Has it occured to anyone here that forgiving someone is a sort of "dying to self?"
I mean, Peter asked Jesus how many times he should forgive a person (presumably for the same offense - but I could be wrong here.) Jesus answers "seventy times seven." WOW?
Think about it:
John calls Peter "Pebbles" and Peter gets hurt. He tells John and John asks for forgiveness. "Sure." "Fine, Thanks." They both go on their merry way.
Same thing happens the next day. This time Pete is taken aback and reminds John. John says, "Oh yea - I forgot. Forgive me?"
And so on and so on - 489 TIMES!!!!!
Well by the end of this if I were Pete I'd be questoning ole Johhny boy's sincerity and whether or not he is really repentant. In fact, I'd be wondering to myself if after every time John asks for forgiveness and Pete-y boy says, "Well, OK." if John doesn't go away snickering to himself "S U C K E R!!!"
I see here the recipe for dying to self. To forget about youself, your ego, your feelings and seek the higher plane that God calls us to.
O also see in the "Condemn not lest.." scriptures a warning from God. I have found that when I am at my most judgemental (and I do get that way) people all around me start to hold me to my own standards.
Now I'm not talking about any stiuation in general. I'm not demanding that anyone forgive anyone. I'm not laying out some "threat" that something bad will happen if you don't forgive. I'm just laying things out in the way I have dealt with forgiveness in my life. I've had a lot to work through - and NOT with TWI. I've got a scar on my upper thigh that is 18" long that I got when I was 12 because my stepmother was afraid that I didn't like her and my Dad didn't want to "rock the boat." That's just the beginning. I'm not getting into my whole story. But I have found that forgiveness really is very freeing. It really doesn't release the offender - it releases YOU the forgiver. The offender still has to either deal with guilt, or hardness of heart and that has it's own special reward - and it ain't pretty folks - I've seen it in others and it sux.
The section from Matthew 5/Luke 6 are part of larger sermon. This sermon begins at Matt 5:1 (the Sermon on the Mount) and at Luk 6:17 (Sermon on the Plain). To really understand these verses, you really need to analyze each of the sermons as a unit and then to interpret the verses within the context of the sermons within which they are located. Otherwise, taken out of context, they can be twisted to mean what we'd like them to mean.
The Sermon on the Mount does a couple of things:
- It expounds at length on the characteristics of those "beati" -- blessed (from which the term "Beatitudes" has its origin). If we look at these characteristics as a set, we see a call to a radical abandonment of mental and physical attraction to the material and the temporal. With a little thought, I am confident that you can find examples both in the gospels and in the Pauline epistles that parallel this call, so I won't waste your (or my) time in showing the specific verses (of course I can if requested, I just don't think it necessary).
- It then gives specific examples of behaviors that exemplify those characteristics: essentially a call to radical love that comes when the law is truly written on the heart and comes from within, as opposed to a mere external, behavioral observance of that law (cf Ps 40:7-8)
The Sermon on the Plain states the same but also adds the three woes upon those who are living for the material and for the temporal.
Taken within its proper context, the phrase "forgive, and ye shall be forgiven" is simply a component of this radical love and abandonment of the temporal/material that is a part of Jesus' overall message...
It's a very similar call like the one given to the rich man to sell all he had, and for us to take up our crosses. It's a different, foreign mindset to the one with which we've been raised. Temporally, it makes no sense. Looked at from an "eternal" perspective, there's no other way that does make sense.
The famous midieval philosopher, St. Thomas Aquinas, had an interesting way of saying this: "To love is to will the good of another" (cf: Summa II.I.28.3 and II.II.25.6).
But, I happen to live in the world of relationships with other humans. And I would really like to be the best human I can be. (Blame catechism, I'm telling ya, it STICKS.)
So, idealism and spiritual aspirations aside, I gotta get along with people in my world, and make a contribution that matters.
Somehow, someway, being locked in a bedroom with some important somebody, high and mighty rev, taking his shirt off and asking me to give him a backrub while offering me a beer, doesn't seem like it's even worth talking about.
But......in the context of forgiving.....I know many of us have suffered much worse.
Thank you for your transparency, and sharing so much of yourself.
God made it simple: even as Christ forgave me, so I do Lcm.
Well said Oldies. Jesus forgave those who crucified him, and if he can do that, then I can at least forgive LCM, VPW, DEW, HRA (Howard "R" Allen?"), and all the rest. I want to be bigger than them. I want to "not be overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good" (Romans 12: last verse). Forgive 'em and walk on. "Walking in the newness of Life". Leave the past behind. Go to new heights with our Heavanny Father, and dump the negs of the past. Take the good that you learned, and jettison that which wasn't good. Very simple. Very basic.
I really only say this to you all because I LOVE YOU! I am not just trying to win an argument. I simply know that "forgiving those who have trespassed against you" is the way to peace and joy, and an exit from the bitterness! Let it go! Shoot, all those who tresspassed against us have to face The Almighty One, and believe me, I am thankful that I won't have to "own up to as much" as those whom we know who have hurt us so. Or, will I? Or will you? Will you have to face The Almighty for your wrongs? In my opinion, I think I would rather follow Jesus's line of thinking, and "forgive those who have trespassed against us", for I know that I certainly am not perfect.........................................................................
Ok, Johnny, I get your message. Any tips on HOW? Anybody whose a Christian, or maybe just a pedestrian passing through, needs to forgive those who have sinned against us.
Ex10 I understand what you're asking and I think Mark's idea of "putting it away" is what you do. (I'm speaking in general terms, I didn't mean you specifically.)
We cannot control our enemies actions, but we can control our responses. They scream and shout in arguments, and we "detach" a bit and speak quietly not getting caught up in the emotion. We don't "hate them back"...our response is neutral.
It's not always easy. I know that from personal experience I had with my brother. He wanted to get his hands on our parent's bank accounts - - divide it up among the grandchildren - and put them in a nursing home on medicare....destitute as it were. I made a promise to my mother and he berated me for keeping it....because "she's a dead woman - you don't have to keep it". It was a nightmare until finally I had to stop when he engaged me and put it all to the lawyers. It could have literally killed me I was so angry at his behavior and his actions toward me. He did all he could to get me in trouble with IRS too.
With some help, I finally decided I had to put the whole thing away from me and so I did. Because his lawyer couldn't get me on anything...my brother tried to pull more hate stuff, but caller ID is a miracle.
I finally realized he didn't know what was right, he was just greedy, and I had to keep us apart. I forgave him.....meaning I realized he could not and never would see the right thing to do, and I wasn't going to allow him to drag me into his whirlpool where he could drown me. He can be violent and he is very big. 6'4"/280 lbs. He has hurt me before and he could do it again.
It doesn't mean I don't think about him. I even remember the fights we had but the sting is gone and the anger. I miss my brother. He is all I have left of natural family. I don't hurt, my heart is light and that's the end of that.
Will he have to answer to God? I don't know. I have forgiven him but I will never trust him again. I think this is forgiveness with no reconciliation.
I happen to live in the world of relationships with other humans. And I would really like to be the best human I can be. (Blame catechism, I'm telling ya, it STICKS.)
