I mean anything as divisive as Pineapple on Pizza.....
"Cult of Hawaiian Pineapple Only"
"Sect for the banning of Canned Pineapple on Pizza"
Pineapple For Absolute Love classes
Is Pineapple Pizza necessary for a productive after life debates
If the Dead are not dead--do they yearn for the day they can have Pineapple Pizza?
Will the Pineapple crowd gfet to push the blasphemous Anti Pineapplers into the lake of Fire???
Just think A whole new religion based on Pineapple Pizza--We could find an old abandoned Cornfield , Ohio sounds like a good spot to look, Set up a POP (Pizza Overlord of Pineapple) and have a yearly get together call it...Pizza of the Ages
This reminds me of a friend who runs a forum. And no it's not Todd. She would be called certain things and then have to look them up to see if she was! lol! I never even heard of Mystic anything till after I started posting some things. Funny how people label some things. I seriously doubt if anyone would believe if I really told them of my experiences. And O there is some more labels for them too.
I know you Oakspear have checked into some different things eastern style. If I recollect from your previous posts a long time ago. would love to hear of it sometime.
I'm sure you have more knowledge of the mystic type deal Goey.
From studying it. I have not claimed to have more knowledge about it then you.
The experience itself is what I am interested in. And it has other names as well.
I apologize if I come off rather direct and blunt. It is merely to communicate the points that I am making.
And the questions I have and what I see as of this day and time, and I can change. Not saying anyone else can't either.
Let me start over if you will allow me too and I can learn as well.
And perhaps others could get a bettewr grasp on what this is about-this thread that is.
No Problem
13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren,
Apparently Paul wants them to know this info in more detail.
concerning them which are asleep,
From the context of Thessolonians this does not seem to speak of dead people as in the grave
What is the context of 1 Thesslaonians? It is is letter and it discusses more than one subject. It does not simply have one particular context does it?
There can be a general context and a local context within a writing such as this. There are usually contextual breaks in a writing when the subject changes. I believe that there is a contextual break at verse 13 with the conjunction "de".
that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
Having no hope is a question - what does that mean?
"Sorrow" is also a question to be considerd. What is one of the most sorrowful things that humans experience? What causes people the most grief? Have you ever lost a loved one? A Parent? -- While a person may indeed grieve for someone who is spiritually asleep, how much more would they grieve for a son or daughter that met a tragic physical death? Consider then, what if that parent believed that the dead son or daughter was gone for eternity?
Don't we have many scriptures in other places that tell us how to deal with the spiritually weak. Do any other scriptures use the term "sorrow" in regards to those persons?
"Even" means "in the same manner".
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again,
Or since-whatever- the point is to believe it.
even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
When? And to where?
We will certainly sorrow for our love ones that die. But if (since) we believe that Jesus died and was raised, we should not sorrorrow in the same manner as those who have no hope. We instead usually sorrow for our own loss. Those without hope sorrow no only for thier own loss but also for their dead love ones since they do not have within themselves that same hope.
This is not to say that these people are hopeless or going to hell. But rather that in their own hearts, not believing in the death and resurrection of Jesus, they do not have the hope of the ressurection since they know nothing of it , or don't believe it.
When is not answered specifically, where seems to be answered in verse 17 among other places.
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord,
Obviously getting this information from the Lord.
that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord
This phrase is not exactly clear to me. What would "unto the coming of the Lord" mean?
shall not prevent them which are asleep.
From every source I checked prevent is precede, although I'm not sold on the meaning as it is understood in todays language.
It is a difficult verse. The RSV reads, "For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep."
Precede/Prevent is the Greek phthasômen . Click on it. Plato uses it quite a bit on his writings. You may want to look a some of those. It is one of those words that can have several meanings. However a morphological analysis might be of some help. It is the aortist tense, subjunctive mood, and active voice.
"Unto" is the Greek eis ... Click on it also. I think "until" is probably the correct translation.
This is as far as I can go today. Gotta go dig up about 300 lbs of potatos and build a sheep pen.
Heres one thing to consider in the thing. That there is more than one thing to consider in this section of scripture and that just this section alone is addressing many things.
