In opposition to the above, there is a multitide of scriptural evidence, some of which I provided, that there will be indeed be a "coming of the Lord". To say there is "no basis" is to ignore or unnecessarily spiritualize the many scriptures that clearly say there will be a coming "event."
As far as "basis" goes, there has been no real "basis" presented here for the esoterical doctrine that "them that are asleep" in 1 Thessalonians refers to anyone but dead Christians. No logical/rational argument was made, no systematic scriptural case was built for that doctrine.
Sleep is metaphorically used for physical death many times in the Bible, yet little or no evidence was provided for why it should not be interpreted that way in 1 Thessalonians 4:13.
One must therefore wonder if the interpretation that "them that sleep" does not refer to the dead, is driven by a another larger doctrine or set of doctrines that was not really the main topic discused here.
i cant help but wonder why you would make such a series of bold and absolute statements, Goey
one can really only speak for themselves on such matters, it seems
yet here, you seem to be speaking on behalf of everyone
as if you are giving some sort of final word on this thread
i'm also wondering if it is necessary to make such statements
what does it serve to publicly imply that "one must wonder" if there are other doctrines driving an interpretation?
may i ask what larger doctrines and sets of doctrines you suspect?
and i am assuming you are speaking about not only Clay's opinion, but mine, and anyone else's who may have recognized something that they can relate to in this thread
but i will go as far as to speak for myself, and my self alone on this...
...doctrines do not drive me any more...i am free to fly
(tho it kinda sucks to try and contribute spiritual thoughts and spiritual feelings to a public forum and having to defend one's words most all the time...as if in some sort of courtroom, rather than a cyber-cafe)
I just can't help noticing that for the two of you (Clay and Todd) who are supposedly on the path to a 'spiritual nirvana' of sorts get upset and mean and (sometimes)nasty with people who disagree with your view ??!!
It's fine to post what you want, maybe just don't try so hard to convince others to hop on your rocket ship.
I concur that the 'asleep in Christ' are DEAD, that one day he is coming back for them and the ALIVE that remain at that point in time.
And Mo...I certainly don't think a lot of people would be too happy to receive the body they had seconds before they died, LOL !! Is there a chapter and verse on this.??
...mean and nasty only comes in when people deceptively reframe comments by putting words in people's mouth (things they DID NOT SAY or think), and menace them, and simply repeat the same kind of behaviour and statements over and over and over
...like you just did, and tend to do
for the record (go back and read) i have never gotten mean and nasty when someone simply disagreed
ask around dude...i have been posting here for years...and i love this place, and all the people here
i dont go around attacking people's values or beliefs...we are all going through changes
and though i may ask questions from time to time...and offer suggestions...i dont latch on or dig in
and you are simply wrong on this...and may be the last to know it
but if the moderators wont do anything about your habits...i reserve the right to get as mean and nasty as i wish and in your face if you ACT ON YOUR belief that you have some sort of right to continue to make false and deceptive statements about one's private life, one's intentions, and other stuff you simply do not know, cannot know, will not even look into, and would be dishonest to even claim to know
there is a difference between stating someone's opinion about life and death and God and the Bible...
and making personal statements about poster's intentions
do you even know the difference?
read the book of James, for God's sake
please, for the Love of God...just write from your own truth and experience about things you understand, or stop typing at all
observe, contribute, or move the heck on
in fact, i wish you would start a thread about something you are interested in
start a thread and write about something other than your negative opinions about a poster
...post something you believe in, and are interested in sharing
something that is not about starting a fight, or a point of contention
but about following the Prince of Peace, yada yada...
i cant help but wonder why you would make such a series of bold and absolute statements, Goey
one can really only speak for themselves on such matters, it seems
yet here, you seem to be speaking on behalf of everyone
as if you are giving some sort of final word on this thread
...just wondering if you noticed that
Well, let's see.
First and foremost, anything I say is my opinon only. I speak for no one but myself. That should be a given for anyone posting in these forums and should not have to be qualified. Ablsolutly no one with a similar view to mine has been in contact with me on this. Only Clay himself PT'd me (and ended his dialog with with a request for me not to "bother" him further.)
