THE APOSTLES PAUL AND JOHN, AND THE PROPHET ISAIAH
What did Paul communicate when he said “the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night”?
Firstly, Paul did not say Christ will return like a thief in the night, but that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.
Why did Paul refer to “the day of the Lord”?
What is “the day of the Lord”?
Is it the single day of Christ’s return?
Or does it refer to a span of time that applies to Heaven’s intervention upon Earth?
The Old Testament prophets give God’s precedent—God’s answer. Isaiah (among other prophets) testified that “the day of the Lord” is not one day but a span of time that speaks of God’s intervention into earthly affairs.
Why would Paul refer to “the day of the Lord”? Because God’s intervention into earthly affairs shall begin with Christ’s descent from Heaven to gather the church into Heaven to save it from the wrath to come.
To set the stage to understand Paul’s prophecy about “the day of the Lord,” this text moves back in time to the precedent established by God. What follows are prophecies given by Isaiah:
Wail, for the day of the Lord is near; it will come like destruction from the Almighty. Because of this, all hands will go limp, every man’s heart will melt. Terror will seize them, pain and anguish will grip them; they will writhe like a woman in labor. They will look aghast at each other, their faces aflame. See, the day of the Lord is coming—a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger—to make the land desolate and destroy the sinners within it. (Isa. 13:6–9)
Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty. The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the Lord alone shall be exalted in that day. For the day of the Lord of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low: . . . And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth. In that day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made each one for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats; To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth. (Isa. 2:10–12, 19–21 KJV)
The “day of the Lord” described by Isaiah is the same “day of the Lord” described by the New Testament apostles: it is the prophecy of Heaven’s intervention.
The prophecies given by Isaiah bare a striking resemblance to John’s prophecy in the Book of Revelation because John marked the onset of the day of the Lord:
I [John] watched as he [Christ] opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?” (Rev. 6:12–17)
This wrath described by John is the same wrath described by Isaiah.
Without question, the day of the Lord is the span of time marking Heaven’s intervention. The Old Testament prophets clearly spoke of this, but it wasn’t until Heaven gave revelation to the New Testament apostles about the church that the fullness of this intervention was made known.
When the sixth seal opens, the Lord Jesus Christ will gather God’s possessions, and the sky will be filled with souls marked by Heaven. Then the sky will recede upward like a scroll, and the church shall ascend to Heaven. The remaining population will erupt into chaos, seeking to be hidden from the God whom they rejected. (Whereas the sixth seal announces the coming wrath, the seventh seal initiates its actual commencement.)
This wrath spoken by John in the Book of Revelation is the same wrath spoken by Paul; it is the wrath the sons of God are saved from: “and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath” (1 Thess. 1:10).
Jesus Christ shall rescue the church “from” the coming wrath. “From” in the Greek language is apo and means “away from,” denoting “motion from the exterior.” In other words, the church is not just protected from the wrath while “sitting” on the Earth, but is saved “away from” the wrath by literally being drawn up away from the Earth’s surface: “motion from the exterior” of the Earth to Heaven, which is the gathering.
In contrast to the church gathered into Heaven, those who remain on the planet will understand the impending wrath. How do we know this?
John’s prophecy reveals the collective voice of those left behind: “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?”
If the religious tradition of the “signless” return is true, and no one on Earth can see Christ descend from Heaven, and the church simply disappears, then how could those left on Earth know “the great day of their wrath has come?”
Why would those who reject Christ say, “hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb”?
Those who are left on Earth must awake to Heaven’s judgment and Christ’s presence. How? God shall mark the onset of the day of the Lord with divine signs:
There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, and the stars in the sky fell to earth. (Rev. 6:12, 13)
[Christ] is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him (Rev. 1:7).
This is the testimony of God: Those who are on the Earth will see and understand Heaven’s divine power and the presence of Christ and then will recognize their own reality and fate.
Without question, before Heaven’s judgment strikes the Earth, divine signs will mark the divine threshold: “The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.”
The belief that Christ’s arrival to save the church is a “signless” event is rooted in religious history—not in the Scriptures. Our religious ancestors neglected the harmony between the Old and New Testaments, misunderstood one figure of speech, and consequently were deceived—and the deception continues to this day.
For those of us in the body of Christ who hold to the supreme authority of Scripture, there is no intent to create traditions or stories, but to be worthy of the divinely inspired story already written. Let us not silence the witnesses God gave us who prophesied about “the day of the Lord.” The testimony of God stands: signs—not the absence of them—shall mark Heaven’s timetable.
Heaven gave revelation to the New Testament apostles about the day of the Lord to inform the church about this future time.
Here is Paul’s prophecy:
Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people [who are not in the body of Christ] are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly [from wrath], as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day [the day of the Lord] should surprise you like a thief. You are all sons of the light and sons of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be alert [watch] and self-controlled. For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. But since we belong to the day, let us be self-controlled, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath [during Heaven’s intervention on Earth] but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him. (1 Thess. 5:1–10)
This prophecy is not speaking about signs, nor is it speaking exclusively about Christ’s return for the church. Rather, it speaks of Heaven’s intervention and the destiny of those within the body of Christ and the destiny of those not within the body of Christ. When Christ descends from Heaven to gather the church, the opposing fates shall be delivered concurrently.
With regard to the church, Paul said: “But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise [overtake] you like a thief.” The word “surprise” means “to lay hold of, [to] seize suddenly, [and to] come suddenly upon.”
The day of the Lord will not overtake the church like a thief. Why? “For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.” Wrath will not lay hold upon the church because of the salvation of the church.
What salvation? The same salvation Paul described just a few sentences earlier in his letter to the Thessalonians: the gathering in the clouds when we “meet the Lord in the air” (1 Thess. 4:17). Salvation means deliverance.
Next: When in our religious history did unsound doctrine regarding Christ’s return for the church first emerge?
To be continued…
Note: Heaven’s revelation about “the day of the Lord” is found throughout the Old Testament: Isaiah (2:12; 13:6, 9), Ezekiel (13:5; 30:3), Joel (1:15; 2:1, 11, 31; 3:14), Amos (5:18, 20), Obadiah (15), Zephaniah (1:7, 14), Zechariah (14:1), and Malachi (4:5).
I know that you posted to provoke thought—and that’s good.
Allow me to do likewise… by posing a couple of questions...
If the prophecies about the first coming of the Messiah turned out to be about the literal, personal presence of Jesus the Christ, then is it logical, or illogical, to believe that the prophecies about the second coming of the Messiah will turn out to be about the literal, personal presence of Jesus the Christ?
If God spoke of the lake of fire as literal, and in the future tense, then why should we conclude that it is figurative, and in the present tense?
This is the testimony of what shall come to pass:
And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Rev. 20:10)
According to Heaven’s revelation, the lake of fire is just as literal as Satan, the beast, and the false prophet. How can Heaven throw (a literal) Satan into a figure of speech? The lake of fire is a literal, burning “prison” that will be (future tense) the permanent residence of Satan and company.
This is what I believe:
The angel said to me [John], These words are trustworthy and true.” (Rev. 22:6)
The truth… it is about the truth… and where to find it… and that’s what you want, sirguessalot… isn’t it?
When in our religious history did unsound doctrine regarding Christ’s return for the church first emerge? The first century.
Church leadership actually dismissed both Paul and John—and Paul and John documented this deplorable state of affairs.
The apostle John revealed the mind-set of a church leader so twisted that he rejected not only an apostle of Christ but also cast Christ’s followers out of the church.
“I [John] wrote to the church, but Diotrephes, who loves to be first, will have nothing to do with us. So if I come, I will call attention to what he is doing, gossiping maliciously about us. Not satisfied with that, he refuses to welcome the brothers. He also stops those who want to do so and puts them out of the church” (3 John 9, 10).
How did Diotrephes handle John (someone who spoke out about the truth)? Vicious personal attacks and dismissal…
Sound familiar?
If that wasn’t bad enough, church leadership in Asia Minor saw fit to pull the entire flock of Christ away from the apostle Paul.
“You know that everyone in the province of Asia has deserted me [Paul]” (2 Tim. 1:15).
Church “leaders” “trashed” the apostles. How pathetic is that… Our religious ancestors saw fit to keep “their” flock away from John and Paul.
How many doctrinal mutations could have come out of this corrupt environment?
Paul, in his second letter to Timothy, wrote the following:
Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have wandered away from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some. (2 Tim. 2:16–18)
Hymenaeus and Philetus “wandered away from the truth” and taught “godless chatter” about the resurrection of those who died in Christ.
Why would God document this revolting picture from our spiritual past?
What is to be learned from this historical record?
We within the church must be honest with ourselves and examine what we have assumed to be true. This must include the doctrine of the “signless” rapture.
Just what exactly did we inherit from our religious ancestors?
Compare the “signless” rapture to what Paul said to the Thessalonians.
“Now, brothers, about times and dates.”
So what is Paul going to talk about? Signs? Or time?
“While people are saying, ‘Peace and safety,’ destruction will come on them suddenly.”
Is it “signless” destruction?
Or is it sudden destruction?
Paul is not speaking of the “signless” nature of Heaven’s intervention, but of the sudden nature of Heaven’s intervention.
It is not a “signless” rapture; it is a sudden rapture: "We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed" (1 Cor. 15:51, 52).
How could it have happened that we ended up believing and teaching the “signless” arrival of Christ?
Why should we just accept the corruption of Scripture handed to us by our religious ancestors?
The dogma of the “signless” rapture is nothing more than godless chatter and this teaching has spread like gangrene.
Enough of this “signless” dogma…
This is what I believe: There is one author, God, who gave us the “books” in the Bible. The Creator speaks with one voice, but with different perspectives on identical subjects. Consider Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Why four Gospels? They speak to the same subject, only with different perspectives so as to paint the fullness of the whole picture. God designed the whole Bible this way: different writers speaking to identical subjects providing unique pieces of the divine puzzle.
The divine harmony between the Old and New Testaments cannot be broken. It is by the multitude of writers (witnesses) that our God has given us in the Bible—who testify to the truth—and reveal the harmony within and between the Old and New Testaments, that we as Christ’s church can take God’s Word for “it,” and know what is truly sound doctrine. It is our enemy, Satan, who wants us to isolate verses, divide apostles one from another, and separate the prophecies of the Old Testament from the New Testament in order to produce unsound doctrine.
As pointed out by sirguessalot, there was confusion at the ascension scene.... This record serves to reinforce the importance of allowing the multitude of witnesses to guide our thoughts... especially the collective voice of Peter, Paul, and John... regarding the day of the Lord.
We as God’s human creation are at war with spiritual darkness and Satan seeks to out maneuver us at every turn of history. Satan has spent countless years covering up the signs that shall mark the commencement of the day of the Lord and the gathering of the church. Let our generation be remembered as the generation that ended the cover-up.
This text now turns to prophecies spoken by our Lord Jesus Christ, and the references he made to the Old Testament prophets.
Christendom had forsaken most of the spiritual truth's of Gods Word, and especially the truths that pertain to this present dispensation. Salvation was replaced with the sinners prayer and or works, and denominational beliefs replaced the Body of Christ.
The signs of the Return have been on going since the Lord sat down on the right hand of God. Believers can't predict the when of it, but they shouldn't ignore the many signs that smack dab them in the face.
Far too many of us who want the truth of the Scriptures spent countless hours pouring over dogma...
Where knowledge ends, imagination begins...
Personally, I have no interest in the religious circus... just the truth of the Scriptures... thank you.
JESUS CHRIST AND DANIEL, ISAIAH, AND MOSES
The day of the Lord refers not only to Christ’s descent from Heaven for the church but also to Christ’s descent for Israel.
Throughout the Old Testament, the prophets foretold what would become of the followers of the Old Covenant. Elements of these prophecies can be found in the very words of Christ in Matthew 24.
To set the stage to view Christ’s prophecy in the Gospel of Matthew, this text moves back to Old Testament times. What follows are prophecies given by Daniel, Isaiah, and Moses, respectively. These prophets foretold of the following: the Antichrist, the time of wrath, the signs that mark Christ’s return to the Holy Land, and the gathering of the remnant of Israel.
What Christ referenced in his prophecy is capitalized.
DANIEL:
He [the Antichrist] will confirm a covenant with many for one “seven” [seven years]. In the middle of the “seven” he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an ABOMINATION THAT CAUSES DESOLATION, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him [the Antichrist]. (Dan. 9:27)
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people [Daniel’s people: Israel]: AND THERE SHALL BE A TIME OF TROUBLE, SUCH AS NEVER WAS SINCE THERE WAS A NATION EVEN TO THAT SAME TIME: AND AT THAT TIME THY PEOPLE [iSRAEL] SHALL BE DELIVERED, every one that shall be found written in the book. (Dan. 12:1 KJV)
ISAIAH:
FOR THE STARS OF HEAVEN AND THE CONSTELLATIONS THEREOF SHALL NOT GIVE THEIR LIGHT: THE SUN SHALL BE DARKENED IN HIS GOING FORTH, AND THE MOON SHALL NOT CAUSE HER LIGHT TO SHINE. And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir. THEREFORE I WILL SHAKE THE HEAVENS, AND THE EARTH SHALL REMOVE OUT OF HER PLACE, in the wrath of the Lord of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger. (Isa. 13:10–13 KJV)
In that day the Lord will thresh from the flowing Euphrates to the Wadi of Egypt, and you, O Israelites, will be GATHERED up one by one. And in that day A GREAT TRUMPET will sound. Those who were perishing in Assyria and those who were exiled in Egypt will come and worship the Lord on the holy mountain in Jerusalem. (Isa. 27:12, 13)
MOSES:
That then the Lord thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and GATHER THEE FROM ALL THE NATIONS, whither the Lord thy God hath scattered thee. IF ANY OF THINE BE DRIVEN OUT UNTO THE OUTMOST PARTS OF HEAVEN, FROM THENCE WILL THE LORD THY GOD GATHER THEE, and from thence will he fetch thee: And the Lord thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it. (Deut. 30:3–5 KJV)
During his ministry, Christ also prophesied of what would become of Israel. In a single prophecy about his second coming to Israel, the Son of God spoke forth the collective voice of the three Old Testament prophets referenced above.
Christ prophesied of the Antichrist, the time of wrath, the signs that would mark his return to the Holy Land, and the gathering of the remnant of Israel. He introduced his prophecy by referring to Daniel and the final years of prophecy that lead up to the Apocalypse. What Christ referenced from the Old Testament is capitalized.
