John did meet with us sometimes to pray for vp. VP would take off in the motorcoach to Emporia or sometimes to HQ to see Mrs. W., and when he’d come back, we’d have a meeting and were told he was very, very sick and needed prayer. I can’t remember exactly if we were told he had cancer or not. I know when I read it here on GSC, it didn’t surprise me, as I knew that was how he died, but don’t know how I knew that - - whether John told us or not.
So pretty much our whole first year from August 1984 to May, 1985 - - we all knew vp was very, very (deathly) ill. On his good days, he worked outdoors with the corps. For some reason, vp liked my hubby and me. My ex was on the work crew each and every time; and vp would chit chat with me when he saw me. We sat at the “head table” frequently when he was there and were told not to talk to him unless he talked to us first - - but I thought that was stupid, so would always find something to talk to him about. Just before vp died, our job assignments were given out for our 2nd year and mine was to be VP’s assistant there at the campus - - something that, obviously, never happened; although it would have been interesting.
On his not so good days, he just sat with us in the chapel and rambled on about who knows what - - and of course, sex and Bedside Manners. Remember once he talked about the Lord’s Prayer and that there was a lot more to it than he had taught people in the past. We went LEAD our second block and he was still well enough to do one of his infamous “Pajama Nights” and - - yes, you guessed it - - - showed the lesbian, German Shepherd video. Thank God I wasn’t there for that!
One afternoon he did talk to us about his eye. His reason for having to have the surgery was based on the lights during the filming of PFAL. He said he needed to have the surgery for some time. The docs wanted him to get it done. He shared how he wrestled with the decision for so long because - - and he didn’t say this, but it was implied - - of being the MOG- - and in the Old Testament, the High Priest couldn’t be sick or crippled in any way, supposedly. Something like that. So he felt like if he had the surgery done, it would effect God’s people (you can roll your eyes now). Anyway, he proceeded to tell us about finding a guy who made fake eyes. He was pretty honest with us about how his vulnerabilities and not wanting the eye to look fake and have people stare at him. He was concerned about the eye falling out, not being able to read, whether he would bump into things, etc. They finally found a guy who was world-renown for his craftsmanship. VP was very impressed with the guy and went on and on about how detailed and perfect this guy’s work was. He even passed around one of his “spare” eyes for us to see and handle. So he was very open with us about it - - and I believe I heard he did the same thing at Emporia once.
Well, I know this has been long, but wanted to corroborate some of the stuff HCW posted above. VP’s waning health was no secret - - although I am aware that the information was not widely publicized. I can’t remember the last time he was at the campus, because the motorcoach was there frequently; and it was not unusual for vp to just stay in the coach. John would send a group of kids to visit with him at times to kinda cheer him up, but the rest of us didn’t see him much towards late April and early May. We knew the man was very ill; deathly ill. John was very obviously distraught about it when he would ask us to pray for him.
The night we got the news that he had actually died is a blur to me. I think that we were called out of bed in the middle of the night and told. John in his manner, just told us the news and didn’t offer any more information. We were just stunned in one sense in that it had actually happened - - but I think most of us knew it was coming soon.
I’ve got a little more to add later, but that’s it for now. Hopefully, some others will fill in some of my blanks.
Oh yeah, one more thing I wanted to add about John H. There's a lot of specualation about why vpw chose John to take over at RC. But one of the reasons, I believe he was picked - - and I cannot verify this - - was only mentioned once that I know of by John - - and that was because John H. NEVER drew a paycheck from twi. Not as a LC, not as a RC, not as a Corps Coordinator. John and his brother had their own landscaping business and John had his own money (and it was rumored Mary Ann came from a money family; though I don't know about that).
I think, besides John's gruff mannerisms being the way they were, that the other reason he wasn't intimidated by any of the other guys was cuz they weren't paying his paycheck. That and being handpicked by vpw - - kinda gave him a little clout. He was his own man, that's for sure and was not going to pander to LCM, the trustees or any of the other campus coordinators.