It is interesting that when I wonder what might could be driving Clay's reading of 1 Theslaonians and then get berated by you for doing so, while at the same time you also "wonder" why I would make such "bold statements". Seems rather hipoctitical of you don't you think?
The reason I wonder, is that the reading of 1 Thessalonians 4:13 regarding who "them that are asleep" are -- is so aparantly clear, (exoterically) that the only thing I can come up with is that another doctrine, belief, or hermeneuctic is driving an alternate reading. Especially since Clay offered so little to support his theory. I highly doubt that Clay started in 1 Thess with a blank mind.
And why is that a big deal anyway? It was not a slam or a criticism. We all see through a filter of some kind. What makes it such a big deal when I wonder what filter someone might be looking through? To know that, if it is the case, might help in understanding the root of such an alternative reading.
Clay says that he sees "no basis" for the belief in a second coming or a resurrection event. No basis whatsoever. Which means what Todd? Try hard and think it through ... he is telling me and others that look for the return of Christ, that there is "no basis" for that belief. No basis? -- I am just totally misreading the scriptures and distorting them somehow? Seeing stuff that is not there.
Is that not bold? How then can you, Oh Holy Todd, criticise me for being bold. Is boldness bad ?
I know you are a nice guy Todd, but sometimes you disgust me with your hipocrisy.
Why shouldn't I have blocked your PMs when YOU to told me not to bother you further?
How does that make me full of ....?
I noticed that you only posted part of my PT to you out of it's context. Why didn't you post the part in front of it that shows the heart of what I was speaking of ? -- No surpise to me.
For the record, the dialog to Clay in his post of the PT, was a mirror of what he had been saying in his posts . I simply reversed his own words to him ( in private) to show how saying things like that were unproductive. Now Clay posts only a portion of the post to make it look as though that was posted in ernest. Pretty sneaky ....
Even if Todd was helping Clay see things I believe Clay saw them on his own
Look I read books that are not in the bible they help me see things more and more
I all so PM you or email you Goey because I was worry that I might of hurt your feelings
Now I say give Clay time to see things in a better light or just state your reason and move on
For it does not matter where one gets there ideals but that they are thinking while searching for truth
I believe there are many second coming of Christ for everytime he comes in our life Christ has came to earth
The last trump to me is our last breath and the next thing we see is a bright light we either go to the light which is Christ in the air or we walk into the darkness
but this is just me
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
Beloved Clay and Todd
God loves you two my dear friends
keep on reaching for the love of God and if yall do it together do it but do not worry about what others may say
After a while things will not stop you from thinking outside the box or even in a new box
most people are in the box of flesh and bone but kept moving into the box of spiritual truth were your bible is just a tool to teach others what you see
Even if Todd was helping Clay see things I believe Clay saw them on his own
Roy, I do not think and neither have I implied that Todd is the driving force behind what Clay does or does not see. That is Alan's conspiracy theory - not mine. Please don't lump me in with Alan. Alan does his thing, I do mine.
Look I read books that are not in the bible they help me see things more and more
I all so PM you or email you Goey because I was worry that I might of hurt your feelings
Roy, I got your email and appreciate it. And I want you to know that you have never hurt my feelings. I also read many things outside of the Bible. I have read nearly all of the church fathers and all of the apocrayha and pseudoapocrypha. I have found insight and value in nearly all of them. However from a "what to believe" point of view, I think some are indeed outright forgeries and heresies, and are in no way on par with other writings.
Now I say give Clay time to see things in a better light or just state your reason and move on
For it does not matter where one gets there ideals but that they are thinking while searching for truth
This is where we might disagree. I think it does matter sometimes where someone gets ideals from. Don't the scriptures warn of false doctrines and false teachers? I think it would be remiss and foolish to ignore these warnings.
I believe there are many second coming of Christ for everytime he comes in our life Christ has came to earth
The last trump to me is our last breath and the next thing we see is a bright light we either go to the light which is Christ in the air or we walk into the darkness
Roy, I have no problem with looking at things in that manner (metaphorically/esoterically ) unless it also deny's Christ's physical coming/return. Many scriptures have both an exoterical and esoterical meaning. However, I don't think one should negate or preclude the other.
