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Thanks cman and chockfull, WW for the topic thread and opening up so many aspects to it all. PFAL's teaching on this attempts to off an answer to the question of how we came to be, how the earth and the universe we see around us came to be to the end it produced us today, and account for all the fossil records and prehistoric evidence of the past. But what if I take that question away, what if I'm not trying to have a Bible, "faith based" response to evolution or the age of the earth or prehistoric fossils or where this all came from that fits with anything else....? What if I'm just reading the Bible and taking what it says at face value? I have a record that isn't all that hard to understand, with a little study, and on face value. I don't know what it all means, by any means, but I know what I'm reading to a great extent. One thing PFAL did point out of course is that the English translations of all those ancient Hebrew and Greek scrolls and scriptures are subject to interpretation - which is what VPW did with PFAL. There is no effort to translate one language into another that doesn't require interpretation - of words, grammar, history, culture, usage and on and on. VPW posited a process that's fairly conservative, in my opinion but then I wasn't and still aren't trying to attack or defend anything. If it was recipes for Chili it might not be a big deal but sure, anything of such importance is going to be a challenging effort, to say the least. So here we are. I can read and learn today, without the artificial impetus of supporting anything other than a God who creates with purpose, loves like a Father and Who has shared Jesus Christ with me to bring me to the place I need to be in this life to live it as He would have it and I am privileged to work out. But I don't need an answer to evolution - if the Bible is to be taken at "it's Word", at face value, then I believe the best approach is to just read it, study it, do my best to learn it and from it, and let it speak for itself. It doesn't need to "fit like a hand in a glove", it doesn't need to harmonize or organize by my standards or any I put on it. It will, it does, but that was NEVER the intention of the Bible, the "Word of God". Men organize, God creates. Men wear gloves that fit, God doesn't, He is the fit. Men lie, God doesn't. The written Word is a human effort. I do believe I benefit from the efforts of men and women in the past to write and pass on what they lived and learned. I expect a level of integrity to it. I also understand that doing something by "inspiration" of God doesn't guarantee literary perfection, using an imperfect tool to build a perfect outcome. This is "Treasure in earthen vessels" at best, indeed. Any perfection or higher standards of accomplishment I see in the Bible and learn from it have to be the product of God's divine interaction over thousands of years. To be celebrated yes, taught yes. So I have no problem with people putting forth teaching and guidance with intention and passion, myself included. Peace and love and music and stuff!