When ye therefore shall see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION, spoken of by DANIEL THE PROPHET, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: FOR THEN SHALL BE GREAT TRIBULATION, SUCH AS WAS NOT SINCE THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD TO THIS TIME, NO, NOR EVER SHALL BE. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened. Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall THE SUN BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON SHALL NOT GIVE HER LIGHT, AND THE STARS SHALL FALL FROM HEAVEN, AND THE POWERS OF THE HEAVENS SHALL BE SHAKEN: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET [THE GREAT TRUMPET], and they shall GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT FROM THE FOUR WINDS [OF THE EARTH], FROM ONE END OF HEAVEN TO THE OTHER. (Matt. 24:21–31 KJV)
Daniel, Isaiah, and Moses testify that this prophecy speaks of gathering Israel—not the church.
Zechariah prophesied of this future time—revealing how Israel would suffer grievously, but that there would be those who would emerge victorious.
“In the whole land,” declares the Lord, “two-thirds will be struck down and perish; yet one-third will be left in it. This third I will bring into the fire; I will refine them like silver and test them like gold. They will call on my name and I will answer them; I will say, ‘They are my people, and they will say, ‘The Lord is our God.’” (Zech. 13:8, 9)
The prophecies given here by Christ and the Old Testament prophets drop right into the revelation given to John: it is the time of the seventh seal.
The revelation written down by Matthew (chapter 24) directly corresponds to the revelation written down by John (chapters 8 – 19). Christ’s revelation to John dramatically expounds upon the revelation he initially gave to Matthew.
Note: “A great sound of a trumpet” is a figure of speech known as Hendiadys, where it is “not two things, but one,” (E. W. Bullinger, The Companion Bible [Grand Rapids, Mich.: Kregel Publications, 1990], 1366. In essence, Christ referred to what Isaiah referred to: the great trumpet.
The great trumpet marks the arrival of Christ for Israel, and the last trumpet marks the arrival of Christ for the church. According to Hebrew authorities, the great trumpet and the last trumpet are not one and the same. They mark completely different sounds, and according to the Scriptures, they mark completely different arrivals of Christ.
Next: Paul and John: Thessalonians and Revelation.
Let me say that I did respond to your inquiry on the return/rapture question. Please check my March 23, 10:45am and March 29, 6:14pm responses.
I admit that a few days can go by between posts... Allow me to share this: My access to the internet is through library computers, and therefore is subject to library hours and availability. Plus, as a rule, I don't normally respond immediately because I want to think through the heart of what is being said/asked. That's all.
Both Paul and John received—and wrote down for us—divine revelation. In Christ’s revelation to John, he revealed not only what must be hereafter, but he placed the end-time prophecies in chronological order by numbering them. In essence, Christ took all the guesswork out of what will happen and the order in which it will happen. Herein, Paul’s prophecies are clearly ordered by John.
What else could we as Christ’s church believe… but that Paul and John… together… would give us the divine harmony of divine revelation… providing unique pieces of the same prophetic puzzle.
REVELATION
Here is what John heard: “Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter” (Rev. 1:19 KJV).
“The things which shall be hereafter” begin in chapter 4: “After this I [John] looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter” (Rev. 4:1 KJV).
What must be hereafter? End-time events.
For this thread, the most important picture of Christ’s revelation to John is this:
The Book of Revelation contains the chronological sequence of events pertaining to the day of the Lord. In this sequence of events, Christ revealed that he would descend from Heaven not once, but twice.
1. THE SIXTH SEAL: THE CHURCH
How do we know the sixth seal refers to the church, and the rapture of it? Christ gave us the “sign” of his arrival for the church (Rev. 6:12), first spoken by both Peter and Joel (Acts 2:20; Joel 2:31): the sun will turn black and the moon will turn blood red.
2. THE SEVENTH SEAL: ISRAEL
The
7 years of Daniel’s
70th “seven” corresponds to the
7-year prophecy that follows the
7th seal…
Both Daniel and John prophesied of the Antichrist in the context of the seven-year prophecy.
According to the Old Testament prophets, Christ, and John, the seven-year span of time pertains to Daniel’s “people” (Dan. 9:24): Israel. The culmination of this time is the arrival of Christ with the saints: Revelation 19.
The prophetic picture given by John was first given by Paul.
1 THESSALONIANS
1. Our Lord shall descend for us, the church, and gather us in the clouds—at the onset of the day of the Lord (1 Thess. 5:2, 4, 9; 4:16, 17). According to John, it is the time of the sixth seal.
2. The church is saved from the wrath to come (1 Thess. 1:10, 5:9). According to John, the wrath commences after the seventh seal opens.
2 THESSALONIANS
1. The rise and fall of the Antichrist (2 Thess. 2:3, 4, 8–10). John expounded upon Paul’s prophecy in Revelation: chapters 13 – 19.
2. Christ shall descend with his angels in judgment (2 Thess. 1:7–9; 2:8). Revelation states that Christ will descend from Heaven with the saints (the church) and this will come to pass seven years after the seventh seal opens (19:8, 11–21).
Paul’s second letter to the Thessalonians focused on Christ’s second descent and the destruction of evil. In doing so, Paul reinforced what he already gave the church in his first letter: comfort. Paul gave comfort in the knowledge of the following: Christ shall gather and save the church before the time of wrath, and the Antichrist cannot rise to power until after the church is gathered.
Whereas the church will be saved “away from” the wrath by being drawn off the Earth at the time of the sixth seal, Israel will be saved “out” of the wrath seven years after the seventh seal opens—when Christ descends with the saints.
It is Israel, not the church that will be on the Earth during the time of the seventh seal. This is the time of great distress for Israel foretold by Jeremiah; it is “the time of Jacob’s [israel’s] trouble; but he shall be saved out of it” (Jer. 30:7 KJV).
Yet, some of our religious ancestors used Paul’s second letter to the Thessalonians to teach the church will be on the Earth during the rise of the Antichrist and will remain on the Earth throughout the wrath of the seventh seal.
If Christ’s revelation to Paul places the church in the clouds at the onset of the day of the Lord, and Christ’s revelation to John places the church in Heaven before the seventh seal opens, then how could Paul’s second letter to the Thessalonians state the complete opposite?
How is it possible that our religious ancestors could have come up with this interpretation of 2 Thessalonians?
We have to ask this: Why did Paul need to write a second letter?
Revvel, I'm really enjoying your writings, keep it up.
From various readings I've been doing, especially a great book called "The Invisible War" by Donald Barnhouse - which is one of the best I've ever read on an overview of creation through our times now, I have come to the conclusion, we must be taken out of the way. I believed firmly for a long time that we would be saved right before the "wrath," but undergo the tribulation - I guess I was a mid-tribber.
Also, I've come to a great understanding of how important each individual soul is. I mention this because we touched on the lake of fire earlier.
I read an incredible book about a man's near death experience - it was profound. What he experienced was right out of Ezekiel 32.
He died, and was shown a place where God is not (described in Ezekiel 32). He knew, that by his thoughts and life, he had made the choice to be there.
It is a place where God is not. It is where those who choose to live without God on earth and for eternity await the last resurrection and judgment. Their souls are quite alive.
We know, God says of himself, he is not the God of the dead, but of the living. A fleshly body may die, but God cannot, and will not, kill a soul.
The essence of it is: God is love. If someone chooses to hate God, does not want to be with him, has no desire to know him, etc., well, God cannot force an individual soul to do so.
Thus, for one who hates God, dislikes him, or is indifferent, the loving thing for God to do is to allow those souls to live without him - this is what they want. Thus, God is not unfair, does not "send people to hell" - its all the individual's choice. God is giving that soul, its deepest desire.
This is, I think, is what we would consider "hell." The essence of his story, and book is, be very, very, careful what you wish for, you just may get it.
This man had been born again as a child, and had rejected, and even hated God the rest of his life and had always tried to talk his friends out of believing in Christ.
I have read several other, very similar experiences. I won't go into detail, but if you want to know the name of the book I'll let you know.
This also explained to my why the psalmist David and others prayed their souls would be delivered out of the pit. There is a place, people back then understood, of which the understanding of has been lost today, but I believe God is revealing it once again.
But, I see that the one main purpose of our journey here on earth is for each individual to decide one thing, and one thing only: Do I want to live with God now and for eternity, or without him, now and for eternity? That is the choice, I believe all people - whether they believe in Christ or not, make.
Our sojourn on this planet is but a short stop, on our way to eternity either with God, or to a place where God is not.
To me, the burning lake of fire, is symbolic - it is a place, dimension, or whatever, where God is not. A place where corruption can never again be allowed to corrupt God's holy creation. When you really consider the implications of what life would be like without God - no love, light - no "true" life - this is worse than any fire, or an awful nightmare one cannot wake up from. God uses this symbolism to get across the point, that this place is a place no one would want to go.
My 2 cents - sorry for the long post - the lake of fire just sparked some thoughts.
Thank you again for your thoughts, and for your heart-felt presentation regarding our free-will choice: the decision to live with or without our Creator now and for eternity. Truly, the decision yields permanent life with, or permanent separation from, God.
I would like to respond regarding the lake of fire...
Take a look at what King David said:
Charge them with crime upon crime; do not let them share in your salvation. May they be blotted out of the book of life and not be listed with the righteous. (Ps. 69:27, 28)
3000 years ago David prayed this prayer.
2000 years ago Christ revealed this to us:
If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. . . . The lake of fire is the second death. (Rev. 20:15, 14)
The book of life gives us a reference point to understand the prophecy about the lake of fire. In his prophecy about the lake, Christ revealed that David’s prayer will be answered: On judgment day, those not found in the book of life will be without salvation and shall die the second death—which means they will be dead forever. Those not found in the book of life on judgment day shall have no life abiding in them. Christ and David are in agreement on this, and no one in the Bible disagrees with them.
“[F]or the wages of sin is death” (Rom. 6:23). Christ didn’t say the wages of sin is eternal life separated from God.
There is a significant difference between Hades (the place of the first death) and the lake of fire (the place of the second death): everyone in Hades will live again (by resurrection to life or condemnation); everyone cast into the lake of fire, however, will never live again. In other words, there is salvation after the first death (for those who chose it), and there is no salvation after the second death (because those in the lake chose none). God shall honor their free-will decision.
God is not the God of the dead but of the living—in the resurrection. Christ said this to the Sadducees who didn’t believe in the resurrection of the dead.
That same day the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to him [Jesus] with a question (Matt. 22:23)…. Jesus replied, “You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. But about the resurrection of the dead—have you not read what God said to you, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.” (Matt. 22:29–32)
“The only conclusion being that they must rise and live again in resurrection in order that He may be their God [bullinger].”
Christ was not teaching the Sadducees that there would be eternal life for all souls, but that God is the God of the living at the resurrection of the righteous (which these religious authorities rejected).
What does salvation in Christ mean? Eternal life.
What does no salvation mean? Eternal life? Or eternal death?
Christ answered that question: the second death.
On the subject of death itself…
There is no life or awareness in the first death:
Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the grave, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom. (Eccl. 9:10)
How can there be no life or awareness in the first death, and yet there be life and awareness in the second death? They are both “death.”
In Christ’s revelation about the lake of fire (Rev. 20:10–15), everyone and everything thrown into the lake is literal. Honestly, it is not our place as God’s creation to decide that the lake of fire is figurative when everything else in the prophecy is clearly literal. . .
Take a look at the same Greek word for “fire,” found in the context of judgment:
It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all. (Luke 17:28, 29)
How could Christ be referring to a figurative “fire” that “destroyed them all”? The fire Christ spoke of was literal energy that “destroyed” (or changed the form of) matter.
Just as literal fire from Heaven changed the form of matter among the morally bankrupt cities, so shall the literal fire in the literal lake of fire change the form of matter for those not found in the book of life, and they shall remain eternally in the literal second death.
I know you see it differently. Perhaps on this subject we should agree to disagree.
MOSES, ISAIAH, JEREMIAH, EZEKIEL, DANIEL, PAUL, and JOHN
Prior to moving on to Paul’s second letter to the Thessalonians, I would like to introduce Paul’s letter by setting the stage; it is a stage given by Jeremiah: "it is even the time of Jacob’s trouble; but he shall be saved out of it" (Jer. 30:7 KJV).
This prophecy of Jeremiah had an immediate fulfillment relative to the Babylonian captivity, and this prophecy has an ultimate fulfillment relative to the captivity under the Antichrist. God delivered the followers of the Old Covenant out of trouble when he set them free from Babylon, and God will again deliver the followers of the Old Covenant out of trouble when he sets them free from the Antichrist. Paul prophesied of this ultimate fulfillment (2 Thess. 1:7–9).
Many Old Testament writings contain a dual purpose: an immediate fulfillment before the time of Christ and an ultimate fulfillment in the presence of the Christ.
How do we know this?
The precedent given to us by God through Moses enables us to see God’s vision. “The law is . . . a shadow of the good things that are coming” (Heb. 10:1).
This precedent established by Moses carries throughout the Old Testament. The Old Testament writings foreshadowed what would ultimately come to pass in New Testament times.
Not only was Satan blind to the MYSTERY (1 Cor. 2:7, 8; Eph. 3:4–6; Col. 1:27), he was blind to God’s hidden wisdom regarding “Jacob”—which was interwoven in the prophecies of Moses and of other Old Testament prophets, including Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and Daniel.
What follows is Jeremiah’s prophecy regarding “Jacob’s trouble.” What you are about to read applies to Jacob's captivity under Babylon and the Antichrist. The terminology that reflects end-times is capitalized.
JEREMIAH: Jacob’s Trouble
The word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord, saying, Thus speaketh the Lord God of Israel, saying, Write thee all the words that I have spoken unto thee in a book. For, lo, the days come, saith the Lord, that I WILL BRING [bACK FROM] AGAIN THE CAPTIVITY OF MY PEOPLE ISRAEL AND JUDAH, SAITH THE LORD: AND I WILL CAUSE THEM TO RETURN TO THE LAND THAT I GAVE TO THEIR FATHERS, and they shall possess it. And these are the words that the Lord spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah. For thus saith the Lord; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace. Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, AS A WOMAN IN TRAVAIL, and all FACES ARE TURNED INTO PALENESS? Alas! for THAT DAY is great, so that NONE IS LIKE IT: IT IS EVEN THE TIME OF JACOB’S TROUBLE; but he shall be saved out of it. For it shall come to pass in THAT DAY, saith the Lord of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him: But they shall serve the Lord their God, and DAVID THEIR KING, WHOM I WILL RAISE UP UNTO THEM. Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the Lord; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; AND JACOB SHALL RETURN, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid. (Jer. 30:1–10 KJV)
The capitalized terminology reflects end-time prophecies given by Isaiah, Daniel, and Ezekiel. Each prophecy is in the context of the day of the Lord, which includes the time of the Antichrist.