Take the example I used very early in this thread. When John's deciples came to Jesus to ask if he was the one, Jesus told them to go tell John that the blind see and the lame walk. Was Jesus ONLY refering to the physically blind and the physically lame? I don't think so. I think (esoterically) that he was referrring to the spiritually blind and the spiritually lame. Now, do I then have to reject the miracles recorded in the Bible of the physical healing of the blind and lame in order to hold on to the idea that the spiritually blind and the spiritually lame were being healed as well ? -- Certainly not. --That would be what some folks call black & white or monochromatic thinking.
Clay says that he sees "no basis" for the belief in a second coming or a resurrection event. No basis whatsoever.
Goey, I never said this at all. You are not understanding what I'm saying. There is more to the coming and ressurection then I previously believed. I put it out for consideration that it can happen now while we are living here and now. And I've said this in more then one thread. That does not negate the coming after physical death in anyway but makes it bigger. John himself said "even so Lord come".
Roy, I do not think and neither have I implied that Todd is the driving force behind what Clay does or does not see. That is Alan's conspiracy theory - not mine. Please don't lump me in with Alan. Alan does his thing, I do mine.
I glad you got it and that I have never hurt your feelings
While I have read many books I seem to found some I did not understand all of what was wrote but I was able to learn from them
Yes the bible tells us about false doctrines and false teachers but I go to God for the answers and then I lay out what I believe to be the truth then I try leaving it there
because I could be wrong and they could be right I let the word of God work on their hearts because I can prove very little
Now this takes time most will not see things overnight because it takes me time to see things I am sure it takes us all time
Now I do not see a physical return of Christ but only a spiritual one "In like matter they saw him go up"
I believe Christ went up spiritually but this is me
- from The Conversation , directed by Francis Ford Coppolla
I highly encourage everyone to take a break from here for the weekend, and go rent this movie, about a spy (played by Gene Hackman) who records a conversation between a man and a woman walking through a busy plaza at noon.
What's going on in this thread plays itself out millions of times a day over the internet.
And it's not just over theology, or political views, or sports. I've seen people this past week at each others throats - on a listserve having to do with - of all things - a musical instrument!
The same thing seemingly plays itself out a million times a day.
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sirguessalot
i cant help but wonder why you would make such a series of bold and absolute statements, Goey
one can really only speak for themselves on such matters, it seems
yet here, you seem to be speaking on behalf of everyone
as if you are giving some sort of final word on this thread
...just wondering if you noticed that
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sirguessalot
i'm also wondering if it is necessary to make such statements
what does it serve to publicly imply that "one must wonder" if there are other doctrines driving an interpretation?
may i ask what larger doctrines and sets of doctrines you suspect?
and i am assuming you are speaking about not only Clay's opinion, but mine, and anyone else's who may have recognized something that they can relate to in this thread
but i will go as far as to speak for myself, and my self alone on this...
...doctrines do not drive me any more...i am free to fly
(tho it kinda sucks to try and contribute spiritual thoughts and spiritual feelings to a public forum and having to defend one's words most all the time...as if in some sort of courtroom, rather than a cyber-cafe)
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allan w.
I just can't help noticing that for the two of you (Clay and Todd) who are supposedly on the path to a 'spiritual nirvana' of sorts get upset and mean and (sometimes)nasty with people who disagree with your view ??!!
It's fine to post what you want, maybe just don't try so hard to convince others to hop on your rocket ship.
I concur that the 'asleep in Christ' are DEAD, that one day he is coming back for them and the ALIVE that remain at that point in time.
And Mo...I certainly don't think a lot of people would be too happy to receive the body they had seconds before they died, LOL !! Is there a chapter and verse on this.??
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sirguessalot
no, allan...let me be very clear on this...