Interesting topic, my response is to what the meaning of Genesis 1:1 and 2 is and considering the Way's teaching on it, going back to VPW and PFAL. VPW seemed to have accepted the interpretation of Genesis 1: 1 and 2 from Bullinger's work, who held that the Hebrew word "hayeha" translated and meant became, rather than was (the root is "to be"). So with the words tohu va boho he read it "became without form, and void"....as if to say - the earth was created one way in verse 1 - and then it became without form and was void". “form and void” - I seem to recall that phrase isn't actually 2 things but was a kind of hebrew homophone....I may not have that exactly right, but the best I understand it's meaning is that it isn't two different things - not form, and void as the english reads in KJV - but it describes a formless state and basically means no form, formless or empty - which adds a very interesting context to the record then, not that it's literal but rather simply the idea of an emptiness, formless(ness), a state of not being filled or put into order....and so on. So verses 1 and 2 could read something like "in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth, and the earth was without form". Two things are covered - the heavens (whatever that is) and the earth (whatever this is) and the earth is, at that time, without form. The bibles books cover a history of the earth and mankind and their creator, God. That's the perspective of the narrative, God and His creation, specifically the earth and mankind. A lot of other things are covered too but it would seem clear the vast detail, such as there is, deals with those things, not the whole of everything else that was or is. VPW seemed to take the Bullinger translation as a way to explain how the earth could have millions of years of history - a first heaven and earth in which God created…whatever it was He created and then between verses 1 and 2, the earth became messed up, formless, in a degraded, destroyed state. Or - 1 and 2 are a continuous thought - in the beginning God created the heaven and the earth and the earth was without form and darkness was upon the face of the deep and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. Some research notes a use of the figure of speech polysyndeton in the greek text and used throughout Genesis 1. Forms of anaphora are commonly used in any language to add impact, as a rhetorical tool. It’s still used today, a lot. So again, to me Genesis reads as more or a continuous set of statements that go through the creation record, rather than what amounts to a Grand Canyon size hole between verse 1 and 2. And of course, there’s no real detail of any kind about what that verse 1 earth would have been like, other than to offer a biblical explanation for fossils we find today from millions of years ago that seemingly contradict the record in Genesis. So it is a huge assumption that aside from a few verses that refer to what are interpreted as related events (Lucifer’s fall from “heaven”, etc) there is never any reference in the Bible at all to what that first creation would have been like. Even the idea that Adam and Eve were told to “replenish” the earth I understand to mean it to “fill” the earth, not re fill it, again. Granted, the biblical authors weren’t scientists or archaeologists but from their perspective in the human history it could seem to make more sense that there’d be reference to what would have been if there was ANY knowledge of it, passed down over time. But there isn’t, really. So while Adam and Eve wouldn’t have necessarily known what had come before, the author would have had to, to some extent if the “became void” was the correct translation…..sot to me anyway, there’s mostly a void of that making any sense after I read the rest of the bible. As a researcher VPW struggled with his linear literalist thinking. On the one hand he wanted the Bible to be taken literally where it could be, while at the same time informing any textual translation with huge amounts of figurative and historical information (“orientalisms”, figures of speech and context considerations that spanned generations, etc etc) Die hard Weirwille-ites want to make that out to be a strength but over the years it seems obvious he used it all to support his earliest convictions, not add to them or certainly not to change them. But to be perfectly honest, I don’t know for sure about Genesis 1:1 and 2 - there’s a lot of translation work that supports a bunch of conclusions. I know all of the other references that try to fit some history into the space between verses 1 and 2 aaaaaaand, I'm not so sure. Today I will say I tend towards it being a continuous creation record and 1 and 2 that moves right into 3 and forward. "YMMV". Hope this adds to the discussion.

I agree. Anyone that uses the Bible as source material could have the same question. In that sense it's more of a general theological discussion. And to my knowledge VPW took the record on face value. Tyson I can accept but so much of the world of butt-hurt anti-religious drones celebrate him as their own personal patron saint of the New Age of Science and Data. Not you Rocky, this isn't personal to you, just my reaction which I admit is, you know, biased by my own opinions. Sure, he comes off narcissistic and in love with his own voice, but he's an astrophysicist and one helluva "science communicator" with a respectable education and resume. He can bang the drum and get the word out and he's done so successfully. What he doesn't do for me is engage me in a way that pushes me to know more, to get answers for questions I have - but that's me, and this only speaks for me. So sure, that's me and I suppose to some it just indicates what a flawed person I am and how biased and bent my thinking is so how COULD I ever get answers. Right? But aside from that, that's how he strikes me. Not everything can be measured by the known measuring tools - or CAN it....? .... but if it could be then how would I ever learn if there WERE any new ways to learn, perceive, etc? Knowledge is - to me - isn't really subjective or objective, by nature. The struggle is to learn what is real, what is true and the struggle is real. To that end Tyson does encourage the scientific process and I respect that, but I also have other means by which I learn and he's not my go to guy for that. But overall, I don't think VPW had any response to that record specifically that was unusual to the norm of what most religious views would be.

He did read this record in a few teachings, I forget what the topics were, it might have been part of some Advanced Class sessions over the years, I can't quite place it. He didn't try to explain it or offer an explanation as to what effects of such an event would have been, or would be, that I recall. As far as the record goes, you're correct, if someone of that time wanted to extend the day so they could continue fighting in daylight, they had no idea the earth rotated the sun in any way that would have compared to how it was later understood, my impression of the record is that Joshua just wanted to delay night fall. As far as any literal understanding of the record the issue isn't the ask - it's the part that says, "So the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, till the nation avenged itself on b its enemies"...it seems to confirm the wrong thing. And I guess on some level of what-if, the record could have read "and then the Word of the Lord came to Joshua in a big PowerPoint screen that showed him yea all of Israel, how the earth rotated the sun and yea verily thus be it so and as it was will be, it was as Joshua had asked, and they continued to kick their enemies ass for as long as was necessary. Amen." But it didn't of course. I take it at face value having asked for some rather outrageous things myself over the years and learned that what I think is happening and what I need isn't always what's really happening and what I need. This record might tell us that as far as the people who carried this story forward and into the canon of scrip, Joshua got what he needed to win that battle and that there was an extraordinary component to it, something that they remembered, was worth retelling because it was so extraordinary.