ISAIAH
Terror will seize them, pain and anguish will grip them; they will writhe LIKE A WOMAN IN LABOR. They will look aghast at each other, THEIR FACES AFLAME. See, THE DAY OF THE LORD is coming—a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger—to make the land desolate and destroy the sinners within it. (Isa. 13:8, 9)
The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the Lord alone shall be exalted in THAT DAY. For THE DAY OF THE LORD OF HOSTS shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low. (Isa. 2:11, 12 KJV)
DANIEL
At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people [DANIEL’S PEOPLE: JACOB], will arise. There will be a TIME OF DISTRESS SUCH AS HAS NOT HAPPENED from the beginning of nations until then. (Dan. 12:1)
EZEKIEL
MY SERVANT DAVID WILL BE KING OVER THEM, and they will all have one shepherd. They will follow my laws and be careful to keep my decrees. THEY WILL LIVE IN THE LAND I GAVE TO MY SERVANT JACOB, THE LAND WHERE YOUR FATHERS LIVED. They and their children and their children’s children will live there forever, and DAVID MY SERVANT WILL BE THEIR PRINCE FOREVER. (Ezek. 37:24, 25)
Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says: I WILL NOW BRING JACOB BACK FROM CAPTIVITY AND WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON ALL THE PEOPLE OF ISRAEL, and I will be zealous for my holy name. (Ezek. 39:25)
Through his prophets, God’s vision of deliverance for his people stretched far into the future. Prophecies given over 2500 years ago about Jacob’s deliverance are still future tense. Jeremiah gave one of those prophecies: “Jacob’s trouble.”
Jeremiah is speaking about Jacob’s trouble, not the church’s trouble: “But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend” (Isa. 41:8 KJV). It is Jacob, not the church that will have “trouble” under the reign of the Antichrist.
Jeremiah’s prophecy applied to the followers of the Old Covenant before the time of Christ and it will again apply to the followers of the Old Covenant in the presence of the Christ.
The NIV Study Bible states the following about “Jacob’s trouble”: “A description of the day of the Lord. . . . Jeremiah’s immediate reference is to the foreseeable future [babylon] (see vv. 8, 18), but a more remote time in the Messianic age is also in view.”
Prophecies that have the “Messianic age in view” are given by numerous Old Testament prophets, and find parallels with the New Testament apostles. The prophecy of Jacob’s trouble drops right into the chronological sequence of end-time events:
1.Christ’s descent from Heaven with the church to rescue Jacob out of the grip of the Antichrist, and, in addition, gather Jacob.
2.The 1000-year kingdom of Christ.
3.The destruction of Gog and Magog.
The prophecies given by Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Paul, and John combine to give us this picture.
EZEKIEL, JEREMIAH, PAUL, AND JOHN
Prophecies given by Ezekiel and John are clearly linked by virtue of the fact that they both spoke of Gog and Magog. In addition, the prophecies given by Ezekiel and Jeremiah (about Jacob’s trouble) overlap, and therefore, both make reference to what will ultimately be fulfilled in the presence of the Christ.
Ezekiel’s prophecy had an immediate fulfillment before the time of Christ, and will have an ultimate fulfillment in the presence of the Christ.
EZEKIEL: 38
The word of the Lord came to me: “Son of man, set your face against GOG, OF THE LAND OF MAGOG, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal; prophesy against him and say: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am against you, O Gog, chief prince of Meshech and Tubal. I will turn you around, put hooks in your jaws and bring you out with your whole army—your horses, your horsemen fully armed, and a great horde with large and small shields, all of them brandishing their swords.’” (Ezek. 38:1–4)
This is what will happen in that day: When GOG ATTACKS THE LAND OF ISRAEL, my hot anger will be aroused, declares the Sovereign Lord. . . . I will execute judgment upon him with plague and bloodshed; I WILL POUR DOWN TORRENTS OF RAIN, HAILSTONES AND BURNING SULFUR ON HIM AND ON HIS TROOPS AND ON THE MANY NATIONS WITH HIM. And so I will show my greatness and my holiness, and I will make myself known in the sight of many nations. Then they will know that I am the Lord. (Ezek. 38:18, 22, 23)
John’s reference to Ezekiel, and the ultimate fulfillment of his prophecy, is found in Revelation 20.
REVELATION: 20
And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive THE NATIONS which are in the four quarters of the earth, GOG AND MAGOG, TO GATHER THEM TOGETHER TO BATTLE: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. AND THEY WENT UP ON THE BREADTH OF THE EARTH, AND COMPASSED THE CAMP OF THE SAINTS ABOUT, AND THE BELOVED CITY: AND FIRE CAME DOWN FROM GOD OUT OF HEAVEN, AND DEVOURED THEM. (Rev. 20:7–9 KJV)
God linked Ezekiel and John by using the same terminology: Gog and Magog. Without question, Ezekiel’s prophecy will be ultimately fulfilled in the presence of the Christ. After the 1000-year kingdom of Christ, the enemies of God will be destroyed, and this time, never will they rise again.
The following is taken from Nelsons’ New Illustrated Bible Dictionary:
“Gog—The leader of a confederacy of armies that attacked the land of Israel. Described as “the prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal,” Gog is also depicted as being “of the land of Magog” (Ezek. 38:2–3), a “place out of the far north” of Israel. Ezekiel prophetically describes Gog and his allies striking at Israel with a fierce and sudden invasion (Ezekiel 38-39). According to Ezekiel’s prophecy, Gog will be crushed on the mountains of Israel in a slaughter so great it will take seven months to bury the dead (Ezek. 39:12). In the Book of Revelation, Gog and Magog reappear as symbols of the nations of the world that will march against God’s people in the end times (Rev. 20:7–8).”
Take a look at the greater context of Ezekiel’s prophecy. God is referring to the millennial kingdom.
EZEKIEL: 37
This is what the Sovereign Lord says: O my people, I AM GOING TO OPEN YOUR GRAVES AND BRING YOU UP FROM THEM; I WILL BRING YOU BACK TO THE LAND OF ISRAEL. Then you, my people, will know that I am the Lord, when I open your graves and bring you up from them. I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT IN YOU AND YOU WILL LIVE, AND I WILL SETTLE YOU IN YOUR OWN LAND. Then you will know that I the Lord have spoken, and I have done it, declares the Lord. (Ezek. 37:12–14)
I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. THERE WILL BE ONE KING OVER ALL OF THEM and they will never again be two nations or be divided into two kingdoms. They will no longer defile themselves with their idols and vile images or with any of their offenses, for I will save them from all their sinful backsliding, and I will cleanse them. They will be my people, and I will be their God. MY SERVANT DAVID WILL BE KING OVER THEM, AND THEY WILL ALL HAVE ONE SHEPHERD. They will follow my laws and be careful to keep my decrees. THEY WILL LIVE IN THE LAND I GAVE TO MY SERVANT JACOB, THE LAND WHERE YOUR FATHERS LIVED. They and their children and their children’s children will live there forever, and DAVID MY SERVANT WILL BE THEIR PRINCE FOREVER. I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant. (Ezek. 37:22–26)
The NIV Study Bible states the following about Ezekiel 38 and 39: “The future restoration of Israel under the reign of the house of David (ch. 37) will bring about a massive coalition of world powers to destroy God’s kingdom. But the vast host [Gog and Magog] that comes against Jerusalem will end up as dead bodies strewn over the fields of the promised land. Israel will become the cemetery of the enemy hordes (cf. ch. 37).”
Ezekiel and Jeremiah provide unique pieces of the divine puzzle and together give us a picture of what shall be for Jacob. Just as the ancient enemies of Gog and Magog foreshadowed the end-times enemy of Revelation 20, so likewise the Babylonian captivity of Jacob foreshadowed the end-times captivity of Jacob under the Antichrist. The revelation Christ gave to Paul explained how Jacob would be delivered out of his trouble in the end times: Christ shall descend from Heaven with his armies (2 Thess. 1:7–9).
If the New Testament is divine revelation, then every prophecy given by our Lord must be in harmony with one another—from Matthew to Revelation. If the Old Testament is divine revelation, then all prophecies about “the day of the Lord” in both Testaments are in perfect harmony with one another.
I believe each Testament is divine revelation, and I have to believe that many of you reading this feel the same way.
If you have been following this, you have a fairly good idea of what my interest is: to search through the divine harmony of divine revelation given by our Lord, and see the parallel prophecies given by the Old Testament prophets.
What follows is revelation given by our Lord to John and Peter. In these two posts, I pose a number of questions… They are designed to provoke thought for all of us in the body of Christ…
If you are inspired to do so, please share your thoughts as you see fit.
You have my apologies regarding 2 Thessalonians. It will follow. I’m just not sure when.
If the good news of Christ ended with the Gospels, then why didn’t Heaven end the New Testament with the Gospel of John?
Why did Christ need to continue to give revelation to his apostles after he ascended to Heaven?
Is it possible that Christ’s revelation given to his apostles shed additional, divine light upon end-time prophecies first given in the Old Testament and the Gospels?
Why else would Christ continue to give revelation from Heaven unless he was expounding upon the good news he first gave during his earthly ministry?
This additional information includes the vision of the church in Heaven—marked at the sixth seal…
When the sixth seal opens, the sun will turn black and the moon will turn blood red, and this marks a dramatic, divine threshold: every human being on the planet will be impacted.
Shouldn’t we as Christ’s church seek to understand what Christ is revealing to us about this time?
My question is this: How can any prophecy Christ gave in the Gospels, or any prophecy in the Old Testament, contradict Christ’s own vision of the church in Heaven when the sixth seal opens (Rev. 7:9-17)?
Doesn’t it make sense that we as the body of Christ, together, should honestly research why our Lord would give us this vision?
Shouldn’t it be important for us to understand why our Lord numbered the visions he gave us in his final revelation to John?
Why else would Christ number the visions but to show us the chronological order of end-time events?
Is it possible that Christ’s final revelation pulls together all the prophets and apostles in one book, Revelation, and sets in order their prophecies that speak to “the day of the Lord”?
This is where I am coming from: Not only was Satan blind to the MYSTERY (1 Cor. 2:7, 8; Eph. 3:4–6; Col. 1:27), and blind to God’s hidden wisdom regarding “Jacob” (Jacob’s trouble), Satan was blind to God’s hidden wisdom regarding “the day of the Lord.”
This hidden wisdom was fully revealed by our glorified Lord after he ascended into Heaven. Central to this hidden wisdom is the vision Christ gave to John of the church in Heaven… in the Book of Revelation.
Look at how John begins Revelation:
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near. (Rev. 1:1-3)
According to the revelation given by our Lord…
What will happen to Earth’s population when the sixth seal opens, and the sun turns black and the moon turns blood red? . . .
Christ’s revelation about the sixth seal gives us three separate visions about three separate groups of people…
Paul revealed that Heaven sees Earth’s population as follows: “THE JEWS. . . THE GENTILES. . . THE CHURCH OF GOD” (1 Cor. 10:32 kjv).
In his revelation about the sixth seal, Christ gave three separate visions of three separate groups of people with three separate fates.
Is it possible that Christ gave three separate visions to describe what shall become of the three separate groups of people: the Jews, the Gentiles, and the church of God?
CHRIST’S REVELATION: THE SIXTH SEAL
Here is one vision given by Christ:
Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel. From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed, from the tribe of Reuben 12,000, from the tribe of Gad 12,000, from the tribe of Asher 12,000, from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000, from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000, from the tribe of Simeon 12,000, from the tribe of Levi 12,000, from the tribe of Issachar 12,000, from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000, from the tribe of Joseph 12,000, from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000. (Rev. 7:4-8)
Is Christ referring to “the Jews [israel],” “the Gentiles,” or to “the church of God”?
Israel.
Where is this group of people after the sixth opens? Heaven? Or Earth?
This is how the vision of the 144,000 is introduced:
After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: “Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” (Rev. 7:1-3)
The “sea” and the “trees” are on the Earth and so is Israel.
This is also seen when the wrath actually begins: “They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads” (Rev. 8:4). The 144,000 who have “the seal of God on their foreheads” shall be shielded from this harm.
Without question, at the time of the sixth seal, Christ’s revelation places Israel on the Earth.
Here is another vision:
After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. And they cried out in a loud voice:
“Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.”
All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying:
“Amen! Praise and glory and wisdom and thanks and honor
and power and strength be to our God for ever and ever. Amen!”
Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?” I answered, “Sir, you know.” And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore, “they are before the throne of God and serve him day and night in his temple; and he who sits on the throne will spread his tent over them. Never again will they hunger; never again will they thirst. The sun will not beat upon them, nor any scorching heat. For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd; he will lead them to springs of living water. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.” (Rev. 7:9-17)
Is Christ referring to “the Jews [israel],” “the Gentiles,” or to “the church of God”?
Which group of people washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb?
The church.
According to Christ, where is this group of people? Earth? Or Heaven?
To everyone in the body of Christ… When we stand before our Lord in Heaven, our robes will be white because of the blood of the Lamb.
Why else would Christ give us a vision of the church in Heaven after the sixth seal opens, unless the church is in Heaven after the sixth seal opens?
How can we as Christ’s church—with clear conscience before our Lord—just dismiss this vision?
What can we hope to gain by not embracing it?
How can any theologian, any minister, any Christian, any human being successfully overturn or explain away Christ’s vision of the church standing before the throne of Heaven after the sixth seal opens?
Here is another vision from the sixth seal:
Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?” (Rev. 6:15-17)
Is Christ referring to “the Jews [israel],” “the Gentiles,” or to “the church of God”?
Who are those who want to hide from Christ?
Is Christ referring to the church hiding from their own Lord?
Or is this vision describing those who reject Jesus as the Messiah: the Gentiles and the Jews?
Doesn’t it make sense that those who reject Christ would seek to hide from Christ?
This third vision is referring the Gentiles and the Jews.
According to Christ, where are they? Heaven? Or Earth?
Earth.
So, what did our Lord show us about will happen to the three groups of people when the sixth seal opens?
1.The Gentiles and the Jews will hide throughout the Earth from the Messiah that they rejected.
2.144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel will be sealed on the Earth.
3.The church of God will be standing before the throne of Heaven.
The sixth seal marks the onset of “the day of the Lord” and our Lord revealed to us what shall become of everyone when he descends in the clouds.
If the visible Christ were not descending in the clouds at the opening of the sixth seal, then why would those left on Earth say, “hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb”?
Whose face are they looking at when the sixth seal opens?
Why shouldn’t we as the body of Christ refer to the revelation already given to John?
[Christ] is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him (Rev. 1:7).
If every eye will see Christ, then wouldn’t they see his “face” too?
…What did Christ reveal to us regarding the signs of the sixth seal?