Thanks Jardinero for that post. It does help when people post details like this. quite useful. I do wish to point out that while VPW's illness might have been "no secret" to those who might have had occasion to interact with VPW it was a different situation in the field. This information was not distributed and when questions relative to VPW's health did emerge there was a total lack of real straight
forward information. The types of responses I received were defensive and vague. Those of us who were persistent about it were dealt with in more direct ways such as being told explicitly that VPW's health was no one's concern but his and we should be grateful that we have the opportunity to learn from his example.
Whether or not there were deliberate mandates for people to sit on this info I don't know. But it was difficult to get straight info about the nature of VPW's health problems. And the higher up I went in the chain to get this info the harder it was to get straight answers. I learned about his cancer from someone who had left the Corps.
No, I wholeheartedly agree with you. That's why I wrote that part about hearing the SNS hook up prior to heading out to RC and hearing vpw's voice like he had just had a stroke. We were shocked and concerned. But when we also asked about his health out on the field, we were just told "I dunno" with a shrug from our leaders.
And though we were asked by John to pray and were told vpw was deathly ill, his remarks were always brief and certainly not open to discussion.
I think by that time, there was such an exclusionary air within the ministry with most people being on a "need to know" basis and anything that dealt with poor health being viewed as "negative" to discuss, that it wouldn't even "occur" to us at that time to talk about it much. Even talking casually with him, it was just not the kind of thing you'd probably ask him - - "by the way, how are you feeling today??" as odd as that may seem today.
Your quote:
quote:
Whether or not there were deliberate mandates for people to sit on this info I don't know.
Yeah Thanks Jard. You jogged some memories for me too. Haven't thought about this stuff for ages.
And for the record signals :)--> K.I.S.S. for me was my handle way back in the Trancechat day. I chose it because there was a l-o-t, LOT of craziness flyin' round the threads then. I felt we could use a reminder of the "old" sayin' Keep It Simple Stupid.
No. BTW. I'm not calling anybody here at the Cafe stupid.
In terms of fillin' in some pieces.... There were massive power struggles goin' on all over the ministry. More than a few of the tip top leadership folks were less than impressed with LCM being president. He didn't have the respect and was unable to earn the level of respect VP had.
Speaking of work, VP had worked basically every aspect of the ministry at one point in time and had, as the ministry grew, turned over different aspects of it to anyone who'd proven to him they could handle it. He'd give you an opportunity to show him you knew what you were doing and if you did, he was cool with you. If you acted like you knew what you were doing and "blew it," he wouldn't trust you very far.
The quickest, easiest way to get in VP's good graces was to show you had a strong, solid work ethic. He felt that the way a person worked was the best indicator of their character, especially how you'd handle yourself when the work was in any way hard, especially when you got tired ot you didn't like the work you were doing. If you did your best, he'd love it even if you messed up. He'd say, "Well, you've got heart."
"Heart" and a basic ability & desire to work were more important to VP than "professional credentials." It was Don W. who felt precisely the opposite. VP believed you could take a person with "a heart for God and a desire to work & learn" and teach them the work of the ministry. Donnie believed you could take a trained professional in doing the work and teach them the word. The two, father & son had completely antithetical POV's on basically everything. I was actually closer, friendship wise w/Donnie than VP. My relationship w/VP was more like student/mentor. At times visiting with each of them, they would talk about the other & their differences when it came to ministry philosophy.
Personally, I believe that a lot of VP's disfunction was a result of the riff between Donnie & himself. But that's another story.
I want to thank you again for your testimony here, especially in that long post two days ago.
One of the reasons I've delayed engaging you on the relatively few points in which we disagree is because I admire so much the detail you remember and proclaim where you and I are in complete agreement.
You help a lot of people here shake off the emotions and get back to the facts, those who WANT to that is.