When a brown metal folding chair seems to be the only kind that feels comfortable so you tell your local Leadership that and act like its a good thing.... You just might be brainwashed. When you can't remember if it's your night to bring the coffee, or the cookies, so you just bring both because you know you'll get reproved if you bring the wrong thing... You just might be brainwashed. When the dial in number goes dead and there's no sound but you just stare at the speaker because you want to report to Leadership what you did and tell them "that's just how faithful" you really are... You just might be brainwashed. If your local Leaders criticizes a local "believer" because they don't give a lot in abundant sharing by saying "I'm glad I don't have to try and live off what they give!" and you don't take the opportunity to tell them what an asshole they really are... You just might be brainwashed. (and yes, they all actually happened)

If you hear the joke about "millions now smoking" for the 758th time and laugh on cue... You just might be brainwashed.

Cheers, and you, you real one! I like that photo, that - if that's from 1971, it could be the Sunday Night Service when everyone was on stage during the closing evening events. Orange paint? Cool. That's interesting. Nice choice actually. My take, considering the theory of the cyclical nature of systems and the good ol' laws of inertia, The Way Nash and its current iteration is pretty much what you'd expect - more of the same. I know they probably see all sort of steps towards change and godly inspiration and even guidance - but one thing history shows us is that change happens very slowly on a large scale, even when it happens very fast. I have only to look at the Bible's history timeline and I can see that. A messiah promised, expected, then - Jesus. Something might seem huge and monumental to "us" at the time, sure but factored into a 10,000 years it's a data point. Imagine what this all seems like to an eternal perspective? Still, we are who we are in the time we are and there's no one else but us to do what only we can do. So...we do. Stuff. We were talking with some friends our age about the whole "hippy" era and how it's memory and many of the period's artifacts have endured into today's culture. I was a teenager in the "summer of love" era, got around because I was playing so much music in the SF Bay Area, but a tad young for full participation. But many of the people of that era still live the life and gather to celebrate it. (you remember Crowbar....? Saw him at a club years ago, he's all in it and doing well bless his heart, I mostly hear through other friends and source of his ongoing efforts - in a lot of ways he's one of the many "real remnants" of the Christian faith that brought us all across each other's paths so long ago) Anyhoo, hope you're doing well! I enjoy keeping up with your writing. Take care!

Hmmmm...yes. That's an interesting correlation you made there. I bet you're right. That brings up a lot of thoughts. Thanks!

My favorite R of A dinner was a WOW burger with ketchup and mustard. And a Snickers candy bar, with coffee. Two sugars. Good eats.

Yeah - that's the truth there cm. Over the years I've seen the "train wreck strategy" used a lot. People in the middle of something they know is failing will choose to just let it happen rather than try to fix it. Then they don't hold any accountability and can rebuild from what's left. It's a dangerous game to play though and he lost miserably playing it.

Thanks Rocky. Juniors initial post got me to thinking. Good question though. I don't know, no idea really. I don't mean to demean the current leadership group there but I've worked with and learned from some pretty heavy hitters in the years since leaving there. We all have, I know I'm not the only one. I really don't know that they've grown up and out enough to have the kinds of skills that they would need to do great work. Good work, good enough, maybe. Sure. But "excellence" isn't a self defined self-congratulatory metric. So much of what we struggled to do under VPW's vision was limited to his personal preferences, his ego. In the 90's they had an idiot-squad there working with Martindale and then Rivenbark, a group of survivors who screwed over anyone who challenged their positions in the food chain. Looking back it's easy to see why it failed - no one was willing to let go of their own egos long enough to let great work happen. Like the lawsuits - settling isn't exactly a claim to innocence or greatness on their parts. It was great for the Allens case, and well deserved to see Rosalie and her team of toadys run like bunnies from getting Martindale on the stand. Can you ev-en imagine what that would have been like? Is it different now? No idea. Some of the faces and names I am aware of might have a chance buuuut - and I take no pleasure in saying this - so many of them are just the ones who've manage to stay on, hold on and keep on coming back. The Way Nash is ending up as an archive and museum of it's own past, with young talent selling tickets. Good looking bunch of kids though, I will say that. It's nice to see the kids growing up. May they have long healthy lives.