For once one has tasted the word and chewed it, digested it, experienced it's Hope, there would be a tendency to think that others will not experience the same thing. Thessolonians is one of the first epistles written as far as I know.
"that you sorrow not as others which have no hope"
Conflicts with...
"For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion."
From ecclesiastes. If you know what "joined to all the living means".
So for "others" to have no hope would be something that is a reality.
And the scriptures say there is hope for the living.
And the Word from the Lord is to sorrow not.
Would there be no hope for them at all?
And why would they (the others) have no hope? And sorrow?
There is still a chance for more for them.
For the believers to sorrow in this fashion would tend to lead me to think that it's not addressing death directly in this phrase. But that the sorrow of the believers is that "the others" would have been considered to have not experienced what they did in Thessolonica. And quite possibly would think that "others" would not pass from death to life as they are living-meaning before they physically die.
This is not to you directly Goey, just thinking out loud. And rambling i suppose...
If there's pizza with pineapple on it, it's not paradise
You DARE To question the teachings of our Mother of the Pizza?????
I'm not sure Asleep means Asleep in the sense we think of "Asleep" The flesh and Bones body isnt Asleep it has returned to dust. And I don't believe spirit , being of God, ever loses awareness. Isn't asleep used more in a figurative sense ?
"that you sorrow not as others which have no hope"
Conflicts with...
"For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion."
From ecclesiastes. If you know what "joined to all the living means".
I suppose it might seem to conflict, if we assume that all hope is the same. This verse should be understood within its context. To remove it from its context makes it difficult.
Any person living no matter how good or evil has hope for a better life. Has hope to rectify wrongs. Has hope to change. There is hope for the worst person alive to repent and come to God. But once dead there there is no hope for these things.
"Joined to all the living" is explained pretty well by Matthew Henry. He says:
" While there is life
there is hope. Dum spiro, spero—While I breathe, I hope.
It is the privilege of the living that they are
joined to the living,
in relation, commerce, and conversation, and, while they are so,
there is hope.
If a man’s condition be, upon any account, bad,
there is hope
it will be amended. If
the heart be full of evil, and madness be in it,
yet while there is life
there is hope
that by the grace of God there may be a blessed change wrought; but after men
go to the dead
(v. 3) it is too late then; he that is then filthy will be filthy still, for ever filthy. If men be thrown aside as useless, yet, while they are
joined to the living, there is hope
that they may yet again take root and bear fruit; he that is alive is, or may be, good for something, but he that is dead, as to this world, is not capable of being any further serviceable. Therefore a
living dog is better
than a dead lion;
the meanest beggar alive has that comfort of this world and does that service to it which the greatest prince, when he is dead, is utterly incapable of. (
In the context of the Old Testament where no one knew where the dead went yes I can understand Matthew Henry's comments. But in the cotext of now things are different.
19If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
Are you taking the word hope and then bending the scriptures to force a particular meaning upon them to fit your interpretation of 1 Thessalonians? A question not an accusation.
First where did the idea come from that those in the OT did not know where the dead went? Can you doccument that? Expound that ? Didn't the Pharisees (Jews)believe in a resurrection? What about the Essenes? Do you know who they were and what they believed?
You quoted this verse without noting where it came from or the context: It is from 1 Cor 15
19If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
Paul is explaining the resurrection. Wherever Paul went he preached the death and ressurection of Christ. Aparantly some of the Corinthinans were saying that there was no ressurection of the dead. -- "how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
Paul makes the same basic argument he makes in 1 Thessalonians. Jesus died and rose from the dead. This was seen of many witnesses. If Jesus died and rose then therefore there is a ressurection of the body.
He later states:
If in this life only we have hope in Christ , we are of all men most miserable.
In other words, if there is no ressurection, we lied, our preaching is a lie, and your faith is in vain. If there is no ressurection our hope in Christ is only for "this life", (our life on earth) as there is none afterward. We then are most miserable seeing we having no hope in a life after death.
I believe in the OT they most certainly did know where the souls of the dead went. Read Ezekiel 32 - the pit and its description.
Many times the psalmist, David and others prayed God their souls would not go down to this "pit" when they died.
Jesus talks about it in the Gospels, the place of darkness and the place of paradise, and the great gulf between them.