So, idealism and spiritual aspirations aside, I gotta get along with people in my world, and make a contribution that matters.
Can you translate?
Then you asked Jonny,
Just how might one go about it?
First, a caveat: I am not at the beginning of my journey and I am far from the end. But I can see the path that is hewn for me.
In answer to your first question, there's no 'cost' to developing a Christ-like attitude toward your fellow human being. There IS a cost of pride. There IS a cost in time and hard work. But there is hardly a cost of money, at least one that you'd miss when it's all said and done. There are some people who are called to a vocation of voluntary poverty, there are some who are called to the life of a hermit, there are some who are called to a vocation of a friar, but those who are also called to witness the life of Christ in our families and within society.
As the apostle asked, Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? The answer is clear: God arranged the organs in the body, each one of them, as he chose. Although we may not be called to live the life of total abandonment in a religious life, there is no reason why we cannot develop Christ-like internal attitudes while in our current station and exemplify those attitudes with our spouses, our children, our co-workers, and the people with whom we come in contact.
Let me repeat my caveat (in different terms): I am not perfect. I am a long way off from being perfect. Yada Yada.
How? There may be a number of different ways to get from point 'a' to point 'b', the way that has worked for me is basically a reliance on scriptures as the standard using Catholic spirituality (specifically an Ignatian technique) as the method.
I know you used to be Catholic, so you're probably already familiar with what I'm saying, so I won't waste either of our time with that. Keep in mind that a lot of the methods used in Catholic spirituality would and should apply to any Christian, even if they reject some of Catholic dogma.
Dooj read the rest of that verse instead of just quoting part of it.......it SAYS *and when he REPENTS* to forgive him 70x7 it really does!
That is precisesly what I am talking about....why does everybody want to ignore THAT part of the instructions???
I don`t know why we feel like we have to alter the way God says to do it...
I think that forgiveness required is contingent upon that one little caveat.
Maybe we can ASK God to forgive them because like Jesus when he said at his crucifixion that *they know not what they do* (though I think that they did) But then again...I didn`t see him saying *I* personally forgive you there either...it seeems that even HE had to ask God on their behalf ....
God doesn`t forgive UNTILL we repent and ask... he doesn`t ask us to forgive our bother 70x7 UNTILL they repent....Further more when we are instructed that when we sin we are REQUIRED to apologise AND make resitution.
He did say to pray for them who despitefully use you.....ok that I can handle... guess that I feel that decades of heartfelt prayer from tens of thousands of believers didn`t alter their evil course ...maybe I feel like they have had their quota from me ....
If we have to wait for someone to repent so that we can enjoy the blessings of peace that comes with forgiving someone who has wronged us, then with the matter of VPW, we will, for the rest of our lives never enjoy that peace that comes with forgiving him, because he is DEAD.
Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offenses will come: but woe unto him , through whom they come!
It were better for him that a millstone werehanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.
Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying I repent; thou shalt forgive him.
The next verse reads: "And the apostles said unto theLord, Increase our faith." and starts a new topic so I didnt' quote it.
Now I didn't quote the similiar section in Matthew I just referred to it so her it is for you rascal:
Matt 18:18-35 is the whole section but I won't quote the all impertant parable in the latter 12 verses - I assume everyone has a Bible and can look it up - and it has already been handled expertly by Mark.
Matt 18:18-22
Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my father which is in heaven.
For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in themidst of them.
Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
Jesus saith unto him. I say not unto thee , Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
Therefore is the kindom of heaven likened unto a certain king...
Rascal - That is all that I have in my Bible for both sections. Do you have a version that reads differently?
There is no mention of repentance in this second section of scripture, ( although to be fair it is implied in the parable which follows) which IMHO, is Jesus's telling Peter not to just do what the standard for the day was - but to go WAY WAY overboard with forgiveness - but I did make the point that John (in my little story) repented - all 70 times seven - please go back and read it.
My point is that after all those 490 times isn't it tempting to doubt whether or not someone has truly repented? I mean come on.....
And - I have found many more verses that do not count repentance as a prerequisite for forgiveness. I did not quote all that I found but I figured that you would be willing to quote me your list. I'll keep looking - as a matter of fact i was looking tosee if I could find more verses that would support your point of view...and I'll continue - I believe in honest research. I'll continue and post as I find stuff -
Not wanting to fight here. I think that if we met on the street and talked we would like each other and maybe even respect each other - but agree to disagree on this point.
I don't mind being proved wrong - but I honestly did not find tons and tons of verses that say that repentance must preceed forgiveness. I did see that if someone asks for forgiveness we are to forgive. I did see where an offender is supposed to repent. But I also saw many, many, many, more times where forgiveness was offered without being asked for.
So again - do you have to forgive without repentance? - No. Can you? Yes. Will you? Apparently not - according to what you have said - and that's fine with me.
I hope that you don`t think I am fighting.....Like most here, I am searching/evaluating/considering.
After nearly a life time of doing what people say *I oughtta* just because they think that it is a good idea ......with at times tragic results.....being forced into unGodly actions by a spiritual bully wielding bible verses....having to submit to unGodly treatment because of misapplied or poorly understood scriptures....I have gotten a bit muleish in my old age...
I tend to dig in my heels untill I understand fully. There will be no more going against my better judgement putting things on the *back burner* so to speak.
If we have to wait for someone to repent so that we can enjoy the blessings of peace that comes with forgiving someone who has wronged us, then with the matter of VPW, we will, for the rest of our lives never enjoy that peace that comes with forgiving him, because he is DEAD.
Let it go...
Speaking only for myself, I have peace in my life whether or not I "forgive" VPW, LCM, or some other icon of the Way experience.
My happiness is not a function of forgiving someone at all. I reject the characterization that if one doesn't actively forgive another
then one must be full of rage and isn't at peace. In my experience that simply isn't true. There are people who have wronged me and I simply don't think about them. At this moment I might think of them because of the context but thats it. Yes. There are people whom I hope reap the consequences of their actions but I don't make it my life's mission to carry anger inside.
I know people who claim to have forgiven someone else yet they still harbor negative feelings towards the person whom they allegedly forgave. As the kids like to say "whassup with that ?". Forgiveness between humans isn't some magic recipe for peaceful living. In my life the ONLY forgiveness that matters is that which God gave us. I certainly see the value in forgiving in another - that way two people can cultivate a better relationship and put aside the deeds of the past. And that can only happen at the right time. When both are ready. But , again, in my experience, those who are desperately seeking to be forgiven are typically just wanting to get off the hook for some past misdeed. I imagine lots of former Way leaders want to be forgiven but they'll have to do more than just ask for it as far as I'm concerned.
Speaking in general here. I wonder how many people here would forgive a man who murdered their best friend or a family member. Or forgive a man who physically assaulted one of your children or spouse. I think that those who are preaching the
forgive and forget approach would have a problem in these cases. But to deviate from that approach would be wrong - assumming one holds fast the "forgive and forget" concept. My point is that we can talk all week about whether or not LCM or VPW should be forgiven but if you attempt to generalize the idea to other situations , like those mentioned above, then it doesn't seem to extend so well now does it ?