"Whether there's a spiritual component to some cancers I don't know, but I checked my AC notes awhile back when this came up to see what was taught--at least the year I was there. VPW didn't teach that someone had to be possessed to get cancer; he taught that the disease is caused by a devil spirit. There's a difference. Again, I don't know if it's true, but that's what was taught when I sat through the class."
Like cancer, I've often thought that smoking and homosesxuality were "caused" by devil spirits, yet I never thought that everyone who gets sucked into them is possessed.
Dang! Any deadly bacterium has "life in itself" but no one thought it was a devil spirit!
This (cancer = ds) idea is just one more item where students got only half the story and then went on to make up the other half.
And if you and I were to get down and discuss a few pages worth of posts, I'm sure your individual lack of diligence would proclaim itself.
Mere attendance is not diligence. We ALL lacked diligence in getting the story right and getting it all. We ALL rested on our laurels of past successes, and the verbal traditions that proliferated at TWI became our doctrines.
Attendance at TWI, especially in the later 70's and early 80's meant being exposed to many TVTs (Twi Verbal traditions) and these prevented many from getting the whole accurate story.
True understanding only will come for those grads who return to PFAL and see what they missed. THEN you'll understand.
****
And jardinero, you can close your eyes to what really happened back then all you want. Of course, when the facts are re-presented you'll have to close them again.
I'm not hyping a cult, just reminding us all that we didn't get the facts right when they were offered to us, nor the truths.
I had forgotten a lot of the details until you mentioned them, but your posts are true. I checked with hubs and he didn't have anything to add, except for when Jo* Ri**ardi called out during the dog/porno flick "Lord I have a beagle inside", which certainly brought comic relief to that awkwardly painful moment. (There was a ministry song at the time called "Lord I Have an Eagle Inside"...I guess you had to be there).
I don't remember the specifics of learning about the melanoma but it seems that we knew about it before we left the way on our "practicum" year.
One of those work days we were tearing down a shed. For some reason I ended up hanging out and talking with Pete the motorcoach driver, who voiced concern when he realized that VP was late in getting his medicine. I wanted to ask him what he was taking and why but of course I didn't. I had learned long before not to ask questions...
thank God we have YOU to tell about how diligent YOU ARE and how WE aren't.... Mike, you are the most self-centered, pompous gas bag I have EVER met....
I too lacked the diligence I speak of here back then. To this I have admitted often. You glossed over those admissions.
Even now, I must drive myself daily to read things I "think" I already know enough about. My diligence wanes at times.
I'm not preaching myself as a master of diligence here, merely pointing out that most of our problems were self-inflicted due to our "kicking back" in the study department. This is a very human trait that we ALL suffer from. Drifting from the True God through a lack of diligence is an oft repeated scenario in the Bible, starting with Eve. Over and over the "golden calf syndrome" is documented in the history of Israel, and the first century church.
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jardinero
John did meet with us sometimes to pray for vp. VP would take off in the motorcoach to Emporia or sometimes to HQ to see Mrs. W., and when he’d come back, we’d have a meeting and were told he was very, very sick and needed prayer. I can’t remember exactly if we were told he had cancer or not. I know when I read it here on GSC, it didn’t surprise me, as I knew that was how he died, but don’t know how I knew that - - whether John told us or not.
So pretty much our whole first year from August 1984 to May, 1985 - - we all knew vp was very, very (deathly) ill. On his good days, he worked outdoors with the corps. For some reason, vp liked my hubby and me. My ex was on the work crew each and every time; and vp would chit chat with me when he saw me. We sat at the “head table” frequently when he was there and were told not to talk to him unless he talked to us first - - but I thought that was stupid, so would always find something to talk to him about. Just before vp died, our job assignments were given out for our 2nd year and mine was to be VP’s assistant there at the campus - - something that, obviously, never happened; although it would have been interesting.