Former RC here, had a very good education in the RC doctrine. This was in the 50's and 60's. Kinda dropped off the rack about 1965. I don't embrace the religion but I appreciate the community and the way they've designed their church service buildings. My take is that RC's developed their doctrines on hell, purgatory, satan and their view of heaven from a mix of early Christian records and doctrines, Jewish history, Roman philosophy and dieties and ancient Egyptian mythologies. The history of Christianity includes Roman influence, Constantine making it a legally recognized "state" religion. It all gets a long way from the Gospel records and the earliest epistles that spread the new doctrine of salvation in a faith in Christ. Me? I believe that some of all that just reflects the simple realities of what we in fact see in natural life - humans die and our bodies turn to dust. If we're buried we are in the ground, in the dark and we have no consciousness that we know of. Dead bodies exposed to the elements look deformed and misshapen and frightening. The grave, the holes in the ground, the disposal and destruction of the human remains - all that's cold, dark, terrible. Our consciousness isn't there anymore, at least as far as we know. The "me" of my life is somewhere else. Interestingly the body that my consciousness was in and knew, that hurt, got tired, was in pain or had pleasure, is gone. So any sense of "me" having any experience with it in a post-death existence wouldn't seem possible. So - what's this post Me, and what's it doing if in fact it's doing anything at all...? Good question. My impression is that the idea - idea only - of a purgatory, might be seen in the process of our lives after death and over a future time. Not in a punishment or pseudo hell way or any of that but - if we do in fact die and lose consciousness but have a future restoration of it, in "new" bodies, there will be a process of purification that occurs where by our pneuma hagion fueled consciousness will have shed all past references to these bodies and this new life consciousness will inhabit a new body. I'll spare dragging out all the verses in Corinthians and Thessalonians, etc etc that we all probably know, but I derived that from what's in the Bible. It seems to be similar to the process Jesus Christ went through - lived, died, resurrected, lived, ascended to the right hand of God (whatever that really means) If we follow suit in this timeline we have from here, it will be a process of change that will ultimately produce the New Me, in a "3rd heaven and 3rd earth". YMMV. Peace and plenty, to all.

Those do look like old photos! brining may be a typo but it kinda fits. I assume they want to invoke memories of events long past, get the old time vibe going. "Better than ever, even better than best!" The age qualification reeks of a generational cleansing. The oldest would be born in 1989. The mid to late 80's saw the first influx of evacuees, post Geer taking a dump on the whole thing in 86. Martindale "resigned" in 2000. Will there be a "Rest for the Aged" event for the elders? A "Senior Acres of Shakers" drum circle? Maybe a virtual "Don't Stop Breathing Or Believing!" cheese and whine pairing event? The original RoA was a night during the Winter Advance of 1971 that was called Rock of Ages. That summer of 1971 was the first R of A gathering. Over the next few years the event went from local fairgrounds to the Way's property in New Knoxville, "the farm". It took on a life of it's own and to a great degree became a social meet up of the Way Corps each year. Early on it became a homecoming event for WOW Ambassadors. People from other countries came as the outreach reached out. I remember the year after Emporia'd been up and running and the RoA meeting when Martindale spoke to the Corps there and crowed on and on about how he had a great realization that hey! we don't just have to get together to have FUN, not that there's anything WRONG with that but hey! he could MEET with Corps, those coming into Emporia, going out, interested in the program, DO SOME WORK, get work done MOVING THE WORD. My wife and I looked at each other and thought the same thing - uh oh, there goes that. He and his leadership clones at Emporia, then staff then all the field leadership all suddenly came to the same "realization" and it became an all day schedule of them trying to figure out reasons to meet because they didn't want everyone having FUN all day. The social side of it was something that was natural and followed the social trends of the youth culture of that era. Both coasts were developing the new formats for concerts and events, Woodstock had occurred, etc. etc. The R of A's generated out of that social atmosphere, with their own twist. VPW had his own ideas of course and he spoke of it being a time for WC to meet each other, kind of an in house Tinder hook up for singles. I am well aware of all the discussions that have exposed the sexual activities over the years but to be honest, whoever was hooping up, from VPW on down, they kept their sexual partnering pretty secret and the edges I saw or heard about weren't common knowledge. In most legal settings what they did would meet the criteria for "lies" and lying, as there was intent to deceive and knowingly defend a false set of statements or facts....but I digress. It was garden variety lying and corrupt behavior imo, redefined by whoever wanted to into whatever they wanted to justify. But as far as it being a social gathering and people of like mind meeting each other - sure. It was plenty of that. If I were them, and I'm not but if I were - and I'm not - I'd take a stepback and get the temperature of the membership, see what's going on and make room for something new and current to develop. Freshen it up. Allow for some spontaneous combustion. Set the stage, make the space, see what can be done. Inclusive, not exclusive. Everyone, at least all their tag bearing members current in their abs dues. And try doing something different than getting together in Ohio in August for God's Sake! which is part of the hottest muckiest periods in Ohio. In todays' world they will not want to play fast and loose or take the position that it's "their place" and they can do what they want. They can't. If they f it up, they'll be toast before you can say "liability". But hey - peace and love! Thanks for the memories Junior!

