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Charity, these are profound questions but I will try to answer as succinctly as possible. Disagreements welcome: Christians are free to do this but my question is “Does God say it is okay to do this anywhere in his word?” "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling"? So far for me, becoming an atheist meant that there's not enough of the bible that: - teaches a god who always loves unconditionally and whose gifts are totally free The gifts themselves are free -- no amount of good works can earn them; but, later must be used, otherwise they basically are forfeited. The fruit from the gifts then would be conditional. Like muscles atrophy if left unused? - is authentic without man-made changes, additions and deletions Agree; no originals exist that we know of? - is not based on ancient myths and philosophers Ancient myths can be true or false -- guess it depends on one's own belief? - does not teach absolute obedience to a god or his son in order to avoid punishment (which is not the same as consequences) and hell Agree in part. Punishment is part of getting back on the right track; like our earthly parents would do. But eternal torture (the worst level in hell) is hard for me to believe that God would allow this. - consistently reliable when it comes to putting my trust in what it says. Agree

The lukewarm bit and needing to be a zealot are also found in what Jesus said in the gospels about following him. Some may say Jesus was speaking in hyperbole but when you put them all together, I think his consistent message of “all or nothing” is quite clear. And while Christians may choose to not take these verses literally, maybe because they require too much of followers, there are many who in their love for God have decided to believe them as they are written. And unfortunately, many narcissists have begun ministries/cults to attract these types of believers and go on to abuse them every which way. Most posters on GSC could say "been there, experienced that." As an atheist, I see religion (by way of the bible) as a means of controlling people. Atheists are often automatically accused of wanting to be one so they can to be free to sin. However, to make that kind of generalization is being very close minded and ignorant of the way they do live their lives. (P.S. Being a Christian does not guarantee any have stopped living in "sin".) ~~~~~~~~~ Here are the verses I mentioned above. In the gospels: - To the young man who had kept the commandments since his youth, Jesus said he also needed to sell everything he had and give it to the poor. - Jesus said, “And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life - To a man who asked to bury his father before he committed to following him, Jesus said, “Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.” - To a man who wanted to say good bye to his family before he committed to following him, Jesus said, “No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.” - (Think of Abraham being willing to literally sacrifice his son when you read this quote.) Jesus said, “Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. He that loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And he that takes not his cross, and follows after me, is not worthy of me. He that finds his life shall lose it: and he that loses his life for my sake shall find it. - When being told his mother and brethren wanted to speak with him (seemingly out of concern for him), Jesus said, “Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? [And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said,] “Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.” - Before ascending to heaven, Jesus saidto his apostles, “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you.”

Ok, the overwhelming bulk of this thread has been superb discussion about Charity’s topic. Unfortunately there has been a bit of distraction that has gone on and those have devolved into rule violations of personal attacks and name calling. Those MUST stop beginning NOW. I have chosen not to remove or edit those posts, but if more appear after this warning those will be removed in their entirety and the violator may be subject to requiring admin approval for future posts here. Remember no matter what we hold dear in our beliefs, or are affirming, searching for, or developing of those beliefs, we each are free to participate in any topic in any forum at GSC. The only restrictions are to stay within the rules and preferably have something to do with the topic as it will develop. Disagree with another as much as you want, but do not attack each other personally. You do this by expressing your own beliefs or basis, not by impugning another’s character or integrity. Use the “report” button rather than attacking back and forth. The thread is now reopened. -Modgellan

I am temporarily locking this thread to further comments while I catch up and review it

The decision to no longer be a fundamentalist like twi taught us to be has opened up the choice like yours to look to the bible for inspiration not consistency or accuracy. (Does saying this mean you think parts of the bible are not consistent or accurate?) And instead of needing to take literally that “all scripture is God inspired and is profitable,” you can see the bible as being a blend of man (writing by inspiration while seeing through a glass darkly) and God. Christians having different criteria for what they decide to believe and what they decide to disregard. It's a pick-and-choose way of defining God in their lives. That’s why I previously called this process as “Build a God” after the idea of “Build a Bear.” Christians are free to do this but my question is “Does God say it is okay to do this anywhere in his word?” So far for me, becoming an atheist meant that there's not enough of the bible that: - teaches a god who always loves unconditionally and whose gifts are totally free - is authentic without man-made changes, additions and deletions - is not based on ancient myths and philosophers - does not teach absolute obedience to a god or his son in order to avoid punishment (which is not the same as consequences) and hell - consistently reliable when it comes to putting my trust in what it says. I know there are other places to receive inspiration without the bible and all the baggage attached to it.