We can get on and move on with our lives happily and peacefully IN SPITE of not forgiving people who has done us a lot of harm.
I am perfectly happy as the TWI scums don't play any role in my life. Will I forgive them? YEAH... RIGHT!
Will I forgive the last BC, TC and LC that I had? YEAH...RIGHT.
Will I lose sleep over not forgiving them? YEAH...RIGHT.
Will I wish them the best? YEAH...RIGHT.
Like many of us here, I am much better off without the TWI... 10 years later.
To me, the best way to get back at them is showing and let them know how succesful we are without them and that we are "blessed more abundantly" (how I hate that term) without them.
In their sick minds, they say that our success and "abundant blessing" is "work of the adversary".
I love to let them know that...YES, it is work of the adversary... the adversary of the TWI ministry... NOT the adversary of God.
And that's the beautiful thing about GSC. This is not a cult. We don't all have to agree on our beliefs, our spirituality, or any other thing. Hopefully we can be respectful in our disagreement and allow our fellow greasespotters the freedom to practice their spirituality (or lack thereof) in the fashion they choose. But one way or the other, nobody is going to M&A you for disagreeing on a theological point. (Unless Paw changes the site's rules in the future LOL).
Yeah n I I don`t have to feel less spiritual or disapointing to God when I disagree with the satus quo either :)
FreeFromCults...lol my friend says it THIS way...and I have adopted her mantra to be mine as well...
*Living well IS the best revenge*!
Let em gnash their teeth and froth at the mouth ... making excuses for why our lives give EVERY indication of God`s hand of blessing and prosperity in our lives....They have to have SOMETHING to blame their misery on.
Exactly guys. I was trying to figure out how to put it myself. It is nothing that wrenches my gut any more. I have basically left them by the way side. Why I do talk so bad about them on here is because of the pain and suffering they have put so many through and to this day people are suffering, that I do know for a fact. The last reason I do not have anything nice to say about them is I hope just hope someone may read and decide to get out or not go in.
Well, as an example, there is a guy in this town from whom we rented back in 1993/94. He was out of town for six months with his wife, and so we rented from him even though he was actually renting it from the owner. I believe this is called "sub-letting". At any rate, we had just arrived back in Alaska, and with housing really tight here, we were happy to find that place. And so, we payed the $1500.00 for the first month, a $600.00 dollar cleaning deposit, and moved in. We paid our rent on time the whole six months, and cleaned the house from top to bottom before we moved out, and he and his wife moved back in. And I mean to say we cleaned that place very well. I even got out my "Real Clean Windows" window cleaning gear and cleaned the huge tall glass windows that looked out upon the lovely Auke Lake. We knew that they would no doubt be very happy with how we had kept the place, and returned it to him so nice and cared for. As nomadic Ex-Wayfers, we had a large string of very good references on file, and this was to us, another very nicely kept home which we had rented, and returned to the folks who we rented from.
And so, when the guy inspected the place, he told us that it wasn't clean enough, and that we would not be getting our $6 hundy back. And, I was furious! He may as well have stuck a revolver in my face and said "give me that six hundred or I'll blow your head off". We even talked to the owner from whom this guy was renting, but he said that it was not his problem. We didn't seem to find a way to get our money back, and so, we "walked on'. But did I forgive him then? No friggin way. Over the years, if I were driving by his house late at night I'd stop and blast my aoogah horn until his bedroom light came on. I spoke disparagingly of him and with a vengeance, if the subject of "living on back loop road" came up in conversation. I used to drive by his tree nursery over next to the Safeway and curse his business. I wanted to "fork him" (plant hundreds of plastic forks in the lawn in front of his business-a way of saying; "Fork you!") something my son and friends did to a high school principal one time. I was just sooo *%^#*ed that this guy had stolen from me and my family. It was a violation, and he was so wrong about the way we left that house. But of course, he just wanted the deposit money, and said anything he wanted to. It was weird, this guy was like "the one guy I would not forgive". My own personal "one guy I wasn't letting off the hook" or whatever.
But, my wife began to tire of hearing me rant over "Dave that s.o.b. who ripped us off", and I finally decided that I should do as Jesus has asked us to do, for, how could I forgive those in TWI who wronged us, but not this guy? And so, what action did I take? Well, I asked God to forgive me for holding such a long grudge, and I asked Him to reverse any curses I put on him and his business, and asked God to help to open his eyes so that maybe one day he would see how dishonest he was (and is-his reputation as a business man is one of dishonesty over money-no surprise there) so that he could then change. And in my heart I forgave him and have moved on. I just figured that he was the one who has to live with himself. He'll reap what he sowed.
And now, when I drive by his business and the knee jerk reaction to thinking badly of him comes up, I just say out loud, "God I have forgiven that guy. You help him if you can". And I smile, and I drive on. And it has been really fun. Kind of like a very recent project as a matter of fact. "An exercise in forgiveness" if you will.
I just started reading a book called "Turning Curses To Blessings" by Carl Fox, a one time Way guy. The forward in the book was written by one Paul Norcross whom we both know. And the book has a lot to do with the words that come out of our mouths. And so, I am practicing to try and "bless" others with the words from my mouth as opposed to cursing them. It's a great book EX 10. In fact, if you look up Carl Fox on the net, you can read the first few chapters and the fwd by Paul Norcross> In fact, maybe I can post the website here:
But , again, in my experience, those who are desperately seeking to be forgiven are typically just wanting to get off the hook for some past misdeed. I imagine lots of former Way leaders want to be forgiven but they'll have to do more than just ask for it as far as I'm concerned
So then what is all this talk about the person asking for forgiveness. I might be reading this wrong, but it seems as if a person doesn't ask for forgiveness and repent - well then he doesn't get forgiven. OTOH evev if he asks well "No way Jose" because he's too anxious for it. Or maybe because he wants is too badly? Huh??
Doesn't it seem like God is asking us - or telling us - to forgive and let Him sort things out? That releases you from the resposiblity of figuring out if the perp has truly repented. ( Seventy times seven! doesn't that seem like a lot to you???)
Speaking in general here. I wonder how many people here would forgive a man who murdered their best friend or a family member. Or forgive a man who physically assaulted one of your children or spouse. I think that those who are preaching the
forgive and forget approach would have a problem in these cases. But to deviate from that approach would be wrong - assumming one holds fast the "forgive and forget" concept. My point is that we can talk all week about whether or not LCM or VPW should be forgiven but if you attempt to generalize the idea to other situations , like those mentioned above, then it doesn't seem to extend so well now does it ?
I wasn't abused by lcm or any other leader while in twi. I was abused later on - and I have forgiven that person - but I do not trust him at all.
I was abused mentally by my step monster. I forgave her - that took much longer - and it happened in degrees.
Now in the (hypothetical) event of the murder of my child... - I hope that if it ever came to that, that I could forgive in time. But I know it would take a VERY long time.
BTW - I have never said "forgive and FORGET!!!" I believe that to truly forgive you must remember. God forgets - Thankfully and by His will.