The 13th Tribe stuff got a lot of attention but I didn't focus on it. The Way appealed to a lot of contrarians with a mind set that entertained alternate theories to anything, who just wanted something different because it was different, who embraced looking at the "world" as one huge devilish conspiracy. In that universe a lot of stuff would get entertained just because, and if it was an easy add or kowtowed to PFAL in some way it could get air time or book store space. Grace Bliss did some good work, and her background informed her evolution into the natural food and "health" movement that rolled into the 60's and forward. She did some summer school classes and had a book of recipes that I got a lot of out of. Tom Brown Jr, the "Tracker" came through the Way in the 70's, spoke at the Ohio HQ at one point by invitation, I don't remember which year but I believe he came in as a guest and was probably paid. I remember VPW got riled up at how Brown talked about the local terrain and land and challenged his assessment of wildlife activity. I had to chuckle at the whole thing. There weren't many things that translated directly into my own activities but Brown's book was a fun read.

Low. Very low. It's been about 20 years since the original was posted. During the discussions some things have been been clarified - no "last teaching" was actually "lost", and any case made to contend that it was willfully hidden or denied access to is unproven and factually untrue - I had heard that teaching. Copies circulated later amongst some of the WC and other members, as so much of what he'd said and written did. In that teaching VPW delivered parts of the core message he'd taught many many times before. The significance at the time was clear to many, in the context of his age and how the organization he'd started was already going under and had been, due in no small part to his own decisions, actions and intent. ("the Word of God", the Logos, is however still just that and as life goes on in our lives it will continue to "live" - no one's going to quench that) Then as now Mike says he's covered more "data than most of you, and after having more time to sift through it all than most of you", with no wife or children, he's had plenty of time to immerse himself in this, his chosen interest. And he's willing to share it. Here. So - Mike, to be clear, I'm not interested and won't be getting into this cycle of interest, beyond what I've written in these last three comments. I'm not a voice of moderation that will bridge any gap between extremes, in the context of this and the related discussions. GreaseSpot Cafe has been established as a place where "the other side of the story" can be told and it's been seen that there are as many sides as there are people, and all can speak to theirs. You too. Years ago at some point and for a time, your threads were being put in the Doctrinal section, as they actually deal with a topic that works from one or more doctrinal premises - well, that should, anyway. You balked at being restricted to what I think you called the "basement" - you wanted top level views where everyone could see what you wrote and you felt it wouldn't get attention there. (I'd actually suggested you be suspended or banned for a time, but that's not my decision and you never were, that I knew of, which I accepted and moved on.) Be that as it may or was or is or will be, your opinions are allowed here and others respond. I wish you no ill. I would still suggest you take a path of establishing your own online platform and repository where you can speak your mind and message and collaborate in a public setting with those of like mind, perhaps ask one of the many people that no doubt support what you're doing to assist with the tasks of doing so if you're unable to. You've been at this for many years now, surely there are others ready to move forward with you, making the way for others to follow. Right? Peace homeez! Love y'all!