I believe much of what they commonly knew has been lost, especially the seriousness of this place. The whole concept of "hell", or as I like to think of it, the place without God, has been turned into a joke. No one reeaallllyyy believes it, not a sophisticated thinking, modern man. I think God is revealing it once again (read: Hell's Dominion, my Journey into Hell - on Amazon.com). There's plenty of information on this.
I like the flowery, symbolic interpretation of the Bible as much as anyone, but it seems, it also obscures the true intent of the Bible - to bring one to Christ. It can be another way of avoiding making a decision.
Sunesis, Goey, the question was where is it not what it is.
Ecclesiastes 3
16And moreover I saw under the sun the place of judgment, that wickedness was there; and the place of righteousness, that iniquity was there. 17I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work. 18I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts. 19For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. 20All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. 21Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? 22Wherefore I perceive that there is nothing better, than that a man should rejoice in his own works; for that is his portion: for who shall bring him to see what shall be after him?
Ezekial 32
1And it came to pass in the twelfth year, in the twelfth month, in the first day of the month, that the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 2Son of man, take up a lamentation for Pharaoh king of Egypt, and say unto him, Thou art like a young lion of the nations, and thou art as a whale in the seas: and thou camest forth with thy rivers, and troubledst the waters with thy feet, and fouledst their rivers. 3Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will therefore spread out my net over thee with a company of many people; and they shall bring thee up in my net. 4Then will I leave thee upon the land, I will cast thee forth upon the open field, and will cause all the fowls of the heaven to remain upon thee, and I will fill the beasts of the whole earth with thee. 5And I will lay thy flesh upon the mountains, and fill the valleys with thy height. 6I will also water with thy blood the land wherein thou swimmest, even to the mountains; and the rivers shall be full of thee. 7And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light. 8All the bright lights of heaven will I make dark over thee, and set darkness upon thy land, saith the Lord GOD. 9I will also vex the hearts of many people, when I shall bring thy destruction among the nations, into the countries which thou hast not known. 10Yea, I will make many people amazed at thee, and their kings shall be horribly afraid for thee, when I shall brandish my sword before them; and they shall tremble at every moment, every man for his own life, in the day of thy fall. 11For thus saith the Lord GOD; The sword of the king of Babylon shall come upon thee. 12By the swords of the mighty will I cause thy multitude to fall, the terrible of the nations, all of them: and they shall spoil the pomp of Egypt, and all the multitude thereof shall be destroyed. 13I will destroy also all the beasts thereof from beside the great waters; neither shall the foot of man trouble them any more, nor the hoofs of beasts trouble them. 14Then will I make their waters deep, and cause their rivers to run like oil, saith the Lord GOD. 15When I shall make the land of Egypt desolate, and the country shall be destitute of that whereof it was full, when I shall smite all them that dwell therein, then shall they know that I am the LORD. 16This is the lamentation wherewith they shall lament her: the daughters of the nations shall lament her: they shall lament for her, even for Egypt, and for all her multitude, saith the Lord GOD.
17It came to pass also in the twelfth year, in the fifteenth day of the month, that the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 18Son of man, wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit. 19Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised. 20They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes. 21The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword. 22Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword: 23Whose graves are set in the sides of the pit, and her company is round about her grave: all of them slain, fallen by the sword, which caused terror in the land of the living. 24There is Elam and all her multitude round about her grave, all of them slain, fallen by the sword, which are gone down uncircumcised into the nether parts of the earth, which caused their terror in the land of the living; yet have they borne their shame with them that go down to the pit. 25They have set her a bed in the midst of the slain with all her multitude: her graves are round about him: all of them uncircumcised, slain by the sword: though their terror was caused in the land of the living, yet have they borne their shame with them that go down to the pit: he is put in the midst of them that be slain. 26There is Meshech, Tubal, and all her multitude: her graves are round about him: all of them uncircumcised, slain by the sword, though they caused their terror in the land of the living. 27And they shall not lie with the mighty that are fallen of the uncircumcised, which are gone down to hell with their weapons of war: and they have laid their swords under their heads, but their iniquities shall be upon their bones, though they were the terror of the mighty in the land of the living. 28Yea, thou shalt be broken in the midst of the uncircumcised, and shalt lie with them that are slain with the sword. 29There is Edom, her kings, and all her princes, which with their might are laid by them that were slain by the sword: they shall lie with the uncircumcised, and with them that go down to the pit. 30There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit. 31Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD. 32For I have caused my terror in the land of the living: and he shall be laid in the midst of the uncircumcised with them that are slain with the sword, even Pharaoh and all his multitude, saith the Lord GOD.