After all, an abusive hubby "repents every time he beats his wife - then she forgives him. Seems to me she needs to forgive (eventually) him and get thousands of miles away from him. PRONTO!! She NEEDS to remember, so that she become a victim again. Now I'm not saying it would be her fault that she got beaten - but no matter what she would need to remove herself from the situation while he "worked out his problems" so-to-speak.
like Jonny said - you have to actively forgive until it is a part of you - it's in degrees.
Rascal - I'm at the same place as you. Not trying to tell you what to do or feel - glad that we could get along if we knew each other better.
Thank you so much, mark, and johnny lingo, for answering my questions. You guys are the real deal, and I so appreciate you both taking the time to think and post here, so I can learn something.
What I don't get is this: Why some hold onto a teaching by LCM that somebody has to repent before being forgiven, when we know that most of what he said is, uh, how do I say it tactfully? SUSPECT.
Tis true, most of the forgiveness debate/discussion is Christianity 101.
Pretty much NOBODY in the Christian world views forgivess as something to be earned.
If one is not a Christian, then fine, fuhgetaboutit.
And dooj, thankee.
But if one is.......well, tis a different matter altogether.
(This is a long post...it includes excerpts from a book regarding one man's experiences with bipolar disorder also know as manic depressive disorder.)
I have not read all th posts in this thread, but have read most of them. And I realize the topic of debate has been standards regarding forgiveness. Perhaps what I am posting now should be another thread. But it is related to the topic at hand....LCM's behaviour. (Shoot...what Way topics are not related to that? :blink: )
If someone more experienced on GSC thinks it should be on a thread of its own, feel free to move it.
I experienced mental illness growing up in my family and have experienced it personally. It can destroy lives. That being said, a person still must be accountable for his/her actions. However, there are reasons people behave the way they do. Reasons are not excuses. There are rules to living within society. There are boundaries and when not respected there are consequences.
I do not want to engage in a tedious comparison of Sol Wachtler with LCM; plus there are too many unknown circumstances. I do not know if LCM has sought help in this area. One of the apparent differences in these accounts is that Wachtler took responsiblity for his actions. He did not view himself as a victim and did not make excuses for his actions. He owned up to them and has paid a high price. And he has sought help to change himself and to reach out to others.
An individual in my family growing up has never taken responsiblity for his/her actions; yet I have forgiven that individual. It took me years with counseling and educating myself in order for me to forgive. This individual has since sought help, but has no real recollection of past harms (partly due to shock treatments administered in the 1950's and 1990's). He/she was PARTLY a victim of an illness that society swept under the rug..............hush-sh-sh-sh. Notice I said partly. I am NOT saying LCM is a victim, so please don't take what I stated to mean that. And especially in our day & time there is much help for mental illness.
The ubiquitous damn hush has and does destroy so many lives.
When I read the following account a few years ago, I thought of LCM. I will not post the entire account, only excerpts.
It is from the book "New Hope for People with Bipolar Disorder."
Beginning of excerpts:
"One such example of a powerful personality who suffered from bipolar disorder is Judge Sol Wachtler. Judge Wachtler began his government career in 1963 when he was first elected to the city council of North Hempstead, New York. Wachtler advanced to the New York State Supreme court in 1968 and, in 1972, was elected to the Court of Appeals, New York's highest court. In 1985, Governor Mario Cuomo appointed Wachtler chief judge of the State of New York and the Court of Appeals. In an editorial piece for the New York Times, Alan Dershowitz wrote, "Sol Wachtler was not a good judge...he was a great judge." ....................................................
The story of Sol Wachtler is one of illicit love and clandestine meetings, compulsive behaviour and drug abuse, rejections and deceit, shame and self-reproach, depression with an attempt to self-medicate, and the fear of stigma--of being branded mentally incompetent.
Although it was a reckless act of compulsive behaviour that abruptly led to Wachtler's self-destruction and ultimate fall, the root of Sol Wachtler's problem was his bipolar illness. It wasn't until 1992 that Judge Wachtler finally received the diagnosis of bipolar disorder, but by then his unchecked illness had destroyed his professional career and his life. ................................................................................
...........
Five years after his diagnosis with bipolar disorder, Judge Wachtler went public in a book about his experiences, "After the Madness: A Judge's Own Prison Memoir." He maintained his dignity and sense of humor without excusing the actions that resulted in his arrest and conviction. Judge Wachtler's personal story can serve as a deterrant to others, as well as an inspiration.
There is no debating the pathological nature of manic-depressive illness. The disorder can unquestionably destroy lives, not to mention relationships. ................................................................................
.....
"Don't misunderstand, " said Wachtler. "Bipolar is not, and should not be , an excuse for criminal conduct. If someone aflficted with the disorder commits a criminal act, that person should be stopped or arrested before more harm is done."...............
Wachtler (was) incarcerated for 13 months........
After his release, Wachtler had to contend with the views of others about what he had done. ...."For example," (he said), "as a former chief judge of New York I was invited to attend the presentation of an award to Ruth Ginsburg, a justice of the United States Supreme Court. Before the actual ceremony, recognition was extended to all distinguished former recipients for that award who were in attendance. I listened and waited, but my name was never called. I checked the program, then discovered that it had been omitted from the list."
"As if you never existed, " said Deborah.
"Yes. Like a blot in history that was simply erased," he replied. ..................................................
"How did you view your illness?" inquired Bernie.
"Bizarre," said Wachtler. "But at that time I didn't consider my behaviour strange. I thought THEY (others) were bizarre, not me. 'I'm not talking too fast,' I'd say. 'You're listening to slowly.' Looking back, I don't see how I could have entertained that thought pattern. It's incomprehensible."
In his memoir, Wachtler sums up manic behaviour, and the unrealistic overconfidence and grandiosity that accompany full-blown mania: "Have a speech to deliver? I don't have to prepare--my head is full of the world's greatest speeches--just give me a platform." .............................................
...........Wachtler cautioned, "Not to seek help is foolish, stupid, terribly destructive....Had I accepted my wife's advice earlier, today I'd be governor of New York." ...........................
"I'm on a maintenance program, but I also self-assess. I measure what I've done and how I've done it. For example, am I speaking too rapidly? I keep a reality checklist."...............
Looking back on the behaviour that resulted in his public disgrace, Wachtler sees how out of control he was.........................
Since Wachtler's release from prison six years ago (1994), he has waged a crusade to help other people who, like himself, are afflicted with mental disorders. He travels extensively across the country lecturing about his bipolar condition. "Get help," he advocates. Don't be stupid like I was." But, by reaching out to others in the hope of removing the stigma of mental illness he has positioned himself for public attack......
Wachtler still maintains a busy schedule with all his pursuits and, as a mental health advocate, educating others is at the forefront of his concern. Nevertheless, Sol Wachtler has permanently lost "his court." "
One of the best (short) articles I've ever read about forgiveness was a reprint in readers digest entitled 'when forgiveness is a sin'. I don't know how to put the link up, but I checked and one can read it by googling.. when forgiveness is a sin Dennis Prager
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doojable
Has it occured to anyone here that forgiving someone is a sort of "dying to self?"
