Well, for whatever it's worth, VP (you know he wasn't really an extraterrestrial) Wierwille taught that heaven is anything above Earth. Yup, fits like a fart in a spacesuit.
Cosmology is a discipline that was first introduced by the Greeks, about 500 years before Christ. I think what Steve is saying (I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm wrong.) is that Wierwille incorrectly stated and/or portrayed how the ancients defined Heaven.
well, "cosmology" is a word that was introduced in the 1700s.
"ancient" and "the ancients" are words that point at a very wide and diverse field of experience and history.
and clearly, the Greeks were not the first or only human earthlings to study and contemplate and develop a theory for the structure of the universe.
and that 500-year-old view was not the only view in the world at the time of the writing of the Book of Acts.
and it is not even clear whether that cosmology was even the cosmology that the authors (and/or disciples) viewed the world through.
so i am wondering if Steve is saying that author/s, the disciples, or even Jesus somehow exclusively viewed or interpreted or expressed the universe through the Aristotelian model or something...which then proves why Wierwille was wrong about where "heaven" is.
From this verse in Proverbs, we see that people during O.T. times, thought of Heaven as being someplace that was "up" and that God resides there. Otherwise, how could He look "down"? But, does that mean that ANYWHERE that is "up" above Earth is Heaven? I don't see it saying that. It makes it sound more like Heaven is a specific place, like Neptune or Pluto. Both of them are "up" above the Earth's surface but, both occupy specific spacial locations, not just any old place above the Earth. In my opinion, I don't think that people from ancient cultures thought of Heaven as being any place above Earth. I think they thought of it as being a specific location. But, Wierwille's definition, like so many other definitions he propounded, was a very "convenient" way to deal with something that might appear contradictory or, at the very least, unexplainable. That was Wierwille's premise. Everything has to be explainable, has to "fit like a .....", even if he had to fabricate the explanation to make it fit.
i agree that wierwille's method involved gobs of forced explanations.
But again, one of my main points is that it seems there was no consensus among "the ancients." So we basically cannot effectively speak of "ancients" as thinking this way or that way as a whole without some further contextualization. Not even if we narrow the context down to an ethnicity, or region, or period. Not even the Jews had a common cosmology in the early first century.
Also, thinking outloud here...i think its important to point out that if the Psalms were indeed written as songs, and the lyrics vividly poetic, metaphorical...."down" could mean quite a few things. "Higher" and "lower" does not always mean mere physical altitude. It can refer to different vibrational frequencies, or higher and lower "orders of complexity" in the universe or consciousness or "kindgoms of God," or higher and lower "along the ladder of angelic realms..." yada yada yada.
But even if the lyrics were meant to be literally physical or somehow spatial...and heaven was somewhere outside of the earth's atmosphere....and God was the author of Psalms with awareness of the shape and position of the earth in the solar system...seems it may read "The Lord looks in from heaven..."
where is 'God' looking down from?
I think it's more a figure then literal really...
depending on where god is
could he be looking up at the entire human race?
doesn't say dead or alive either, that would not be a factor I think
just thinking, cause I can....
yep.
if God is everywhere in time and space, how can God be looking somewhere that God is not, unless it is some sort of metaphor?
I don't see this as a matter of establishing where God is or isn't. The issue at stake here is where did people of ancient cultures "perceive" God/Heaven to be. "Any place above Earth" just doesn't seem to fit the bill, as far as I can tell.
I recall reading somewhere that "God looking down from heaven" is a figure, to aid our understanding of His omnipresence. It's difficult to grasp how God could possibly be present everywhere at all times, but it is rather easier to have a mental picture of God waaaay up high somewhere, looking down upon everything, seeing everything, watching everything, knowing everything that happens. And then it hits you: if God were sitting waaay up high somewhere, looking down upon the earth like that, He could only see half of it at a time. Even to say "God looking" is to use a figure. He has no eyes.
I heard lots of that, how heaven is anywhere above the earth's surface, but I've never had it explained or shown to me.
Edited to add: I'd be inclined to accept that heaven is anywhere above the earth's atmosphere. Or perhaps that would be the heavens (plural) and not heaven (singular).
