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Hi Waxit - let's get to it: “Since you are saying i am being selective in picking only verses that show sabbath keeping , Can you then show me a scripture verse that shows 7th day sabbath is not important and should be ignored?” Waxit == == == Yes – I can do that by going back to the passage you referred to in your starting post for this thread – I’ll include some of the verses around it for context: 2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs. 3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him. 4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. 5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. 6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks. 7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself. 8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's…Romans 14: 2-8 KJV This passage is discussed in “Commentary on the New Testament: The Interpretation of St. Paul’s Epistle to the Romans” by R.C.H. Lenski, copyright 1936, Hendrickson Publishers, Inc. Edition First Printing, August 1998…Before I quote from this commentary I just wanted to give a definition of a word that Lenski uses in the book. The word is adiaphoron which is a “Noun. adiaphoron (plural adiaphora) An indifferent matter. (philosophy) A matter that is morally neutral. (theology) Something neither forbidden nor commanded by scripture.” On pages 820, 821 and 823, Lenski says the following of the passages in Romans 14: In regard to any adiaphoron the first and essential thing is that each, in his own mind, consider the Lord. Note that the double statement about days is formulated like the one about food (v.2). Even the thought is similar, save that it is stated in reverse order. One eats all food and prizes all of it equally highly, while another eats one kind of food and prizes it higher than the other kind…It is apparent where the weakness lies; it is in him who regards some food and some days beneath other food and other days… …We see no reason for refusing to assume that the distinction here touched upon refers to the Jewish Sabbath. What other day would any Roman Christian judge to be above other days? It is not difficult to see that a few jewish Christians, some of them perhaps came from the old mother church in Jerusalem, still clung to the Sabbath much as the Christians did after Pentecost. This does not imply that they insisted on this day or on any legal observance but only that they closed their shop or their store, ceased work, and kept the day holy. We see that Paul mentions this adiaphoristic practice only incidentally, only as an addition to the question regarding food. From this it is safe to conclude that only very few followed this practice and that they did it quietly and caused no friction whatever. Yet it lay on the same level as the question regarding food. It is to be noted that Paul has no admonition regarding this adiaphoron about days as he has about food in v.2. This was an adiaphoron regarding which no one looked down on another or, on the other hand, criticized another. All that Paul needs to say is that each one should be assured in his own mind… …Paul says nothing more on the question regarding days. Already in Jerusalem at the very beginning of the Christian Era the apostles selected Sunday as a day of worship. Saturday was gradually dropped. There was never a legislation regarding the whole matter. All was done in Christian liberty with an eye to the Lord. Some Jewish Christians, who felt attached to Saturday, showed that attachment for years; Rome, it seems, still had a few of these. In this spirit of liberty we still observe Sunday, not as being commanded, but as serving our need for regular public worship. Legalistic ideas are still projected into Sunday; the worst feature about them is not that they center upon Sunday but that they are legalistic evidence of a spirit that is totally foreign to Christ, to the apostles, and to the Christian Church.” End of excerpts == == == It seems pretty obvious to me – not only from simply reading the context of Romans 14 but also following the arguments in Lenski’s commentary – that keeping the Sabbath is now a morally neutral matter and is not something that the Christian is commanded to keep. Paul said as much in another epistle: Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days…Colossians 2: 16…Paul did NOT advise folks to forsake or follow such customs – but rather reminded folks of their unimportance. I would like to add something about keeping the Sabbath from “The Oxford Companion to Christian Thought” edited by Adrian Hastings, Alistair Mason and Hugh Pyper, Oxford University Press, copyright 2000, page 634: “Sabbatarianism Designates the view that divine commandment requires one day a week be set aside for strictly religious use. Within the Christian tradition, such a day includes community gathering, corporate worship, personal devotions, and charitable works. While sabbatarianism boasts a long tradition, it has remained a point of contention within the church. Two issues typically arise. The first concerns whether the OT Sabbath commandment, while clearly mandating a day of rest for ancient Israel, applies to the Christian church in the same manner. Most traditions today take the position formulated by the early church in the first two centuries, which contends that the Sabbath commandment of keeping it under OT law no longer applies in the same literal sense to Christians under the New Covenant. Through the death and Resurrection of Christ, the church has entered into a new epoch – one characterized by an ongoing, spiritual rest in Christ (Gal. 4:8-11; Col. 2:16; Heb. 3:7-11). While the keeping of Sunday, especially through celebration of the Eucharist, in some way replaced the Sabbath, Christians fulfil the Sabbath commandment more fundamentally by ‘resting’ from both sin and self-justifying works. The church thus obeys the original sabbath commandment, but in a spiritual fashion through life in Christ.” End of Excerpts == == == == == == Changing gears – I want to briefly address “the 4 crucified with Christ” – off topic from this thread but you brought it up here – “No you are right- Fred Coulter is the author of God's plan for mankind. To be honest I don't agree wholesale with eveything that Fred says Fred believes that there were only 2 cruciified with Jesus- I told him about the overwhelming evidence about there being actually 4 crucified with Christ- but he doesnt agree so I left it at that so go figure for a guy to write a book and not be able to see there are 4. Anywway that's not important but he is right on the money in regards to sabbath keeping and I have learnt a lot from him..” Waxit == == == == To be honest, I have a difficult time trusting your analytical skills regarding Fred’s teaching on keeping the Sabbath, when you say there is overwhelming evidence that there were actually four crucified with Jesus. I did challenge the validity of the 4 crucified teaching in a previous post mentioning 4 crucified - I think the teaching is a confusing hot mess of butchering scripture to gloss over the obvious discrepancies in the Gospels…that’s why I recommended the book Making Sense of the Bible which gets into great detail on how the Gospels were COMPILED (which means to put together documents, selections, or other materials from various sources). Makes a lot more sense of why there are discrepancies – and you don’t have to fabricate a ridiculous 2-additional-crucified-guys story that’s not even alluded to in the Gospels…I will say this, there's overwhelming evidence of a screwy botched up patchwork of scripture in the teaching of four crucified...many other Grease Spotters have delved into the 4-others-crucified-snow-job - here’s a couple you might want to look at: Oakspear comments on 4 crucified Raf comments on 4 crucified And there's a ton more you can look at by using the search feature at the top right of Grease Spot's web page...hey don't just stop at 4 crucified - use the search feature to check out other nuggets of fool's gold from PFAL - just punch in the topic in the search window. Needless to say, you might want to reevaluate your analytical skills - in other words - maybe you need to reconsider any “litmus-tests-for-spirituality” or criteria by which something is judged that you assume will cut the mustard. I mean that in the nicest way...after leaving a cult that continuously puts the kibosh on critical thinking - we all have a lot to work on now - those once "atrophied muscles" in our gray matter . We all have a long way to go - our critical thinking skills should always be under development - always improving - and maybe we won't figure it all out in our lifetime - but in the meantime - the fun is in the journey - yes, you're on a new and intriguing journey - what freedom we have! We get to choose our own path !!!...I choose according to what makes sense to me - remember Isaiah 1:18 “Come now, and let us reason together,” Says the LORD, “Though your sins are like scarlet, They shall be as white as snow; Though they are red like crimson, They shall be as wool." God gave us the powers of reason for a reason! ...and so many things in my belief system are in a state of flux...and I'm okay with that...I'm occasionally reevaluating some things anyway - I do practice what I preach ..and so it goes - learning from others and figuring out some things myself...Grease Spot is a great place for helping to develop critical thinking skills. That’s all for now. Happy Easter He is risen