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Very interesting thread and great input by all. I’ve looked at this thread a number of times…I’m a little slow to grasp ideas like this. As far as dealing with my cult-damaged-faith (or whatever you want to call picking up the pieces after leaving TWI)- the point Steve made about vp rejecting the ontological and economic Trinity is a big deal to me now. As far as my current beliefs – I often state on Grease Spot that I’m Trinitarian now – but it’s not that I’ve become a staunch supporter of the layman’s Trinity. Maybe it’s a part of me that wants to rebel from TWI dogma and start embracing a comprehensive view on everything theological. By saying “comprehensive” I don’t mean knowing it all – maybe “comprehensive” wasn’t the right word – I want to take in all the biblical data – even the thorny verses…the inexplicable verses…try to grasp what I can here and there as I continue on my Christian journey. I realize some things are beyond human understanding – and I designate those things as a matter of faith. While reading this thread I kept thinking about one of vp’s chapter titles Are You Limiting God? Although the way vp answers that question is more along the lines of a marketing gimmick - like so many other health and wealth gospel preachers out there. If the only way we see God is as a genie in a bottle and what we can get from him – how is that not limiting God? Great analysis by Waysider and WordWolf of the great principle – which typifies vp’s preference for making everything fit in a neat and supposedly logical package. And to be honest – I think I still have a very limited idea of God – because I too have a tendency of trying to reduce God down to something that is bite size for my pea brain to take in….but anyway, this post must go on… Today after reading this thread again I looked up the terms ontological and economic Trinity and found something that may be noteworthy for this thread by R.C. Sproul: "Ontology is the study of being. When we talk about the ontological Trinity, or as some theologians term it, the “immanent Trinity,” we are referring to the Trinity in itself, without regard to God’s works of creation and redemption. In the Trinity, there are three persons —the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit—who together are one being. The ontological structure of the Trinity is a unity (Deut. 6:4). When we speak of the economic Trinity, on the other hand, we are dealing with the activity of God and the roles of the three persons with regard to creation and redemption. In terms of the ontological Trinity, the three persons are distinguished by what the Westminster Larger Catechism calls “their personal properties” (WLC 9). It then goes on to define these personal properties: “It is proper to the Father to beget the Son, and to the Son to be begotten of the Father, and to the Holy Ghost to proceed from the Father and the Son from all eternity” (WLC 10). With regard to the economic Trinity, we distinguish among the three persons of the Godhead in terms of their roles in creation and redemption. It is the Father who sends the Son into the world for our redemption. It is the Son who acquires our redemption for us. It is the Spirit who applies that redemption to us. We do not have three gods. We have one God in three persons, and the three persons are distinguished in the economy of redemption in terms of what They do..." RC Sproul - ontological & economic Trinity I’m not saying that I get all this – but threads like this are inspiring. I’m willing to try a new way of not limiting God and to try not being so restrictive in my thinking of how God works things out. I think understanding the concepts of ontological Trinity and economic Trinity are important –expanding our awareness of God should have some positive practical impact in living the Christian life. I think it would touch so many aspects - - like worship…prayer… service to our Lord / service to others… recovery from cult damage.