I don't see the answer here, if you could show me I'd appreciate it.
Goey
Clay,
Are you taking the word hope and then bending the scriptures to force a particular meaning upon them to fit your interpretation of 1 Thessalonians? A question not an accusation
No I'm presenting information to be considered. I do not have one view of hope.
And I think people can look up the context themselves. I'm not hideing anything.
Yes there is a ressurection. Yes Old Testament people believed in it.
When is the question. And not the only question on the subject either.
I see there talk about the dead of the O.T. believers were they went
The believers waiting for the first coming of Jesus Christ the son of God to lead them from death to life
When Jesus Christ got up from being killed that very second Christ won over death and the first coming of Christ was complete
The dying for our sins were finish when he gave up soul life on the cross
Christ rose from the dead then our dead spirits past, present, or to come were healed make alive or quicken
Look we were
Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins:
You all believers past and future believers
While the O.T. believers had no remembrance or conscience
Psa 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Psa 88:5 Free among the dead, like the slain that lie in the grave, whom thou rememberest no more: and they are cut off from thy hand.
For just because the mind in the grave has no conscience that does not mean the consciences of the person has not been stored in other place because all we know that it not in the grave
but when I sleep I am not conscience
But what about the believers of O.T.
Matt 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
After Jesus Christ rose at the next monement the trump for the dead waiting for the first coming rose and show their self
Some either the bible is wrong here or they did raised
John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
Jesus Christ this before his death and that hour for the O.T. believers waiting for the first coming has come and gone but we wait for the second coming
Matt 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
Moses and Elias were dead until they got up at the first resurrection right after Christ
Did not Christ go down to hell to talk with the dead so why not Christ lead the believers up to heaven then and unbelievers stray there to repent or something
Look
Rev 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
Who are the elders? They are the believers who waited for the first coming of Christ.
A elders is a person older than you
hope this helps
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
God first
Beloved all
God loves us all
There are many "hopes"
the hope for the OT belivers and there another hope for the NT believers
Sunesis, Goey, the question was where is it not what it is.
We seem not to be on the same page Clay.-- I didn't see a question. -- You made a 'statement' that said : 'In the context of the Old Testament where no one knew where the dead went ..."
This seems to say as a matter of fact that in the OT times, "no one" knew where the dead went. I assumed that by "no one" you meant the OT Jews. However the OT contain records of Gentiles as well, so without qualification, I suppose you could have meant both Jews and Gentiles.
I then asked you where the idea came from that those in the OT did not know where the dead went. Now you seem to be asking a question ....Sorry, I am confused a bit here ....
I thought you knew they didn't know. Therefore it became a question when you wanted it clarified or some proof of some sort. I provided it.
First where did the idea come from that those in the OT did not know where the dead went? Can you doccument that? Expound that ?
It was your question. And I think there is enough clarified in this thread to float the ark.
When there is no basis that I can see for the "gathering together" or "coming of the Lord" as some future event that will happen to all at the same time. I have looked elsewhere and found things that are satisfying to me, though they lead to more questions. Our limitless God and our boundless heart. What a great combination. and perhaps One as Jesus prayed that we would be One with the Father.
And so the old and new still goes on even now, Gen to Rev in play every day.
And perhaps I'm done with this thread for a while. Others can post all they want. I may chime in later...
-----
Yes Year Death was defeated that day when Christ died and rose.
I know that all will awake to this sooner or later. And what a day that will be,
to see what has already been done. The comforter coming from God.
Hmmmmm, comfort reminds me of other verses....love it!
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year2027
God first
Beloved Goey
God loves you my dear friend
I enjoy looking at your links on Mysticism
I do not just try to be one with God but I all so try to be one with Christ
Maybe some people could call me a Mysticism writter and maybe some people might not.
