Recruitment tools

[WordWolf]

Ok, here's what I said.

[twi was set up from the top bosses.

The top bosses decided what to do.

The top bosses set up a marketing scheme.

The top boss himself ripped off quality work from others,

slapped a new label on it,

and claimed it was HIS work and it was the result of

his special connection with God since he was so special.

Based on THIS cornerstone deception,

he built the organization of twi.

He and a handful of others knew this was all wrong,

and did it anyway.

They were bad men doing bad things.

Then genuine godly people like Heefner and Doop and

many others came along.

They were tricked into thinking he had a special connection

with God and that all that was HIS work when it wasn't.

So, they recruited people into his organization.

Were they participants with less than perfect motives?

NO, THEY had completely PURE motives.

Does that mean everyone had pure motives?

NO,

the Lords over God's Heritage were bad men.

THOSE men did not have good motives.

Believers here and there tried to bless others.

The ORGANIZATION tried to get their money.

Was that simple enough?

I'm insulting the tiny handful at the TOP who were

involved for year and years,

not the vast majority BELOW them...]

========

So,

Oldiesman skipped most of what I said,

and commented on this comment:

[He and a handful of others knew this was all wrong,

and did it anyway. They were bad men doing bad things.]

Oldies' reply:

"WordWolf, that is your distorted, corrupted, one-sided, evil-surmising,

tunnel-vision view of things that I do not share with you.

I guess you really must think that you are God, the Searcher

of all hearts?"

So, I reply to this...

[No, Oldies, I still don't think I'm God nor the Searcher of

all hearts.

I AM able to tell what's in the heart of someone based on their

ACTIONS, and it is their ACTIONS I judge.

As to the long list of insults to my view of things, let's see who

is tracking reality properly.

I said

"twi was set up from the top bosses. The top bosses decided what to do."

That, I expect, is "by definition" and is not in dispute.

"The top bosses set up a marketing scheme."

pfal was specifically set up as a business.

Everyone was expected to pay RETAIL for pfal and take it,

live or later on tape.

All twig members were expected to be graduates of all the

classes within a reasonable time after they were

'made available'.

All twig members were expected to own all the twi-produced

books within a reasonable time after they were

'made available.' (And charged RETAIL for.)

All twig members were expected to pay a MINIMUM of

10% of their income-the tithe- and later, to

'abundantly share' above that.

Have you EVER heard of any OTHER group that even

SUGGESTED giving them ALL your money beyond

survival? twi had a NAME for it, which means they

had a DOCTRINE for it.

That they did this is now largely a matter of public record.

That it is wrong is evident to most unbiased people.

That they KNEW what they were doing should not really

be under dispute. They were adults and made adult

decisions regarding money, policy, and so on,

and arranged policy to maximize MONEY.

That this is WRONG should really not be news to a

Christian. That THEY knew it was wrong should also

not be news. They chose to do things they knew to be

bad.

Therefore, 'bad men doing bad things.]

So far, looks like I have a case supporting my claims.

So far, looks like Oldies has a tantrum and some

insults "supporting" his claims.

=========

I also said this:

["The top boss himself ripped off quality work from others,

slapped a new label on it,

and claimed it was HIS work and it was the result of his

special connection with God since he was so special.

Based on THIS cornerstone deception, he built the

organization of twi."]

Oldies replied:

"Balderdash.

Whether or not VP had a special connection with God, VP told us that his stuff was not original, so you are just blowing smoke again."

======

So, I reply again....

[vpw's "ministry" was totally unremarkable

until he took BG Leonard's CTC class twice,

the second time, with several other people taking

it the first time.

Three months later, vpw told BG Leonard he would

be running his (BG Leonard's) class for his

congregation once on a one-time basis,

getting BG Leonard's permission to do so.

vpw sent Leonard a photograph of the graduating

class for his photo album.

Meanwhile, that SAME class, he told the STUDENTS

that this was his OWN class on

"Power for Abundant Living."

He NEVER announced

"this is BG Leonard's class which I'm just

reciting because videotapes haven't been invented

yet."

Its contents were 100% Leonard's class from 3

months ago.

Over time, he added material from books by

JE Stiles and EW Bullinger.

