Interesting that you would call TWI Christ-centered, Refiner.
I think TWI was very concerned with the person of Jesus Christ, and in that sense I agree with you. TWI was concerned about his identity, his mission, and his accomplishments. They were concerned about what is available to Christians today as a result of the work that Christ accomplished. They eagerly anticipate his return, which they view as beginning with a pretribulation rapture of the saints.
But at the same time, their particular form of dispensationalism places a far greater emphasis on the Jesus Christ revealed in the letters of Paul, with a much lesser emphasis (doctrinally speaking) on the Jesus Christ revealed in the gospels.
But TWI has a bit in common with JWs in that prayer is ALWAYS addressed to God the Father, and is in the name of the Son.
Here's some distinctions:
JW's think of Jesus as "The Master." TWI hardly ever thinks of him that way.
JW's think of Jesus as "The Great Teacher." TWI hardly ever refers to him that way.
TWI thinks of Jesus as Lord, but for my money, you'd be hard put to get a TWI follower to tell you what that lordship means.
TWI is Christ-centered?
Having been in both TWI and the JW's, I would argue that your dichotomy between the two groups, at least on this subject, is flawed (which is to say that JW's are as Christ-centered as TWI).
The I think the real distinction between the two groups is in the area of pneumatikos/charismata.
My father still believes it, but does not attend their meetings. Same with mom. They're divorced.
Sibs were never into it, and it never caught on with the extended family.
I remember when I got witnessed to by TWI: I was stunned to hear there were Christians in the world who believed Jesus Christ was God. Little did I know that they were the majority!
Well you have me at a disadvantage Raf, in that My views of What TWI practise are minimal and Im only now forming opinions based on what ive read here.
So I may well be in error.
Certainly the Witrnesses are horrified by any displays of emotional charismata.
My problem with JW's was the legalism. My problem with TWI turns out to be the licentiousness.
Best of both worlds.
From my perspective, I tend to view twi as also having maintained their own distinctive brand of "legalism",
but one which ultimately (strangely enough) supported or accommodated their "licentiousness".
Make no mistake about it - as I recall, there was plenty of "legalism" in twi, though seemingly designed to fuel the "licentiousness" of the leaders. And I think in many cases, they even derived their justification for their legalism right out of the Old Testament (i.e., tithing, Man-of-God, every-woman-belongs-to-the-king,etc.). Wierwille lied when he said that the Gospels belonged to the category of the OT -
in practice the words of Jesus carried even less authority than the Torah. The Gospels might as well have been regarded on the level of apocrypha, fine for some historical bits about Jesus and a couple lessons on "believing", with the teachings of Jesus being almost wholly inapplicable and irrevelant to Christians.
Sticking only to the writings of Paul, devoid of an intimate connection to the "golden rule" sayings of Christ, we also might just as well have been followers of Mithra, standing beneath a grate with the warm blood of bulls being shed upon our heads, or followers of Dionysus babbling in tongues incoherently as evidence of our spirituality.
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excathedra
refiner, how about research and write a book about x-whatevers of various cults !!!!!!!
:)-->
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Raf
Interesting that you would call TWI Christ-centered, Refiner.
I think TWI was very concerned with the person of Jesus Christ, and in that sense I agree with you. TWI was concerned about his identity, his mission, and his accomplishments. They were concerned about what is available to Christians today as a result of the work that Christ accomplished. They eagerly anticipate his return, which they view as beginning with a pretribulation rapture of the saints.
But at the same time, their particular form of dispensationalism places a far greater emphasis on the Jesus Christ revealed in the letters of Paul, with a much lesser emphasis (doctrinally speaking) on the Jesus Christ revealed in the gospels.
But TWI has a bit in common with JWs in that prayer is ALWAYS addressed to God the Father, and is in the name of the Son.
Here's some distinctions:
JW's think of Jesus as "The Master." TWI hardly ever thinks of him that way.
JW's think of Jesus as "The Great Teacher." TWI hardly ever refers to him that way.
TWI thinks of Jesus as Lord, but for my money, you'd be hard put to get a TWI follower to tell you what that lordship means.
TWI is Christ-centered?
Having been in both TWI and the JW's, I would argue that your dichotomy between the two groups, at least on this subject, is flawed (which is to say that JW's are as Christ-centered as TWI).
The I think the real distinction between the two groups is in the area of pneumatikos/charismata.
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excathedra
raf, when you were a JW and for how long ?
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Raf
Through age 12. After that I was hanging around, but not active.
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excathedra
wow. are you parents and/or relatives still dubs ?
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Raf
No one in the family is active any more.
My father still believes it, but does not attend their meetings. Same with mom. They're divorced.
Sibs were never into it, and it never caught on with the extended family.
I remember when I got witnessed to by TWI: I was stunned to hear there were Christians in the world who believed Jesus Christ was God. Little did I know that they were the majority!
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Refiner
Well you have me at a disadvantage Raf, in that My views of What TWI practise are minimal and Im only now forming opinions based on what ive read here.
So I may well be in error.
Certainly the Witrnesses are horrified by any displays of emotional charismata.
They believe such things are of the Devil.
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Raf
Or maybe I give JW's a bit more credit than you do.
At least they actually meant "master" when they called him "master."
My problem with JW's was the legalism. My problem with TWI turns out to be the licentiousness.
Best of both worlds.
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excathedra
goes deeper than that.... for me
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TheInvisibleDan
From my perspective, I tend to view twi as also having maintained their own distinctive brand of "legalism",
but one which ultimately (strangely enough) supported or accommodated their "licentiousness".
Make no mistake about it - as I recall, there was plenty of "legalism" in twi, though seemingly designed to fuel the "licentiousness" of the leaders. And I think in many cases, they even derived their justification for their legalism right out of the Old Testament (i.e., tithing, Man-of-God, every-woman-belongs-to-the-king,etc.). Wierwille lied when he said that the Gospels belonged to the category of the OT -
in practice the words of Jesus carried even less authority than the Torah. The Gospels might as well have been regarded on the level of apocrypha, fine for some historical bits about Jesus and a couple lessons on "believing", with the teachings of Jesus being almost wholly inapplicable and irrevelant to Christians.
Sticking only to the writings of Paul, devoid of an intimate connection to the "golden rule" sayings of Christ, we also might just as well have been followers of Mithra, standing beneath a grate with the warm blood of bulls being shed upon our heads, or followers of Dionysus babbling in tongues incoherently as evidence of our spirituality.
Danny
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