One thing I have tried to be careful about, and you guys can "report" me (or others) if I'm wrong, is trying to keep the "critical" posts off the main doctrinal sections (Matters of Faith and Doctrinal). Nonbelievers are just as welcome to post there, but those pages are set up to give believers space to explore without our constant interference. An unbelieving perspective would threaten to derail EVERY doctrinal discussion if not for that fact (just like Mike's thesis derails any discussion that's not already about Mike's thesis. It just does. I'm not judging). Bottom line, I think, is that we have a doctrinal section where people are talking about Genesis 1, Purgatory, the Trinity, what God thinks of you, the cry of triumph, the unforgivable sin and numerous other issues. Sometimes a non-believer's view is tangentially relevant. Usually it's not. When I participate in those threads, it's typically minimal, makes its point, and then backs away. I think ANYONE can comment on the Bible on its own terms. You don't need to be a believer. For example, I think "My God My God, why hast thou forsaken me" was, doctrinally, Jesus quoting Psalm 22 and not making up some new expression for VPW to clarify 2,000 years later. And I said that on the thread. Because it's a doctrinal thread. I also believe that never happened. I did not say that on the thread. Because it's off topic and inappropriate. So I kept that to myself because it was beside the point. And we could do that with LOTS of issues. Point is, the notion that Christians are unwelcome at GSC and that their beliefs are constantly under fire to get shouted down is a false one. It is untrue. The reason posters seem to feel that way is that they come into the atheist subforum and think that we are somehow obliged to give Christian beliefs a deference to which no other religion is entitled. This isn't even remotely complicated: The atheist subforum exists to give people like me a chance to demonstrate why I believe what I do without getting in YOUR space. It gives people like Charity a place to "come out" and share their journey. It gives people like Stayed Too Long a place to vent. All without disrupting honest discussions about doctrine. You cannot come on this forum unless you do so voluntarily, and you don't get to come here and issue blanket denunciations of people for the crime of disagreeing with you. Calling someone "arrogant" or "egotistical" is namecalling. It does not further discussion. It is not constructive criticism. It's judgmental namecalling, and if it had been handled the way it should at its first occurrence, perhaps that would have been more efficient. But then I would be accused of censorship, which happened ANYWAY. If you want to challenge my ideas, then challenge them. But YOU CHOSE TO MAKE THIS ABOUT ME by attacking ME and not by engaging in an honest discussion. When you saw you had no logical or reasonable grounds to disagree with me, you went STRAIGHT to the personal attacks. And it's not the first time. It's like you walked into an R-rated movie and were shocked that it had bad language, violence and nudity. Dude, you walked into an R-rated movie. What did you THINK you were going to find? But then you take it too far and you claim there are no PG movies anymore, no G movies. When there are. You just keep buying tickets to the R-rated ones. That's on you. You don't like it, you stay out. Go watch another movie. Go participate in another discussion. There are dozens, and the atheists on this site are pretty much leaving them alone. Why are you?