At no point did he actually say

"this material on the holy spirit field, it is

a compilation of the work of Leonard,

Stiles, and Bullinger,

which I have done my best to improve upon."

If he had said exactly that, I would have NO

complaint of this type.

Anyone reading the introduction/preface

to the Orange or White Books would read

an intro saying vpw found other Christians

useless in his searches for knowledge,

and he made these "discoveries" on his own.

Compared to all of that, a few off-the-cuff

comments that what he did wasn't original

(rather than cite very SPECIFIC sourcebooks

and one class) hardly counts.

It SUGGESTS he picked up things here and there,

not entire chapters and sessions from a very few

number of sources. Since we've discussed the

plagiarism issue for months and months, it is

disingenuous-to say the least-to pretend ignorance

of the SPECIFIC charges.

Given that there are rather specific specifics,

especially the "genesis" of the first pfal class

(plagiarizing 100% of Leonard's class,

changing only the teacher and class name),

it should be obvious to most people

(other than Oldies) that this is far more than

"blowing smoke",

it would have been an open-and-shut case if

Leonard had exercised his legal options

rather than letting it go.

=============

Again, my comments on Heefner and Doop

(and many, many others) were:

"Then genuine, godly people like Heefner and Doop and many

others came along. They were tricked into thinking he had a

special connection with God and that all that was HIS work when

it wasn't. So they recruited people into his organization.

Were they participants with less than perfect motives?

NO, THEY had completely PURE motives.

Believers here and there tried to bless others."]

Oldies reply to this?

"Did it ever occur to you that maybe folks like Heefner and Doop and so many others

who recruited folks into twi, did it not because of VP's perceived special connection

with God, or because they thought VP was so great, or even because of VP AT ALL;

but because they honestly wanted folks to be blessed and come to a greater

knowledge of the truth, just like they had?"

Now,

anyone ELSE who read my comments should have

no need of a reply.

They "tried to bless others",

they "had pure motives",

they were "genuine, godly people."

Obviously, the reason they fell for vp's deception WAS that

they wanted to serve God the best they could.

They were tricked into thinking that was with vpw's class.

(DUUUUUUUUHHHH.)]

Oldies continued:

"Lots of ex-twi folks bear witness to the fact that they learned many truths in twi,

and wanted to share them."

[DUUUUHHH.

Leonard, Stiles and Bullinger knew their stuff.

If the CONTENT wasn't good, the deception would have

fooled nobody.]

"Nothing wrong with that..."

[somebody said there WAS?

THEY were fine.

Might try reading my posts...]

"It is an insult to the entire family of God, who wanted to move the Word

over the world and bless folks with the word of God, whether they were on the BOT,

or a leaf on the tree."

[Actually,

what's an insult to them is that you continually lump

in those with godly intentions doing the best they can,

with the handful who acted for filthy lucre's sake.

THAT's a "universal blanket insult."]

================

Of course,

all of the name-calling is to distract from this:

THERE we have it.

THERE's the reason for the complete distortion of what was said.

Oldies spent time in the wow program,

Oldies spent time in twi,

and was unwittingly engaged in their programs of

deceit, MLM and money-grubbing.

Oldies never MEANT to do anything other than glorify God,

but twi deceived him and he ended up doing something else.

Rather than blame THEM for their deceit,

and living wiser and warier,

Oldies refuses to admit there was ever any problem-

which means Oldies NEVER did anything less than pristine.

Bravo, Oldies! You've succeeded in keeping white gloves

spotless while blood spattered on the others....]

[oldiesman]

Victims of enforced dependency have been subjected to non-consented thought reform processes.

The thought reform processes we were subjected to in twi were entirely consensual.

For instance, an example of consensual godly submission, which may lead to thought reform, might be the following:

1Pe 5:5 Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all [of you]be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

Folks decided to do that, when folks decided to do the Word.

It was an individual decision based upon knowledge and religious belief.

Those who did not give their consent, soon exited, whether it was a twi program, or simple twig.

TWI, right or wrong, was and is based upon consent of the individual.

There are exceptions: children, mentally ill folks, and those who were narcotized.

Non-consented thought reform sounds to me like people being kidnapped and brainwashed in an environment that they cannot escape from.

When I read Jkboehme's "stuff", this is the impression I get.