After reading I got thinking about the old teaching called Trinity
Was it a Mysticism teaching that was miss understood
Look man is a Trinity
body, soul, and spirit -- all work as one person or agree as one
Look God might be called a Trinity
God the father, God the mother, and God the spirit --all work as one God or agree as one God
Look holy spirit could be call a Trinity
Holy Spirit the Giver, holy spirit the lamb, and holy spirit the gift - all work as one spirit or agree as one spirit
And maybe there more things about Trinity that we just could not see
but I am still thinking on this but I look into Mysticism things for a while
love those links
thank you
sorry about leaving the topic to a degree
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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year2027
God first
Beloved all
God loves us all
I love a pizza with Ham, pineapple, and hot pepers the hoter the better
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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dmiller
Good Lord!!! Now Pineapple on Pizza has attained doctinal status!! :lol:
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templelady
But, dmiiler, Ya knew it had too , Right???
I mean anything as divisive as Pineapple on Pizza.....
"Cult of Hawaiian Pineapple Only"
"Sect for the banning of Canned Pineapple on Pizza"
Pineapple For Absolute Love classes
Is Pineapple Pizza necessary for a productive after life debates
If the Dead are not dead--do they yearn for the day they can have Pineapple Pizza?
Will the Pineapple crowd gfet to push the blasphemous Anti Pineapplers into the lake of Fire???
Just think A whole new religion based on Pineapple Pizza--We could find an old abandoned Cornfield , Ohio sounds like a good spot to look, Set up a POP (Pizza Overlord of Pineapple) and have a yearly get together call it...Pizza of the Ages
Wonder why no one ever thought of it before.....
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CM
This reminds me of a friend who runs a forum. And no it's not Todd. She would be called certain things and then have to look them up to see if she was! lol! I never even heard of Mystic anything till after I started posting some things. Funny how people label some things. I seriously doubt if anyone would believe if I really told them of my experiences. And O there is some more labels for them too.
I know you Oakspear have checked into some different things eastern style. If I recollect from your previous posts a long time ago. would love to hear of it sometime.
We could discuss it over pizza!
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Goey
No Problem
What is the context of 1 Thesslaonians? It is is letter and it discusses more than one subject. It does not simply have one particular context does it?There can be a general context and a local context within a writing such as this. There are usually contextual breaks in a writing when the subject changes. I believe that there is a contextual break at verse 13 with the conjunction "de".
"Sorrow" is also a question to be considerd. What is one of the most sorrowful things that humans experience? What causes people the most grief? Have you ever lost a loved one? A Parent? -- While a person may indeed grieve for someone who is spiritually asleep, how much more would they grieve for a son or daughter that met a tragic physical death? Consider then, what if that parent believed that the dead son or daughter was gone for eternity?
Don't we have many scriptures in other places that tell us how to deal with the spiritually weak. Do any other scriptures use the term "sorrow" in regards to those persons?
"Even" means "in the same manner".
We will certainly sorrow for our love ones that die. But if (since) we believe that Jesus died and was raised, we should not sorrorrow in the same manner as those who have no hope. We instead usually sorrow for our own loss. Those without hope sorrow no only for thier own loss but also for their dead love ones since they do not have within themselves that same hope.This is not to say that these people are hopeless or going to hell. But rather that in their own hearts, not believing in the death and resurrection of Jesus, they do not have the hope of the ressurection since they know nothing of it , or don't believe it.
When is not answered specifically, where seems to be answered in verse 17 among other places.
It is a difficult verse. The RSV reads, "For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep."
Precede/Prevent is the Greek phthasômen . Click on it. Plato uses it quite a bit on his writings. You may want to look a some of those. It is one of those words that can have several meanings. However a morphological analysis might be of some help. It is the aortist tense, subjunctive mood, and active voice.
"Unto" is the Greek eis ... Click on it also. I think "until" is probably the correct translation.
This is as far as I can go today. Gotta go dig up about 300 lbs of potatos and build a sheep pen.
Maybe the rest later on.
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Raf
If there's pizza with pineapple on it, it's not paradise.
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CM
Heres one thing to consider in the thing. That there is more than one thing to consider in this section of scripture and that just this section alone is addressing many things.
For once one has tasted the word and chewed it, digested it, experienced it's Hope, there would be a tendency to think that others will not experience the same thing. Thessolonians is one of the first epistles written as far as I know.