...mean and nasty only comes in when people deceptively reframe comments by putting words in people's mouth (things they DID NOT SAY or think), and menace them, and simply repeat the same kind of behaviour and statements over and over and over
...like you just did, and tend to do
for the record (go back and read) i have never gotten mean and nasty when someone simply disagreed
ask around dude...i have been posting here for years...and i love this place, and all the people here
i dont go around attacking people's values or beliefs...we are all going through changes
and though i may ask questions from time to time...and offer suggestions...i dont latch on or dig in
and you are simply wrong on this...and may be the last to know it
but if the moderators wont do anything about your habits...i reserve the right to get as mean and nasty as i wish and in your face if you ACT ON YOUR belief that you have some sort of right to continue to make false and deceptive statements about one's private life, one's intentions, and other stuff you simply do not know, cannot know, will not even look into, and would be dishonest to even claim to know
there is a difference between stating someone's opinion about life and death and God and the Bible...
and making personal statements about poster's intentions
do you even know the difference?
read the book of James, for God's sake
please, for the Love of God...just write from your own truth and experience about things you understand, or stop typing at all
observe, contribute, or move the heck on
in fact, i wish you would start a thread about something you are interested in
start a thread and write about something other than your negative opinions about a poster
...post something you believe in, and are interested in sharing
something that is not about starting a fight, or a point of contention
but about following the Prince of Peace, yada yada...
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Goey
Well, let's see.
First and foremost, anything I say is my opinon only. I speak for no one but myself. That should be a given for anyone posting in these forums and should not have to be qualified. Ablsolutly no one with a similar view to mine has been in contact with me on this. Only Clay himself PT'd me (and ended his dialog with with a request for me not to "bother" him further.)
It is interesting that when I wonder what might could be driving Clay's reading of 1 Theslaonians and then get berated by you for doing so, while at the same time you also "wonder" why I would make such "bold statements". Seems rather hipoctitical of you don't you think?
The reason I wonder, is that the reading of 1 Thessalonians 4:13 regarding who "them that are asleep" are -- is so aparantly clear, (exoterically) that the only thing I can come up with is that another doctrine, belief, or hermeneuctic is driving an alternate reading. Especially since Clay offered so little to support his theory. I highly doubt that Clay started in 1 Thess with a blank mind.
And why is that a big deal anyway? It was not a slam or a criticism. We all see through a filter of some kind. What makes it such a big deal when I wonder what filter someone might be looking through? To know that, if it is the case, might help in understanding the root of such an alternative reading.
Clay says that he sees "no basis" for the belief in a second coming or a resurrection event. No basis whatsoever. Which means what Todd? Try hard and think it through ... he is telling me and others that look for the return of Christ, that there is "no basis" for that belief. No basis? -- I am just totally misreading the scriptures and distorting them somehow? Seeing stuff that is not there.
Is that not bold? How then can you, Oh Holy Todd, criticise me for being bold. Is boldness bad ?
I know you are a nice guy Todd, but sometimes you disgust me with your hipocrisy.
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CM
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CM
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Goey
Clay,
Why are you so ill-tempered and quick to anger?
Why shouldn't I have blocked your PMs when YOU to told me not to bother you further?
How does that make me full of ....?
I noticed that you only posted part of my PT to you out of it's context. Why didn't you post the part in front of it that shows the heart of what I was speaking of ? -- No surpise to me.
For the record, the dialog to Clay in his post of the PT, was a mirror of what he had been saying in his posts . I simply reversed his own words to him ( in private) to show how saying things like that were unproductive. Now Clay posts only a portion of the post to make it look as though that was posted in ernest. Pretty sneaky ....
-------------------------------------------------
You last post shows why I blocked your PM's.
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CM
I never said that. I was answering your PM.
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year2027
God first
Beloved Goey
God loves you may dear friend
Even if Todd was helping Clay see things I believe Clay saw them on his own
Look I read books that are not in the bible they help me see things more and more
I all so PM you or email you Goey because I was worry that I might of hurt your feelings
Now I say give Clay time to see things in a better light or just state your reason and move on
For it does not matter where one gets there ideals but that they are thinking while searching for truth
I believe there are many second coming of Christ for everytime he comes in our life Christ has came to earth
The last trump to me is our last breath and the next thing we see is a bright light we either go to the light which is Christ in the air or we walk into the darkness
but this is just me
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
Beloved Clay and Todd
God loves you two my dear friends
keep on reaching for the love of God and if yall do it together do it but do not worry about what others may say
After a while things will not stop you from thinking outside the box or even in a new box
most people are in the box of flesh and bone but kept moving into the box of spiritual truth were your bible is just a tool to teach others what you see
walk in love
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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CM
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CM
Please see edits. if any one is watching this as we speak. Thank you.