I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. (Rev. 6:12, 13)
When the sun turns black and the moon turns blood red…
God will signal us that “the day of the Lord” is upon us: we as the church will rejoice, 144,000 of Israel will be sealed, and everyone else will be in a state of fear.
What reason could we offer to Christ to justify not taking his revelation at face value? In other words, how can we as his church justify not believing his revelation as literally given?
What did Christ’s revelation to John reveal to us?
It revealed the wisdom hidden within “the day of the Lord”: a unique section of prophecy about “the day of the Lord” applied exclusively to the church—and applied exclusively to Christ’s coming for the church.
When the sun turns black and the moon turns blood red…
the onset of the day of the Lord is upon us. It is then that Christ shall descend from Heaven to transform and transport the church—not seven years later.
Without question, “the day of the Lord” is the span of time marking Heaven’s intervention. The Old Testament prophets clearly spoke of this, but it wasn’t until Christ gave revelation to the New Testament apostles about the church that the fullness of this intervention was made known. Enter: the sixth seal. There, Christ gave us information not found anywhere else in the Bible.
What should we as the body of Christ do with it?
Perhaps some of you coordinate or participate in a Bible study group…
Why not introduce the sixth seal as a topic for discussion?
I invite anyone reading this to share his or her thoughts on the sixth seal.
On the first day of the church, Peter also referred to the sun turning dark and the moon turning blood red. Why?
This is what Peter quoted from Joel:
“The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood…. And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Why did Peter quote this from Joel’s prophecy?
What is the point that Peter is making?
Who are those who call on the name of the Lord?
Why else would Peter quote Joel on the first day of the church unless it applied to church?
Could it be that through Peter, Christ revealed to the “world” Heaven’s wisdom hidden within Joel’s prophecy of “the day of the Lord”?
What follows is Joel’s prophecy about “the day of the Lord.” What is in bold is what Peter declared on Pentecost.
JOEL: The day of the Lord
The Lord thunders at the head of his army; his forces are beyond number, and mighty are those who obey his command. The day of the Lord is great; it is dreadful. Who can endure it?. . . Then you will know that I am in Israel, that I am the Lord your God, and that there is no other; never again will my people be shamed. “And afterward, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days. I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and billows of smoke. The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord. And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be deliverance, as the Lord has said, among the survivors whom the Lord calls.
“In those days and at that time, when I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem, I will gather all nations and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. There I will enter into judgment against them concerning my inheritance, my people Israel, for they scattered my people among the nations and divided up my land. . . . . Proclaim this among the nations:
Prepare for war! Rouse the warriors! Let all the fighting men draw near and attack. Beat your plowshares into swords and your pruning hooks into spears. Let the weakling say, “I am strong!” Come quickly, all you nations from every side, and assemble there. Bring down your warriors, O Lord!
“Let the nations be roused; let them advance into the Valley of Jehoshaphat, for there I will sit to judge all the nations on every side.
Swing the sickle, for the harvest is ripe. Come, trample the grapes,
for the winepress is full and the vats overflow—so great is their wickedness!” Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision! For the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision. The sun and moon will be darkened, and the stars no longer shine. THE LORD WILL ROAR FROM ZION AND THUNDER FROM JERUSALEM; THE EARTH AND THE SKY WILL TREMBLE. BUT THE LORD WILL BE A REFUGE FOR HIS PEOPLE, A STRONGHOLD FOR THE PEOPLE OF ISRAEL. “Then you will know that I, the Lord your God, dwell in Zion, my holy hill. Jerusalem will be holy; never again will foreigners invade her. (Joel 2:11, 27-32; 3:1, 2, 9-17)
Why did Peter quote what he quoted?
Could it be that Peter revealed the wisdom hidden within Joel’s prophecy: there are two separate prophecies that shall be fulfilled at two different times for two different groups of people?
The Church: The Sixth Seal: The first arrival of Christ:
“And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Seven years after Christ ascends to Heaven with the church…
Israel: The Seventh Seal: The second arrival of Christ:
“The Lord will roar from Zion and thunder from Jerusalem; the earth and the sky will tremble. But the Lord will be a refuge for his people, a stronghold for the people of Israel.”
Could it be that there is a dual prophecy contained in “the day of the Lord,” meaning, there are prophecies throughout the entire Bible about “the day of the Lord” that apply exclusively to the church and prophecies about “the day of the Lord” that apply exclusively to Israel?
Allow yourself to consider this: Satan wants the church to ignore Peter’s prophecy; Satan wants the church to read Joel’s prophecy as if Peter never said anything on Pentecost.
The Lord thunders at the head of his army; his forces are beyond number, and mighty are those who obey his command. The day of the Lord is great; it is dreadful. Who can endure it?. . . Then you will know that I am in Israel, that I am the Lord your God, and that there is no other; never again will my people be shamed. “And afterward, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days. I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and billows of smoke. The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord. And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be deliverance, as the Lord has said, among the survivors whom the Lord calls.
“In those days and at that time, when I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem, I will gather all nations and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. There I will enter into judgment against them concerning my inheritance, my people Israel, for they scattered my people among the nations and divided up my land. . . . . Proclaim this among the nations:
Prepare for war! Rouse the warriors! Let all the fighting men draw near and attack. Beat your plowshares into swords and your pruning hooks into spears. Let the weakling say, “I am strong!” Come quickly, all you nations from every side, and assemble there. Bring down your warriors, O Lord!
“Let the nations be roused; let them advance into the Valley of Jehoshaphat, for there I will sit to judge all the nations on every side.
Swing the sickle, for the harvest is ripe. Come, trample the grapes,
for the winepress is full and the vats overflow—so great is their wickedness!” Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision! For the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision. The sun and moon will be darkened, and the stars no longer shine. THE LORD WILL ROAR FROM ZION AND THUNDER FROM JERUSALEM; THE EARTH AND THE SKY WILL TREMBLE. BUT THE LORD WILL BE A REFUGE FOR HIS PEOPLE, A STRONGHOLD FOR THE PEOPLE OF ISRAEL. “Then you will know that I, the Lord your God, dwell in Zion, my holy hill. Jerusalem will be holy; never again will foreigners invade her. (Joel 2:11, 27-32; 3:1, 2, 9-17)
Why should we as the body of Christ read this prophecy the way Satan wants it read?
Why shouldn’t we read this prophecy the way Christ wants it read? On the first day of the church, Peter proclaimed God’s hidden wisdom: a unique section of Joel’s prophecy about “the day of the Lord” applied exclusively to the church—and applied exclusively to Christ’s coming for the church. It is a prophecy that once was hidden, and then was revealed.
It is a prophecy within a prophecy.
Why not proclaim to your Bible study group what Peter proclaimed on Pentecost?
The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord. And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
To everyone in the body of Christ … We call on the name of the Lord and we will be saved when the sun turns to darkness and the moon turns blood red. According to Christ’s revelation to John, it is the time of the sixth seal.
This is the hidden wisdom of God: “the day of the Lord” marks a span of time that shall witness not a single, divine event, but a single, divine event for each group that God will rescue: the church and Israel. This is the dual prophecy; this is Heaven’s hidden wisdom as revealed by Christ after he ascended into Heaven.
Why else did Peter quote Joel but to show us this?
This revelation that Christ revealed about the church on Pentecost is nowhere to be found in the Gospels. In other words, the revelation that Christ revealed about Joel’s prophecy (from Heaven) went beyond the revelation he revealed while in the Holy Land.
If anyone following this disagrees with the divine harmony Christ’s revelation given to Peter and John, then please share with me your thoughts about Peter’s prophecy…
Why did Peter quote Joel on Pentecost?
What is Peter telling the church on the first day of the church?
I honestly would like to know your thoughts regarding Peter’s prophecy on Pentecost.
This post is about Christ's final revelation to John...
Is it possible that Christ’s final revelation to John ends all debate regarding the chronological sequence of events that pertain to “the day of the Lord”?
Is it possible that all pieces of the end-time prophetic puzzle given throughout the Old and New Testaments are in agreement with the Revelation framework?
Why else would Christ number the prophecies but to show us the chronological order of end-time events?
Christ’s final revelation to John marks the last book of the Bible, but it is the first place we look to understand how all pieces of the puzzle—given by both prophets and apostles—fit together. In other words, Revelation explains the relative nature of what the prophets said and what the apostles said about “the day of the Lord.” Therefore, Christ’s final revelation to us is the key that unlocks the entire Bible regarding “the day of the Lord.”
There are questions fundamental to “the day of the Lord” that we as Christ’s church cannot afford to avoid…
If Christ’s revelation to John places the church in Heaven after the sixth seal opens, then how can any prophet or apostle contradict this?
If Christ’s revelation places the church in Heaven after the sixth seal opens, then how can the church be on the Earth during the wrath of the seventh seal?
On Pentecost, Christ’s revelation said the church will be “saved.”
What does it mean that we as the church will be “saved”?
To begin, Peter’s prophecy on Pentecost applies only to those who follow the New Covenant. Christ shall descend from Heaven for the followers of the New Covenant when the sun turns black and the moon turns blood red. According to Christ’s revelation to John, it is the time of the sixth seal.
THE SIXTH SEAL: SALVATION EXCLUSIVE TO THE CHURCH
John: Rev. 6:12-14
Peter: Acts 2:20, 21: “The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord. And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
According to Christ’s revelation, what does it mean that we as the church will be “saved”?
Christ’s revelation given to us after he ascended to Heaven revealed the fullness of our salvation.
Paul: 1 Thess. 1:10; 5:9
Paul: Rom. 5:9: “Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.”
Paul: 1 Thess. 4:15-17: According to the Lord’s own word. . . [T]he Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. (1 Thess. 4:15-17)
“According to the Lord’s own word” …
Who among us in the body of Christ believes that the transformation of the church is the salvation of the church--and that it is “according to the Lord’s own word”?
The sixth seal marks the resurrection of the followers of the New Covenant. How else can all of Christ’s church stand before the throne of Heaven unless the dead in Christ were first resurrected?
After the church is gathered in the clouds/sky, what happens next?
John: Rev. 7:9-17
Look at our cry of triumph… This is our cry of salvation in Heaven when we are with our Lord:
“SALVATION BELONGS TO OUR GOD, WHO SITS ON THE THRONE, AND TO THE LAMB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!” (REV. 7:10)
That’s us.
This is what we as Christ’s church will proclaim when we stand before the throne of Heaven.
This is what Christ meant on Pentecost when he said we will be “saved.”
After Christ descends from Heaven to transform and transport the church, then comes the seventh seal. It is the time of wrath foretold by the prophets and apostles.
Salvation exclusive to Israel will not come to pass for another seven years. At the end of the seven years, the Jews who are still “standing” will be rescued from the grip of the Antichrist at the battle of Armageddon when the Lord roars from Zion.
THE SEVENTH SEAL: THE WRATH: SEVEN YEARS
Christ’s revelation to John: Rev. 8 – 18.
This is the time of “Jacob’s trouble”—not the church’s trouble. How can the church get into trouble? It’s in Heaven.
During the “wrath,” the world shall witness three and a half years of God’s prophets and then three and a half years of Satan’s prophets:
And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth. (Rev. 11:3)
The beast [the Antichrist] was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise his authority for forty-two months. . . . Then I saw another beast, coming out of the earth. He had two horns like a lamb, but he spoke like a dragon. (Rev. 13:5, 11)
This seven-year prophecy of John was first given by the prophet Daniel. Known as the seventieth “seven,” this is the final seven years of prophecy decreed for Daniel’s people, which is Israel (Dan. 9:24).
While in the Holy Land, Christ himself foretold of this future time: Matthew: 24:21-28.
From Heaven, Christ gave revelation to Paul about this time:
2 Thess. 2:3, 4, 9-12.
THE SEVENTH SEAL: SALVATION EXCLUSIVE TO ISRAEL
John: Rev. 19:11-21
Paul: 2 Thess. 1:7-9; 2:8
Jude: 14, 15
Matthew: 24:29-31
Luke: 17:22-37
Isaiah: 66:15, 16
Joel: 2:32b, 3:1-16
Zech.: 14:3-5
At the end of the seventieth “seven,” Christ shall descend from Heaven again, this time to save Israel—and Christ shall do so with his church.
The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. . . . Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints. (Rev. 19:14, 8)
We are the saints, and after being in Heaven for seven years, we shall descend from Heaven with our Lord to destroy the Antichrist and rescue Israel.
Whereas the sixth seal marks the resurrection of the followers of the New Covenant, the seventh seal marks the resurrection of the followers of Old Covenant (Dan. 12:1, 2)—as well as those martyred under the beast.
Finally…
…Christ's church is fractured along so many different lines. Imagine for a moment that we all embrace Christ’s final revelation to John: the church is in Heaven after the sixth seal opens. If we as Christ’s church believe Christ’s revelation, we could finally speak with one voice—Christ’s voice—on the subject of our own future “salvation.”
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THE APOSTLES PAUL AND JOHN, AND THE PROPHET ISAIAH
What did Paul communicate when he said “the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night”?
Firstly, Paul did not say Christ will return like a thief in the night, but that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.
Why did Paul refer to “the day of the Lord”?
What is “the day of the Lord”?
Is it the single day of Christ’s return?
Or does it refer to a span of time that applies to Heaven’s intervention upon Earth?
The Old Testament prophets give God’s precedent—God’s answer. Isaiah (among other prophets) testified that “the day of the Lord” is not one day but a span of time that speaks of God’s intervention into earthly affairs.
Why would Paul refer to “the day of the Lord”? Because God’s intervention into earthly affairs shall begin with Christ’s descent from Heaven to gather the church into Heaven to save it from the wrath to come.
To set the stage to understand Paul’s prophecy about “the day of the Lord,” this text moves back in time to the precedent established by God. What follows are prophecies given by Isaiah:
Wail, for the day of the Lord is near; it will come like destruction from the Almighty. Because of this, all hands will go limp, every man’s heart will melt. Terror will seize them, pain and anguish will grip them; they will writhe like a woman in labor. They will look aghast at each other, their faces aflame. See, the day of the Lord is coming—a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger—to make the land desolate and destroy the sinners within it. (Isa. 13:6–9)
Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty. The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the Lord alone shall be exalted in that day. For the day of the Lord of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low: . . . And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth. In that day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made each one for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats; To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth. (Isa. 2:10–12, 19–21 KJV)
The “day of the Lord” described by Isaiah is the same “day of the Lord” described by the New Testament apostles: it is the prophecy of Heaven’s intervention.
The prophecies given by Isaiah bare a striking resemblance to John’s prophecy in the Book of Revelation because John marked the onset of the day of the Lord:
I [John] watched as he [Christ] opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?” (Rev. 6:12–17)
This wrath described by John is the same wrath described by Isaiah.