"that you sorrow not as others which have no hope"
Conflicts with...
"For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion."
From ecclesiastes. If you know what "joined to all the living means".
So for "others" to have no hope would be something that is a reality.
And the scriptures say there is hope for the living.
And the Word from the Lord is to sorrow not.
Would there be no hope for them at all?
And why would they (the others) have no hope? And sorrow?
There is still a chance for more for them.
For the believers to sorrow in this fashion would tend to lead me to think that it's not addressing death directly in this phrase. But that the sorrow of the believers is that "the others" would have been considered to have not experienced what they did in Thessolonica. And quite possibly would think that "others" would not pass from death to life as they are living-meaning before they physically die.
This is not to you directly Goey, just thinking out loud. And rambling i suppose...
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year2027
God first
Beloved Clay or CM
God loves you my dear friend
Hope is something one reaches for
I have hope because I believe by reaching for truth
But if something does not reach could not they be called a person with no spiritual hope because they only believe what they see
This is what I got from your last post
Is this way a unbelieving husban can be saved by a believing wife
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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CM
thanks for your input year,
a lot of things keep coming to mind for me.
and not just this subject
"For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God"
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year2027
God first
Beloved Clay or CM
God loves you my dear friend
Yes I seem to have question after question come to my mind too
Psa 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
just because there no remembrance in the grave it does mean the dead remembrance has not moved another place
Just because Trinity did not fix fleshly does not mean it does not fix spiritually
these questions and many more keep coming some I find a answer to and some I am still searching
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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templelady
You DARE To question the teachings of our Mother of the Pizza?????
I'm not sure Asleep means Asleep in the sense we think of "Asleep" The flesh and Bones body isnt Asleep it has returned to dust. And I don't believe spirit , being of God, ever loses awareness. Isn't asleep used more in a figurative sense ?
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CM
I think so templelady, remember the guy who got a stake through his head when he was asleep. lol
Not avoiding the question but that came to my mind.
------
I think these verses offer much also
16For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
19If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
Apparently there is hope in another life too. And that no one has perished.
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CM
and perhaps more lives...
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year2027
God first
Beloved all
God loves you all
what comes to mind about the word asleep here
eyes that see not
ears that hear not
I believe Jesus Christ death and rise made all mankind a living spirit but its takes believing to wake the spirit up
but I am still thinking on this matter
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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Goey
I suppose it might seem to conflict, if we assume that all hope is the same. This verse should be understood within its context. To remove it from its context makes it difficult.
Any person living no matter how good or evil has hope for a better life. Has hope to rectify wrongs. Has hope to change. There is hope for the worst person alive to repent and come to God. But once dead there there is no hope for these things.
"Joined to all the living" is explained pretty well by Matthew Henry. He says:
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CM
In the context of the Old Testament where no one knew where the dead went yes I can understand Matthew Henry's comments. But in the cotext of now things are different.
19If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?searc...olewordsonly=no
And yet even in the old testament there is hope in God past the mortal.
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Goey
Clay,
Are you taking the word hope and then bending the scriptures to force a particular meaning upon them to fit your interpretation of 1 Thessalonians? A question not an accusation.
First where did the idea come from that those in the OT did not know where the dead went? Can you doccument that? Expound that ? Didn't the Pharisees (Jews)believe in a resurrection? What about the Essenes? Do you know who they were and what they believed?
You quoted this verse without noting where it came from or the context: It is from 1 Cor 15
Paul is explaining the resurrection. Wherever Paul went he preached the death and ressurection of Christ. Aparantly some of the Corinthinans were saying that there was no ressurection of the dead. -- "how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
Paul makes the same basic argument he makes in 1 Thessalonians. Jesus died and rose from the dead. This was seen of many witnesses. If Jesus died and rose then therefore there is a ressurection of the body.
He later states:
In other words, if there is no ressurection, we lied, our preaching is a lie, and your faith is in vain. If there is no ressurection our hope in Christ is only for "this life", (our life on earth) as there is none afterward. We then are most miserable seeing we having no hope in a life after death.
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Sunesis
I believe in the OT they most certainly did know where the souls of the dead went. Read Ezekiel 32 - the pit and its description.