If I were (still) a Wierwille apologist, I might offer Genesis 1:6 & 7 in support of VP's assertion that heaven is any place above earth. In this passage,it seems that the air mass that separated the waters on the earth from the waters above was called "the firmament" or heaven. So in that context, heaven is the air mass above the earth.
And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which [were] under the firmament from the waters which [were] above the firmament: and it was so.
But
It is quite true that Wierwille had an atrocious habit of twisting scripture to fit his predetermined doctrines. Fabricating Greek definitions was one of his favorite techniques for shoving that hand into the proverbial glove.
So on this one, if it appears that the Bible asserts that heaven could refer to anyplace above earth...I think he just got lucky. :-)
I don't think we can include this in the long list of Actual Errors in PFAL.
Possibly the most practiced ceremony regarding death in our present culture is interment (burial).
Contrast this to another popular option, cremation. Sometimes, with cremation, the remains are scattered to the winds. By Wierwille's definition, these people have literally gone to heaven. Likewise, some native American cultures placed their dead high on platforms where the birds of prey could consume them. This was so their spirits would soar through the heavens (plural). That part is open to debate, but, from a literal standpoint, if such a bird consumed a body and then flew through the air, by Wierwille's definition, that person went to heaven.
edit
I suppose one could argue that being in an aircraft would be considered being in heaven. However, in the scenario involving birds, the person, through the biological processes involved in digestion and absorption, actually becomes a part of the bird, not simply a passenger.
Maybe this is somehow tied to the idea of coming from dust and going back to dust. Dust is carried about by the winds and sometimes reaches amazing altitudes.`Did they, perhaps, envision the dust being carried away to some unseen locale?
That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
Shamayim comes from shameh, a root meaning to be lofty. It literally means the sky.
"Shamayim" is a crucial concept in the Bible. There are at least three different shamayim or "heavens" in the bible: 1) The atmosphere where birds fly and clouds wander above the earth; 2) The heaven where the celestial bodies wander (wandering stars = planets) and stars reside; 3) The heaven where God and "the hosts of heaven" reside (Psalm 90:4; 2Peter 3:8; Isaiah 57:15), also called "paradise," the "heaven of heavens," or in Hebrew shamayi h'shamayim (םשמיה שמי) in scripture (cf. Deut 10:14; 1Ki 8:27; 2Ch 2:6, 6:18; Neh 9:6).
from the opening post:
That just can't be. The heavens didn't begin at the surface of the earth. They began at the orbit of the moon.
but even from a casual survey of occurances of "heaven" in the Bible, we see "the fowls of heaven," "the dew of heaven," and "the clouds of heaven," all of which seem to indicate that some scripture does indeed refer to a heaven that is most certainly this side of the moon.
then there is that celestial/astronomical/astrological heaven, and there is plenty of scriptural references to it.
and then there is a heaven that is even more heavenly than that? imho, this is the least understood, and probably the most important. it involves the "realm" of consciousness, or awareness.
and something it shares with both of the other heavens, is that all 3 are also right here, right now, surrounding us, and within us. air, space and consciousness.
but we are born like innocent fish who do not know how uttlerly soaking wet in heaven we are, and life is about waking up and noticing.
and some ancients did exactly that. like Abraham and Moses.
and something it shares with both of the other heavens, is that all 3 are also right here, right now, surrounding us, and within us. air, space and consciousness.
but we are born like innocent fish who do not know how uttlerly soaking wet in heaven we are, and life is about waking up and noticing.
and some ancients did exactly that. like Abraham and Moses.
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waysider
Psalm 14:2 New Living Translation (NLT) 2 The Lord looks down from heaven on the entire human race; he looks to see if anyone is truly wise, if anyone seeks God. From this verse
waysider
Well, for whatever it's worth, VP (you know he wasn't really an extraterrestrial) Wierwille taught that heaven is anything above Earth. Yup, fits like a fart in a spacesuit.
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cman
I see theories in your post Steve, but no questions.
None that I can find anyway.
Is there a question in there or more then a few?
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Steve Lortz
No questions... just one more actual error in PFAL.
