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Ok, I read it. Am I really expected to accept this as an authoritive source? It's Wierwille's private interpretation of what he thought it meant. No more, no less.

If anyone cares to read it. https://picturesofsilver.com/Teachings/02genAbe4b.php ABRAHAM - Father of Believing Of Human Sacrifice It might need to be copied and pasted onto the internet.

I don't currently have access to my collaterals. What is the salient point(s) being made?

Digressing ends here. Next mention gets deleted without warning

A 14-second clip proves your point against atheism? The fist bump at the end says a lot. P-R-I-D-E Here are a few comments from listeners. Comments: Mohammed, as a muslim I agree with you. But you should realize that your passion sometimes can put people off from the (true) points you are raising. You should keep in mind that your ability to convince is affected by whether people find you sympathetic or not. People tend to believe people they find sympathetic. When you put up a performance like this, it in part negates your convincability. Al andalusi did a better job in this regard. Assalaamu aleykum Mohammed, just a constructive criticism: I think you should be less hasty to interject because the conversation is less constructive if you don't let them make their point. Good debate otherwise, may Allah bless you guys and guide us all come on Hijab. don't be so aggressive. let him speak. you are only allowed to be aggressive against David Wood only because we can't stand Wood.

When you get mad you twist things up. I know much more about DWBH then I have ever discussed here and have conversed with him outside here. You’ve accused him of libel now publicly here on this thread. Was this something he was charged with or convicted of? Because there are those type of things. I did not blame you for sky dying and not posting here. I’m sad he’s gone for sure as he was a fantastic brother and great person personally. One more twisted statement from you. OS is happy doing his thing I guess. He 100 percent posted on here his departure and reasons being as a Christian not having that view welcome. Whatever. I’m not a private investigator but optics matter. You didn’t seem to vehemently defend yourself to him as he was leaving like you are now. Whatever. And lastly yes I am 100 percent f ing lunatic because now I’m going to remind you of PFAL collateral volume 3 entitled Of Human Sacrifice. Read it again. Or not. It might explain a little Abraham and Isaac and might give a clue to a blend of inspiration and people thinking God told them something.

Heh!

From Rolling Stones 100 Greatest of All Times - Sons by Bob Dylan

Oh, God said to Abraham, "Kill me a son" Abe say, "Man, you must be puttin' me on" God say, "No", Abe say, "What?" God say, "You can do what you want Abe But the next time you see me comin', you better run "Well", Abe said, "Where you want this killin' done?" God said, "Out on Highway 61"

Did Abraham misunderstand? (There's probably a glove for that.) One might expect him to be admonished for not understanding, for not listening and for not obeying what Yahweh actually said and meant. But, no, he was rewarded for doing exactly as commanded. The Sacrifice of Isaac (NET) 22 Some time after these things God tested Abraham. He said to him, “Abraham!” “Here I am!” Abrahamreplied. 2 God said, “Take your son—your only son, whom you love, Isaac—and go to the land of Moriah! Offer him up there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains which I will indicate to you.” 3 Early in the morning Abraham got up and saddled his donkey. He took two of his young servants with him, along with his son Isaac. When he had cut the wood for the burnt offering, he started out for the place God had spoken to him about. 4 On the third day Abraham caught sight of the place in the distance. 5 So he said to his servants, “You two stayhere with the donkey while the boy and I go up there. We will worship and then return to you.” 6 Abraham took the wood for the burnt offering and put it on his son Isaac. Then he took the fire and the knifein his hand, and the two of them walked on together. 7 Isaac said to his father Abraham, “My father?” “What is it, my son?” he replied. “Here is the fire and the wood,” Isaac said, “but where is the lamb for the burnt offering?” 8 “God will provide for himself the lamb for the burnt offering, my son,” Abraham replied. The two of them continued on together. 9 When they came to the place God had told him about, Abraham built the altar there and arranged the woodon it. Next he tied up his son Isaac and placed him on the altar on top of the wood. 10 Then Abraham reached out his hand, took the knife, and prepared to slaughter his son. 11 But the angel of the Lord called to him fromheaven, “Abraham! Abraham!” “Here I am!” he answered. 12 “Do not harm the boy!” the angel said. “Do not do anything to him, for now I know that you fear God because you did not withhold your son, your only son, from me.” 13 Abraham looked up and saw behind him a ram caught in the bushes by its horns. So he went over and got the ram and offered it up as a burnt offering instead of his son. 14 And Abraham called the name of that place “The Lord provides.” It is said to this day, “In the mountain of the Lord provision will be made.” 15 The angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time from heaven 16 and said, “I solemnly swear by my own name, decrees the Lord, that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, 17I will indeed bless you, and I will greatly multiply your descendants so that they will be as countless as the starsin the sky or the grains of sand on the seashore. Your descendants will take possession of the strongholds of their enemies. 18 Because you have obeyed me, all the nations of the earth will pronounce blessings on one another using the name of your descendants.”