[jkboehme]

Why OM, I'm almost a-Pauled, re-Petered, & even Silas-ened!

When the high demand group, viz., TWI, has a strategic covert agenda, nothing offered by them is consensual, but rather is non-consented, non-disclosed, & purposefully concealed.

It is typically called lying, bait & switch, misrepresentation, fraudulent misrepresentation, etc.

[oldiesman]

Well that is your spin.

Others have said they were thankful for their twi involvement, myself included.

[justloafing]

Well that is your spin.

Others have said they were thankful for their twi involvement, myself included.

I agree that a lot of people were thankful. How thankful do you think they would have been if they knew what was going on at the top of twi? Not all holy and pure. Far from it. I know Oldies you saw some of the stuff that was going on just from reading your posts. When a sliver of the corruption was exposed people saw that and fled in great numbers. They wern't blessed anymore.

It took them (twi) that long to be exposed. My guess is if everything was exposed about twi 30 years earlier there would not have been as many people involved and thankful nor abused in any number of ways. Sort of like now how people are not flocking to that corn field cult in Ohio. Some of the truth is out their about twi and people hate what they stand for.

[oldiesman]

How thankful do you think they would have been if they knew what was going on at the top of twi?

I would imagine it would be a mixed bag, just like it is for lots of folks today.

Many are thankful for their involvement, but appalled at Wierwille's & others sins.

Best advice I would offer is to eat the fish, and spit out the bones.

[rascal]

Wierwilles sins disqualify him as a leader of any sort in a Christian group.....according to scriptures he was a FRAUD!

You are NOT a leader if you did what he did......just a wannabee

[justloafing]

I would imagine it would be a mixed bag, just like it is for lots of folks today.

Many are thankful for their involvement, but appalled at Wierwille's & others sins.

Your right Oldies and I agree with you to a point. I just know what happened when a couple of things where exposed. A mixed bag? Yes some stayed but most left either if it was POP or the exposure of lcm's "carrying on's". twi was exposed for what it is. People would not put up with it.

They (twi leaders) could not live up to what they wanted us to be. For those that took it (twi doctrine) to heart and lived it were so much better in Gods eyes JMHO. I can just about bet that, using lcm's lingo..........God would not bother "spitting" at twi leaderships direction. That is how worthless they were and still are.

Edited December 21, 2005 by justloafing

[oldiesman]

Wierwilles sins disqualify him as a leader of any sort in a Christian group.....according to scriptures he was a FRAUD!

You are NOT a leader if you did what he did......just a wannabee

*snort*

Saul and David were murderers.

Solomon was an idolatrous sex addict.

Apparently their sins did not disqualify them, so I surmise VP's sins did not disqualify him from teaching God's Word.

And judging from the response, many many folks were blessed from God and thankful for their involvement in twi, despite Viervilles sins.

Happy Ho Ho Relo Countdown -- 4 days :D

[Belle]

Is your sister going on Ho Ho Relo, OM? What's her assignment this year?

[rascal]

Their sins WOULD have had they NOT repented.... big diff ...you are leaving out a very necessary part of the history oldies.

vp and twi never repented....A necessary requirement according to the scriptures.

As it was.... their actions are discribed scripturally as dangerous and harmfull...and we are told to eschew such as these.

It is the difference between the genuine and the counterfit.....the real deal and a wanna be.

Edited December 21, 2005 by rascal

[oldiesman]

*snort*

God in his foreknowledge knew that all these men were BIG sinners, yet he worked with them anyway.

Their sins did not disqualify them from God working with them, as per your opinion.

[justloafing]

*snort*

God in his foreknowledge knew that all these men were BIG sinners, yet he worked with them anyway.

And so did god

[Belle]

And so did god

*snort*

[oldiesman]

Belle have you taken me off ignore?

[rascal]

The actions of vpw are clearly labled in the scriptures as those of a false prophet......not someone that God worked within.

The fact that you can ignore the clear instructions and warnings given for our benefit in the scriptures....is a testament to how effective his ability to mislead.

[Belle]

Deleted -- Mentioning a relative of a poster

Edited December 21, 2005 by pawtucket

[oldiesman]

Belle, please email me privately at oldiesmanpics@aol.com, and I will give you an answer to the above.

[WordWolf]

One more thread discussing the MLM connection...