Without question, the day of the Lord is the span of time marking Heaven’s intervention. The Old Testament prophets clearly spoke of this, but it wasn’t until Heaven gave revelation to the New Testament apostles about the church that the fullness of this intervention was made known.
When the sixth seal opens, the Lord Jesus Christ will gather God’s possessions, and the sky will be filled with souls marked by Heaven. Then the sky will recede upward like a scroll, and the church shall ascend to Heaven. The remaining population will erupt into chaos, seeking to be hidden from the God whom they rejected. (Whereas the sixth seal announces the coming wrath, the seventh seal initiates its actual commencement.)
This wrath spoken by John in the Book of Revelation is the same wrath spoken by Paul; it is the wrath the sons of God are saved from: “and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath” (1 Thess. 1:10).
Jesus Christ shall rescue the church “from” the coming wrath. “From” in the Greek language is apo and means “away from,” denoting “motion from the exterior.” In other words, the church is not just protected from the wrath while “sitting” on the Earth, but is saved “away from” the wrath by literally being drawn up away from the Earth’s surface: “motion from the exterior” of the Earth to Heaven, which is the gathering.
In contrast to the church gathered into Heaven, those who remain on the planet will understand the impending wrath. How do we know this?
John’s prophecy reveals the collective voice of those left behind: “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?”
If the religious tradition of the “signless” return is true, and no one on Earth can see Christ descend from Heaven, and the church simply disappears, then how could those left on Earth know “the great day of their wrath has come?”
Why would those who reject Christ say, “hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb”?
Those who are left on Earth must awake to Heaven’s judgment and Christ’s presence. How? God shall mark the onset of the day of the Lord with divine signs:
There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, and the stars in the sky fell to earth. (Rev. 6:12, 13)
[Christ] is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him (Rev. 1:7).
This is the testimony of God: Those who are on the Earth will see and understand Heaven’s divine power and the presence of Christ and then will recognize their own reality and fate.
Without question, before Heaven’s judgment strikes the Earth, divine signs will mark the divine threshold: “The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.”
The belief that Christ’s arrival to save the church is a “signless” event is rooted in religious history—not in the Scriptures. Our religious ancestors neglected the harmony between the Old and New Testaments, misunderstood one figure of speech, and consequently were deceived—and the deception continues to this day.
For those of us in the body of Christ who hold to the supreme authority of Scripture, there is no intent to create traditions or stories, but to be worthy of the divinely inspired story already written. Let us not silence the witnesses God gave us who prophesied about “the day of the Lord.” The testimony of God stands: signs—not the absence of them—shall mark Heaven’s timetable.
Heaven gave revelation to the New Testament apostles about the day of the Lord to inform the church about this future time.
Here is Paul’s prophecy:
Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people [who are not in the body of Christ] are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly [from wrath], as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day [the day of the Lord] should surprise you like a thief. You are all sons of the light and sons of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be alert [watch] and self-controlled. For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. But since we belong to the day, let us be self-controlled, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath [during Heaven’s intervention on Earth] but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him. (1 Thess. 5:1–10)
This prophecy is not speaking about signs, nor is it speaking exclusively about Christ’s return for the church. Rather, it speaks of Heaven’s intervention and the destiny of those within the body of Christ and the destiny of those not within the body of Christ. When Christ descends from Heaven to gather the church, the opposing fates shall be delivered concurrently.
With regard to the church, Paul said: “But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise [overtake] you like a thief.” The word “surprise” means “to lay hold of, [to] seize suddenly, [and to] come suddenly upon.”
The day of the Lord will not overtake the church like a thief. Why? “For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.” Wrath will not lay hold upon the church because of the salvation of the church.
What salvation? The same salvation Paul described just a few sentences earlier in his letter to the Thessalonians: the gathering in the clouds when we “meet the Lord in the air” (1 Thess. 4:17). Salvation means deliverance.
Next: When in our religious history did unsound doctrine regarding Christ’s return for the church first emerge?
To be continued…
Note: Heaven’s revelation about “the day of the Lord” is found throughout the Old Testament: Isaiah (2:12; 13:6, 9), Ezekiel (13:5; 30:3), Joel (1:15; 2:1, 11, 31; 3:14), Amos (5:18, 20), Obadiah (15), Zephaniah (1:7, 14), Zechariah (14:1), and Malachi (4:5).
revvel
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sirguessalot
revvel
for your consideration....
i think it might help to reconsider the scriptural promises of future events
ALSO in terms of your own/my own/their own/our own personal possible interior events
but if they are still only exterior future events FOR YOU...
well..that explains that one quite well
what else could you believe?
same ole ongoing mistake, imo
which is not some moral failure or anything, imo
just a critical miss
the lake of fire = a love of God that is HERE and NOW
tho it might hurt like hell HERE and NOW
tho, it would be nice if everyone in the world realized this HERE and NOW
cuz then Christ would truly return to the whole world
no...not as a magic superman man from the sky
but as the interior reality waiting to be born
i just love the imagery of Scripture, tho
the book of rev is like a good children's coloring book, imo
but considering the vastness and complexity of belief structures many fundamental christians build
it must be a huge huge job to restructure or rearrange all those scriptural interpretations
peace
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sirguessalot
i would say it probably started prior to Jesus's life
but was expressed quite nicely in "the ascension scene"
when they still seemed to mistake the actual interior path in which Christ taught them to enter heaven
for that which they saw in the exterior
and the M.I.W. ("Men In White") tried to help them out
but that is a whole nuther thread, it seems
(or maybe not)
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revvel
Hello sirguessalot,
I know that you posted to provoke thought—and that’s good.
Allow me to do likewise… by posing a couple of questions...
If the prophecies about the first coming of the Messiah turned out to be about the literal, personal presence of Jesus the Christ, then is it logical, or illogical, to believe that the prophecies about the second coming of the Messiah will turn out to be about the literal, personal presence of Jesus the Christ?
If God spoke of the lake of fire as literal, and in the future tense, then why should we conclude that it is figurative, and in the present tense?
This is the testimony of what shall come to pass:
And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Rev. 20:10)
According to Heaven’s revelation, the lake of fire is just as literal as Satan, the beast, and the false prophet. How can Heaven throw (a literal) Satan into a figure of speech? The lake of fire is a literal, burning “prison” that will be (future tense) the permanent residence of Satan and company.
This is what I believe:
The angel said to me [John], These words are trustworthy and true.” (Rev. 22:6)
The truth… it is about the truth… and where to find it… and that’s what you want, sirguessalot… isn’t it?
God bless.
revvel
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revvel
THE APOSTLES PAUL AND JOHN: DISMISSED
When in our religious history did unsound doctrine regarding Christ’s return for the church first emerge? The first century.
Church leadership actually dismissed both Paul and John—and Paul and John documented this deplorable state of affairs.
The apostle John revealed the mind-set of a church leader so twisted that he rejected not only an apostle of Christ but also cast Christ’s followers out of the church.
“I [John] wrote to the church, but Diotrephes, who loves to be first, will have nothing to do with us. So if I come, I will call attention to what he is doing, gossiping maliciously about us. Not satisfied with that, he refuses to welcome the brothers. He also stops those who want to do so and puts them out of the church” (3 John 9, 10).
How did Diotrephes handle John (someone who spoke out about the truth)? Vicious personal attacks and dismissal…
Sound familiar?
If that wasn’t bad enough, church leadership in Asia Minor saw fit to pull the entire flock of Christ away from the apostle Paul.
“You know that everyone in the province of Asia has deserted me [Paul]” (2 Tim. 1:15).
Church “leaders” “trashed” the apostles. How pathetic is that… Our religious ancestors saw fit to keep “their” flock away from John and Paul.
How many doctrinal mutations could have come out of this corrupt environment?
Paul, in his second letter to Timothy, wrote the following:
Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have wandered away from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some. (2 Tim. 2:16–18)
Hymenaeus and Philetus “wandered away from the truth” and taught “godless chatter” about the resurrection of those who died in Christ.
Why would God document this revolting picture from our spiritual past?
What is to be learned from this historical record?
We within the church must be honest with ourselves and examine what we have assumed to be true. This must include the doctrine of the “signless” rapture.
Just what exactly did we inherit from our religious ancestors?
Compare the “signless” rapture to what Paul said to the Thessalonians.
“Now, brothers, about times and dates.”
So what is Paul going to talk about? Signs? Or time?
“While people are saying, ‘Peace and safety,’ destruction will come on them suddenly.”
Is it “signless” destruction?
Or is it sudden destruction?
Paul is not speaking of the “signless” nature of Heaven’s intervention, but of the sudden nature of Heaven’s intervention.
It is not a “signless” rapture; it is a sudden rapture: "We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed" (1 Cor. 15:51, 52).
How could it have happened that we ended up believing and teaching the “signless” arrival of Christ?
Why should we just accept the corruption of Scripture handed to us by our religious ancestors?
The dogma of the “signless” rapture is nothing more than godless chatter and this teaching has spread like gangrene.
Enough of this “signless” dogma…
This is what I believe: There is one author, God, who gave us the “books” in the Bible. The Creator speaks with one voice, but with different perspectives on identical subjects. Consider Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Why four Gospels? They speak to the same subject, only with different perspectives so as to paint the fullness of the whole picture. God designed the whole Bible this way: different writers speaking to identical subjects providing unique pieces of the divine puzzle.
The divine harmony between the Old and New Testaments cannot be broken. It is by the multitude of writers (witnesses) that our God has given us in the Bible—who testify to the truth—and reveal the harmony within and between the Old and New Testaments, that we as Christ’s church can take God’s Word for “it,” and know what is truly sound doctrine. It is our enemy, Satan, who wants us to isolate verses, divide apostles one from another, and separate the prophecies of the Old Testament from the New Testament in order to produce unsound doctrine.
As pointed out by sirguessalot, there was confusion at the ascension scene.... This record serves to reinforce the importance of allowing the multitude of witnesses to guide our thoughts... especially the collective voice of Peter, Paul, and John... regarding the day of the Lord.
We as God’s human creation are at war with spiritual darkness and Satan seeks to out maneuver us at every turn of history. Satan has spent countless years covering up the signs that shall mark the commencement of the day of the Lord and the gathering of the church. Let our generation be remembered as the generation that ended the cover-up.
This text now turns to prophecies spoken by our Lord Jesus Christ, and the references he made to the Old Testament prophets.
To be continued…
revvel
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sirguessalot
Hi revvel
thanks for taking the time
I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "it," "it" and "it"......but yeah, i do want the truth
...but not only The truth.
so...i hope you dont mind if i dont answer the rest of your questions
...though i still will, if you wish
i probably shouldnt have posted on this thread
it looks like you have a specific message and a lesson you want to get out
...some sort of polemic shout
and i am being a lousy student and guest
i am not even addressing the specific points you are making
but responding to the overall genre of interpretation
so...grace and peace...if that's acceptable to you
+ODD
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CWF
revvel
Christendom had forsaken most of the spiritual truth's of Gods Word, and especially the truths that pertain to this present dispensation. Salvation was replaced with the sinners prayer and or works, and denominational beliefs replaced the Body of Christ.
The signs of the Return have been on going since the Lord sat down on the right hand of God. Believers can't predict the when of it, but they shouldn't ignore the many signs that smack dab them in the face.
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revvel
Hello sirguessalot,
My apologies for taking liberty with the word "it."
My own context is this: Taking God's Word for "it" ... "it" is whatever subject you would like to study in the Scriptures... and finding the truth.
And... relative to the sentence you quoted...
Allow me to summarize:
Life filled with truth.
That's "it."
Grace and peace to you too.
revvel
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revvel
Hello CWF,
Many thanks for your thoughts. I agree.
Far too many of us who want the truth of the Scriptures spent countless hours pouring over dogma...
Where knowledge ends, imagination begins...
Personally, I have no interest in the religious circus... just the truth of the Scriptures... thank you.
JESUS CHRIST AND DANIEL, ISAIAH, AND MOSES
The day of the Lord refers not only to Christ’s descent from Heaven for the church but also to Christ’s descent for Israel.
Throughout the Old Testament, the prophets foretold what would become of the followers of the Old Covenant. Elements of these prophecies can be found in the very words of Christ in Matthew 24.
To set the stage to view Christ’s prophecy in the Gospel of Matthew, this text moves back to Old Testament times. What follows are prophecies given by Daniel, Isaiah, and Moses, respectively. These prophets foretold of the following: the Antichrist, the time of wrath, the signs that mark Christ’s return to the Holy Land, and the gathering of the remnant of Israel.
What Christ referenced in his prophecy is capitalized.
DANIEL:
He [the Antichrist] will confirm a covenant with many for one “seven” [seven years]. In the middle of the “seven” he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an ABOMINATION THAT CAUSES DESOLATION, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him [the Antichrist]. (Dan. 9:27)
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people [Daniel’s people: Israel]: AND THERE SHALL BE A TIME OF TROUBLE, SUCH AS NEVER WAS SINCE THERE WAS A NATION EVEN TO THAT SAME TIME: AND AT THAT TIME THY PEOPLE [iSRAEL] SHALL BE DELIVERED, every one that shall be found written in the book. (Dan. 12:1 KJV)
ISAIAH:
FOR THE STARS OF HEAVEN AND THE CONSTELLATIONS THEREOF SHALL NOT GIVE THEIR LIGHT: THE SUN SHALL BE DARKENED IN HIS GOING FORTH, AND THE MOON SHALL NOT CAUSE HER LIGHT TO SHINE. And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir. THEREFORE I WILL SHAKE THE HEAVENS, AND THE EARTH SHALL REMOVE OUT OF HER PLACE, in the wrath of the Lord of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger. (Isa. 13:10–13 KJV)
In that day the Lord will thresh from the flowing Euphrates to the Wadi of Egypt, and you, O Israelites, will be GATHERED up one by one. And in that day A GREAT TRUMPET will sound. Those who were perishing in Assyria and those who were exiled in Egypt will come and worship the Lord on the holy mountain in Jerusalem. (Isa. 27:12, 13)
MOSES:
That then the Lord thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and GATHER THEE FROM ALL THE NATIONS, whither the Lord thy God hath scattered thee. IF ANY OF THINE BE DRIVEN OUT UNTO THE OUTMOST PARTS OF HEAVEN, FROM THENCE WILL THE LORD THY GOD GATHER THEE, and from thence will he fetch thee: And the Lord thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it. (Deut. 30:3–5 KJV)
During his ministry, Christ also prophesied of what would become of Israel. In a single prophecy about his second coming to Israel, the Son of God spoke forth the collective voice of the three Old Testament prophets referenced above.