Love,
Steve
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sirguessalot
You lost me at "According to ancient cosmology," Steve.
Seems more like you are referring to a very specific ancient cosmology and comparing it to Wierwille's.
Are you trying to say that this cosmology you describe is not only more valid than Wierwille's, but the most valid cosmology?
Or that it is the cosmology of the author/s of the Book of Acts?
just trying to help clarify.
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waysider
Cosmology is a discipline that was first introduced by the Greeks, about 500 years before Christ. I think what Steve is saying (I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm wrong.) is that Wierwille incorrectly stated and/or portrayed how the ancients defined Heaven.
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sirguessalot
well, "cosmology" is a word that was introduced in the 1700s.
"ancient" and "the ancients" are words that point at a very wide and diverse field of experience and history.
and clearly, the Greeks were not the first or only human earthlings to study and contemplate and develop a theory for the structure of the universe.
and that 500-year-old view was not the only view in the world at the time of the writing of the Book of Acts.
and it is not even clear whether that cosmology was even the cosmology that the authors (and/or disciples) viewed the world through.
so i am wondering if Steve is saying that author/s, the disciples, or even Jesus somehow exclusively viewed or interpreted or expressed the universe through the Aristotelian model or something...which then proves why Wierwille was wrong about where "heaven" is.
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waysider
Psalm 14:2
New Living Translation (NLT)
2 The Lord looks down from heaven
on the entire human race;
he looks to see if anyone is truly wise,
if anyone seeks God.
From this verse in Proverbs, we see that people during O.T. times, thought of Heaven as being someplace that was "up" and that God resides there. Otherwise, how could He look "down"? But, does that mean that ANYWHERE that is "up" above Earth is Heaven? I don't see it saying that. It makes it sound more like Heaven is a specific place, like Neptune or Pluto. Both of them are "up" above the Earth's surface but, both occupy specific spacial locations, not just any old place above the Earth. In my opinion, I don't think that people from ancient cultures thought of Heaven as being any place above Earth. I think they thought of it as being a specific location. But, Wierwille's definition, like so many other definitions he propounded, was a very "convenient" way to deal with something that might appear contradictory or, at the very least, unexplainable. That was Wierwille's premise. Everything has to be explainable, has to "fit like a .....", even if he had to fabricate the explanation to make it fit.
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cman
where is 'God' looking down from?
I think it's more a figure then literal really...
depending on where god is
could he be looking up at the entire human race?
doesn't say dead or alive either, that would not be a factor I think
just thinking, cause I can....
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sirguessalot
i agree that wierwille's method involved gobs of forced explanations.
But again, one of my main points is that it seems there was no consensus among "the ancients." So we basically cannot effectively speak of "ancients" as thinking this way or that way as a whole without some further contextualization. Not even if we narrow the context down to an ethnicity, or region, or period. Not even the Jews had a common cosmology in the early first century.
Also, thinking outloud here...i think its important to point out that if the Psalms were indeed written as songs, and the lyrics vividly poetic, metaphorical...."down" could mean quite a few things. "Higher" and "lower" does not always mean mere physical altitude. It can refer to different vibrational frequencies, or higher and lower "orders of complexity" in the universe or consciousness or "kindgoms of God," or higher and lower "along the ladder of angelic realms..." yada yada yada.
But even if the lyrics were meant to be literally physical or somehow spatial...and heaven was somewhere outside of the earth's atmosphere....and God was the author of Psalms with awareness of the shape and position of the earth in the solar system...seems it may read "The Lord looks in from heaven..."
yep.
if God is everywhere in time and space, how can God be looking somewhere that God is not, unless it is some sort of metaphor?
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cman
ok, we gotta synchronize our posts better sirg...1 minute off this time
lol...
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sirguessalot
ha yeah. happened the other day too i recall.
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waysider
I don't see this as a matter of establishing where God is or isn't. The issue at stake here is where did people of ancient cultures "perceive" God/Heaven to be. "Any place above Earth" just doesn't seem to fit the bill, as far as I can tell.
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cman
I agree.
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sirguessalot
i do too
depends on which ancient culture...and when.