I mean, Peter asked Jesus how many times he should forgive a person (presumably for the same offense - but I could be wrong here.) Jesus answers "seventy times seven." WOW?
Think about it:
John calls Peter "Pebbles" and Peter gets hurt. He tells John and John asks for forgiveness. "Sure." "Fine, Thanks." They both go on their merry way.
Same thing happens the next day. This time Pete is taken aback and reminds John. John says, "Oh yea - I forgot. Forgive me?"
And so on and so on - 489 TIMES!!!!!
Well by the end of this if I were Pete I'd be questoning ole Johhny boy's sincerity and whether or not he is really repentant. In fact, I'd be wondering to myself if after every time John asks for forgiveness and Pete-y boy says, "Well, OK." if John doesn't go away snickering to himself "S U C K E R!!!"
I see here the recipe for dying to self. To forget about youself, your ego, your feelings and seek the higher plane that God calls us to.
O also see in the "Condemn not lest.." scriptures a warning from God. I have found that when I am at my most judgemental (and I do get that way) people all around me start to hold me to my own standards.
Now I'm not talking about any stiuation in general. I'm not demanding that anyone forgive anyone. I'm not laying out some "threat" that something bad will happen if you don't forgive. I'm just laying things out in the way I have dealt with forgiveness in my life. I've had a lot to work through - and NOT with TWI. I've got a scar on my upper thigh that is 18" long that I got when I was 12 because my stepmother was afraid that I didn't like her and my Dad didn't want to "rock the boat." That's just the beginning. I'm not getting into my whole story. But I have found that forgiveness really is very freeing. It really doesn't release the offender - it releases YOU the forgiver. The offender still has to either deal with guilt, or hardness of heart and that has it's own special reward - and it ain't pretty folks - I've seen it in others and it sux.
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markomalley
Ex10/Dooj
The section from Matthew 5/Luke 6 are part of larger sermon. This sermon begins at Matt 5:1 (the Sermon on the Mount) and at Luk 6:17 (Sermon on the Plain). To really understand these verses, you really need to analyze each of the sermons as a unit and then to interpret the verses within the context of the sermons within which they are located. Otherwise, taken out of context, they can be twisted to mean what we'd like them to mean.
The Sermon on the Mount does a couple of things:
- It expounds at length on the characteristics of those "beati" -- blessed (from which the term "Beatitudes" has its origin). If we look at these characteristics as a set, we see a call to a radical abandonment of mental and physical attraction to the material and the temporal. With a little thought, I am confident that you can find examples both in the gospels and in the Pauline epistles that parallel this call, so I won't waste your (or my) time in showing the specific verses (of course I can if requested, I just don't think it necessary).
- It then gives specific examples of behaviors that exemplify those characteristics: essentially a call to radical love that comes when the law is truly written on the heart and comes from within, as opposed to a mere external, behavioral observance of that law (cf Ps 40:7-8)
The Sermon on the Plain states the same but also adds the three woes upon those who are living for the material and for the temporal.
Taken within its proper context, the phrase "forgive, and ye shall be forgiven" is simply a component of this radical love and abandonment of the temporal/material that is a part of Jesus' overall message...
It's a very similar call like the one given to the rich man to sell all he had, and for us to take up our crosses. It's a different, foreign mindset to the one with which we've been raised. Temporally, it makes no sense. Looked at from an "eternal" perspective, there's no other way that does make sense.
The famous midieval philosopher, St. Thomas Aquinas, had an interesting way of saying this: "To love is to will the good of another" (cf: Summa II.I.28.3 and II.II.25.6).
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ex10
Mark, I get it, I think.
But, I happen to live in the world of relationships with other humans. And I would really like to be the best human I can be. (Blame catechism, I'm telling ya, it STICKS.)
So, idealism and spiritual aspirations aside, I gotta get along with people in my world, and make a contribution that matters.
Can you translate?
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ex10
Somehow, someway, being locked in a bedroom with some important somebody, high and mighty rev, taking his shirt off and asking me to give him a backrub while offering me a beer, doesn't seem like it's even worth talking about.
But......in the context of forgiving.....I know many of us have suffered much worse.
Thank you for your transparency, and sharing so much of yourself.
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J0nny Ling0
Well said Oldies. Jesus forgave those who crucified him, and if he can do that, then I can at least forgive LCM, VPW, DEW, HRA (Howard "R" Allen?"), and all the rest. I want to be bigger than them. I want to "not be overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good" (Romans 12: last verse). Forgive 'em and walk on. "Walking in the newness of Life". Leave the past behind. Go to new heights with our Heavanny Father, and dump the negs of the past. Take the good that you learned, and jettison that which wasn't good. Very simple. Very basic.
I really only say this to you all because I LOVE YOU! I am not just trying to win an argument. I simply know that "forgiving those who have trespassed against you" is the way to peace and joy, and an exit from the bitterness! Let it go! Shoot, all those who tresspassed against us have to face The Almighty One, and believe me, I am thankful that I won't have to "own up to as much" as those whom we know who have hurt us so. Or, will I? Or will you? Will you have to face The Almighty for your wrongs? In my opinion, I think I would rather follow Jesus's line of thinking, and "forgive those who have trespassed against us", for I know that I certainly am not perfect.........................................................................
.........
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ex10
Ok, Johnny, I get your message. Any tips on HOW? Anybody whose a Christian, or maybe just a pedestrian passing through, needs to forgive those who have sinned against us.
Got it.
Just how might one go about it?
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krys
Ex10 I understand what you're asking and I think Mark's idea of "putting it away" is what you do. (I'm speaking in general terms, I didn't mean you specifically.)
We cannot control our enemies actions, but we can control our responses. They scream and shout in arguments, and we "detach" a bit and speak quietly not getting caught up in the emotion. We don't "hate them back"...our response is neutral.
It's not always easy. I know that from personal experience I had with my brother. He wanted to get his hands on our parent's bank accounts - - divide it up among the grandchildren - and put them in a nursing home on medicare....destitute as it were. I made a promise to my mother and he berated me for keeping it....because "she's a dead woman - you don't have to keep it". It was a nightmare until finally I had to stop when he engaged me and put it all to the lawyers. It could have literally killed me I was so angry at his behavior and his actions toward me. He did all he could to get me in trouble with IRS too.
With some help, I finally decided I had to put the whole thing away from me and so I did. Because his lawyer couldn't get me on anything...my brother tried to pull more hate stuff, but caller ID is a miracle.
I finally realized he didn't know what was right, he was just greedy, and I had to keep us apart. I forgave him.....meaning I realized he could not and never would see the right thing to do, and I wasn't going to allow him to drag me into his whirlpool where he could drown me. He can be violent and he is very big. 6'4"/280 lbs. He has hurt me before and he could do it again.
It doesn't mean I don't think about him. I even remember the fights we had but the sting is gone and the anger. I miss my brother. He is all I have left of natural family. I don't hurt, my heart is light and that's the end of that.
Will he have to answer to God? I don't know. I have forgiven him but I will never trust him again. I think this is forgiveness with no reconciliation.