Christ prophesied of the Antichrist, the time of wrath, the signs that would mark his return to the Holy Land, and the gathering of the remnant of Israel. He introduced his prophecy by referring to Daniel and the final years of prophecy that lead up to the Apocalypse. What Christ referenced from the Old Testament is capitalized.
When ye therefore shall see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION, spoken of by DANIEL THE PROPHET, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: FOR THEN SHALL BE GREAT TRIBULATION, SUCH AS WAS NOT SINCE THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD TO THIS TIME, NO, NOR EVER SHALL BE. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened. Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall THE SUN BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON SHALL NOT GIVE HER LIGHT, AND THE STARS SHALL FALL FROM HEAVEN, AND THE POWERS OF THE HEAVENS SHALL BE SHAKEN: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET [THE GREAT TRUMPET], and they shall GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT FROM THE FOUR WINDS [OF THE EARTH], FROM ONE END OF HEAVEN TO THE OTHER. (Matt. 24:21–31 KJV)
Daniel, Isaiah, and Moses testify that this prophecy speaks of gathering Israel—not the church.
Zechariah prophesied of this future time—revealing how Israel would suffer grievously, but that there would be those who would emerge victorious.
“In the whole land,” declares the Lord, “two-thirds will be struck down and perish; yet one-third will be left in it. This third I will bring into the fire; I will refine them like silver and test them like gold. They will call on my name and I will answer them; I will say, ‘They are my people, and they will say, ‘The Lord is our God.’” (Zech. 13:8, 9)
The prophecies given here by Christ and the Old Testament prophets drop right into the revelation given to John: it is the time of the seventh seal.
The revelation written down by Matthew (chapter 24) directly corresponds to the revelation written down by John (chapters 8 – 19). Christ’s revelation to John dramatically expounds upon the revelation he initially gave to Matthew.
Note: “A great sound of a trumpet” is a figure of speech known as Hendiadys, where it is “not two things, but one,” (E. W. Bullinger, The Companion Bible [Grand Rapids, Mich.: Kregel Publications, 1990], 1366. In essence, Christ referred to what Isaiah referred to: the great trumpet.
The great trumpet marks the arrival of Christ for Israel, and the last trumpet marks the arrival of Christ for the church. According to Hebrew authorities, the great trumpet and the last trumpet are not one and the same. They mark completely different sounds, and according to the Scriptures, they mark completely different arrivals of Christ.
Next: Paul and John: Thessalonians and Revelation.
revvel
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dmiller
Hey there Revvel --- interesting read -- however ---
I wish you would be willing to discuss this stuff --
and not just show up every once in a while,
and use this as a *teaching* platform.
I don't remember getting an answer about *return* vs. *rapture* -- way back early on.
Kinda defeats the purpose of the site. :(
(Just my IMO).
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revvel
Hello dmiller,
Good to hear from you again...
Let me say that I did respond to your inquiry on the return/rapture question. Please check my March 23, 10:45am and March 29, 6:14pm responses.
I admit that a few days can go by between posts... Allow me to share this: My access to the internet is through library computers, and therefore is subject to library hours and availability. Plus, as a rule, I don't normally respond immediately because I want to think through the heart of what is being said/asked. That's all.
God bless.
revvel
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dmiller
I will take a look. Thanks for the reply. :)
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allan w.
Again I must say that Billy Ayles site has excellent teachings on the where and WHEN of the parousia.
www.thetimeline.org
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revvel
Hello Allan,
Good to hear from you... I trust all is well down unda.
revvel
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revvel
PAUL AND JOHN: THESSALONIANS AND REVELATION
Both Paul and John received—and wrote down for us—divine revelation. In Christ’s revelation to John, he revealed not only what must be hereafter, but he placed the end-time prophecies in chronological order by numbering them. In essence, Christ took all the guesswork out of what will happen and the order in which it will happen. Herein, Paul’s prophecies are clearly ordered by John.
What else could we as Christ’s church believe… but that Paul and John… together… would give us the divine harmony of divine revelation… providing unique pieces of the same prophetic puzzle.
REVELATION
Here is what John heard: “Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter” (Rev. 1:19 KJV).
“The things which shall be hereafter” begin in chapter 4: “After this I [John] looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter” (Rev. 4:1 KJV).
What must be hereafter? End-time events.
For this thread, the most important picture of Christ’s revelation to John is this:
The Book of Revelation contains the chronological sequence of events pertaining to the day of the Lord. In this sequence of events, Christ revealed that he would descend from Heaven not once, but twice.
1. THE SIXTH SEAL: THE CHURCH
How do we know the sixth seal refers to the church, and the rapture of it? Christ gave us the “sign” of his arrival for the church (Rev. 6:12), first spoken by both Peter and Joel (Acts 2:20; Joel 2:31): the sun will turn black and the moon will turn blood red.
2. THE SEVENTH SEAL: ISRAEL
The
7 years of Daniel’s
70th “seven” corresponds to the
7-year prophecy that follows the
7th seal…
Both Daniel and John prophesied of the Antichrist in the context of the seven-year prophecy.
According to the Old Testament prophets, Christ, and John, the seven-year span of time pertains to Daniel’s “people” (Dan. 9:24): Israel. The culmination of this time is the arrival of Christ with the saints: Revelation 19.
The prophetic picture given by John was first given by Paul.
1 THESSALONIANS
1. Our Lord shall descend for us, the church, and gather us in the clouds—at the onset of the day of the Lord (1 Thess. 5:2, 4, 9; 4:16, 17). According to John, it is the time of the sixth seal.
2. The church is saved from the wrath to come (1 Thess. 1:10, 5:9). According to John, the wrath commences after the seventh seal opens.
2 THESSALONIANS
1. The rise and fall of the Antichrist (2 Thess. 2:3, 4, 8–10). John expounded upon Paul’s prophecy in Revelation: chapters 13 – 19.
2. Christ shall descend with his angels in judgment (2 Thess. 1:7–9; 2:8). Revelation states that Christ will descend from Heaven with the saints (the church) and this will come to pass seven years after the seventh seal opens (19:8, 11–21).
Paul’s second letter to the Thessalonians focused on Christ’s second descent and the destruction of evil. In doing so, Paul reinforced what he already gave the church in his first letter: comfort. Paul gave comfort in the knowledge of the following: Christ shall gather and save the church before the time of wrath, and the Antichrist cannot rise to power until after the church is gathered.
Whereas the church will be saved “away from” the wrath by being drawn off the Earth at the time of the sixth seal, Israel will be saved “out” of the wrath seven years after the seventh seal opens—when Christ descends with the saints.
It is Israel, not the church that will be on the Earth during the time of the seventh seal. This is the time of great distress for Israel foretold by Jeremiah; it is “the time of Jacob’s [israel’s] trouble; but he shall be saved out of it” (Jer. 30:7 KJV).
Yet, some of our religious ancestors used Paul’s second letter to the Thessalonians to teach the church will be on the Earth during the rise of the Antichrist and will remain on the Earth throughout the wrath of the seventh seal.
If Christ’s revelation to Paul places the church in the clouds at the onset of the day of the Lord, and Christ’s revelation to John places the church in Heaven before the seventh seal opens, then how could Paul’s second letter to the Thessalonians state the complete opposite?
How is it possible that our religious ancestors could have come up with this interpretation of 2 Thessalonians?
We have to ask this: Why did Paul need to write a second letter?
Next: Paul’s second letter to the Thessalonians.
revvel
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CM
you know not of what you speak revvel
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Sunesis
Revvel, I'm really enjoying your writings, keep it up.
From various readings I've been doing, especially a great book called "The Invisible War" by Donald Barnhouse - which is one of the best I've ever read on an overview of creation through our times now, I have come to the conclusion, we must be taken out of the way. I believed firmly for a long time that we would be saved right before the "wrath," but undergo the tribulation - I guess I was a mid-tribber.
Also, I've come to a great understanding of how important each individual soul is. I mention this because we touched on the lake of fire earlier.
I read an incredible book about a man's near death experience - it was profound. What he experienced was right out of Ezekiel 32.
He died, and was shown a place where God is not (described in Ezekiel 32). He knew, that by his thoughts and life, he had made the choice to be there.
It is a place where God is not. It is where those who choose to live without God on earth and for eternity await the last resurrection and judgment. Their souls are quite alive.
We know, God says of himself, he is not the God of the dead, but of the living. A fleshly body may die, but God cannot, and will not, kill a soul.
The essence of it is: God is love. If someone chooses to hate God, does not want to be with him, has no desire to know him, etc., well, God cannot force an individual soul to do so.
Thus, for one who hates God, dislikes him, or is indifferent, the loving thing for God to do is to allow those souls to live without him - this is what they want. Thus, God is not unfair, does not "send people to hell" - its all the individual's choice. God is giving that soul, its deepest desire.
This is, I think, is what we would consider "hell." The essence of his story, and book is, be very, very, careful what you wish for, you just may get it.
This man had been born again as a child, and had rejected, and even hated God the rest of his life and had always tried to talk his friends out of believing in Christ.
I have read several other, very similar experiences. I won't go into detail, but if you want to know the name of the book I'll let you know.
This also explained to my why the psalmist David and others prayed their souls would be delivered out of the pit. There is a place, people back then understood, of which the understanding of has been lost today, but I believe God is revealing it once again.
But, I see that the one main purpose of our journey here on earth is for each individual to decide one thing, and one thing only: Do I want to live with God now and for eternity, or without him, now and for eternity? That is the choice, I believe all people - whether they believe in Christ or not, make.
Our sojourn on this planet is but a short stop, on our way to eternity either with God, or to a place where God is not.
To me, the burning lake of fire, is symbolic - it is a place, dimension, or whatever, where God is not. A place where corruption can never again be allowed to corrupt God's holy creation. When you really consider the implications of what life would be like without God - no love, light - no "true" life - this is worse than any fire, or an awful nightmare one cannot wake up from. God uses this symbolism to get across the point, that this place is a place no one would want to go.
My 2 cents - sorry for the long post - the lake of fire just sparked some thoughts.
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revvel
Hello Sunesis,
Thank you again for your thoughts, and for your heart-felt presentation regarding our free-will choice: the decision to live with or without our Creator now and for eternity. Truly, the decision yields permanent life with, or permanent separation from, God.
I would like to respond regarding the lake of fire...
Take a look at what King David said:
Charge them with crime upon crime; do not let them share in your salvation. May they be blotted out of the book of life and not be listed with the righteous. (Ps. 69:27, 28)
3000 years ago David prayed this prayer.
2000 years ago Christ revealed this to us:
If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. . . . The lake of fire is the second death. (Rev. 20:15, 14)
The book of life gives us a reference point to understand the prophecy about the lake of fire. In his prophecy about the lake, Christ revealed that David’s prayer will be answered: On judgment day, those not found in the book of life will be without salvation and shall die the second death—which means they will be dead forever. Those not found in the book of life on judgment day shall have no life abiding in them. Christ and David are in agreement on this, and no one in the Bible disagrees with them.
“[F]or the wages of sin is death” (Rom. 6:23). Christ didn’t say the wages of sin is eternal life separated from God.
There is a significant difference between Hades (the place of the first death) and the lake of fire (the place of the second death): everyone in Hades will live again (by resurrection to life or condemnation); everyone cast into the lake of fire, however, will never live again. In other words, there is salvation after the first death (for those who chose it), and there is no salvation after the second death (because those in the lake chose none). God shall honor their free-will decision.
God is not the God of the dead but of the living—in the resurrection. Christ said this to the Sadducees who didn’t believe in the resurrection of the dead.
That same day the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to him [Jesus] with a question (Matt. 22:23)…. Jesus replied, “You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. But about the resurrection of the dead—have you not read what God said to you, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.” (Matt. 22:29–32)
“The only conclusion being that they must rise and live again in resurrection in order that He may be their God [bullinger].”
Christ was not teaching the Sadducees that there would be eternal life for all souls, but that God is the God of the living at the resurrection of the righteous (which these religious authorities rejected).
What does salvation in Christ mean? Eternal life.
What does no salvation mean? Eternal life? Or eternal death?
Christ answered that question: the second death.
On the subject of death itself…
There is no life or awareness in the first death:
Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the grave, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom. (Eccl. 9:10)
How can there be no life or awareness in the first death, and yet there be life and awareness in the second death? They are both “death.”
In Christ’s revelation about the lake of fire (Rev. 20:10–15), everyone and everything thrown into the lake is literal. Honestly, it is not our place as God’s creation to decide that the lake of fire is figurative when everything else in the prophecy is clearly literal. . .
Take a look at the same Greek word for “fire,” found in the context of judgment:
It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all. (Luke 17:28, 29)
How could Christ be referring to a figurative “fire” that “destroyed them all”? The fire Christ spoke of was literal energy that “destroyed” (or changed the form of) matter.
Just as literal fire from Heaven changed the form of matter among the morally bankrupt cities, so shall the literal fire in the literal lake of fire change the form of matter for those not found in the book of life, and they shall remain eternally in the literal second death.
I know you see it differently. Perhaps on this subject we should agree to disagree.
God bless.
revvel
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revvel
MOSES, ISAIAH, JEREMIAH, EZEKIEL, DANIEL, PAUL, and JOHN
Prior to moving on to Paul’s second letter to the Thessalonians, I would like to introduce Paul’s letter by setting the stage; it is a stage given by Jeremiah: "it is even the time of Jacob’s trouble; but he shall be saved out of it" (Jer. 30:7 KJV).
This prophecy of Jeremiah had an immediate fulfillment relative to the Babylonian captivity, and this prophecy has an ultimate fulfillment relative to the captivity under the Antichrist. God delivered the followers of the Old Covenant out of trouble when he set them free from Babylon, and God will again deliver the followers of the Old Covenant out of trouble when he sets them free from the Antichrist. Paul prophesied of this ultimate fulfillment (2 Thess. 1:7–9).
Many Old Testament writings contain a dual purpose: an immediate fulfillment before the time of Christ and an ultimate fulfillment in the presence of the Christ.
How do we know this?
The precedent given to us by God through Moses enables us to see God’s vision. “The law is . . . a shadow of the good things that are coming” (Heb. 10:1).
This precedent established by Moses carries throughout the Old Testament. The Old Testament writings foreshadowed what would ultimately come to pass in New Testament times.
Not only was Satan blind to the MYSTERY (1 Cor. 2:7, 8; Eph. 3:4–6; Col. 1:27), he was blind to God’s hidden wisdom regarding “Jacob”—which was interwoven in the prophecies of Moses and of other Old Testament prophets, including Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and Daniel.
What follows is Jeremiah’s prophecy regarding “Jacob’s trouble.” What you are about to read applies to Jacob's captivity under Babylon and the Antichrist. The terminology that reflects end-times is capitalized.