I don't think that means much to a growing number of people who prefer to subjectively read the bible for what value certain parts hold for them. The only difference with them and atheists is that atheists stopped seeing value in any of it. But that doesn't prohibit either group from discussing it.

When I let go of my belief in God and "his word," other than feeling a brief loss over there being no life after death as described in the bible, only a feeling of relief existed. I could stop trying to figure out god, and I didn't have to worry about people going through the great tribulation and other such nonsense. But letting go of God as the creator had a lot of emotions attached to it as I discovered last night. Without having anything to do with the bible, the love that I have for nature and the awe at what are bodies are capable of doing always made God seem real to me. I've decided to stop focusing on what Christians have to say about evolution and their attempts to make it fit with creation. I figure it's better to spend that time learning about evolution for myself. I have heard people who have studied how life evolved as part of their career say there is a wonder to it. So, I took out several books from the library today, none that are heavy reading to get me started.

Good point. There are tons of Bible stories that make no sense when you look at them dispassionately. Abraham is just the tip of the iceberg.

Thankfully, there are others who contribute to this post. And I figure, any time Chockfull posts, then it's open for replies.

Obviously no one is entitled to an opinion on scripture except chockfull, so you should just accept that you're wrong, biased and wearing sh!t-colored glasses because if you don't, you might kill another Christian GSer to keep him from posting. Is that how it works now? Self-appointed prophets are ok because they have faith. Non-theists are blinded by bias because they reject God

All I remember is that vpw taught Abraham "misunderstood" what God meant. If this was true, God would have known this immediately and yet he waits until the last second where Isaac sees the knife being raised above him to correct Abraham. That teaching was simply to blame Abraham and stop God from looking horrendous. The writer of Hebrews 11:17-19 did not take Genesis 22 figuratively. Hebrews 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, 18Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: 19Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure. This confirms that God did tell Abraham to kill Isaac and the mention of it in Hebrews 11 is to draw attention to Abraham's faith which is why he was willing to obey such a hideous command. (A faith, BTW, that believers are expected to follow Heb 12:1) I stand by my previous post that Gen 22 is a ridiculous story meant to teach obedience. Any relationship it has to John 3:16 only shows God is no greater than Abraham in being willing to give up their only begotten son.

Couple of points. First, I would seriously not brag about being in that company. Second, that I chased DWBH off the site is a slanderous lie. That you believe your so-called insider information WITHOUT HAVING DISCUSSED IT WITH ME speaks volumes about your fact-finding efforts. Had you one OUNCE of decency and fairness, you would have contacted me for my side of the story. You never did. You judged me on the word of a man who has chased every close friend out of his life with his increasingly unhinged behavior. But you never even ASKED for my side of the story. Why don't you ask oldiesman how DWBH treated him before I had to step in? Because that would be fair and that's the last thing you want. Has OS seen any meaningful eclipses lately? What did they mean? Before you go trusting his lying-ass word about what happened on GSC, why don't you check out his reliability? Better yet, I defy you to find a single example of me shutting OS down over an issue of faith. One. ONE. You won't be able to because it never happened. Of course you know skyrider stopped posting because he died. DIDN'T STOP YOU FROM DISHONESTLY BLAMING ME FOR HIS ABSENCE THOUGH, DID IT?

So have many of the atheists. Hell most of the moderators are gone. PAW is gone most of the time. Most of GSC did exactly what its critics said they should do: they've moved on.

Something is really wrong with you, chockfull. If you want to relitigate DWBH's departure from GSC, you are free to take it up with the site owner. But at this point after being told multiple times you continue to blame me, there is no reasoning with you. Continue to post all you want. Continue to express your evasive, criticism-immune faith all you want. I will not stop you. I didn't expect an apology from you, bur I did expect a modicum of decency. Somehow you didn't even manage THAT.

