To a man, i'd forgive lcm.

[oldiesman]

Here you go Allan:

When Forgiveness Is A Sin

[diazbro]

Lets look at some of the key elements from Prager's article since it is entirely relevant to this thread. My comments

are inserted between the "PRAGER" quotes.

PRAGER: "....And I am appalled and frightened by this feel-good doctrine of automatic forgiveness."

Of course. "automatic forgiveness" is a mechanism to relieve personal stress and to avoid the unpleasant yet very necessary aspects of working through the pain resulting from an offense (perpetrated or received). It cheats the process whereby we take stock of the magnitude of the offense so we can put it into perspective such that when we do forgive we have a very clear picture of what it is we are doing. No where in the Bible do I see the concept of "forgive immediately" or "forgive on demand. It simply doesn't exist.

PRAGER: "These days one often hears that "It is the Christian's duty to forgive, just as Jesus forgave those who crucified him." Of course, Jesus asked God to forgive those who crucified him. But Jesus never asked God to forgive those who had crucified thousands of other innocent people. Presumably he recognized that no one has the moral right to forgive evil done to others".

Right. So when a VPW diehard tells someone who sufferred abuse in TWI to forgive simply because others have forgiven VPW,LCM, and TWI then this is wrong. The diehard doesn't know what those abused people endured ( or they refuse to believe) yet

they demand that others forgive. Once again its cheating the process of healing and seeking a premature close to something that needs to be examined before

forgiveness can genuinly and truly be given.

PRAGER: "You and I have no right, religiously or morally, to forgive Timothy McVeigh or Michael Carneal; only those they sinned against have that right, If we are automatically forgiven no matter what we do, why repent? In fact, if we forgive everybody for all the evil they do, God and his forgiveness are unnecessary. We have substituted ourselves for God."

I'm gonna do some substitution here but I think its entirely appropriate. I'm using the first sentence of his paragraph. - "You and I have no right, religiously or morally, to forgive TWI or Victor Paul Weirwille; only those they sinned against have that right"

Wow. So true yet so many Way diehards so desperately seek total absolution for the VPW legacy that they seek to bully others into forgiveness. Worse, they attempt to characterize those who won't provide forgiveness on demand as being somehow unchristian in their behavior. You talk about a "lie from hell". Yet it goes. If you didn't suffer as a result of your Way experience or as a result of an association with VPW or LCM then good for you. But don't seek to minimize the problems of those who did.

PRAGER: "Some people have a more sophisticated defense of the forgive-every-one-everything doctrine: doing so is psychologically healthy. It brings "closure." This is therapy masquerading as idealism: "I forgive you because I want to feel better.""

This is really dead on and its how I usually see the concept of forgiveness being applied.

People want to forgive or be forgiven simply to feel better. They aren't at all concerned with establishing a better relationship with someone (or at least as a priority) they just want to get by the bad feelings and move on. Get that "closure". Proponents of the "you must forgive else suffer the pain of internal rage" are so far off base. Forgive when you are ready because if you do it prematurely then you will definitely experience rage upon that realization. I don't at all buy the "it will eat you alive" argument. It doesn't even make sense from my experience and many I talk to. Its just psycho-talk designed for people

to get rid of the bad feelings. Forgiving before you are ready is no healthy, right, or even authentic.

Edited March 17, 2006 by diazbro

[allan w.]

Thanks for that Oldies..I thought his article made a lot of sense. So, is there an easy way to explain to some of us how to post a link ?

[CoolWaters]

Wow! Thanks for bringing up that article Allan...and for posting the link OM...and for assistance in digesting it diazbro.

It explains a whole lot that I never quite grasped but felt in my heart. Ya know?

Allan...to post a link go to the bar across the top of the area where you type your repiles. There is a picture of a globe with a link (looks like a sideways 8). Click on that. A new window will open that asks for the url of the link. Put the url in there...and make sure you include the whole thing with www and everything. Click OK and then you will be provided a space to type in some description or something that tells people that it's a link and to what. Click OK and the all the code will appear in your reply.

Or you could just type the whole url in your reply and it automatically becomes a link. Use "Preview Post" to make sure you've done it right and/or the code translates correctly.

[allan w.]

Yer welcome CW.

[Sunnyfla]

I agree with you brother MO,

LET IT GO...LET IT GO...LET IT GO!!!!!!

Seriously:

The Bible teaches us that "there is no one righteous, not even one.... for ALL have sinned and come short of the Glory of God" (Romans 3:10,23); "In Him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace" (Ephesians1:7)

What about when Peter asked Our Lord Jesus Christ how often we should forgive others who sinned against us. Peter thought seven times would be generous enough. Jesus shocked him by telling him 77 times. In other words, there should be NO limits. Then as most of you know the parable Jesus shared about the king who had the servant. At the end Jesus says...

" This is how my Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your HEART" (Matt. 18:35) .

Jesus is telling us that we will not be able to experience God's forgiveness of OUR sins in a meaningful way as long as we harbor unforgiveness toward another in our hearts. (Isa. 59:2)

Edited March 22, 2006 by Sunnyfla

[outofdafog]

Ok so I only know of one"Allens" those being the Howard Allens. Who are we talking about -or at least where can I find out.

I found Waydale when the Allen lawsuit was just starting to go forward. I was going to testify at the trial and had already been deposed by the Way's attorneys and also met Paul and Fern Allen at my home with their attorneys from California. A couple of other witnesses were there also. The Allen's attorney's had successfully brought charges against other religious organizations or "cults" before. When we all met with the attorneys there did not seem to be an air of "this is all about the money". It was more about pulling the curtain open so that the man behind that curtain could be exposed.

I am not so silly as to think that these attorneys did not have a financial stake in the outcome. I am sure the Allen's were aware of that too. Duh. That's how attorney's get paid.

In no way shape or form did I feel abused or used by the Allens when they opted to settle, and we don't know which side made the offer, so alot of that is speculation. Nor do we know all the whys and wherefores of why it settled out of court. Nor did I feel it my business to ask. They asked me to speak honestly about those things that I experienced FIRST HAND in TWI during my involvement. One of the reasons that Paul asked me to do the trial in the first place was he felt that my postings on Waydale were fair and informative. He didn't just want witness that would agree with him about everything just because he said it was so. He wanted fair and accurate testimony. There were times when I even negated a posting or two on the site because the posters were passing rumor or inaccurate facts.

Paul and his wife had a lot of integrity to me, and I have heard before this line of thinking from people living vicariously through the Allen's lawsuit. It was first and foremost about them, Fern in particular, but what they did was help a whole lot of people in the process. What they did or didn't do with the money is no concern of mine. I opted to help when asked.

[oenophile]

Rendereth thou thine heart unto God for thy sorry foot belongeth to me. Forever and ever, Amen.

Edited March 27, 2006 by oenophile