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OperaBuff
I recall reading somewhere that "God looking down from heaven" is a figure, to aid our understanding of His omnipresence. It's difficult to grasp how God could possibly be present everywhere at all times, but it is rather easier to have a mental picture of God waaaay up high somewhere, looking down upon everything, seeing everything, watching everything, knowing everything that happens. And then it hits you: if God were sitting waaay up high somewhere, looking down upon the earth like that, He could only see half of it at a time. Even to say "God looking" is to use a figure. He has no eyes.
I heard lots of that, how heaven is anywhere above the earth's surface, but I've never had it explained or shown to me.
Edited to add: I'd be inclined to accept that heaven is anywhere above the earth's atmosphere. Or perhaps that would be the heavens (plural) and not heaven (singular).
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cman
Not to be argumentative or even instructional.
But we have this treasure in earthen vessels.
As well as heaven is anywhere above the earth's atmosphere.
Both can be right.
And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.
Comes to mind as well as many such scripture.
And life itself is in the earth and above where there is heaven.
What is life without heaven, or hell for that matter.
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Jbarrax
If I were (still) a Wierwille apologist, I might offer Genesis 1:6 & 7 in support of VP's assertion that heaven is any place above earth. In this passage,it seems that the air mass that separated the waters on the earth from the waters above was called "the firmament" or heaven. So in that context, heaven is the air mass above the earth.
----------------------------------------------------------
And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which [were] under the firmament from the waters which [were] above the firmament: and it was so.
But
It is quite true that Wierwille had an atrocious habit of twisting scripture to fit his predetermined doctrines. Fabricating Greek definitions was one of his favorite techniques for shoving that hand into the proverbial glove.
So on this one, if it appears that the Bible asserts that heaven could refer to anyplace above earth...I think he just got lucky. :-)
I don't think we can include this in the long list of Actual Errors in PFAL.
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waysider
Yes, but the question is... Did "the ancients" consider anything above ground to be Heaven?
I think "they" thought of it as being a place...not just any old place, but, a "specific" place. (either physical or spiritual)
But, that's just my opinion.
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cman
well...i don't think heaven is seen the way the ancient one's saw it
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waysider
Possibly the most practiced ceremony regarding death in our present culture is interment (burial).
Contrast this to another popular option, cremation. Sometimes, with cremation, the remains are scattered to the winds. By Wierwille's definition, these people have literally gone to heaven. Likewise, some native American cultures placed their dead high on platforms where the birds of prey could consume them. This was so their spirits would soar through the heavens (plural). That part is open to debate, but, from a literal standpoint, if such a bird consumed a body and then flew through the air, by Wierwille's definition, that person went to heaven.
edit
I suppose one could argue that being in an aircraft would be considered being in heaven. However, in the scenario involving birds, the person, through the biological processes involved in digestion and absorption, actually becomes a part of the bird, not simply a passenger.
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waysider
Maybe this is somehow tied to the idea of coming from dust and going back to dust. Dust is carried about by the winds and sometimes reaches amazing altitudes.`Did they, perhaps, envision the dust being carried away to some unseen locale?
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cman
yeah, thought of this one too
Genesis 22:17
That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
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sirguessalot
from a wikipedia article on Heaven (Judaism)...
from the opening post:
but even from a casual survey of occurances of "heaven" in the Bible, we see "the fowls of heaven," "the dew of heaven," and "the clouds of heaven," all of which seem to indicate that some scripture does indeed refer to a heaven that is most certainly this side of the moon.
then there is that celestial/astronomical/astrological heaven, and there is plenty of scriptural references to it.
and then there is a heaven that is even more heavenly than that? imho, this is the least understood, and probably the most important. it involves the "realm" of consciousness, or awareness.
and something it shares with both of the other heavens, is that all 3 are also right here, right now, surrounding us, and within us. air, space and consciousness.
but we are born like innocent fish who do not know how uttlerly soaking wet in heaven we are, and life is about waking up and noticing.
and some ancients did exactly that. like Abraham and Moses.
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cman
thanks sirg, well said,
all of it
I like this especially -
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