Can you extrapolate anything from this to help?
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markomalley
ex10:
You said,
Then you asked Jonny,
First, a caveat: I am not at the beginning of my journey and I am far from the end. But I can see the path that is hewn for me.
In answer to your first question, there's no 'cost' to developing a Christ-like attitude toward your fellow human being. There IS a cost of pride. There IS a cost in time and hard work. But there is hardly a cost of money, at least one that you'd miss when it's all said and done. There are some people who are called to a vocation of voluntary poverty, there are some who are called to the life of a hermit, there are some who are called to a vocation of a friar, but those who are also called to witness the life of Christ in our families and within society.
As the apostle asked, Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? The answer is clear: God arranged the organs in the body, each one of them, as he chose. Although we may not be called to live the life of total abandonment in a religious life, there is no reason why we cannot develop Christ-like internal attitudes while in our current station and exemplify those attitudes with our spouses, our children, our co-workers, and the people with whom we come in contact.
Let me repeat my caveat (in different terms): I am not perfect. I am a long way off from being perfect. Yada Yada.
How? There may be a number of different ways to get from point 'a' to point 'b', the way that has worked for me is basically a reliance on scriptures as the standard using Catholic spirituality (specifically an Ignatian technique) as the method.
I know you used to be Catholic, so you're probably already familiar with what I'm saying, so I won't waste either of our time with that. Keep in mind that a lot of the methods used in Catholic spirituality would and should apply to any Christian, even if they reject some of Catholic dogma.
Hope that helps.
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rascal
Dooj read the rest of that verse instead of just quoting part of it.......it SAYS *and when he REPENTS* to forgive him 70x7 it really does!
That is precisesly what I am talking about....why does everybody want to ignore THAT part of the instructions???
I don`t know why we feel like we have to alter the way God says to do it...
I think that forgiveness required is contingent upon that one little caveat.
Maybe we can ASK God to forgive them because like Jesus when he said at his crucifixion that *they know not what they do* (though I think that they did) But then again...I didn`t see him saying *I* personally forgive you there either...it seeems that even HE had to ask God on their behalf ....
God doesn`t forgive UNTILL we repent and ask... he doesn`t ask us to forgive our bother 70x7 UNTILL they repent....Further more when we are instructed that when we sin we are REQUIRED to apologise AND make resitution.
He did say to pray for them who despitefully use you.....ok that I can handle... guess that I feel that decades of heartfelt prayer from tens of thousands of believers didn`t alter their evil course ...maybe I feel like they have had their quota from me ....
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J0nny Ling0
If we have to wait for someone to repent so that we can enjoy the blessings of peace that comes with forgiving someone who has wronged us, then with the matter of VPW, we will, for the rest of our lives never enjoy that peace that comes with forgiving him, because he is DEAD.
Let it go...
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doojable
For you rascal: ( did you read my post: #119?)
Luke 17:1-4
Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offenses will come: but woe unto him , through whom they come!
It were better for him that a millstone werehanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.
Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying I repent; thou shalt forgive him.
The next verse reads: "And the apostles said unto theLord, Increase our faith." and starts a new topic so I didnt' quote it.
Now I didn't quote the similiar section in Matthew I just referred to it so her it is for you rascal:
Matt 18:18-35 is the whole section but I won't quote the all impertant parable in the latter 12 verses - I assume everyone has a Bible and can look it up - and it has already been handled expertly by Mark.
Matt 18:18-22
Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my father which is in heaven.
For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in themidst of them.
Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
Jesus saith unto him. I say not unto thee , Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
Therefore is the kindom of heaven likened unto a certain king...
Rascal - That is all that I have in my Bible for both sections. Do you have a version that reads differently?
There is no mention of repentance in this second section of scripture, ( although to be fair it is implied in the parable which follows) which IMHO, is Jesus's telling Peter not to just do what the standard for the day was - but to go WAY WAY overboard with forgiveness - but I did make the point that John (in my little story) repented - all 70 times seven - please go back and read it.
My point is that after all those 490 times isn't it tempting to doubt whether or not someone has truly repented? I mean come on.....
And - I have found many more verses that do not count repentance as a prerequisite for forgiveness. I did not quote all that I found but I figured that you would be willing to quote me your list. I'll keep looking - as a matter of fact i was looking tosee if I could find more verses that would support your point of view...and I'll continue - I believe in honest research. I'll continue and post as I find stuff -
Not wanting to fight here. I think that if we met on the street and talked we would like each other and maybe even respect each other - but agree to disagree on this point.
I don't mind being proved wrong - but I honestly did not find tons and tons of verses that say that repentance must preceed forgiveness. I did see that if someone asks for forgiveness we are to forgive. I did see where an offender is supposed to repent. But I also saw many, many, many, more times where forgiveness was offered without being asked for.
So again - do you have to forgive without repentance? - No. Can you? Yes. Will you? Apparently not - according to what you have said - and that's fine with me.
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rascal
Damned RIGHT we`d like each other dooj :)
I hope that you don`t think I am fighting.....Like most here, I am searching/evaluating/considering.
After nearly a life time of doing what people say *I oughtta* just because they think that it is a good idea ......with at times tragic results.....being forced into unGodly actions by a spiritual bully wielding bible verses....having to submit to unGodly treatment because of misapplied or poorly understood scriptures....I have gotten a bit muleish in my old age...
I tend to dig in my heels untill I understand fully. There will be no more going against my better judgement putting things on the *back burner* so to speak.
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diazbro
Speaking only for myself, I have peace in my life whether or not I "forgive" VPW, LCM, or some other icon of the Way experience.
My happiness is not a function of forgiving someone at all. I reject the characterization that if one doesn't actively forgive another
then one must be full of rage and isn't at peace. In my experience that simply isn't true. There are people who have wronged me and I simply don't think about them. At this moment I might think of them because of the context but thats it. Yes. There are people whom I hope reap the consequences of their actions but I don't make it my life's mission to carry anger inside.
I know people who claim to have forgiven someone else yet they still harbor negative feelings towards the person whom they allegedly forgave. As the kids like to say "whassup with that ?". Forgiveness between humans isn't some magic recipe for peaceful living. In my life the ONLY forgiveness that matters is that which God gave us. I certainly see the value in forgiving in another - that way two people can cultivate a better relationship and put aside the deeds of the past. And that can only happen at the right time. When both are ready. But , again, in my experience, those who are desperately seeking to be forgiven are typically just wanting to get off the hook for some past misdeed. I imagine lots of former Way leaders want to be forgiven but they'll have to do more than just ask for it as far as I'm concerned.
Speaking in general here. I wonder how many people here would forgive a man who murdered their best friend or a family member. Or forgive a man who physically assaulted one of your children or spouse. I think that those who are preaching the
forgive and forget approach would have a problem in these cases. But to deviate from that approach would be wrong - assumming one holds fast the "forgive and forget" concept. My point is that we can talk all week about whether or not LCM or VPW should be forgiven but if you attempt to generalize the idea to other situations , like those mentioned above, then it doesn't seem to extend so well now does it ?
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rascal
Diazbro, You explained my position precisely.