JEREMIAH: Jacob’s Trouble
The word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord, saying, Thus speaketh the Lord God of Israel, saying, Write thee all the words that I have spoken unto thee in a book. For, lo, the days come, saith the Lord, that I WILL BRING [bACK FROM] AGAIN THE CAPTIVITY OF MY PEOPLE ISRAEL AND JUDAH, SAITH THE LORD: AND I WILL CAUSE THEM TO RETURN TO THE LAND THAT I GAVE TO THEIR FATHERS, and they shall possess it. And these are the words that the Lord spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah. For thus saith the Lord; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace. Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, AS A WOMAN IN TRAVAIL, and all FACES ARE TURNED INTO PALENESS? Alas! for THAT DAY is great, so that NONE IS LIKE IT: IT IS EVEN THE TIME OF JACOB’S TROUBLE; but he shall be saved out of it. For it shall come to pass in THAT DAY, saith the Lord of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him: But they shall serve the Lord their God, and DAVID THEIR KING, WHOM I WILL RAISE UP UNTO THEM. Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the Lord; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; AND JACOB SHALL RETURN, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid. (Jer. 30:1–10 KJV)
The capitalized terminology reflects end-time prophecies given by Isaiah, Daniel, and Ezekiel. Each prophecy is in the context of the day of the Lord, which includes the time of the Antichrist.
ISAIAH
Terror will seize them, pain and anguish will grip them; they will writhe LIKE A WOMAN IN LABOR. They will look aghast at each other, THEIR FACES AFLAME. See, THE DAY OF THE LORD is coming—a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger—to make the land desolate and destroy the sinners within it. (Isa. 13:8, 9)
The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the Lord alone shall be exalted in THAT DAY. For THE DAY OF THE LORD OF HOSTS shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low. (Isa. 2:11, 12 KJV)
DANIEL
At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people [DANIEL’S PEOPLE: JACOB], will arise. There will be a TIME OF DISTRESS SUCH AS HAS NOT HAPPENED from the beginning of nations until then. (Dan. 12:1)
EZEKIEL
MY SERVANT DAVID WILL BE KING OVER THEM, and they will all have one shepherd. They will follow my laws and be careful to keep my decrees. THEY WILL LIVE IN THE LAND I GAVE TO MY SERVANT JACOB, THE LAND WHERE YOUR FATHERS LIVED. They and their children and their children’s children will live there forever, and DAVID MY SERVANT WILL BE THEIR PRINCE FOREVER. (Ezek. 37:24, 25)
Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says: I WILL NOW BRING JACOB BACK FROM CAPTIVITY AND WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON ALL THE PEOPLE OF ISRAEL, and I will be zealous for my holy name. (Ezek. 39:25)
Through his prophets, God’s vision of deliverance for his people stretched far into the future. Prophecies given over 2500 years ago about Jacob’s deliverance are still future tense. Jeremiah gave one of those prophecies: “Jacob’s trouble.”
Jeremiah is speaking about Jacob’s trouble, not the church’s trouble: “But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend” (Isa. 41:8 KJV). It is Jacob, not the church that will have “trouble” under the reign of the Antichrist.
Jeremiah’s prophecy applied to the followers of the Old Covenant before the time of Christ and it will again apply to the followers of the Old Covenant in the presence of the Christ.
The NIV Study Bible states the following about “Jacob’s trouble”: “A description of the day of the Lord. . . . Jeremiah’s immediate reference is to the foreseeable future [babylon] (see vv. 8, 18), but a more remote time in the Messianic age is also in view.”
Prophecies that have the “Messianic age in view” are given by numerous Old Testament prophets, and find parallels with the New Testament apostles. The prophecy of Jacob’s trouble drops right into the chronological sequence of end-time events:
1.Christ’s descent from Heaven with the church to rescue Jacob out of the grip of the Antichrist, and, in addition, gather Jacob.
2.The 1000-year kingdom of Christ.
3.The destruction of Gog and Magog.
The prophecies given by Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Paul, and John combine to give us this picture.
EZEKIEL, JEREMIAH, PAUL, AND JOHN
Prophecies given by Ezekiel and John are clearly linked by virtue of the fact that they both spoke of Gog and Magog. In addition, the prophecies given by Ezekiel and Jeremiah (about Jacob’s trouble) overlap, and therefore, both make reference to what will ultimately be fulfilled in the presence of the Christ.
Ezekiel’s prophecy had an immediate fulfillment before the time of Christ, and will have an ultimate fulfillment in the presence of the Christ.
EZEKIEL: 38
The word of the Lord came to me: “Son of man, set your face against GOG, OF THE LAND OF MAGOG, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal; prophesy against him and say: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am against you, O Gog, chief prince of Meshech and Tubal. I will turn you around, put hooks in your jaws and bring you out with your whole army—your horses, your horsemen fully armed, and a great horde with large and small shields, all of them brandishing their swords.’” (Ezek. 38:1–4)
This is what will happen in that day: When GOG ATTACKS THE LAND OF ISRAEL, my hot anger will be aroused, declares the Sovereign Lord. . . . I will execute judgment upon him with plague and bloodshed; I WILL POUR DOWN TORRENTS OF RAIN, HAILSTONES AND BURNING SULFUR ON HIM AND ON HIS TROOPS AND ON THE MANY NATIONS WITH HIM. And so I will show my greatness and my holiness, and I will make myself known in the sight of many nations. Then they will know that I am the Lord. (Ezek. 38:18, 22, 23)
John’s reference to Ezekiel, and the ultimate fulfillment of his prophecy, is found in Revelation 20.
REVELATION: 20
And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive THE NATIONS which are in the four quarters of the earth, GOG AND MAGOG, TO GATHER THEM TOGETHER TO BATTLE: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. AND THEY WENT UP ON THE BREADTH OF THE EARTH, AND COMPASSED THE CAMP OF THE SAINTS ABOUT, AND THE BELOVED CITY: AND FIRE CAME DOWN FROM GOD OUT OF HEAVEN, AND DEVOURED THEM. (Rev. 20:7–9 KJV)
God linked Ezekiel and John by using the same terminology: Gog and Magog. Without question, Ezekiel’s prophecy will be ultimately fulfilled in the presence of the Christ. After the 1000-year kingdom of Christ, the enemies of God will be destroyed, and this time, never will they rise again.
The following is taken from Nelsons’ New Illustrated Bible Dictionary:
“Gog—The leader of a confederacy of armies that attacked the land of Israel. Described as “the prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal,” Gog is also depicted as being “of the land of Magog” (Ezek. 38:2–3), a “place out of the far north” of Israel. Ezekiel prophetically describes Gog and his allies striking at Israel with a fierce and sudden invasion (Ezekiel 38-39). According to Ezekiel’s prophecy, Gog will be crushed on the mountains of Israel in a slaughter so great it will take seven months to bury the dead (Ezek. 39:12). In the Book of Revelation, Gog and Magog reappear as symbols of the nations of the world that will march against God’s people in the end times (Rev. 20:7–8).”
Take a look at the greater context of Ezekiel’s prophecy. God is referring to the millennial kingdom.
EZEKIEL: 37
This is what the Sovereign Lord says: O my people, I AM GOING TO OPEN YOUR GRAVES AND BRING YOU UP FROM THEM; I WILL BRING YOU BACK TO THE LAND OF ISRAEL. Then you, my people, will know that I am the Lord, when I open your graves and bring you up from them. I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT IN YOU AND YOU WILL LIVE, AND I WILL SETTLE YOU IN YOUR OWN LAND. Then you will know that I the Lord have spoken, and I have done it, declares the Lord. (Ezek. 37:12–14)
I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. THERE WILL BE ONE KING OVER ALL OF THEM and they will never again be two nations or be divided into two kingdoms. They will no longer defile themselves with their idols and vile images or with any of their offenses, for I will save them from all their sinful backsliding, and I will cleanse them. They will be my people, and I will be their God. MY SERVANT DAVID WILL BE KING OVER THEM, AND THEY WILL ALL HAVE ONE SHEPHERD. They will follow my laws and be careful to keep my decrees. THEY WILL LIVE IN THE LAND I GAVE TO MY SERVANT JACOB, THE LAND WHERE YOUR FATHERS LIVED. They and their children and their children’s children will live there forever, and DAVID MY SERVANT WILL BE THEIR PRINCE FOREVER. I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant. (Ezek. 37:22–26)
The NIV Study Bible states the following about Ezekiel 38 and 39: “The future restoration of Israel under the reign of the house of David (ch. 37) will bring about a massive coalition of world powers to destroy God’s kingdom. But the vast host [Gog and Magog] that comes against Jerusalem will end up as dead bodies strewn over the fields of the promised land. Israel will become the cemetery of the enemy hordes (cf. ch. 37).”
Ezekiel and Jeremiah provide unique pieces of the divine puzzle and together give us a picture of what shall be for Jacob. Just as the ancient enemies of Gog and Magog foreshadowed the end-times enemy of Revelation 20, so likewise the Babylonian captivity of Jacob foreshadowed the end-times captivity of Jacob under the Antichrist. The revelation Christ gave to Paul explained how Jacob would be delivered out of his trouble in the end times: Christ shall descend from Heaven with his armies (2 Thess. 1:7–9).
Next: Paul’s second letter to the Thessalonians.
revvel
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Hello to everyone following this,
If the New Testament is divine revelation, then every prophecy given by our Lord must be in harmony with one another—from Matthew to Revelation. If the Old Testament is divine revelation, then all prophecies about “the day of the Lord” in both Testaments are in perfect harmony with one another.
I believe each Testament is divine revelation, and I have to believe that many of you reading this feel the same way.
If you have been following this, you have a fairly good idea of what my interest is: to search through the divine harmony of divine revelation given by our Lord, and see the parallel prophecies given by the Old Testament prophets.
What follows is revelation given by our Lord to John and Peter. In these two posts, I pose a number of questions… They are designed to provoke thought for all of us in the body of Christ…
If you are inspired to do so, please share your thoughts as you see fit.
You have my apologies regarding 2 Thessalonians. It will follow. I’m just not sure when.
............................................................
First,
If the good news of Christ ended with the Gospels, then why didn’t Heaven end the New Testament with the Gospel of John?
Why did Christ need to continue to give revelation to his apostles after he ascended to Heaven?
Is it possible that Christ’s revelation given to his apostles shed additional, divine light upon end-time prophecies first given in the Old Testament and the Gospels?
Why else would Christ continue to give revelation from Heaven unless he was expounding upon the good news he first gave during his earthly ministry?
This additional information includes the vision of the church in Heaven—marked at the sixth seal…
When the sixth seal opens, the sun will turn black and the moon will turn blood red, and this marks a dramatic, divine threshold: every human being on the planet will be impacted.
Shouldn’t we as Christ’s church seek to understand what Christ is revealing to us about this time?
My question is this: How can any prophecy Christ gave in the Gospels, or any prophecy in the Old Testament, contradict Christ’s own vision of the church in Heaven when the sixth seal opens (Rev. 7:9-17)?
Doesn’t it make sense that we as the body of Christ, together, should honestly research why our Lord would give us this vision?
Shouldn’t it be important for us to understand why our Lord numbered the visions he gave us in his final revelation to John?
Why else would Christ number the visions but to show us the chronological order of end-time events?
Is it possible that Christ’s final revelation pulls together all the prophets and apostles in one book, Revelation, and sets in order their prophecies that speak to “the day of the Lord”?
This is where I am coming from: Not only was Satan blind to the MYSTERY (1 Cor. 2:7, 8; Eph. 3:4–6; Col. 1:27), and blind to God’s hidden wisdom regarding “Jacob” (Jacob’s trouble), Satan was blind to God’s hidden wisdom regarding “the day of the Lord.”
This hidden wisdom was fully revealed by our glorified Lord after he ascended into Heaven. Central to this hidden wisdom is the vision Christ gave to John of the church in Heaven… in the Book of Revelation.
Look at how John begins Revelation:
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near. (Rev. 1:1-3)
According to the revelation given by our Lord…
What will happen to Earth’s population when the sixth seal opens, and the sun turns black and the moon turns blood red? . . .
Christ’s revelation about the sixth seal gives us three separate visions about three separate groups of people…
Paul revealed that Heaven sees Earth’s population as follows: “THE JEWS. . . THE GENTILES. . . THE CHURCH OF GOD” (1 Cor. 10:32 kjv).
In his revelation about the sixth seal, Christ gave three separate visions of three separate groups of people with three separate fates.
Is it possible that Christ gave three separate visions to describe what shall become of the three separate groups of people: the Jews, the Gentiles, and the church of God?
CHRIST’S REVELATION: THE SIXTH SEAL
Here is one vision given by Christ:
Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel. From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed, from the tribe of Reuben 12,000, from the tribe of Gad 12,000, from the tribe of Asher 12,000, from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000, from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000, from the tribe of Simeon 12,000, from the tribe of Levi 12,000, from the tribe of Issachar 12,000, from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000, from the tribe of Joseph 12,000, from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000. (Rev. 7:4-8)
Is Christ referring to “the Jews [israel],” “the Gentiles,” or to “the church of God”?
Israel.
Where is this group of people after the sixth opens? Heaven? Or Earth?
This is how the vision of the 144,000 is introduced:
After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: “Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” (Rev. 7:1-3)
The “sea” and the “trees” are on the Earth and so is Israel.
This is also seen when the wrath actually begins: “They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads” (Rev. 8:4). The 144,000 who have “the seal of God on their foreheads” shall be shielded from this harm.
Without question, at the time of the sixth seal, Christ’s revelation places Israel on the Earth.
Here is another vision:
After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. And they cried out in a loud voice:
“Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.”
All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying:
“Amen! Praise and glory and wisdom and thanks and honor
and power and strength be to our God for ever and ever. Amen!”
Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?” I answered, “Sir, you know.” And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore, “they are before the throne of God and serve him day and night in his temple; and he who sits on the throne will spread his tent over them. Never again will they hunger; never again will they thirst. The sun will not beat upon them, nor any scorching heat. For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd; he will lead them to springs of living water. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.” (Rev. 7:9-17)
Is Christ referring to “the Jews [israel],” “the Gentiles,” or to “the church of God”?
Which group of people washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb?
The church.
According to Christ, where is this group of people? Earth? Or Heaven?
To everyone in the body of Christ… When we stand before our Lord in Heaven, our robes will be white because of the blood of the Lamb.
Why else would Christ give us a vision of the church in Heaven after the sixth seal opens, unless the church is in Heaven after the sixth seal opens?
How can we as Christ’s church—with clear conscience before our Lord—just dismiss this vision?
What can we hope to gain by not embracing it?