Many times the psalmist, David and others prayed God their souls would not go down to this "pit" when they died.
Jesus talks about it in the Gospels, the place of darkness and the place of paradise, and the great gulf between them.
I believe much of what they commonly knew has been lost, especially the seriousness of this place. The whole concept of "hell", or as I like to think of it, the place without God, has been turned into a joke. No one reeaallllyyy believes it, not a sophisticated thinking, modern man. I think God is revealing it once again (read: Hell's Dominion, my Journey into Hell - on Amazon.com). There's plenty of information on this.
I like the flowery, symbolic interpretation of the Bible as much as anyone, but it seems, it also obscures the true intent of the Bible - to bring one to Christ. It can be another way of avoiding making a decision.
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CM
Sunesis, Goey, the question was where is it not what it is.
Ecclesiastes 3
16And moreover I saw under the sun the place of judgment, that wickedness was there; and the place of righteousness, that iniquity was there. 17I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work. 18I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts. 19For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. 20All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. 21Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? 22Wherefore I perceive that there is nothing better, than that a man should rejoice in his own works; for that is his portion: for who shall bring him to see what shall be after him?
Ezekial 32
1And it came to pass in the twelfth year, in the twelfth month, in the first day of the month, that the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 2Son of man, take up a lamentation for Pharaoh king of Egypt, and say unto him, Thou art like a young lion of the nations, and thou art as a whale in the seas: and thou camest forth with thy rivers, and troubledst the waters with thy feet, and fouledst their rivers. 3Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will therefore spread out my net over thee with a company of many people; and they shall bring thee up in my net. 4Then will I leave thee upon the land, I will cast thee forth upon the open field, and will cause all the fowls of the heaven to remain upon thee, and I will fill the beasts of the whole earth with thee. 5And I will lay thy flesh upon the mountains, and fill the valleys with thy height. 6I will also water with thy blood the land wherein thou swimmest, even to the mountains; and the rivers shall be full of thee. 7And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light. 8All the bright lights of heaven will I make dark over thee, and set darkness upon thy land, saith the Lord GOD. 9I will also vex the hearts of many people, when I shall bring thy destruction among the nations, into the countries which thou hast not known. 10Yea, I will make many people amazed at thee, and their kings shall be horribly afraid for thee, when I shall brandish my sword before them; and they shall tremble at every moment, every man for his own life, in the day of thy fall. 11For thus saith the Lord GOD; The sword of the king of Babylon shall come upon thee. 12By the swords of the mighty will I cause thy multitude to fall, the terrible of the nations, all of them: and they shall spoil the pomp of Egypt, and all the multitude thereof shall be destroyed. 13I will destroy also all the beasts thereof from beside the great waters; neither shall the foot of man trouble them any more, nor the hoofs of beasts trouble them. 14Then will I make their waters deep, and cause their rivers to run like oil, saith the Lord GOD. 15When I shall make the land of Egypt desolate, and the country shall be destitute of that whereof it was full, when I shall smite all them that dwell therein, then shall they know that I am the LORD. 16This is the lamentation wherewith they shall lament her: the daughters of the nations shall lament her: they shall lament for her, even for Egypt, and for all her multitude, saith the Lord GOD.
17It came to pass also in the twelfth year, in the fifteenth day of the month, that the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 18Son of man, wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit. 19Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised. 20They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes. 21The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword. 22Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword: 23Whose graves are set in the sides of the pit, and her company is round about her grave: all of them slain, fallen by the sword, which caused terror in the land of the living. 24There is Elam and all her multitude round about her grave, all of them slain, fallen by the sword, which are gone down uncircumcised into the nether parts of the earth, which caused their terror in the land of the living; yet have they borne their shame with them that go down to the pit. 25They have set her a bed in the midst of the slain with all her multitude: her graves are round about him: all of them uncircumcised, slain by the sword: though their terror was caused in the land of the living, yet have they borne their shame with them that go down to the pit: he is put in the midst of them that be slain. 26There is Meshech, Tubal, and all her multitude: her graves are round about him: all of them uncircumcised, slain by the sword, though they caused their terror in the land of the living. 27And they shall not lie with the mighty that are fallen of the uncircumcised, which are gone down to hell with their weapons of war: and they have laid their swords under their heads, but their iniquities shall be upon their bones, though they were the terror of the mighty in the land of the living. 28Yea, thou shalt be broken in the midst of the uncircumcised, and shalt lie with them that are slain with the sword. 29There is Edom, her kings, and all her princes, which with their might are laid by them that were slain by the sword: they shall lie with the uncircumcised, and with them that go down to the pit. 30There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit. 31Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD. 32For I have caused my terror in the land of the living: and he shall be laid in the midst of the uncircumcised with them that are slain with the sword, even Pharaoh and all his multitude, saith the Lord GOD.