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FreeFromCults
I second rascal and agree what Diazbro stated.
We can get on and move on with our lives happily and peacefully IN SPITE of not forgiving people who has done us a lot of harm.
I am perfectly happy as the TWI scums don't play any role in my life. Will I forgive them? YEAH... RIGHT!
Will I forgive the last BC, TC and LC that I had? YEAH...RIGHT.
Will I lose sleep over not forgiving them? YEAH...RIGHT.
Will I wish them the best? YEAH...RIGHT.
Like many of us here, I am much better off without the TWI... 10 years later.
To me, the best way to get back at them is showing and let them know how succesful we are without them and that we are "blessed more abundantly" (how I hate that term) without them.
In their sick minds, they say that our success and "abundant blessing" is "work of the adversary".
I love to let them know that...YES, it is work of the adversary... the adversary of the TWI ministry... NOT the adversary of God.
Like I said: "to each, their own."
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markomalley
Rascal/Diazbro/FFC:
And that's the beautiful thing about GSC. This is not a cult. We don't all have to agree on our beliefs, our spirituality, or any other thing. Hopefully we can be respectful in our disagreement and allow our fellow greasespotters the freedom to practice their spirituality (or lack thereof) in the fashion they choose. But one way or the other, nobody is going to M&A you for disagreeing on a theological point. (Unless Paw changes the site's rules in the future LOL).
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rascal
Yeah n I I don`t have to feel less spiritual or disapointing to God when I disagree with the satus quo either :)
FreeFromCults...lol my friend says it THIS way...and I have adopted her mantra to be mine as well...
*Living well IS the best revenge*!
Let em gnash their teeth and froth at the mouth ... making excuses for why our lives give EVERY indication of God`s hand of blessing and prosperity in our lives....They have to have SOMETHING to blame their misery on.
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justloafing
Exactly guys. I was trying to figure out how to put it myself. It is nothing that wrenches my gut any more. I have basically left them by the way side. Why I do talk so bad about them on here is because of the pain and suffering they have put so many through and to this day people are suffering, that I do know for a fact. The last reason I do not have anything nice to say about them is I hope just hope someone may read and decide to get out or not go in.
TWI, I DO NOT LOSE SLEEP OVER YOU
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J0nny Ling0
Ex10
You asked "how to do it?"
Well, as an example, there is a guy in this town from whom we rented back in 1993/94. He was out of town for six months with his wife, and so we rented from him even though he was actually renting it from the owner. I believe this is called "sub-letting". At any rate, we had just arrived back in Alaska, and with housing really tight here, we were happy to find that place. And so, we payed the $1500.00 for the first month, a $600.00 dollar cleaning deposit, and moved in. We paid our rent on time the whole six months, and cleaned the house from top to bottom before we moved out, and he and his wife moved back in. And I mean to say we cleaned that place very well. I even got out my "Real Clean Windows" window cleaning gear and cleaned the huge tall glass windows that looked out upon the lovely Auke Lake. We knew that they would no doubt be very happy with how we had kept the place, and returned it to him so nice and cared for. As nomadic Ex-Wayfers, we had a large string of very good references on file, and this was to us, another very nicely kept home which we had rented, and returned to the folks who we rented from.
And so, when the guy inspected the place, he told us that it wasn't clean enough, and that we would not be getting our $6 hundy back. And, I was furious! He may as well have stuck a revolver in my face and said "give me that six hundred or I'll blow your head off". We even talked to the owner from whom this guy was renting, but he said that it was not his problem. We didn't seem to find a way to get our money back, and so, we "walked on'. But did I forgive him then? No friggin way. Over the years, if I were driving by his house late at night I'd stop and blast my aoogah horn until his bedroom light came on. I spoke disparagingly of him and with a vengeance, if the subject of "living on back loop road" came up in conversation. I used to drive by his tree nursery over next to the Safeway and curse his business. I wanted to "fork him" (plant hundreds of plastic forks in the lawn in front of his business-a way of saying; "Fork you!") something my son and friends did to a high school principal one time. I was just sooo *%^#*ed that this guy had stolen from me and my family. It was a violation, and he was so wrong about the way we left that house. But of course, he just wanted the deposit money, and said anything he wanted to. It was weird, this guy was like "the one guy I would not forgive". My own personal "one guy I wasn't letting off the hook" or whatever.
But, my wife began to tire of hearing me rant over "Dave that s.o.b. who ripped us off", and I finally decided that I should do as Jesus has asked us to do, for, how could I forgive those in TWI who wronged us, but not this guy? And so, what action did I take? Well, I asked God to forgive me for holding such a long grudge, and I asked Him to reverse any curses I put on him and his business, and asked God to help to open his eyes so that maybe one day he would see how dishonest he was (and is-his reputation as a business man is one of dishonesty over money-no surprise there) so that he could then change. And in my heart I forgave him and have moved on. I just figured that he was the one who has to live with himself. He'll reap what he sowed.
And now, when I drive by his business and the knee jerk reaction to thinking badly of him comes up, I just say out loud, "God I have forgiven that guy. You help him if you can". And I smile, and I drive on. And it has been really fun. Kind of like a very recent project as a matter of fact. "An exercise in forgiveness" if you will.
I just started reading a book called "Turning Curses To Blessings" by Carl Fox, a one time Way guy. The forward in the book was written by one Paul Norcross whom we both know. And the book has a lot to do with the words that come out of our mouths. And so, I am practicing to try and "bless" others with the words from my mouth as opposed to cursing them. It's a great book EX 10. In fact, if you look up Carl Fox on the net, you can read the first few chapters and the fwd by Paul Norcross> In fact, maybe I can post the website here:
http://www.cfim.net/Curses+Blessings.htm
Anyway, sorry for the de-rail, but it does kind of fit with the way in which I have applied my forgiveness to that guy who had stolen from us....
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doojable
Doesn't it seem like God is asking us - or telling us - to forgive and let Him sort things out? That releases you from the resposiblity of figuring out if the perp has truly repented. ( Seventy times seven! doesn't that seem like a lot to you???)
I wasn't abused by lcm or any other leader while in twi. I was abused later on - and I have forgiven that person - but I do not trust him at all.
I was abused mentally by my step monster. I forgave her - that took much longer - and it happened in degrees.
Now in the (hypothetical) event of the murder of my child... - I hope that if it ever came to that, that I could forgive in time. But I know it would take a VERY long time.
BTW - I have never said "forgive and FORGET!!!" I believe that to truly forgive you must remember. God forgets - Thankfully and by His will.
After all, an abusive hubby "repents every time he beats his wife - then she forgives him. Seems to me she needs to forgive (eventually) him and get thousands of miles away from him. PRONTO!! She NEEDS to remember, so that she become a victim again. Now I'm not saying it would be her fault that she got beaten - but no matter what she would need to remove herself from the situation while he "worked out his problems" so-to-speak.
like Jonny said - you have to actively forgive until it is a part of you - it's in degrees.
Rascal - I'm at the same place as you. Not trying to tell you what to do or feel - glad that we could get along if we knew each other better.
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ex10
oh geeze
I been busy for a couple of days.