How can any theologian, any minister, any Christian, any human being successfully overturn or explain away Christ’s vision of the church standing before the throne of Heaven after the sixth seal opens?
Here is another vision from the sixth seal:
Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?” (Rev. 6:15-17)
Is Christ referring to “the Jews [israel],” “the Gentiles,” or to “the church of God”?
Who are those who want to hide from Christ?
Is Christ referring to the church hiding from their own Lord?
Or is this vision describing those who reject Jesus as the Messiah: the Gentiles and the Jews?
Doesn’t it make sense that those who reject Christ would seek to hide from Christ?
This third vision is referring the Gentiles and the Jews.
According to Christ, where are they? Heaven? Or Earth?
Earth.
So, what did our Lord show us about will happen to the three groups of people when the sixth seal opens?
1.The Gentiles and the Jews will hide throughout the Earth from the Messiah that they rejected.
2.144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel will be sealed on the Earth.
3.The church of God will be standing before the throne of Heaven.
The sixth seal marks the onset of “the day of the Lord” and our Lord revealed to us what shall become of everyone when he descends in the clouds.
If the visible Christ were not descending in the clouds at the opening of the sixth seal, then why would those left on Earth say, “hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb”?
Whose face are they looking at when the sixth seal opens?
Why shouldn’t we as the body of Christ refer to the revelation already given to John?
[Christ] is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him (Rev. 1:7).
If every eye will see Christ, then wouldn’t they see his “face” too?
…What did Christ reveal to us regarding the signs of the sixth seal?
I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. (Rev. 6:12, 13)
When the sun turns black and the moon turns blood red…
God will signal us that “the day of the Lord” is upon us: we as the church will rejoice, 144,000 of Israel will be sealed, and everyone else will be in a state of fear.
What reason could we offer to Christ to justify not taking his revelation at face value? In other words, how can we as his church justify not believing his revelation as literally given?
What did Christ’s revelation to John reveal to us?
It revealed the wisdom hidden within “the day of the Lord”: a unique section of prophecy about “the day of the Lord” applied exclusively to the church—and applied exclusively to Christ’s coming for the church.
When the sun turns black and the moon turns blood red…
the onset of the day of the Lord is upon us. It is then that Christ shall descend from Heaven to transform and transport the church—not seven years later.
Without question, “the day of the Lord” is the span of time marking Heaven’s intervention. The Old Testament prophets clearly spoke of this, but it wasn’t until Christ gave revelation to the New Testament apostles about the church that the fullness of this intervention was made known. Enter: the sixth seal. There, Christ gave us information not found anywhere else in the Bible.
What should we as the body of Christ do with it?
Perhaps some of you coordinate or participate in a Bible study group…
Why not introduce the sixth seal as a topic for discussion?
I invite anyone reading this to share his or her thoughts on the sixth seal.
God bless.
revvel
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revvel
Hello again,
On the first day of the church, Peter also referred to the sun turning dark and the moon turning blood red. Why?
This is what Peter quoted from Joel:
“The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood…. And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Why did Peter quote this from Joel’s prophecy?
What is the point that Peter is making?
Who are those who call on the name of the Lord?
Why else would Peter quote Joel on the first day of the church unless it applied to church?
Could it be that through Peter, Christ revealed to the “world” Heaven’s wisdom hidden within Joel’s prophecy of “the day of the Lord”?
What follows is Joel’s prophecy about “the day of the Lord.” What is in bold is what Peter declared on Pentecost.
JOEL: The day of the Lord
The Lord thunders at the head of his army; his forces are beyond number, and mighty are those who obey his command. The day of the Lord is great; it is dreadful. Who can endure it?. . . Then you will know that I am in Israel, that I am the Lord your God, and that there is no other; never again will my people be shamed. “And afterward, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days. I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and billows of smoke. The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord. And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be deliverance, as the Lord has said, among the survivors whom the Lord calls.
“In those days and at that time, when I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem, I will gather all nations and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. There I will enter into judgment against them concerning my inheritance, my people Israel, for they scattered my people among the nations and divided up my land. . . . . Proclaim this among the nations:
Prepare for war! Rouse the warriors! Let all the fighting men draw near and attack. Beat your plowshares into swords and your pruning hooks into spears. Let the weakling say, “I am strong!” Come quickly, all you nations from every side, and assemble there. Bring down your warriors, O Lord!
“Let the nations be roused; let them advance into the Valley of Jehoshaphat, for there I will sit to judge all the nations on every side.
Swing the sickle, for the harvest is ripe. Come, trample the grapes,
for the winepress is full and the vats overflow—so great is their wickedness!” Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision! For the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision. The sun and moon will be darkened, and the stars no longer shine. THE LORD WILL ROAR FROM ZION AND THUNDER FROM JERUSALEM; THE EARTH AND THE SKY WILL TREMBLE. BUT THE LORD WILL BE A REFUGE FOR HIS PEOPLE, A STRONGHOLD FOR THE PEOPLE OF ISRAEL. “Then you will know that I, the Lord your God, dwell in Zion, my holy hill. Jerusalem will be holy; never again will foreigners invade her. (Joel 2:11, 27-32; 3:1, 2, 9-17)
Why did Peter quote what he quoted?
Could it be that Peter revealed the wisdom hidden within Joel’s prophecy: there are two separate prophecies that shall be fulfilled at two different times for two different groups of people?
The Church: The Sixth Seal: The first arrival of Christ:
“And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Seven years after Christ ascends to Heaven with the church…
Israel: The Seventh Seal: The second arrival of Christ:
“The Lord will roar from Zion and thunder from Jerusalem; the earth and the sky will tremble. But the Lord will be a refuge for his people, a stronghold for the people of Israel.”
Could it be that there is a dual prophecy contained in “the day of the Lord,” meaning, there are prophecies throughout the entire Bible about “the day of the Lord” that apply exclusively to the church and prophecies about “the day of the Lord” that apply exclusively to Israel?
Allow yourself to consider this: Satan wants the church to ignore Peter’s prophecy; Satan wants the church to read Joel’s prophecy as if Peter never said anything on Pentecost.
The Lord thunders at the head of his army; his forces are beyond number, and mighty are those who obey his command. The day of the Lord is great; it is dreadful. Who can endure it?. . . Then you will know that I am in Israel, that I am the Lord your God, and that there is no other; never again will my people be shamed. “And afterward, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days. I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and billows of smoke. The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord. And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be deliverance, as the Lord has said, among the survivors whom the Lord calls.
“In those days and at that time, when I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem, I will gather all nations and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. There I will enter into judgment against them concerning my inheritance, my people Israel, for they scattered my people among the nations and divided up my land. . . . . Proclaim this among the nations:
Prepare for war! Rouse the warriors! Let all the fighting men draw near and attack. Beat your plowshares into swords and your pruning hooks into spears. Let the weakling say, “I am strong!” Come quickly, all you nations from every side, and assemble there. Bring down your warriors, O Lord!
“Let the nations be roused; let them advance into the Valley of Jehoshaphat, for there I will sit to judge all the nations on every side.
Swing the sickle, for the harvest is ripe. Come, trample the grapes,
for the winepress is full and the vats overflow—so great is their wickedness!” Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision! For the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision. The sun and moon will be darkened, and the stars no longer shine. THE LORD WILL ROAR FROM ZION AND THUNDER FROM JERUSALEM; THE EARTH AND THE SKY WILL TREMBLE. BUT THE LORD WILL BE A REFUGE FOR HIS PEOPLE, A STRONGHOLD FOR THE PEOPLE OF ISRAEL. “Then you will know that I, the Lord your God, dwell in Zion, my holy hill. Jerusalem will be holy; never again will foreigners invade her. (Joel 2:11, 27-32; 3:1, 2, 9-17)
Why should we as the body of Christ read this prophecy the way Satan wants it read?
Why shouldn’t we read this prophecy the way Christ wants it read? On the first day of the church, Peter proclaimed God’s hidden wisdom: a unique section of Joel’s prophecy about “the day of the Lord” applied exclusively to the church—and applied exclusively to Christ’s coming for the church. It is a prophecy that once was hidden, and then was revealed.
It is a prophecy within a prophecy.
Why not proclaim to your Bible study group what Peter proclaimed on Pentecost?
The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord. And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
To everyone in the body of Christ … We call on the name of the Lord and we will be saved when the sun turns to darkness and the moon turns blood red. According to Christ’s revelation to John, it is the time of the sixth seal.
This is the hidden wisdom of God: “the day of the Lord” marks a span of time that shall witness not a single, divine event, but a single, divine event for each group that God will rescue: the church and Israel. This is the dual prophecy; this is Heaven’s hidden wisdom as revealed by Christ after he ascended into Heaven.
Why else did Peter quote Joel but to show us this?
This revelation that Christ revealed about the church on Pentecost is nowhere to be found in the Gospels. In other words, the revelation that Christ revealed about Joel’s prophecy (from Heaven) went beyond the revelation he revealed while in the Holy Land.
If anyone following this disagrees with the divine harmony Christ’s revelation given to Peter and John, then please share with me your thoughts about Peter’s prophecy…
Why did Peter quote Joel on Pentecost?
What is Peter telling the church on the first day of the church?
I honestly would like to know your thoughts regarding Peter’s prophecy on Pentecost.
God bless.
revvel
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CM
http://forums.crosswalk.com/m_1052702/mpage_1/tm.htm
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navc...Return%3A+Dogma
lol...as if.....
....................................
what if Acts 2 really happened?
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CWF
revvel
I am dissecting what you wrote. Will post soon.
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Hello CWF and everyone following this,
This post is about Christ's final revelation to John...
Is it possible that Christ’s final revelation to John ends all debate regarding the chronological sequence of events that pertain to “the day of the Lord”?
Is it possible that all pieces of the end-time prophetic puzzle given throughout the Old and New Testaments are in agreement with the Revelation framework?
Why else would Christ number the prophecies but to show us the chronological order of end-time events?
Christ’s final revelation to John marks the last book of the Bible, but it is the first place we look to understand how all pieces of the puzzle—given by both prophets and apostles—fit together. In other words, Revelation explains the relative nature of what the prophets said and what the apostles said about “the day of the Lord.” Therefore, Christ’s final revelation to us is the key that unlocks the entire Bible regarding “the day of the Lord.”
There are questions fundamental to “the day of the Lord” that we as Christ’s church cannot afford to avoid…
If Christ’s revelation to John places the church in Heaven after the sixth seal opens, then how can any prophet or apostle contradict this?
If Christ’s revelation places the church in Heaven after the sixth seal opens, then how can the church be on the Earth during the wrath of the seventh seal?
On Pentecost, Christ’s revelation said the church will be “saved.”
What does it mean that we as the church will be “saved”?
To begin, Peter’s prophecy on Pentecost applies only to those who follow the New Covenant. Christ shall descend from Heaven for the followers of the New Covenant when the sun turns black and the moon turns blood red. According to Christ’s revelation to John, it is the time of the sixth seal.
THE SIXTH SEAL: SALVATION EXCLUSIVE TO THE CHURCH
John: Rev. 6:12-14
Peter: Acts 2:20, 21: “The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord. And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
According to Christ’s revelation, what does it mean that we as the church will be “saved”?
Christ’s revelation given to us after he ascended to Heaven revealed the fullness of our salvation.
Paul: 1 Thess. 1:10; 5:9
Paul: Rom. 5:9: “Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.”
Paul: 1 Thess. 4:15-17: According to the Lord’s own word. . . [T]he Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. (1 Thess. 4:15-17)
“According to the Lord’s own word” …
Who among us in the body of Christ believes that the transformation of the church is the salvation of the church--and that it is “according to the Lord’s own word”?
The sixth seal marks the resurrection of the followers of the New Covenant. How else can all of Christ’s church stand before the throne of Heaven unless the dead in Christ were first resurrected?
After the church is gathered in the clouds/sky, what happens next?
John: Rev. 7:9-17
Look at our cry of triumph… This is our cry of salvation in Heaven when we are with our Lord:
“SALVATION BELONGS TO OUR GOD, WHO SITS ON THE THRONE, AND TO THE LAMB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!” (REV. 7:10)
That’s us.
This is what we as Christ’s church will proclaim when we stand before the throne of Heaven.
This is what Christ meant on Pentecost when he said we will be “saved.”
After Christ descends from Heaven to transform and transport the church, then comes the seventh seal. It is the time of wrath foretold by the prophets and apostles.
Salvation exclusive to Israel will not come to pass for another seven years. At the end of the seven years, the Jews who are still “standing” will be rescued from the grip of the Antichrist at the battle of Armageddon when the Lord roars from Zion.
THE SEVENTH SEAL: THE WRATH: SEVEN YEARS
Christ’s revelation to John: Rev. 8 – 18.
This is the time of “Jacob’s trouble”—not the church’s trouble. How can the church get into trouble? It’s in Heaven.
During the “wrath,” the world shall witness three and a half years of God’s prophets and then three and a half years of Satan’s prophets:
And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth. (Rev. 11:3)
The beast [the Antichrist] was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise his authority for forty-two months. . . . Then I saw another beast, coming out of the earth. He had two horns like a lamb, but he spoke like a dragon. (Rev. 13:5, 11)
This seven-year prophecy of John was first given by the prophet Daniel. Known as the seventieth “seven,” this is the final seven years of prophecy decreed for Daniel’s people, which is Israel (Dan. 9:24).
While in the Holy Land, Christ himself foretold of this future time: Matthew: 24:21-28.
From Heaven, Christ gave revelation to Paul about this time:
2 Thess. 2:3, 4, 9-12.
THE SEVENTH SEAL: SALVATION EXCLUSIVE TO ISRAEL
John: Rev. 19:11-21
Paul: 2 Thess. 1:7-9; 2:8
Jude: 14, 15
Matthew: 24:29-31
Luke: 17:22-37
Isaiah: 66:15, 16
Joel: 2:32b, 3:1-16
Zech.: 14:3-5
At the end of the seventieth “seven,” Christ shall descend from Heaven again, this time to save Israel—and Christ shall do so with his church.
The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. . . . Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints. (Rev. 19:14, 8)
We are the saints, and after being in Heaven for seven years, we shall descend from Heaven with our Lord to destroy the Antichrist and rescue Israel.
Whereas the sixth seal marks the resurrection of the followers of the New Covenant, the seventh seal marks the resurrection of the followers of Old Covenant (Dan. 12:1, 2)—as well as those martyred under the beast.
Finally…
…Christ's church is fractured along so many different lines. Imagine for a moment that we all embrace Christ’s final revelation to John: the church is in Heaven after the sixth seal opens. If we as Christ’s church believe Christ’s revelation, we could finally speak with one voice—Christ’s voice—on the subject of our own future “salvation.”
God bless.
revvel
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