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You might read WordWolf’s excellent treatment of Genesis 1 in the Doctrinal forum. I may have misunderstood him or didn’t read it carefully the first time, but my takeaway is that evolution is not incompatible with creationism.

Since following the exposure of clergy abuse and sexual abuse in the International House of Prayer Kansas City, I have discovered how important the great commission is to many protestant churches, especially the evangelical ones.

I know she doesn’t believe in hell. Not sure what she thinks about heaven other than she doesn’t see it as a geographical destination. I know she believes life is eternal and death is powerless and Christ Jesus proved it. She doesn’t feel obligated to witness. Maybe she sees her life as a witness. I don't think she believes she can make anyone see what she sees. Again, she sees it as a personal journey for each and everyone. But she’s a universalist, so she believes everyone, eventually, will come to the truth. I thought Matthew was Old Testament written TO the Jews, according to TWI. How could the Great Commission apply to anyone other than the eleven disciples, who were dirty Judeans, according to TWI? There’s probably a glove for that.

Again, I find this fascinating because when I began to deconvert, I did not want to give up on the idea that the world was created by a powerful being leaving evolution as the only other option. The beauty of nature and the incredible way our bodies work and the order of the universe are all realities I marvel at - thinking that it all evolved on its own seems too incredulous. (I admit though, I have not studied the theory of evolution.) Thanks Nathan for sharing about your mother.

I missed this part. No. I don’t think she is striving to believe anything. I don’t think she sees God as being displeased. Again, for her, it goes back to Genesis chapter 1 as foundational. God saw everything that he had made. And it was very good.

I find this all so amazing. I hope you don't mind if I ask another question. Has she shared with you whether she believes in heaven or hell? Witnessing was such an obligation in twi, although I don't think it was ever called evangelism. The focus was on moving the word over the world via selling the class to people, not on God's commandment to go out and make disciples (i.e., the great commission of Matt 28:19-10). Feeling the need to get those you care for to accept Christ and be born again can be very stressful when they are not interested in doing so. Your mother seems free from the anxiety that burden brings. I never believed a Christian like your mother could ever exist, but as I walk away from more of the teachings of the Bible, I can see now how it's possible.

I admit that one of the hardest thing for me to let go of from twi is that there is only one "truth" which meant you are right and everyone else is wrong. This is why I appreciate what you wrote above about having opinions. One definition of opinion is "a judgment based on facts, an honest attempt to draw a reasonable conclusion from factual evidence." The same website defines belief as "Unlike an opinion, a belief is a conviction based on cultural or personal faith, morality, or values." If belief is a personal conviction one holds about an issue, does it then become an opinion when discussing the issue with others who think differently?

She's not at all burdened by sin. Church? Not really. I'm sure she would be considered a heretic or something like that by some here. She doesn't talk about her faith unless asked, even then, sparingly. She doesn't evangelize. She doesn't talk about or judge others’ religious beliefs, even when she disagrees. She sees it all as very personal and private. She has two best friends since childhood. She talks to them daily. Amazing love and loyalty among them. One is Methodist, the other Episcopalian.

It sounds like she's not burdened down with the issue of "sin" or striving to believe enough to please God. That would make a difference. I find it hard for her to be like this though if she goes to a church. Does she?

My mother is a devout Christian. She walks with tremendous peace, compassion, grace and power. I've witnessed her receive countless healings and revelations. She is not a proseltizer/evangelizer. She is not a fundamentalist inerrantist. She knows God isn't in the publishing business and didn't write the books of the Bible. Genesis chapter one is foundational to her theology/philosophy. Chapter 2 on, not so much.

Horrendous. Yes, indeed. I'm not a Jew. I'm not subject the wrath of the Jewish god. (Nor are they.) Nor will I be manipulated by a Pharisee like Paul that simply beleeeving what he says will save me from the horrendous acts of the god of Abram.

Do you likewise think that serpent is perfect? Or when and how is it that fallen creature excluded? And if everything is perfect... why do you suppose God gave instructions to the man to not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil? Did evil already exist at the time of this instruction... or didn't it? Can this be explained?"and that we needed a savior" Saved from what? "Do you likewise think that serpent is perfect? Or when and how is it that fallen creature excluded? And if everything is perfect... why do you suppose God gave instructions to the man to not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil? Did evil already exist at the time of this instruction... or didn't it? Can this be explained?" Good questions, but presumptive. It's a different author, a different god, a different creation myth. In the first creation story, chapter one, El saw that ALL he made was very good - ALL without exception or distinction, whichever you prefer.