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CM
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Goey
Clay, why do you think I "cannot handle some of the stuff you got"? --- Feeling spiritually superior again?
Is that kinda like the 'don't cast you pearls before swine' kinda thing'?
Like I said before, such statements wreak of arrogance and a (false?) sense spiritual superiority.
It's obvious to me that "some of the stuff" you got, I absolutely do not want.
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CM
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Goey
.
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CM
means what you said don't bother me
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CM
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Goey
Roy, I do not think and neither have I implied that Todd is the driving force behind what Clay does or does not see. That is Alan's conspiracy theory - not mine. Please don't lump me in with Alan. Alan does his thing, I do mine.
Roy, I got your email and appreciate it. And I want you to know that you have never hurt my feelings. I also read many things outside of the Bible. I have read nearly all of the church fathers and all of the apocrayha and pseudoapocrypha. I have found insight and value in nearly all of them. However from a "what to believe" point of view, I think some are indeed outright forgeries and heresies, and are in no way on par with other writings.This is where we might disagree. I think it does matter sometimes where someone gets ideals from. Don't the scriptures warn of false doctrines and false teachers? I think it would be remiss and foolish to ignore these warnings.
Roy, I have no problem with looking at things in that manner (metaphorically/esoterically ) unless it also deny's Christ's physical coming/return. Many scriptures have both an exoterical and esoterical meaning. However, I don't think one should negate or preclude the other.Take the example I used very early in this thread. When John's deciples came to Jesus to ask if he was the one, Jesus told them to go tell John that the blind see and the lame walk. Was Jesus ONLY refering to the physically blind and the physically lame? I don't think so. I think (esoterically) that he was referrring to the spiritually blind and the spiritually lame. Now, do I then have to reject the miracles recorded in the Bible of the physical healing of the blind and lame in order to hold on to the idea that the spiritually blind and the spiritually lame were being healed as well ? -- Certainly not. --That would be what some folks call black & white or monochromatic thinking.
But hey Roy that is just me ...
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CM
Goey, I never said this at all. You are not understanding what I'm saying. There is more to the coming and ressurection then I previously believed. I put it out for consideration that it can happen now while we are living here and now. And I've said this in more then one thread. That does not negate the coming after physical death in anyway but makes it bigger. John himself said "even so Lord come".
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Goey
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year2027
God first
Beloved Goey
God loves you my dear friend
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Roy, I do not think and neither have I implied that Todd is the driving force behind what Clay does or does not see. That is Alan's conspiracy theory - not mine. Please don't lump me in with Alan. Alan does his thing, I do mine.
------------------------------------------------------------
sorry my mistake
I glad you got it and that I have never hurt your feelings
While I have read many books I seem to found some I did not understand all of what was wrote but I was able to learn from them
Yes the bible tells us about false doctrines and false teachers but I go to God for the answers and then I lay out what I believe to be the truth then I try leaving it there
because I could be wrong and they could be right I let the word of God work on their hearts because I can prove very little
Now this takes time most will not see things overnight because it takes me time to see things I am sure it takes us all time
Now I do not see a physical return of Christ but only a spiritual one "In like matter they saw him go up"
I believe Christ went up spiritually but this is me
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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TheInvisibleDan
"He'd kill us if he had the chance"
- from The Conversation , directed by Francis Ford Coppolla
I highly encourage everyone to take a break from here for the weekend, and go rent this movie, about a spy (played by Gene Hackman) who records a conversation between a man and a woman walking through a busy plaza at noon.
What's going on in this thread plays itself out millions of times a day over the internet.
And it's not just over theology, or political views, or sports. I've seen people this past week at each others throats - on a listserve having to do with - of all things - a musical instrument!
The same thing seemingly plays itself out a million times a day.
Go rent this movie - you'll love it.
"He'd kill us if he had the chance"
Seems plain enough statement - or is it?
Love ya all.
Danny
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