Thank you so much, mark, and johnny lingo, for answering my questions. You guys are the real deal, and I so appreciate you both taking the time to think and post here, so I can learn something.
What I don't get is this: Why some hold onto a teaching by LCM that somebody has to repent before being forgiven, when we know that most of what he said is, uh, how do I say it tactfully? SUSPECT.
Tis true, most of the forgiveness debate/discussion is Christianity 101.
Pretty much NOBODY in the Christian world views forgivess as something to be earned.
If one is not a Christian, then fine, fuhgetaboutit.
And dooj, thankee.
But if one is.......well, tis a different matter altogether.
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doojable
It seems to me that lcm also taught "forgive and FORGET." He's the one who said that true forgiveness requires forgetting.
Hmmmmmmm
so let's see :
Lcm said that forgiveness had to be asked for ( but he never has)
Lcm said that to tuly forgive one must also forget( wouldn't THAT be convenient for him)
BUT here a few of us have presented scripture that states the opposite of what lcm taught.
You don't have to wait for someone to ask for forgiveness and you don't have to forget.
Now, whaddya" gonna do? :huh:
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I Love Bagpipes
(This is a long post...it includes excerpts from a book regarding one man's experiences with bipolar disorder also know as manic depressive disorder.)
I have not read all th posts in this thread, but have read most of them. And I realize the topic of debate has been standards regarding forgiveness. Perhaps what I am posting now should be another thread. But it is related to the topic at hand....LCM's behaviour. (Shoot...what Way topics are not related to that? :blink: )
If someone more experienced on GSC thinks it should be on a thread of its own, feel free to move it.
I experienced mental illness growing up in my family and have experienced it personally. It can destroy lives. That being said, a person still must be accountable for his/her actions. However, there are reasons people behave the way they do. Reasons are not excuses. There are rules to living within society. There are boundaries and when not respected there are consequences.
I do not want to engage in a tedious comparison of Sol Wachtler with LCM; plus there are too many unknown circumstances. I do not know if LCM has sought help in this area. One of the apparent differences in these accounts is that Wachtler took responsiblity for his actions. He did not view himself as a victim and did not make excuses for his actions. He owned up to them and has paid a high price. And he has sought help to change himself and to reach out to others.
An individual in my family growing up has never taken responsiblity for his/her actions; yet I have forgiven that individual. It took me years with counseling and educating myself in order for me to forgive. This individual has since sought help, but has no real recollection of past harms (partly due to shock treatments administered in the 1950's and 1990's). He/she was PARTLY a victim of an illness that society swept under the rug..............hush-sh-sh-sh. Notice I said partly. I am NOT saying LCM is a victim, so please don't take what I stated to mean that. And especially in our day & time there is much help for mental illness.
The ubiquitous damn hush has and does destroy so many lives.
When I read the following account a few years ago, I thought of LCM. I will not post the entire account, only excerpts.
It is from the book "New Hope for People with Bipolar Disorder."
Beginning of excerpts:
"One such example of a powerful personality who suffered from bipolar disorder is Judge Sol Wachtler. Judge Wachtler began his government career in 1963 when he was first elected to the city council of North Hempstead, New York. Wachtler advanced to the New York State Supreme court in 1968 and, in 1972, was elected to the Court of Appeals, New York's highest court. In 1985, Governor Mario Cuomo appointed Wachtler chief judge of the State of New York and the Court of Appeals. In an editorial piece for the New York Times, Alan Dershowitz wrote, "Sol Wachtler was not a good judge...he was a great judge." ....................................................
The story of Sol Wachtler is one of illicit love and clandestine meetings, compulsive behaviour and drug abuse, rejections and deceit, shame and self-reproach, depression with an attempt to self-medicate, and the fear of stigma--of being branded mentally incompetent.
Although it was a reckless act of compulsive behaviour that abruptly led to Wachtler's self-destruction and ultimate fall, the root of Sol Wachtler's problem was his bipolar illness. It wasn't until 1992 that Judge Wachtler finally received the diagnosis of bipolar disorder, but by then his unchecked illness had destroyed his professional career and his life. ................................................................................
...........
Five years after his diagnosis with bipolar disorder, Judge Wachtler went public in a book about his experiences, "After the Madness: A Judge's Own Prison Memoir." He maintained his dignity and sense of humor without excusing the actions that resulted in his arrest and conviction. Judge Wachtler's personal story can serve as a deterrant to others, as well as an inspiration.
There is no debating the pathological nature of manic-depressive illness. The disorder can unquestionably destroy lives, not to mention relationships. ................................................................................
.....
"Don't misunderstand, " said Wachtler. "Bipolar is not, and should not be , an excuse for criminal conduct. If someone aflficted with the disorder commits a criminal act, that person should be stopped or arrested before more harm is done."...............
Wachtler (was) incarcerated for 13 months........
After his release, Wachtler had to contend with the views of others about what he had done. ...."For example," (he said), "as a former chief judge of New York I was invited to attend the presentation of an award to Ruth Ginsburg, a justice of the United States Supreme Court. Before the actual ceremony, recognition was extended to all distinguished former recipients for that award who were in attendance. I listened and waited, but my name was never called. I checked the program, then discovered that it had been omitted from the list."
"As if you never existed, " said Deborah.
"Yes. Like a blot in history that was simply erased," he replied. ..................................................
"How did you view your illness?" inquired Bernie.
"Bizarre," said Wachtler. "But at that time I didn't consider my behaviour strange. I thought THEY (others) were bizarre, not me. 'I'm not talking too fast,' I'd say. 'You're listening to slowly.' Looking back, I don't see how I could have entertained that thought pattern. It's incomprehensible."
In his memoir, Wachtler sums up manic behaviour, and the unrealistic overconfidence and grandiosity that accompany full-blown mania: "Have a speech to deliver? I don't have to prepare--my head is full of the world's greatest speeches--just give me a platform." .............................................
...........Wachtler cautioned, "Not to seek help is foolish, stupid, terribly destructive....Had I accepted my wife's advice earlier, today I'd be governor of New York." ...........................
"I'm on a maintenance program, but I also self-assess. I measure what I've done and how I've done it. For example, am I speaking too rapidly? I keep a reality checklist."...............
Looking back on the behaviour that resulted in his public disgrace, Wachtler sees how out of control he was.........................
Since Wachtler's release from prison six years ago (1994), he has waged a crusade to help other people who, like himself, are afflicted with mental disorders. He travels extensively across the country lecturing about his bipolar condition. "Get help," he advocates. Don't be stupid like I was." But, by reaching out to others in the hope of removing the stigma of mental illness he has positioned himself for public attack......
Wachtler still maintains a busy schedule with all his pursuits and, as a mental health advocate, educating others is at the forefront of his concern. Nevertheless, Sol Wachtler has permanently lost "his court." "
End of excerpts.
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allan w.
One of the best (short) articles I've ever read about forgiveness was a reprint in readers digest entitled 'when forgiveness is a sin'. I don't know how to put the link up, but I checked and one can read it by googling.. when forgiveness is a sin Dennis Prager
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