Correct. Jackie Robinson's number with the Dodgers. A few days ago was Jackie Robinson Day, where ALL players wore number 42. George

Do you likewise think that serpent is perfect? Or when and how is it that fallen creature excluded? And if everything is perfect... why do you suppose God gave instructions to the man to not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil? Did evil already exist at the time of this instruction... or didn't it? Can this be explained?

I see and have no reason to think that anything written in 1John is intended for the body of Christ, which no one aside from Paul ever speaks of, or refers to. Of course God is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us... but that is no clear or certain promise that there there is anything that we can think or say that will bring it to pass. Well, I strongly disagree. I believe that it's an integral part of understanding the difference between what was given and promised to Israel, and what was been done for us in Christ. The gospel of the Kingdom was given to Israel. The gospel of grace was given to us. And there are differences between the two. Even with many signs, miracles and wonders, Israel (as a nation) failed to believe and accept that Jesus was the Christ, the son of the Living God. We, on the other hand, believe that God raised Christ from the dead... in complete and total contradiction to anything and everything that can be known by our five senses. How or why did we do that? Perhaps only because of a recognition and acceptance of the fact that all men (or most notably, our own selves) have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God... and that we needed a savior. So we, in our heart, knew and understood that it was the only way... and believed the impossible. There's a simplicity in Christ that should never be lost or complicated in or with any of the great many things that have been said or written to or for Israel...

You're right - it's the first game of hide and seek ever played.

It's just that the horrendous acts of God's wrath in the O.T. and the wrath of God that Jesus spoke of in the Gospels and revealed to John in Revelation are so different from the grace and salvation from God's wrath that Paul writes about in his epistles. However, despite what Bullinger and Wierwille taught about focusing on what is written to us, it does not change the truth that in the Bible disobeying God is a very frightening thing.

Thanks for your post Rocky. I haven't considered too deeply yet what the meaning of life is if the God of the Bible does not exist. There was usually much joy in my life from knowing a loving God and Father as well as real comfort from knowing an empathetic and strengthening Christ. But things have become so complicated lately around prayer and God's past and future wrath that my spiritual life was becoming more and more confusing and oppressive. I think Nathan's post above holds some good ideas on how to rethink living life.

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I'll take a *wild guess* George. 42

You skipped 3:9. “And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?” Really?? Lord God can’t see them?

Sure. Of course. Paul’s letters and the epistles of the apostolic fathers and I’m sure other lettres that are long gone. In some churches 1 & 2 Clement were read as scripture alongside the gospels and Paul. I’m making a point about the To/For Bullingerism. Hey, it’s a novel, systematic theology contrived in the 19th century. If it helps, go with it, but I find it to be narrow, shortsighted, and un inspired.

As Nathan sort of reflected, this is all about the Judeo-Christian creation myth. Frankly, I very much appreciate your reinterpretation of it, Charity. There's so much more knowledge and wisdom available to humans. To me, it's only natural and reasonable that people are considering legitimate philosophical questions trying to figure out the meaning of life according to dominant religions... of which Christianity is only one of the dominant ones.

Thanks for your reply. I did mention some promises written to the body of Christ in 1 John 3:21-23 and 1 John 5:14-15. Unlike the gospels, the Pauline epistles are mostly about the promises given to us because of who we are and what we have in the resurrected Christ. You see mention or examples of Eph 3:20 (also included in my post) with Peter, Stephen and Paul in the book of Acts as you noted. The “power that works in us” is the condition in this verse so one has to know what this accurately means. Concerning Philippians 4:6-7, you wrote about taking things to God and then leaving them with him and that regardless of whatever does or doesn’t subsequently come to pass in this life, we have the peace of God that passes all understanding. The “regardless part” is not part of these 2 verses, but it is something that Christians seem to add to cover for when our requests are not answered. What happens after Christ returns and for all eternity are based on the scriptures, so trusting God’s word is a criterion for these to be meaningful. I started this thread as a way to work through issues to help me know whether the Bible is truly the word of God and therefore trustworthy or if it is the work of men. There is much to consider.

Characters in this movie include Leo Durocher, Eddie Stanky, Joe Garagiola, Branch Rickey, Pee Wee Reese, and Red Barber. Robert Redford and Jack Nicholson were considered for the Rickey role. The film does not explore the main character's career with the Montreal Royals, but he was hugely popular. After leading the team to the league championship, it was noted: ..."probably the only day in history that a black man ran from a white mob that had love, not lynching, on its mind." The star is perhaps better known for a role in the MCU. The star did many of his own stunts, because he believed that his stunt double's performance was not true to the main character's actions (the actual person portrayed in the movie). It's about Jackie Robinson. IT'S A NUMBER BETWEEN 41 AND 43. George