Clearly I killed skyrider. OS is perfectly welcome to post. He is not welcome to LIE. DWBH used this site to libel people. He proceeded to harass me on various social media sites in an effort to defame me before my friends, colleagues and peers. I DARE you talk to him personally about his relationship with me and why we're no longer on speaking terms. Bring a tape recorder. You called me a dog and got mad at MY vitriol? Please. GET YOURSELF Once again, people are perfectly welcome to post all sorts of views about all sorts of things. What you want is not equal treatment, but privilege. You want to be able to call us arrogant and dogs and closed-minded and biased [and I see now that you have decided to escalate the name-calling], and you want us to not respond. You and I had it out, we made our peace, and that was that. But for some reason this thread has you gobsmacked to the point where you can't disagree with Charity or with me without being personal about it, calling us names and accusing us of lacking your open-mindedness (which is not open-minded at all). This is not how people with evidence on their side behave. This is how one behaves when one has lost a debate centered on ideas but still wants to appear to have some standing. Like I said, I asked the other mods to have a look so that I am not moderating myself.

skyrider passed away last year. Carry on.

Yeah I do not concur with OS direction and agree that it is extreme. I’m happy for him in his personal life though. For me to answer the “what is left” question, and to key off the video making fun of people playing with toys, what I find useful is a child like believing mindset and looking for inspiration not consistency or accuracy as what I am reading is a blend of man and God writing. I mean writing by inspiration while seeing through a glass darkly. Or something similar. Have you ever considered that the lukewarm bit in Revelation might be in the midst of a war with extreme circumstances? I think I even read in a fictional work about Revelation an idea about every believer being martyred for confessing Jesus Christ as their Lord. I don’t find that verse to be a reason to become a zealot. How one decides which part is inspiration is a personal journey. It is to me called faith this personal journey. But if some jack@$$ wants to describe it as me being a kid playing with toys by myself and he’s ok with it then good. I’m glad he’s happy with himself being funny and condescending to others beliefs. It just makes him a jack@$$ atheist with a mic.

Are these three actors in a movie? George

WOW disagree with a man and you see the true vitriol coming out. Swapping out the “mod” hat as you see fit. Got it. This is RAFs forum. Don’t disagree with him or like many of the most prolific content providers on TWI you will be gone. DontWorryBeHappy - tremendous detail in posts, driven away by mods, you specifically Raf as nobody else has active modded much of anything here besides you in over a decade. ***(The following factual statement is added by Modgellan: DWBH was not banned from GSC by any of the Moderators no matter what you have heard. We will not further discuss the status of any poster who is no longer able to participate here)*** skyrider and OS are no longer posting - most of the content is dead. Look my point is simple. Stories about things you can’t see involve inspiration. If you read Green Eggs and Ham but don’t believe a Dr Seuss actually exists or that there is a real author writing under that pseudonym you are making up some kind of fantasy game about the real detail you can extract from it. If there is no God no Jesus Christ my savior, no entities outside of the physical realm and no devil spirits then what exactly is it that you are getting so worked up about? Yes your clever way about viruses to describe that natural knowledge and spiritual knowledge are in two different categories or dimensions isn’t really that clever. You can choose not to believe in mental concepts. Plenty of flat earthers think they have scientific backing. And calling out someone’s confirmation bias which you have and I have certainly should not produce this level of hate or vitriol. This whole logic about the epic of Gilgamesh “not holding itself to be the Word of God” all those capitalizations are straight outta fundamentalist bias whether or not you want to face it. The Word is my muse. Find another muse besides hate if you want to truly “deconvert”. And yes I’m happy to stay off this forum and direct my life in a different direction. Let me know there anger boy. Looking deeper into scripture comes from a spiritual perspective not from a lawyer cross defense perspective. Jesus did not commend the Pharisees attempts to “look deeper” into scripture to catch him in his words and accuse him. So there has to be something beyond the ego running wild that you attach to when “looking deeper”.

FYI: I did alert the other moderator(s) about the content of this thread, but I did not request any action be taken. I alerted them both to make sure we were ALL in compliance with site rules AND to make sure that I personally was held accountable to someone other than myself. Thank you.

I appreciate a reply to my post cman, but I was hoping you'd share your thoughts on the source of sin thingy I mentioned. Was it because you didn't have any or you weren't interested in sharing them?