I don't see the answer here, if you could show me I'd appreciate it.
Goey
Clay,
Are you taking the word hope and then bending the scriptures to force a particular meaning upon them to fit your interpretation of 1 Thessalonians? A question not an accusation
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CM
btw, Danny thanks for your input especially on the first page.
And to any I didn't respond to thanks for your input.
This is presented for consideration.
The Holy Spirit will lead into the Truth. Not me. lol....
I don't want the job, it's too hard! :)
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year2027
God first
Beloved All
God loves us all my dear friends
I see there talk about the dead of the O.T. believers were they went
The believers waiting for the first coming of Jesus Christ the son of God to lead them from death to life
When Jesus Christ got up from being killed that very second Christ won over death and the first coming of Christ was complete
The dying for our sins were finish when he gave up soul life on the cross
Christ rose from the dead then our dead spirits past, present, or to come were healed make alive or quicken
Look we were
Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins:
You all believers past and future believers
While the O.T. believers had no remembrance or conscience
Psa 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Psa 88:5 Free among the dead, like the slain that lie in the grave, whom thou rememberest no more: and they are cut off from thy hand.
For just because the mind in the grave has no conscience that does not mean the consciences of the person has not been stored in other place because all we know that it not in the grave
but when I sleep I am not conscience
But what about the believers of O.T.
Matt 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
After Jesus Christ rose at the next monement the trump for the dead waiting for the first coming rose and show their self
Some either the bible is wrong here or they did raised
John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
Jesus Christ this before his death and that hour for the O.T. believers waiting for the first coming has come and gone but we wait for the second coming
Matt 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
Moses and Elias were dead until they got up at the first resurrection right after Christ
Did not Christ go down to hell to talk with the dead so why not Christ lead the believers up to heaven then and unbelievers stray there to repent or something
Look
Rev 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
Who are the elders? They are the believers who waited for the first coming of Christ.
A elders is a person older than you
hope this helps
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
God first
Beloved all
God loves us all
There are many "hopes"
the hope for the OT belivers and there another hope for the NT believers
then there hope by judgment
all may deal with Christ but there are many
one hope for the first coming
one hope for the second coming
one hope for the third coming
one hope for the Christ to destroy death
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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Goey
We seem not to be on the same page Clay.-- I didn't see a question. -- You made a 'statement' that said : 'In the context of the Old Testament where no one knew where the dead went ..."
This seems to say as a matter of fact that in the OT times, "no one" knew where the dead went. I assumed that by "no one" you meant the OT Jews. However the OT contain records of Gentiles as well, so without qualification, I suppose you could have meant both Jews and Gentiles.
I then asked you where the idea came from that those in the OT did not know where the dead went. Now you seem to be asking a question ....Sorry, I am confused a bit here ....
Maybe you can clarify ...
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CM
I thought you knew they didn't know. Therefore it became a question when you wanted it clarified or some proof of some sort. I provided it.
It was your question. And I think there is enough clarified in this thread to float the ark.
When there is no basis that I can see for the "gathering together" or "coming of the Lord" as some future event that will happen to all at the same time. I have looked elsewhere and found things that are satisfying to me, though they lead to more questions. Our limitless God and our boundless heart. What a great combination. and perhaps One as Jesus prayed that we would be One with the Father.
And so the old and new still goes on even now, Gen to Rev in play every day.
And perhaps I'm done with this thread for a while. Others can post all they want. I may chime in later...
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Yes Year Death was defeated that day when Christ died and rose.
I know that all will awake to this sooner or later. And what a day that will be,
to see what has already been done. The comforter coming from God.
Hmmmmm, comfort reminds me of other verses....love it!
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