On his not so good days, he just sat with us in the chapel and rambled on about who knows what - - and of course, sex and Bedside Manners. Remember once he talked about the Lord’s Prayer and that there was a lot more to it than he had taught people in the past. We went LEAD our second block and he was still well enough to do one of his infamous “Pajama Nights” and - - yes, you guessed it - - - showed the lesbian, German Shepherd video. Thank God I wasn’t there for that!
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jardinero
One afternoon he did talk to us about his eye. His reason for having to have the surgery was based on the lights during the filming of PFAL. He said he needed to have the surgery for some time. The docs wanted him to get it done. He shared how he wrestled with the decision for so long because - - and he didn’t say this, but it was implied - - of being the MOG- - and in the Old Testament, the High Priest couldn’t be sick or crippled in any way, supposedly. Something like that. So he felt like if he had the surgery done, it would effect God’s people (you can roll your eyes now). Anyway, he proceeded to tell us about finding a guy who made fake eyes. He was pretty honest with us about how his vulnerabilities and not wanting the eye to look fake and have people stare at him. He was concerned about the eye falling out, not being able to read, whether he would bump into things, etc. They finally found a guy who was world-renown for his craftsmanship. VP was very impressed with the guy and went on and on about how detailed and perfect this guy’s work was. He even passed around one of his “spare” eyes for us to see and handle. So he was very open with us about it - - and I believe I heard he did the same thing at Emporia once.
Well, I know this has been long, but wanted to corroborate some of the stuff HCW posted above. VP’s waning health was no secret - - although I am aware that the information was not widely publicized. I can’t remember the last time he was at the campus, because the motorcoach was there frequently; and it was not unusual for vp to just stay in the coach. John would send a group of kids to visit with him at times to kinda cheer him up, but the rest of us didn’t see him much towards late April and early May. We knew the man was very ill; deathly ill. John was very obviously distraught about it when he would ask us to pray for him.
The night we got the news that he had actually died is a blur to me. I think that we were called out of bed in the middle of the night and told. John in his manner, just told us the news and didn’t offer any more information. We were just stunned in one sense in that it had actually happened - - but I think most of us knew it was coming soon.
I’ve got a little more to add later, but that’s it for now. Hopefully, some others will fill in some of my blanks.
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jardinero
Oh yeah, one more thing I wanted to add about John H. There's a lot of specualation about why vpw chose John to take over at RC. But one of the reasons, I believe he was picked - - and I cannot verify this - - was only mentioned once that I know of by John - - and that was because John H. NEVER drew a paycheck from twi. Not as a LC, not as a RC, not as a Corps Coordinator. John and his brother had their own landscaping business and John had his own money (and it was rumored Mary Ann came from a money family; though I don't know about that).
I think, besides John's gruff mannerisms being the way they were, that the other reason he wasn't intimidated by any of the other guys was cuz they weren't paying his paycheck. That and being handpicked by vpw - - kinda gave him a little clout. He was his own man, that's for sure and was not going to pander to LCM, the trustees or any of the other campus coordinators.
Just a little aside.
:D--> 
:P-->
J.
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rascal
Thanks for taking the time to fill in some of the blanks Jard....
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diazbro
Thanks Jardinero for that post. It does help when people post details like this. quite useful. I do wish to point out that while VPW's illness might have been "no secret" to those who might have had occasion to interact with VPW it was a different situation in the field. This information was not distributed and when questions relative to VPW's health did emerge there was a total lack of real straight
forward information. The types of responses I received were defensive and vague. Those of us who were persistent about it were dealt with in more direct ways such as being told explicitly that VPW's health was no one's concern but his and we should be grateful that we have the opportunity to learn from his example.
Whether or not there were deliberate mandates for people to sit on this info I don't know. But it was difficult to get straight info about the nature of VPW's health problems. And the higher up I went in the chain to get this info the harder it was to get straight answers. I learned about his cancer from someone who had left the Corps.
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jardinero
Hi Diazbro:
No, I wholeheartedly agree with you. That's why I wrote that part about hearing the SNS hook up prior to heading out to RC and hearing vpw's voice like he had just had a stroke. We were shocked and concerned. But when we also asked about his health out on the field, we were just told "I dunno" with a shrug from our leaders.