Hi, Socks. Thank you for your post and your well wishes. I’ve always liked your twirling, dancing character. I want to understand the gist of what you are saying, so I hope you don’t mind that I condensed it down to some main points. Feel free to correct any misunderstandings I may have arrived at. Concerning your beliefs, personal events and experiences have enabled you to form your view of God, your life, your purpose and who you are. The bible also helps you with this but not necessarily in the sense of needing to commit to a prescribed set of beliefs. In addition to these, a long history of "miraculous" events have shown you a growing and very wide horizon in which there is a godly presence and what you call "forces of nature" far greater and widespread than I can imagine. One specific miraculous event became a defining moment in what you believe. There were outside forces involved which benefited your life in a special or particular way. Over the years you have come to know that your “faith” is your own as it is founded on things you have found to be true and reliable, two of which are Jesus Christ and a redemptive purpose in your life. Finally, you want to find the sources and instruction which will better make known to you a present reality of which we are all a part – a reality that helps us to best fulfill its purpose for our lives. Here are some questions I have. Are the forces of nature related to or because of God’s active presence in your life or are the two separate from each other? Do you believe it's always been God or the forces of nature (or both) behind the miraculous events over the years? Do you think Jesus Christ has proven to be true and reliable because you have remained aware of his redemptive work in your life? Is the reality you speak of a kind of benevolent relationship you have with someone or something? What I seem to be seeing is a physical and spiritual life that is free of any authoritative forces or demands but instead is the result of a genuine thankfulness and a willingness to keep God and Jesus Christ in your life which in turn has allowed you live an authentic and progressive life. I'm interested in knowing about any challenges you've had along the way with your faith and how they were resolved if you are inclined to share them. Thanks again Socks.

As if death is a bad thing Love your enemies, whether it's death or something else Fear not

I was teasing.

Well, did you say it in words that you wrote? Sorry if you don't like the word "implicit."

I get it - "the wages of sin is death" idea from Romans 6 which takes you back to the whole Adam and Eve story in Genesis 3. For those who think this was an allegory or a fictional story posing as history to teach us something (a myth), what part of it teaches how sin really entered the world that we are born with it and therefore deserving of death?

Another POV: On Julia Sweeney's 'Letting Go of God' video, she talked about her brother's death from cancer - how long it took him to die a slow, painful death. Then she shared what someone had said to her about Jesus' suffering and crucifixion in comparison and the comment was "Jesus had a bad weekend." Add to this the idea that he was only dead for 3 days and 3 nights and then God got his son back again. I've never thought of the passive-aggressive point you made above before. John 3:16 also makes this tug-on-the-heartstring point. John 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Yet, where are the books? You would think if this was actually true, there would be more historical records other than just the gospels? Yes/no?

Ah, but Yahweh allowed the satan and his princes to do it. It's an idiom. Math, see? Tailoring. Bespoke baby deer skin gloves. If I allow my toddler to walk into the street, if I sit on the curb sipping a beer while watching him get run over by a car, as if watching a football game, who is responsible? What should I say? "That'll teach these people to drive cars on the street." No! I'll tell you what killed that little boy.

The whole scheme is just odd. He pays the price. He is the price. He is the creditor to whom the debt is owed. But Satan gets the blame for killing him. And the princes of this world: demons. They did it. And if they knew the result, they would not have killed him. But that makes no sense at all.

Since I was a child I’ve wondered the same. Yahweh had to pay himself with the life of his only begotten to forgive a debt? He was the creditor, he held the note, but he paid himself? With his only begotten son’s life? Now everyone must feel guilty and submit? What passive aggression! WTF? How does this even make sense? As a father myself, I can think of no deed more wicked than murdering my own son as a means to… accomplish… … ANYTHING!!!!!!!!!

Since everyone dies everyone gets paid lol we earned the right

If that was only implicit then I am not doing my job as a communicator.

Maybe implicit in your post is that it really wasn't God who decided the wage(s) of sin was/is death, but rather it was a whole bunch of societal elders instead. What would or does that possibility say about that bunch of elders if indeed it more fairly and correctly was the old (white?) guys who came up with it?