What an idiotic statement. Of course I know sky passed and that is why he no longer posts here. OS stopped due to anti Christian bias and perceived moderation in that direction whatever your story is. I can ask him if you want. Yes DWBH quit posting here over a conflict with you I’ve spoken with him outside of here. Your side of the story shows how hot the argument got. The edit to my post was unnecessary I never said he was banned. I do think I remember a temp ban but won’t stick on that point. Still in the history of this site he has posted the most relevant insider knowledge of anyone here. And you chased him off. This is fact not opinion so deal with it. I’m on up there in that list too with insider information. As is OS. And look where we are with you. The dog in a manger statement is a simile. It is describing your behavior of barking at people who believe scripture contains inspiration. You know figurative language? Oh wait you don’t know what that is. That is why you guys can’t figure out Abraham and Isaac even though TWI taught you God didn’t ask him to kill his kid. I mean Mikey would be here to point out what collateral that is in. He’s gone too. Maybe that’s my fault who knows. You are stuck on fundamentalism. This to me shows the true anti Christ nature of TWI. For a large part the cult teachings are so strong people need to depart from all of Christianity to deal with it. Deal with it however you want. This site is losing relevance and interest to me. I believe there are 2 categories of knowledge in scripture - natural reasoning knowledge and spiritual inspiration knowledge. The Bible contains many strange OT accounts. No stranger than other history books who discuss the same killing and war and atrocity. People in the OT crafted a golden calf idol after a very short time absent Moses direction. TWI leadership crafted a similar image of VPW. So peoples behavior in the NT with all the extras available supposedly from scripture don’t seem all that more advanced from the OT. Many of the remaining Christian posters have grown silent over time. Read into that what you will.

I made a deliberate decision not to reply to WordWolf's thread in doctrinal, because it's doctrinal, or here, because of the time investment that would be required to handle the material adequately. But someone somewhere should point out: the notion that Genesis correctly outlines the progress of the appearance of life on earth is... not correct. I mean, Genesis has plant life beginning before aquatic life. That is not correct. Sharks have been around longer than trees. It fails [as most would] to recognize that some animal life went from land to sea, not just sea to land. Whales evolved from land mammals. But Genesis has "the great creatures of the sea" appearing before land animals. Hard to imagine whales were not included in "great creatures of the sea." Birds. Meanwhile, descended from reptile like ancestors. So did mammals. Which means you can't say [as Genesis 1 does] that birds preceded land animals. I don't need to nitpick Genesis. But I would not subscribe to the notion that it got anything "right" about the progression of the appearance of life on earth, ESPECIALLY after taking into account that plant life showed up before the sun, moon and stars were placed in the giant dome covering the earth and keeping it from being flooded by the waters above. Would this be appropriate to post on WordWolf's thread? Maybe. But it doesn't feel very sportsmanlike.

Genesis 22 - the real story Why does God need to test a believer's faith if he knows their thoughts and what's in their heart? He had to have known what Abraham would do. (You have to ignore verse 12 though - for just like with Adam and Eve, YHWH appears to be a totally clueless God.) So, if testing was not necessary to prove Abraham's faith to God, it must have been to prove Abraham's faith to himself. Regardless of having to experience for 3 days the mental and emotional anguish from having to kill his only child, Abraham would learn just how strong his trust in God actually was. BUT, there incredibly Abraham doesn't struggle with the idea at all. Supposedly, the reason for this was because Abraham knew that God's plan was to raise Isaac from the dead! So, the rational question is why play the whole thing out? God could have said to Abraham, "Look Abe, I knew if I asked you that you would do it. Wait to go!" Then Abraham could say, "I knew, all-powerful and merciful God, that you would raise Isaac's ashes back to life. Glory be to you!" Then they could have shook hands - end of story. This whole ridiculous story was not about God and Abraham - it's a lesson to the readers. OBEY GOD NO MATTER WHAT AND YOU WILL GET YOUR FULL REWARDS AFTER YOU DIE. (See vs 16-18) One last thing, apologists will say that the purpose of the story is to foretell God sending his own only-begotten son into the world to die FOR US. My response is what's so great about God doing it when Abraham was willing to do the same thing.

Completely agree. Thank you.

let, Let, LET me repeat this... Raf wrote, "Lesson: If God tells you to kill your kid, the morally correct answer is "NO YOU BLOOMING SOCIOPATH! I WILL NOT KILL MY SON! AND IF THAT'S YOUR IDEA OF A TEST, I'D BETTER HAVE PASSED BY SAYING NO, YOU SICK THUCK!" But no, Abraham is the HERO of this story. Unless he were alive today. Someone kills their kid today and says God told them to do it, you KNOW he's psychotic, no questions asked. But it happens in the desert 5,000 years ago and you're supposed to say "What Incredible Faith!" NO!"