And though we were asked by John to pray and were told vpw was deathly ill, his remarks were always brief and certainly not open to discussion.
I think by that time, there was such an exclusionary air within the ministry with most people being on a "need to know" basis and anything that dealt with poor health being viewed as "negative" to discuss, that it wouldn't even "occur" to us at that time to talk about it much. Even talking casually with him, it was just not the kind of thing you'd probably ask him - - "by the way, how are you feeling today??" as odd as that may seem today.
Your quote:
And I don't know either.
J.
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HCW
Yeah Thanks Jard. You jogged some memories for me too. Haven't thought about this stuff for ages.
And for the record signals
:)--> K.I.S.S. for me was my handle way back in the Trancechat day. I chose it because there was a l-o-t, LOT of craziness flyin' round the threads then. I felt we could use a reminder of the "old" sayin' Keep It Simple Stupid.
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WeWereScammed
Help me understand this. . .
1 - The airbag is weak, ill and dying.
2 - He has had a stroke.
3 - He has had one eye removed.
4 - Reportedly he is being shunned by LCM and
others at the mighty HQ. His input is no
longer regarded as needed.
So what does he do?
Bedside manners,pajama nights, sex, films
of lesbians and dogs.
Did this guy ever have a sane, logical thought in his life. What a goofball.
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HCW
No. BTW. I'm not calling anybody here at the Cafe stupid.
In terms of fillin' in some pieces.... There were massive power struggles goin' on all over the ministry. More than a few of the tip top leadership folks were less than impressed with LCM being president. He didn't have the respect and was unable to earn the level of respect VP had.
Speaking of work, VP had worked basically every aspect of the ministry at one point in time and had, as the ministry grew, turned over different aspects of it to anyone who'd proven to him they could handle it. He'd give you an opportunity to show him you knew what you were doing and if you did, he was cool with you. If you acted like you knew what you were doing and "blew it," he wouldn't trust you very far.
The quickest, easiest way to get in VP's good graces was to show you had a strong, solid work ethic. He felt that the way a person worked was the best indicator of their character, especially how you'd handle yourself when the work was in any way hard, especially when you got tired ot you didn't like the work you were doing. If you did your best, he'd love it even if you messed up. He'd say, "Well, you've got heart."
"Heart" and a basic ability & desire to work were more important to VP than "professional credentials." It was Don W. who felt precisely the opposite. VP believed you could take a person with "a heart for God and a desire to work & learn" and teach them the work of the ministry. Donnie believed you could take a trained professional in doing the work and teach them the word. The two, father & son had completely antithetical POV's on basically everything. I was actually closer, friendship wise w/Donnie than VP. My relationship w/VP was more like student/mentor. At times visiting with each of them, they would talk about the other & their differences when it came to ministry philosophy.
Personally, I believe that a lot of VP's disfunction was a result of the riff between Donnie & himself. But that's another story.
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WeWereScammed
Gee, I'd just hate to have lost his trust.
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Mike
HCW,
I want to thank you again for your testimony here, especially in that long post two days ago.
One of the reasons I've delayed engaging you on the relatively few points in which we disagree is because I admire so much the detail you remember and proclaim where you and I are in complete agreement.
You help a lot of people here shake off the emotions and get back to the facts, those who WANT to that is.
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Mike
Linda Z,
Thank you too for your report where you wrote:
"Whether there's a spiritual component to some cancers I don't know, but I checked my AC notes awhile back when this came up to see what was taught--at least the year I was there. VPW didn't teach that someone had to be possessed to get cancer; he taught that the disease is caused by a devil spirit. There's a difference. Again, I don't know if it's true, but that's what was taught when I sat through the class."
Like cancer, I've often thought that smoking and homosesxuality were "caused" by devil spirits, yet I never thought that everyone who gets sucked into them is possessed.
