero. Yes... we need to mind the thoughts of specific philosophies that shaped the intellectual world at the time Luke was writing.
"What did Egyptians at relevant times think? What did Assyrians think?"
As far as Acts 2:2 is concerned, that the Egyptians and the Assyrians thought doesn't matter one whit.
"Are there any common 'ancient' concepts?"
Yes, at specific times and places there were.
"'Locations' for heaven?"
Again, yes. Go out on a clear night away from modern light pollution and look up. You can see heaven with your eyes.
"Or is it simply a recognition of something 'much bigger' than us and our planet?"
No! To the Stoics, the Void was much bigger than our planet, OR the heavens, OR even the Cosmos itself.
"Is heaven a manmade concept?"
Yes, as are ALL concepts.
"Is, indeed, God, a manmade concept?"
God, Whom I believe manifests His works objectively in Creation, has given you the freedom to answer that question for yourself, as well as to ask it.
Love,
Steve
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