Dang! Any deadly bacterium has "life in itself" but no one thought it was a devil spirit!
This (cancer = ds) idea is just one more item where students got only half the story and then went on to make up the other half.
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WeWereScammed
Does anyone have any "AC notes" about how to discern a SCAM?
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Mike
Yes.
Hear the WHOLE story right, as a diligent student, and then you won't be scammed.
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WeWereScammed
If, after twenty-five years in Twitland, I did not hear the WHOLE story, then the WHOLE story is not too convincing.
You cannot judge my level of diligence in this regard.
Your idol, lord and saviour VPW was a scam.
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Mike
WWS,
I can judge collective diligence.
And if you and I were to get down and discuss a few pages worth of posts, I'm sure your individual lack of diligence would proclaim itself.
Mere attendance is not diligence. We ALL lacked diligence in getting the story right and getting it all. We ALL rested on our laurels of past successes, and the verbal traditions that proliferated at TWI became our doctrines.
Attendance at TWI, especially in the later 70's and early 80's meant being exposed to many TVTs (Twi Verbal traditions) and these prevented many from getting the whole accurate story.
God's story is big, yet many miss it.
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WeWereScammed
OH! So that's what happened.
Now I understand.
God bless - You're the best!
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jardinero
oh PUH-lease!!!! Give it a rest Mike.
You're free to climb back under your mushroom, but leave us the hell alone. Been there done that, and we're not interested in the crap you're selling.
God is much bigger than the hype you idolize. So take your cult somewhere else.
J.
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Mike
WWS,
Of course you don't really understand.
True understanding only will come for those grads who return to PFAL and see what they missed. THEN you'll understand.
****
And jardinero, you can close your eyes to what really happened back then all you want. Of course, when the facts are re-presented you'll have to close them again.
I'm not hyping a cult, just reminding us all that we didn't get the facts right when they were offered to us, nor the truths.
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tonto
Wow Jardi,
I had forgotten a lot of the details until you mentioned them, but your posts are true. I checked with hubs and he didn't have anything to add, except for when Jo* Ri**ardi called out during the dog/porno flick "Lord I have a beagle inside", which certainly brought comic relief to that awkwardly painful moment. (There was a ministry song at the time called "Lord I Have an Eagle Inside"...I guess you had to be there).
I don't remember the specifics of learning about the melanoma but it seems that we knew about it before we left the way on our "practicum" year.
One of those work days we were tearing down a shed. For some reason I ended up hanging out and talking with Pete the motorcoach driver, who voiced concern when he realized that VP was late in getting his medicine. I wanted to ask him what he was taking and why but of course I didn't. I had learned long before not to ask questions...
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WeWereScammed
How did we miss anything since it "separated truth from error".
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alfakat
Mikey ...DD,SS, eh???
thank God we have YOU to tell about how diligent YOU ARE and how WE aren't.... Mike, you are the most self-centered, pompous gas bag I have EVER met....
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Mike
alfakat,
I don't think we ever have met.
I too lacked the diligence I speak of here back then. To this I have admitted often. You glossed over those admissions.
Even now, I must drive myself daily to read things I "think" I already know enough about. My diligence wanes at times.
I'm not preaching myself as a master of diligence here, merely pointing out that most of our problems were self-inflicted due to our "kicking back" in the study department. This is a very human trait that we ALL suffer from. Drifting from the True God through a lack of diligence is an oft repeated scenario in the Bible, starting with Eve. Over and over the "golden calf syndrome" is documented in the history of Israel, and the first century church.
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alfakat
mike of course we have "met"...right here at gsc. in all of your over 4000 posts, of which I am quite confident I have read a good 90% at least...
but, Mike, YOU set YOURSELF up as the judge of ALL others here and their "diligence" (sic)...or you don't recognize or acknowledge that???!!??
Mike, I am on this thread to keep you honest...ya know, take some of the excess gas outa your bag....
-->
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